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 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

It's especially irritating when you consider that GW sells a complete experience with Shadespire, including completely new and flavorful models. And by all accounts that game is a hit. I've seen it played more than 8th ed. If only the mainline skirmishes could be considered complete and competently made.

Shadespire is constant releases that you need to buy for the cards even if you don't want that faction's models. It's more of a DLC model than KT is...

Also this is not true. You don't "need" to buy the various starters for the cards. I didn't pick up three of the Shadespire starters(Skaven, Fyreslayers, and Orruks) and was still able to do fairly well in organized play.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

It's especially irritating when you consider that GW sells a complete experience with Shadespire, including completely new and flavorful models. And by all accounts that game is a hit. I've seen it played more than 8th ed. If only the mainline skirmishes could be considered complete and competently made.

Shadespire is constant releases that you need to buy for the cards even if you don't want that faction's models. It's more of a DLC model than KT is...

Also this is not true. You don't "need" to buy the various starters for the cards. I didn't pick up three of the Shadespire starters(Skaven, Fyreslayers, and Orruks) and was still able to do fairly well in organized play.

Also, the cards are listed, along with their rules, according to set on the W:U site, so you can proxy and figure out what suits your play style before picking up the appropriate set(s) and/or individual cards from the secondary market.

tneva82 wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

The cynical part me wants to say that GW has cleared out all the extra terrain pieces they had laying about. Now that is gone, they might finish putting out the rest of the faction starters. Hopefully, GW decides to make the faction starters a more complete purchase where the customer can field a full 100 point teams with decent amount of options. Bonus points if they include sprues from two different unit types where possible (i.e. CMS/Cultists, Marines/Scouts).

What starter that is though? Sounds comple sets. Like having 2k 40k armies as starter sets

Look into Bolt Action starters sets. Back when I played Bolt Action, their starters had enough to make a 1000 point army. That army didn't have a lot of options (but still had options), but you could do it. Heck, from a certain point of view, GW nearly does offer 2000 point 40K starter sets with their larger bundles (example: Necron Dynasty Battalion Detachment ). These just can't be marketed as starters because few customers are going to see that $400 plus price and think that is good price to entry. Made even worst that likely still isn't enough to play a 2000 point game.

More to the point, Skirmish games like Kill Team often feature starters that have enough models in their starter sets to play the game at the intended level. There might have been a couple of factions in Deadzone 1st edition starters that didn't reach 100 points, but most of them actually were more than enough allowing some customization too like. Sure, it was only a model, maybe two, but again that is on top of already creating a full strike force. I expect most skirmish games starter boxes to feature enough models to play the game at the intended level with later purchases to customize it.

We aren't talking about huge armies here like 40k. To compare the two is to make an incredibly disingenuous argument. Kill Team rosters can't be more than 20 models. That is two troop boxes for many factions fills that roster. But if GW thinks a customer is going to spend $60 on a box of Immortals and piece of Wall of Martyrs terrain with a few cards thrown in compared to the $33 price for just the Immortals, they should probably expect some boxes to sit on the shelf. However, they put together a set of Immortals with a set of Warriors with those cards at $70 and the starter is basically the usual GW bundle and has enough for a Kill Team player to field a full team with several options.

One could argue that such starters doesn't have the player buying more for the faction as they have everything. That is an issue (your option if that is a feature or bug) of Kill Team itself. I contend, it is not like GW really had to create anything more than they did now. But creating a starter that was a more complete set seems like better customer service well making it a little easier to know how popular Kill Team is via players picking up these hypothetical Kill Team bundles starter sets.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

It's especially irritating when you consider that GW sells a complete experience with Shadespire, including completely new and flavorful models. And by all accounts that game is a hit. I've seen it played more than 8th ed. If only the mainline skirmishes could be considered complete and competently made.

Shadespire is constant releases that you need to buy for the cards even if you don't want that faction's models. It's more of a DLC model than KT is...

Also this is not true. You don't "need" to buy the various starters for the cards. I didn't pick up three of the Shadespire starters(Skaven, Fyreslayers, and Orruks) and was still able to do fairly well in organized play.

Also, the cards are listed, along with their rules, according to set on the W:U site, so you can proxy and figure out what suits your play style before picking up the appropriate set(s) and/or individual cards from the secondary market.

You still need to go out and buy models that you didn't even want to get the cards (or be buying stuff secondary). It's way more DLC model than KT is where the only things you need to buy outside of the core book to have everything for your faction are a faction starter and, possibly, the commander set plus a commander box

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

It's especially irritating when you consider that GW sells a complete experience with Shadespire, including completely new and flavorful models. And by all accounts that game is a hit. I've seen it played more than 8th ed. If only the mainline skirmishes could be considered complete and competently made.

Shadespire is constant releases that you need to buy for the cards even if you don't want that faction's models. It's more of a DLC model than KT is...

Also this is not true. You don't "need" to buy the various starters for the cards. I didn't pick up three of the Shadespire starters(Skaven, Fyreslayers, and Orruks) and was still able to do fairly well in organized play.

Also, the cards are listed, along with their rules, according to set on the W:U site, so you can proxy and figure out what suits your play style before picking up the appropriate set(s) and/or individual cards from the secondary market.

You still need to go out and buy models that you didn't even want to get the cards (or be buying stuff secondary). It's way more DLC model than KT is where the only things you need to buy outside of the core book to have everything for your faction are a faction starter and, possibly, the commander set plus a commander box

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I never felt like I was getting "DLC'd" by Underworlds. The few times I thought about going for specific cards from sets? I realized I could resell the models easily.

The biggest issue early on with Underworlds was the lack of access to boards. That's been solved, thankfully.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

You still need to go out and buy models that you didn't even want to get the cards (or be buying stuff secondary). It's way more DLC model than KT is where the only things you need to buy outside of the core book to have everything for your faction are a faction starter and, possibly, the commander set plus a commander box

Technically, you don't even need to but the faction starter. Although, they do contain some additional tactics not in the Kill Team rule book I believe. All you really need is the Kill Team rule book and 100 points of troop models (for the most part). You don't have the tokens. Which most of the time, I don't bother with anyways expect to maybe Ready and Advance with larger teams where it is easy to forget who did what.

The Faction Starters are one of the more disappointing aspects of Kill Team to me. I want to pick them up to start new Kill Team factions so I can have the faction's tokens and cards. However, I don't really care for half the terrain (Wall of Martyrs or Deathworld Forest). And the markup compared to troop models supplied compared to the regular box is too high to justify the purchase. Add to the fact that most faction starters still require an additional box of models to get to a 100 points makes it an easy pass to just get the model sets I want instead of bothering with the Kill Team faction starters.

Also, I don't want to support the X-Wing miniatures game only buy the box to get the cards thing you are mentioning. It sounds like it is much less in Kill Team than Shadespire, but I don't want GW getting any ideas on how to exploit this in the future. So I agree with your point about 'DLC' content in miniatures game.

Quite a few of the faction starters have AWESOME tactics cards in them so you absolutely do need them if you're playing competitively (which is what we were talking about - if you don't care about being competitive in underworlds then you can just buy your gang starter).

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Quite a few of the faction starters have AWESOME tactics cards in them so you absolutely do need them if you're playing competitively (which is what we were talking about - if you don't care about being competitive in underworlds then you can just buy your gang starter).

Again, this isn't true. It's not unbelievable to be competitive with just a basic faction and the Leaders deck.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Quite a few of the faction starters have AWESOME tactics cards in them so you absolutely do need them if you're playing competitively (which is what we were talking about - if you don't care about being competitive in underworlds then you can just buy your gang starter).

No one even uses the cards. It's not like you literally have to play a card in order to use a tactic, that isn't part of the rules. All of the tactics are easily available, and absolutely nothing is stopping anyone from simply playing their regular 40k models and using any of the tactics in game. Underworlds is a card-based deck building game so obviously it's a different case, but Kill Team has zero rules-sanctioned use for the cards whatsoever. Likewise with the tokens; everything you get in a Kill Team faction or commander box is optional material meant as an aid to memory.

Edit - never mind, it wasn't clear to me that you were contrasting Underworlds and KT.

 Toofast wrote:


The starter box sold out every production run. It was never going to be produced forever, but that also doesn't equal a dying game.

Looking at the GW web store, there is no starter box and several of the major supplementary boxes are marked as sold out/no longer available. Without access to those items the game is dieing as far as I'm concerned.

You don't "need" the starter box, literally every single item in the box is available in some other way.

Oh? Where is the Imperial killzone? Where are the cards and tokens for the admech and genesteeler cult factions? As far as I can see the only thing from the starter box that's currently available are the actual miniatures. Maybe it will all be back on sale some day, but I'm tired of waiting.

Anything that is temporarily out of stock on the GW site or wasn't sold separately can be purchased on ebay.

Yes, I've seen the starter box on eBay... For $600+. No thanks.

] Thousands of people around the world have managed to get into kill team without the starter box.

I've answered this already. I know I don't NEED the damn starter box to play the game. However, I WANT the starter box, and the killzone sets (well, maybe not the deathworld forest, that one sucks). To me, part of the appeal of the game was all the cool stuff in those boxes. If I can't get those things I'm not interested in bothering with the game. I'm glad you are enjoying it and it's successful in your area but this availability BS has killed my interest in the game.

 Luciferian wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Quite a few of the faction starters have AWESOME tactics cards in them so you absolutely do need them if you're playing competitively (which is what we were talking about - if you don't care about being competitive in underworlds then you can just buy your gang starter).

No one even uses the cards. It's not like you literally have to play a card in order to use a tactic, that isn't part of the rules. All of the tactics are easily available, and absolutely nothing is stopping anyone from simply playing their regular 40k models and using any of the tactics in game. Underworlds is a card-based deck building game so obviously it's a different case, but Kill Team has zero rules-sanctioned use for the cards whatsoever. Likewise with the tokens; everything you get in a Kill Team faction or commander box is optional material meant as an aid to memory.

Edit - never mind, it wasn't clear to me that you were contrasting Underworlds and KT.

You mean other than tournament events that have required people to have the cards?

 mdauben wrote:

Oh? Where is the Imperial killzone?

There isn't one. Because it was basically this product doubled up with a cardboard tileset.

Where are the cards and tokens for the admech and genesteeler cult factions? As far as I can see the only thing from the starter box that's currently available are the actual miniatures. Maybe it will all be back on sale some day, but I'm tired of waiting.

The cards aren't needed. Tokens aren't needed either.


All you really need from it is the book to get playing.
The cards gave you the 'preset' kill teams and the basic stratagems, along with the faction specific ones that one would get from a specific starter set.
You can get the actual gaming cards in the Data Cards 2018 set that is still sold.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
The starter box sold out every production run

So one.

It sold out, came back in stock, then sold out again. I'm not a math major but I count two there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mdauben wrote:

 Toofast wrote:


The starter box sold out every production run. It was never going to be produced forever, but that also doesn't equal a dying game.

Looking at the GW web store, there is no starter box and several of the major supplementary boxes are marked as sold out/no longer available. Without access to those items the game is dieing as far as I'm concerned.

You don't "need" the starter box, literally every single item in the box is available in some other way.

Oh? Where is the Imperial killzone? Where are the cards and tokens for the admech and genesteeler cult factions? As far as I can see the only thing from the starter box that's currently available are the actual miniatures. Maybe it will all be back on sale some day, but I'm tired of waiting.

Anything that is temporarily out of stock on the GW site or wasn't sold separately can be purchased on ebay.

Yes, I've seen the starter box on eBay... For $600+. No thanks.

] Thousands of people around the world have managed to get into kill team without the starter box.

I've answered this already. I know I don't NEED the damn starter box to play the game. However, I WANT the starter box, and the killzone sets (well, maybe not the deathworld forest, that one sucks). To me, part of the appeal of the game was all the cool stuff in those boxes. If I can't get those things I'm not interested in bothering with the game. I'm glad you are enjoying it and it's successful in your area but this availability BS has killed my interest in the game.

1. Is 40k dying just because every starter set they ever made is not in print until the end of time? How about AoS? Just because you arbitrarily set the bar there doesn't make that reality.
2. The cards and tokens can be purchased on ebay, and aren't needed to play the game. Tactics on those cards can be found online. Type them up in a word document and print it out. Attach it in an email to yourself and you'll have an electronic copy, too. Tokens are just used to help remember things. I have tokens for 3 different factions and don't even use them because they just clutter the board.
3. Just because you saw one person trying to get $600 doesn't mean that's what they sell for. Looking at sold listings on ebay, sorted by most recent, we have starter sets sold for $147, $188, $174, $147, and $155, all including shipping. Show me a link to a single kill team starter box that has sold for $600. You can't, it literally hasn't happened. Again, you just feel like moving the goalposts as far as you need to try and reinforce your untenable position.
4. If you wanted those things so badly, why didn't you buy any of them in the 3 months that they were available? My FLGS had starter sets until December, so did the 3 closest Warhammer locations. So did the Warhammer location where I used to live, and the one where my parents currently live. They were available through third party retailers online. They were in stock 2 separate times on the GW site. If you're not going to play the game just because you have to buy things separately and look on ebay for a few things, your local meta is probably better off without you anyway.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

You mean other than tournament events that have required people to have the cards?

Which tournament events would those be? Considering that there is absolutely no rule which says you must have the card in order to play a tactic, I'd say that's on the TO, who is most likely not officially affiliated with GW.

 Luciferian wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

You mean other than tournament events that have required people to have the cards?

Which tournament events would those be? Considering that there is absolutely no rule which says you must have the card in order to play a tactic, I'd say that's on the TO, who is most likely not officially affiliated with GW.

You don't need the card if the rule for the tactic is in a book that you have. But if you have a tactic, such as those that came in the various starter sets for each faction that are not in an official book, then you must have the card. The tournament rules that GW published for NOVA and other organized Kill Team events state this plain as day.

Well, for my part, I’m not requiring the use of cards at our LGS’ KT events (tourney or campaign).

 Luciferian wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

You mean other than tournament events that have required people to have the cards?

Which tournament events would those be? Considering that there is absolutely no rule which says you must have the card in order to play a tactic, I'd say that's on the TO, who is most likely not officially affiliated with GW.

GW events and 3rd party events that had rules packs prepared by GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

callidusx3 wrote:
Well, for my part, I’m not requiring the use of cards at our LGS’ KT events (tourney or campaign).

How are you ensuring that people have the correct text for the tactics (that aren't in the books)? Via the app I hope and not (as has been suggested in this thread) people's typed up copies that could be deliberately or accidentally wrong.

Everyone can lighten up now?



More Kill Team coming in 2019

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/01/1st-dec-the-top-5-things-to-look-forward-to-in-2019gw-homepage-post-3/?utm_source=GamesWorkshop.com&utm_campaign=816b1dc554-GW_1st_January_New_Year_ENG&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c6e14e39d2-816b1dc554-113378197

That's a lot of stuff coming up.

I for one wish GW would slow down the releases, I can't get a breather and some time to paint up my backlog...

Good to see that GW store staff are as reliable for news as ever... guess she was desperate to get her sale off me.

Still, good news is the game will continue and we get some new unit options. Wonder if it will indeed be a new starter.

You don’t have to buy it all
I know what you mean, though it’s really good seeing all the new stuff, it is making me want lots of it, and it’s fast coming..

Danny76 wrote:
You don’t have to buy it all

That's quitter talk!

 Geifer wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
You don’t have to buy it all

That's quitter talk!

That's right it is.

 JonWebb wrote:
Good to see that GW store staff are as reliable for news as ever... guess she was desperate to get her sale off me.

Still, good news is the game will continue and we get some new unit options. Wonder if it will indeed be a new starter.

It's quite possible the current starter set could be replaced with a new version with alternate terrain or factions. The fact that the Kill Team starter and supplements continue to sell out is a good thing for the game even if it means there's the occasional temporary inconvenience.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

callidusx3 wrote:
Well, for my part, I’m not requiring the use of cards at our LGS’ KT events (tourney or campaign).

How are you ensuring that people have the correct text for the tactics (that aren't in the books)? Via the app I hope and not (as has been suggested in this thread) people's typed up copies that could be deliberately or accidentally wrong.

By providing the text to all participants. My summaries can be found in the file section for KT at Boardgamegeek.

Aren't the rules that are on all the cards printed in the various rulebooks/expansion books anyway?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Aren't the rules that are on all the cards printed in the various rulebooks/expansion books anyway?

No, they aren't. You get a small number of tactics for each faction in the rulebook. The faction starters came with a bunch more and that's where most of the best ones are.

You can get them all in the KT Manager app.

 Kanluwen wrote:
[
There isn't one. Because it was basically this product doubled up with a cardboard tileset.

Fair enough, although it is missing the tileset (and please don't waste you time telling me I don't "need" the tileset).

The cards aren't needed. Tokens aren't needed either.All you really need from it is the book to get playing

And as I've said at least twice already, I don't care what the absolute minimum I can squeek by with and still sorta play the game. I want the cards and tokens.

The cards gave you the 'preset' kill teams and the basic stratagems, along with the faction specific ones that one would get from a specific starter set.

AFAIK, there are not any faction starters for the Genestealer Cult or Admech. Those are the two factions I'm most interested in, until and unless GW releases a starter for Death Guard or Thousand Sons.

You can get the actual gaming cards in the Data Cards 2018 set that is still sold.

Fair enough. I didn't know those were available, although that does not include the faction specific cards for the GSC or Admech.

3. Just because you saw one person trying to get $600 doesn't mean that's what they sell for. Looking at sold listings on ebay, sorted by most recent, we have starter sets sold for $147, $188, $174, $147, and $155, all including shipping. Show me a link to a single kill team starter box that has sold for $600. You can't, it literally hasn't happened. Again, you just feel like moving the goalposts as far as you need to try and reinforce your untenable position. 

Hthe last time I checked ebay, there were no starter sets being offered for less that $350 and some where as listed as high as $600. It does not matter what someone has sold it for previously, if no one is offering it for that price now. So, I'm am not "moving the goalposts" I am stating a fact. Looking at eBay right now I see one set being offered for $150 with shipping which I will agree it is available for less thst it was last time I checked, although still more than MSRP and quite a bit more than retail.

4. If you wanted those things so badly, why didn't you buy any of them in the 3 months that they were available? My FLGS had starter sets until December, so did the 3 closest 

As I said at least twice already, I pre-ordered the starter. My order was not filled on the release date and my FLGS was given two dates that he would get his back orders. Eventually, he told me he didn't think he was ever going to get it and by that time over two months had passed none of the local shops had any copies, and none of the US online shops I tried had it in stock or could promise they would ever get it.

I thank those of you who honestly tried to help me and those of you who just argued that I was wrong for wanting what I wanted, I'm tired of arguing and justifying myself so I'm done.

Why do you need a starter box for Death Guard or 1k sons? Buy the models and whatever terrain you want. Get a 30x22 mat from fat mats and use that instead of the cardboard playing surface. Get tokens from a 3rd party seller. Print the tactics out onto thick paper and have them laminated, or even have them printed out at a place like Kinkos. All these problems are problems you made up in your own head because you want to be salty that the exact box set you wanted is no longer available or now costs $20 more.