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I know vanilla IG are all sworn to the emporer and would never ever willingly ally with Chaos but there are legions of IG that go traitor every single day. Many of them head for the eye of terror to do the bidding of the chaos gods. Why can't they ally with Chaos space marines like vanilla IG and vanilla marines?

I personally would have invested signifigant $$ into a Chaos / IG allied list, which would probably be no better perhaps worse than a SM/IG list.

Yes, the fact that Traitor Guard is not covered by the allies list correctly (imho) is a shame.

Imperial Guard can ally with anyone. They're listed as a mid-tier ally to Chaos Marines.

Well firstly you made some contradicting statements.
Secondly why don't you just use the SM/IG rules and make them look chaos and give them chaos fluff?
They've just controlled gimmicks and still left option open.

If we're fortunate this may point to traitor guardsmen/cultists/non-specific renegades featuring in the forthcoming Codex: Chaos Marines. Failing that, there are still the Vraks and Badab War lists, or the option of just writing your own.

I think the only difference between the top and second tier of allies is that you cant use powers on one anothers units and cant mix IC's with the other forces units.

Which would still make sense for traitor guard. Could you imagine a CSM taking orders from a CCS? or a Lord Commisar getting chummy with a unit of bezerkers? I'm sure it will still be possible to make it work in a way that would make sense, without hindering you.

Briancj wrote:Yes, the fact that Traitor Guard is not covered by the allies list correctly (imho) is a shame.

Who says it's not correct?

Traitor Guard are regarded as nothing more than cannon fodder and slaves by the Traitor Legions. You don't become bestest friends with your meatshields.

Gorechild wrote:I think the only difference between the top and second tier of allies is that you cant use powers on one anothers units and cant mix IC's with the other forces units.

Which would still make sense for traitor guard. Could you imagine a CSM taking orders from a CCS? or a Lord Commisar getting chummy with a unit of bezerkers? I'm sure it will still be possible to make it work in a way that would make sense, without hindering you.

honestly I cannot imagine any SM taking orders from a CCS or a lord commisar getting chummy with some blood angels. Right now it looks like Lord Commisars can join units of death company.

FW has got Renegade Militia which is Traitor Guard and CSM army.

Not sure really if its worth it now though, seeing that GW made allies which makes Renegade list inferior to normal IG mixed with CSM

I'm pretty pissed off about that actually

Yak9UT wrote:FW has got Renegade Militia which is Traitor Guard and CSM army.

Not sure really if its worth it now though, seeing that GW made allies which makes Renegade list inferior to normal IG mixed with CSM

I'm pretty pissed off about that actually

I wouldn't say that at all.

The Renegade lists(with an "s", as there are no less than 3 different Vraksian Renegade lists. One "vanilla", one Khorne, one Nurgle) have access to some neat stuff like an Alpha Legion squad for the vanilla which has a rule about them infiltrating wearing Loyalist armour.

And that's not counting the Tyrant's Legion list from IA9+10.

Exergy wrote:Honestly I cannot imagine any SM taking orders from a CCS or a lord commisar getting chummy with some blood angels. Right now it looks like Lord Commisars can join units of death company.

Better yet, that commissar will summarily BLAM! marines who fail their morale checks - even if they're using Combat Tactics to fail advantageously.

Oh Games Workshop, truly you have excelled yourselves this time...

English Assassin wrote:

Exergy wrote:Honestly I cannot imagine any SM taking orders from a CCS or a lord commisar getting chummy with some blood angels. Right now it looks like Lord Commisars can join units of death company.

Better yet, that commissar will summarily BLAM! marines who fail their morale checks - even if they're using Combat Tactics to fail advantageously.

Oh Games Workshop, truly you have excelled yourselves this time...

wonderful

If you're looking to build a fluff-friendly IG + CSM list, you won't have Commissars. Those are the first guys fragged when the unit decides to switch sides.

Kanluwen wrote:

Yak9UT wrote:FW has got Renegade Militia which is Traitor Guard and CSM army.

Not sure really if its worth it now though, seeing that GW made allies which makes Renegade list inferior to normal IG mixed with CSM

I'm pretty pissed off about that actually

I wouldn't say that at all.

The Renegade lists(with an "s", as there are no less than 3 different Vraksian Renegade lists. One "vanilla", one Khorne, one Nurgle) have access to some neat stuff like an Alpha Legion squad for the vanilla which has a rule about them infiltrating wearing Loyalist armour.

And that's not counting the Tyrant's Legion list from IA9+10.

No I mean in regards to how IG can field tank squadrons while Renegade militia can't and how renegades need to roll for their leadership value while normal IG don't.

CSM take up elite choice while in an allies list can take them as troops

My army list will never be as good as a IG/CSM allies list.

English Assassin wrote:

Exergy wrote:Honestly I cannot imagine any SM taking orders from a CCS or a lord commisar getting chummy with some blood angels. Right now it looks like Lord Commisars can join units of death company.

Better yet, that commissar will summarily BLAM! marines who fail their morale checks - even if they're using Combat Tactics to fail advantageously.

Oh Games Workshop, truly you have excelled yourselves this time...

There's also going to be a wave of FAQs released that will clarify and change numerous things in old codexes. We have no idea what any of those are.

So, don't go around screaming the sky is falling just yet.

Psienesis wrote:If you're looking to build a fluff-friendly IG + CSM list, you won't have Commissars. Those are the first guys fragged when the unit decides to switch sides.

Then call them something else. The Renegades lists simply rename them as Enforcers, but they use the exact same rules as Commissars.

Grakmar wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

Exergy wrote:Honestly I cannot imagine any SM taking orders from a CCS or a lord commisar getting chummy with some blood angels. Right now it looks like Lord Commisars can join units of death company.

Better yet, that commissar will summarily BLAM! marines who fail their morale checks - even if they're using Combat Tactics to fail advantageously.

Oh Games Workshop, truly you have excelled yourselves this time...

There's also going to be a wave of FAQs released that will clarify and change numerous things in old codexes. We have no idea what any of those are.

So, don't go around screaming the sky is falling just yet.

Am I "screaming that the sky is falling"? No, I'm taking the **** out of GW.

Yak9UT wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Yak9UT wrote:FW has got Renegade Militia which is Traitor Guard and CSM army.

Not sure really if its worth it now though, seeing that GW made allies which makes Renegade list inferior to normal IG mixed with CSM

I'm pretty pissed off about that actually

I wouldn't say that at all.

The Renegade lists(with an "s", as there are no less than 3 different Vraksian Renegade lists. One "vanilla", one Khorne, one Nurgle) have access to some neat stuff like an Alpha Legion squad for the vanilla which has a rule about them infiltrating wearing Loyalist armour.

And that's not counting the Tyrant's Legion list from IA9+10.

No I mean in regards to how IG can field tank squadrons while Renegade militia can't and how renegades need to roll for their leadership value while normal IG don't.

Who would have thought that an army fielding "Worker's Rabble" wouldn't be able to take squadrons of tanks!

CSM take up elite choice while in an allies list can take them as troops

An allies list also requires you to buy a CSM HQ.

My army list will never be as good as a IG/CSM allies list.

On the contrary, it will never be the same.

That's not a bad thing. It's a far more fluffy list.

If they actually had some intelligence behind this and there's any truth to the vague CSM rumors out there, Cultists and traitor guard will feature, at least to some degree, in the new chaos book whenever it is released. I think they approached the allies thing as "yeah, IG do go traitor, so we'll throw a bone, but we're still looking at this really as actual loyalist IG as the codex portrays". Even when human forces do fight with CSM's, they're generally cannon-fodder underlings (at least, from the CSM's perspective, even if the truth is otherwise), so it's not the same thing as say, IG and Space Marines where the IG may be lesser soldiers but still fellow warriors of the Emperor.


Being both an IG and CSM player, I'm not too heartbroken about it.

Maybe the new Chaos Dex will have some renegade stuff

Kanluwen wrote:

Yak9UT wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Yak9UT wrote:FW has got Renegade Militia which is Traitor Guard and CSM army.

Not sure really if its worth it now though, seeing that GW made allies which makes Renegade list inferior to normal IG mixed with CSM

I'm pretty pissed off about that actually

I wouldn't say that at all.

The Renegade lists(with an "s", as there are no less than 3 different Vraksian Renegade lists. One "vanilla", one Khorne, one Nurgle) have access to some neat stuff like an Alpha Legion squad for the vanilla which has a rule about them infiltrating wearing Loyalist armour.

And that's not counting the Tyrant's Legion list from IA9+10.

No I mean in regards to how IG can field tank squadrons while Renegade militia can't and how renegades need to roll for their leadership value while normal IG don't.

Who would have thought that an army fielding "Worker's Rabble" wouldn't be able to take squadrons of tanks!

CSM take up elite choice while in an allies list can take them as troops

An allies list also requires you to buy a CSM HQ.

My army list will never be as good as a IG/CSM allies list.

On the contrary, it will never be the same.

That's not a bad thing. It's a far more fluffy list.

Fluff? Fluff seems to be completely gone now that you can have have unrealistic allies

I just think my army has lost its charm now that people can field vanilla traitor guard lists that are are more changeable and better then my list.

The only thing you can't do with Chaos and IG is have IC from either side join the other. I don't see the huge deal.

Exergy wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I think the only difference between the top and second tier of allies is that you cant use powers on one anothers units and cant mix IC's with the other forces units.

Which would still make sense for traitor guard. Could you imagine a CSM taking orders from a CCS? or a Lord Commisar getting chummy with a unit of bezerkers? I'm sure it will still be possible to make it work in a way that would make sense, without hindering you.

honestly I cannot imagine any SM taking orders from a CCS or a lord commisar getting chummy with some blood angels. Right now it looks like Lord Commisars can join units of death company.

Assuming it is clear tactical advice I can imagine an SM sergeant or Captain taking "orders" (put it in quotes because the IG codex even says that when lower ranking units are giving orders to higher ranking units it is more like advice like "sir my tactical information makes me believe that your unit is currently a prime target and should take cover") assuming the advice is good and the marines aren't the haughtiest chapter ever.

So yeah if an IG captain yelled through the vox "My lord it appears as though the enemy is actively targeting your position, I suggest you take cover immediately." at an SM captain he might very well hit the deck.

Chaos are probably too proud and haughty to listen to the suggestion of traitor guardsmen.

Omegus wrote:The only thing you can't do with Chaos and IG is have IC from either side join the other. I don't see the huge deal.

psykic powers and friendly abilities dont work either.

True, so no taking Straken to give all nearby CSM Furious Charge and Counter Assault.

Buttons wrote:

Exergy wrote:
honestly I cannot imagine any SM taking orders from a CCS or a lord commisar getting chummy with some blood angels. Right now it looks like Lord Commisars can join units of death company.

Assuming it is clear tactical advice I can imagine an SM sergeant or Captain taking "orders" (put it in quotes because the IG codex even says that when lower ranking units are giving orders to higher ranking units it is more like advice like "sir my tactical information makes me believe that your unit is currently a prime target and should take cover") assuming the advice is good and the marines aren't the haughtiest chapter ever.

So yeah if an IG captain yelled through the vox "My lord it appears as though the enemy is actively targeting your position, I suggest you take cover immediately." at an SM captain he might very well hit the deck.

Chaos are probably too proud and haughty to listen to the suggestion of traitor guardsmen.

But if an IG captain yelled to a SM sergeant. "Take that hill! charge up the left side and hold it till I relieve you." I doubt the SM is going to do it, perhaps they might but they probably will choose their way to accomplish those ends.

Traitor guard don't get on as well with traitor marines as loyalist guard get on with loyalist marines.
Yet more people whinging about the fluff being wrong when they don't have the first clue...

Exergy wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Exergy wrote:
honestly I cannot imagine any SM taking orders from a CCS or a lord commisar getting chummy with some blood angels. Right now it looks like Lord Commisars can join units of death company.

Assuming it is clear tactical advice I can imagine an SM sergeant or Captain taking "orders" (put it in quotes because the IG codex even says that when lower ranking units are giving orders to higher ranking units it is more like advice like "sir my tactical information makes me believe that your unit is currently a prime target and should take cover") assuming the advice is good and the marines aren't the haughtiest chapter ever.

So yeah if an IG captain yelled through the vox "My lord it appears as though the enemy is actively targeting your position, I suggest you take cover immediately." at an SM captain he might very well hit the deck.

Chaos are probably too proud and haughty to listen to the suggestion of traitor guardsmen.

But if an IG captain yelled to a SM sergeant. "Take that hill! charge up the left side and hold it till I relieve you." I doubt the SM is going to do it, perhaps they might but they probably will choose their way to accomplish those ends.

The IG captain is not in the SM's chain of command and has no command authority over him, just as that IG captain isn't going to take orders from an SM Chapter Master unless the Munitorum has placed his regiment under the SM's command because the Chapter Master does not have a place in the chain of command of the Imperial Guard.

That said, there are all sorts of ways to interpret special abilities and the like that can be made to make sense (as noted above, a suggestion of incoming fire may be responded to appropriately)

Exergy wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Exergy wrote:
honestly I cannot imagine any SM taking orders from a CCS or a lord commisar getting chummy with some blood angels. Right now it looks like Lord Commisars can join units of death company.

Assuming it is clear tactical advice I can imagine an SM sergeant or Captain taking "orders" (put it in quotes because the IG codex even says that when lower ranking units are giving orders to higher ranking units it is more like advice like "sir my tactical information makes me believe that your unit is currently a prime target and should take cover") assuming the advice is good and the marines aren't the haughtiest chapter ever.

So yeah if an IG captain yelled through the vox "My lord it appears as though the enemy is actively targeting your position, I suggest you take cover immediately." at an SM captain he might very well hit the deck.

Chaos are probably too proud and haughty to listen to the suggestion of traitor guardsmen.

But if an IG captain yelled to a SM sergeant. "Take that hill! charge up the left side and hold it till I relieve you." I doubt the SM is going to do it, perhaps they might but they probably will choose their way to accomplish those ends.

Except no orders work like that. The only things orders do are allow you to ignore cover, allow you to move faster, let you twin-link your weapons, allow you to take cover, or allow lasguns to fire an extra shot. Orders are pretty abstract and either represent measures that should be taken because why not (if you are under fire and someone says you should probably duck why not duck?) or tactical information "I have triangulated the enemy position, open fire when ready." Also, marines are smart, and orders can fail just like morale checks, so just say that if an order passes the marines listen to the advice, if the order fails the marines don't trust the advice.

Besides the addition of hull points has nerfed BiD while decreasing standard cover has nerfed FOMT, which are the two best orders, and the only other firepower boosting order I can think of is FRFSRF which is useless unless you have a lasgun or multiple lasguns in the receiving unit.

Do the allies rules take into account the Imperial Armour army lists? I mean do you think there will be a seperate appendix for them, or are we supposed to just count them as their parent lists (ie Death Korps as Imperial Guard), in that case it could leave a bit of conflict as the Vraks rebels use the Guard list as a parent, but they really don't fit it in terms of fluff. =/ It would be nice for them to say that such a force counted as Chaos allies, but having them as wary pawns instead still fits with the fluff (it'll only be an issue if Games Workshop releases rules for tournements, etc, where battle brother get additional points or the like).