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Mahu wrote:This whole thread is about experiences, and I thank you Shep for playtesting the crap out of this codex. I very much appreciate your findings.

Like I said, I think you should at least proxy a Space Wolf army to playtest against as I think they are the one codex we will have the most trouble with, and I will have a Batrep up tonight for your reading.

Jaws is a killer, and you will notice the lack of a Deathleaper almost immediately.

Here is my next test list, see how this one fairs:


Hive Tyrant w/ Bonesword-Lashwhip, Stranglehorn Cannon, Old Adversary, Hive Commander, 2+ Save, Life Leech, Paroxysm = 280
3 Zoenthropes in a Pod = 220
Deathleaper = 140
20 Termagaunts = 100
Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin = 200
20 Hormagaunts w/ Toxin = 160
9 Genestealers w/ Toxin = 153
Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, Frag in Pod = 225
Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, Frag in Pod = 225
Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regenerate = 295

Basically I went from 10 gaunts in my initial screen to 40. I pushed myself to put toxin on the Hormagaunts though my instinct it to keep them cheap. I put regeneration on the Tyrannofex because I did some test rolls in my first game, and he would have goten back 4 wounds if he actually had regeneration. So that may be one of those YMMV things. I can still outflank with two units if the need calls for it. And I have 2+ save Hive Tyrant and Tyrannofex to sheild the Tervigon.

Look for my report tonight, I made a few mistakes, but you will see what I am up against.

I think Toxin on the little guys is essential, almost a must buy. The Termagaunts get it from daddy, but the hormogaunts definately need it. Wounding on 4+s drastically changes their output versus MEQs and TEQs.

Therion wrote:What I'd like you to comment on is whether you think this (the list you played)...

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
3x zoanthropes
tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs crushing claws catalyst
tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs crushing claws catalyst
30x termagants
30x termagants

...is a good all around tournament list, and whether you rate its chances of actually doing well? I like the list a lot, but can it beat any other types of armies than the ones you tested it against? I've said this in this very same thread before, but how does the above list deal with fast moving assault units that will be in close combat with something from turn 2 onwards, like TWC or Nob Bikers? What about Chaos Daemons, etc? I can't really see anything in the army that won't just vaporise in a single turn in close combat, and Nids don't have the benefit of being able to hide inside cheap transports for the first assault phase.

Absolutely, the worst thing about it for a tourney is getting a good play speed down with it. The tervigon/gant engine is fantastically resilient. I haven't lined it up across from nob bikers yet, but I'm sure they don't like getting shot by hive guard and t-fexes, and they'll get worn out by gants. T-fexes are fun to shoot at TWC. Chaos demons seem like they are in trouble, their infantry assaulters won't match up well with supergants, but bloodcrushers would probably do well... That's why I'd like a swarmlord, possibly.

I lost with my most tuned IG list (tuned post nid release with the fleet officer) in a spearhead seize ground to it. And a double land raider list lost in a capture and control with the nid army not losing a single MC. It might go down differrently in another game. But were I fully painted with that list, i wouldn't hesitate to take it to a gt. Any tweaks I need to make would be balanced out by my opponents lack of experience in dealing with tervigons.

Mahu wrote:Look for my report tonight, I made a few mistakes, but you will see what I am up against.

Sweet. Looking forward to it.

If anyone has pulled it off yet, let me know how a unit of toxic gaunts getting furious charge from a Tervigon fare against enemy units that have been skill bombed by a Hive Tyrant. Sounds like it could turn what is normally easy meat into a nasty assault shield against the hardest of non-vehicle assaulters.

Shep wrote:
Check out the "choppy" nid army.

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
swarmlord
2x tyrant guard
7x genestealers with toxin sacs
25x hormagaunts with toxin sacs
25x hormagaunts with toxin sacs

Isn't this dangerously low on synapse? Granted you have the guard to go with the swarmlord and the horms have feed. Maybe I'm not fully adjusted to the new codex but lack of synapse worries me in a list like this.

Railguns wrote:If anyone has pulled it off yet, let me know how a unit of toxic gaunts getting furious charge from a Tervigon fare against enemy units that have been skill bombed by a Hive Tyrant. Sounds like it could turn what is normally easy meat into a nasty assault shield against the hardest of non-vehicle assaulters.

Gaunts buffed by a nearby Old Adversary Tyrant and a Tervigon are ridiciliously hard to assault effectively. My local opponent runs 23 gaunt screens and it works out to roughly 34.5 hits and 17.25 wounds at I5 before saves against T5+. Against T4 or lower, the number of wounds jumps up to 25.875. And this is without a successful use of paraoxysm on the target. Even diversified Thunderwolves tend to drop quickly when they charge into the gaunts because the lanes for the MCs were blocked. ~5 to 6 wounds after saves against toughness 5 is nothing to sneeze at. It only gets worse if a Venomthrope is nearby. It seems to me that the most dangerous Nid lists will feature a little bit of everything so that even the lowliest Nid becomes a force to be reckoned with.

Synapse doesn't have a such a bad effect in the Dex, the only problem is that you don't reaaly have control of your troops. Some fire and move to cover, and other get the Rage USR IIRC.

Shep do you think it would be feasible to pull elements from both of the different list types you've posted and put them together in one list? I'm asking becuse the more I fool with the book the more I seem to be migrating towards something that looks like it is a mix between the Hormagant rush and the Tervigon farm. It looks like this:

Swarmlord
2x Tyrant Guard: Lash Whips
3x Hive Guard
3x Hive Guard
20x Hormagants: Toxin Sacs
30x Termagants
Tervigon: Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon

I might be seeing this incorrectly but I'm getting the stable core of the Tervigon/Supergaunts as well as the damage capacity of Swarmlord and Hormagants. I've also got the important AT stuff in there. I guess what I'm asking is if it is crucial to have 2 Tervigons in there to hold down the center, or if we can get by with 1 and some other goodies?

Caffran9 wrote:Shep do you think it would be feasible to pull elements from both of the different list types you've posted and put them together in one list? I'm asking becuse the more I fool with the book the more I seem to be migrating towards something that looks like it is a mix between the Hormagant rush and the Tervigon farm. It looks like this:

Swarmlord
2x Tyrant Guard: Lash Whips
3x Hive Guard
3x Hive Guard
20x Hormagants: Toxin Sacs
30x Termagants
Tervigon: Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon
Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon

I might be seeing this incorrectly but I'm getting the stable core of the Tervigon/Supergaunts as well as the damage capacity of Swarmlord and Hormagants. I've also got the important AT stuff in there. I guess what I'm asking is if it is crucial to have 2 Tervigons in there to hold down the center, or if we can get by with 1 and some other goodies?

Looks good. Just about anything that can highlight the nid psychic power synergy will be a great way to spend the remaining points that you didn't spend on hive guard and tyrannofexes. In fact, in some ways, splitting it like that is awesome, because you can preferred enemy the termagants before they get charged, and you can catalyst swarmlord for any shooting he may take prior to assaulting.

edit: actually, list stolen... I'm going to play with that next game. It looks really good and fun. Screen hormas with termas, so that terms counter charge and then horms furious charge.

Too bad there isn't an outflanker in it to take advantage of Swarmlord's rerolls or his +1 to reserves.

Bloodthirster wrote:Synapse doesn't have a such a bad effect in the Dex, the only problem is that you don't reaaly have control of your troops. Some fire and move to cover, and other get the Rage USR IIRC.

It's probably good policy to place objectives in or very near area terrain when possible. That way Lurkers like Termagants can just sit tight if out of synapse.

a mass of gants were moving up, screening a tervigon into midfield.

Screening like "preventing them from getting assaulted" or like "giving them a cover save?"

I'm hearing talk about giving MCs cover saves, doing a Gant, Warrior, MC sequence to give a save, and it's dubious to me. In my experience playing Nidzilla, you can give an MC cover with terrain, or another MC. Nothing else is sufficient. That might just be local rules interpretations, but 50% cover is 50% cover.

Do NOT make babies just because you can. You need to have the threat of a fresh unit ready for an emergency situation.

Yup, the fact that you want them close to your Tervigon, and they can pop, move, shoot, assault, it all adds up to hiding them inside mommy until they're needed to come rushing out. Only exception I can see is if the mommy is looking like dying next turn (and it's objectives), in which case you just want to get them out there and figure out what to do with them later.

How easy/hard do you find it to keep the Gants and Tervigons working together? That 6" range is actually pretty pitiful, and it's such a huge advantage to have. It seems like they could Counter Charge right out of 6", and lose their Poison. It just seems problematic to both block assaults and still stay in 6". Does wrapping around the back of the Terv with the unit help keep some of the models in? Do you find yourself having to run the Terv when going on offense with the blob?

Do you see a case for Regen on the Tervs? How about on the T-Fex? With so many wounds, Regen seems like a winner.

JofWW not once but twice, taking out a Tyrannofex and the Hive Tyrant (over 600 points) by turn three hurts, and hurts badly.

Still think this is a total trash power, and a major hit to my admiration for Phil Kelly's work. Absolutely idiotic to include a power that so badly turns the game into rocks-paper-scissors for MCs. Worst single rule in the game.

Phryxis wrote:

a mass of gants were moving up, screening a tervigon into midfield.

Screening like "preventing them from getting assaulted" or like "giving them a cover save?"

I'm hearing talk about giving MCs cover saves, doing a Gant, Warrior, MC sequence to give a save, and it's dubious to me. In my experience playing Nidzilla, you can give an MC cover with terrain, or another MC. Nothing else is sufficient. That might just be local rules interpretations, but 50% cover is 50% cover.

I've never had a problem with Warriors giving cover to MCs - with no abusive modeling required, Warriors standing upright are more than waist-high to a Tyrant. Standing base-to-base, they screen more than 50% just fine.

Janthkin wrote:I've never had a problem with Warriors giving cover to MCs - with no abusive modeling required, Warriors standing upright are more than waist-high to a Tyrant. Standing base-to-base, they screen more than 50% just fine.

Base-to-base Warriors sounds like it's asking for it from S8+ blasts, Gauntscreen or not. That said, when (if?) Tyrant Guard get their old 'behave exactly like a regular retinue' rule back in an errata (I can't believe it was Robin's intention, given their stated fluff, to have them carry Lash Whips for a Tyrant but keep their heads down whilst it gets Lascannoned to bits), giving two of them any amount of cover means that the whole unit gets a cover save even if the Tyrant is dancing a jig in the open and the only visible unit member, thanks to the 5ed 'half a unit's completely obscured, which means any unit member can be deaded but gets a 4+ cover save' rule.

Manticore is going to have a field day with grouped up multi-wound T3-6 creatures, as some will wound on 2's and others will simply suffer ID. Tis why I think people will start picking up on venomthropes more and more.

Thanks for the points Shep and Mahu.

Based on your playtesting, I will be fielding the following list:

Alpha Warrior (BS and LW, Death Spitter): Attached to HG (Should benefit from BS 5)

Alpha Warrior (BS and LW, Death Spitter): Attached to HG (Should benefit from BS 5)

3 Hive Guard

3 Hive Guard

3 Zoes

25 Hormies w/ TS

25 Termagants

Tervigon (Catalyst, TS, AG)

TFex (Capsul Cannon)

TFex (Capsul Cannon) or Maybe a second Tervigon

Should be right around 1850 pts

Three Waves with the mid nids sandwiched between guants and MC. If I play it right, the Alpha can stick with the HG granting them BS 5 and if the oportunity presents itself, they can jump into the guants as I close with the enemy, granting them BS 5 and WS 5. (Assuming that Apha grants his WS and BS to any nid?)

Shep wrote:

Every workable list concept we conceived by the end of the testing started with this 830 point core.

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon

Agree completely. I play Mech IG and partial Mech Space Wolves predominantly, and there's just no other combination of units that I think would really give me trouble. Getting an opposing army out of its Land Raiders and transports is key, and nothing does it as well as these two units.

Janthkin wrote:

Phryxis wrote:

a mass of gants were moving up, screening a tervigon into midfield.

Screening like "preventing them from getting assaulted" or like "giving them a cover save?"

I'm hearing talk about giving MCs cover saves, doing a Gant, Warrior, MC sequence to give a save, and it's dubious to me. In my experience playing Nidzilla, you can give an MC cover with terrain, or another MC. Nothing else is sufficient. That might just be local rules interpretations, but 50% cover is 50% cover.

I've never had a problem with Warriors giving cover to MCs - with no abusive modeling required, Warriors standing upright are more than waist-high to a Tyrant. Standing base-to-base, they screen more than 50% just fine.

I would agree that yes you can screen with warriors, I have done so many times in the past. However, this new codex has taken away the warriors resiliancy to blast weapons which is the biggest problem with this tactic. No more biker nob wound allocation combined with no more immunity to ID, means that pie templates and high strength pie templates are going to hurt such formations and dwindle your screen down pretty fast.

wyomingfox wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Phryxis wrote:

a mass of gants were moving up, screening a tervigon into midfield.

Screening like "preventing them from getting assaulted" or like "giving them a cover save?"

I'm hearing talk about giving MCs cover saves, doing a Gant, Warrior, MC sequence to give a save, and it's dubious to me. In my experience playing Nidzilla, you can give an MC cover with terrain, or another MC. Nothing else is sufficient. That might just be local rules interpretations, but 50% cover is 50% cover.

I've never had a problem with Warriors giving cover to MCs - with no abusive modeling required, Warriors standing upright are more than waist-high to a Tyrant. Standing base-to-base, they screen more than 50% just fine.

I would agree that yes you can screen with warriors, I have done so many times in the past. However, this new codex has taken away the warriors resiliancy to blast weapons which is the biggest problem with this tactic. No more biker nob wound allocation combined with no more immunity to ID, means that pie templates and high strength pie templates are going to hurt such formations and dwindle your screen down pretty fast.

As with everything else, it's not for use in every situation. But there are relatively few instant-death blasts out there (mostly in the IG, though Vindicators are popular), and I'd be willing to risk plasma cannon hits on screened Warriors.

No way Hive Commander stacks, you could potentially end up with +3 reserves with 2 tyrants and a Deathleaper. I do agree with Hive Commander and Pheromone Trail stacking as those are differently named rules.

It's interesting to read all the different forums and how back and forth Hive Guard are. Their seems to be no middle ground it's black and white for or against them. I will admit I am tempted to play test them now at least. I would think 6 hive guard + 3 Zoanthrope should be all the anti-tank a list would need. Are 4 more ST10 AP4 shots really worth 600 points?

Id be all for hive guard if they werent 20 fething dollars a model.

As it stands I think ill have 3 hive guard and 3 zoeys in my 2k list.

Yesthetruthhurts.com has a pretty good guide to converting Warriors into Hive Guard for, I presume, considerably less $$$ than the metal figs.

Direct link to post in question:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/01/phalanxs-hive-guard-conversion-tutorial.html

And I agree, it looks quite good.

EDIT: Oh there's 2; http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/01/steleks-conversion-hive-guard.html

Well, great. I sit down to write my battle report, but find all the photos blurry.

I should be able to get a ton of test games on Saturday with my new list, hopefully I get a real batrep from there.

I posted my version of the Tyrannofex, if anybody is interested:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/274975.page#1267267

Batrep it up here dude. I dont need pics, more something like what shep did.

"heres unit x, it sucks because of reason A, unit Y is great though for reason B etc"

Linkdead wrote:No way Hive Commander stacks, you could potentially end up with +3 reserves with 2 tyrants and a Deathleaper. I do agree with Hive Commander and Pheromone Trail stacking as those are differently named rules.

It's interesting to read all the different forums and how back and forth Hive Guard are. Their seems to be no middle ground it's black and white for or against them. I will admit I am tempted to play test them now at least. I would think 6 hive guard + 3 Zoanthrope should be all the anti-tank a list would need. Are 4 more ST10 AP4 shots really worth 600 points?

Except the Codex explicitly states two Hive Commanders stack their bonuses.

Great thread. I'm so following this one.

I get to try my Tyranids a week from this coming Saturday.

We do 2500's and my list is looking like this (based on models owned).

Tyrant with Tyrant Guard (not sure loadout yet)
Alpha Warrior with Talons/Claws/Regen (he'll lead a squad of Stealers)
Brood of 3 Lictors
DeathLeaper
20 Horms with Sacs
24 Spinegaunts (I know they apparently suck but I'm using them).
10 Stealers with Sacs led by the Alpha
14 Stealers with Tals/Sacs led by BL with Tals
4 Raveners with RC's
Brood of deuce carnifi with tals/bio/glands (screamer killers)
Mawloc (or possibly TP).

The only thing I'm not sure of is Mawloc or Prime? I want to eventually run all 3 variants of the Trygon but since this is my only one for a while what would be better in your opinions?

Opponents are mostly Mech Guard, SW's, 50/50 Mech/Infantry SM army or Speed Freaks style Orks.

Neither, your army has almost no ranged anti tank.

I mistook that for a 2,000 point list when I first saw it, and one that I'm pretty sure my 2,000 point list could take. I'd try again.

The closest I'll get to ranged anti-tank is running the Carns to have VC's and the HT.

I'm working with the models I have and can get my hands on.

I was wondering what a potential ArdBoys (2.5k) Fex spam (9 fexes) would look like. Any of you awesome Nid players out there up to the challenge of drawing up a potential list?