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Perhaps he meant characteristic tests for USR?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:I really just don't like how GW is introducing lots of abilities that radically circumvent the existing framework for how models on the table fight.

Wouldn't it be great if rather than having lots of different rules for each unit that had slight variations between each one, leading to lots of confusion and exceptions to exceptions, that they instead had a codified list of rules that applied to all armies. You could call them "General Specialist Rules" or.... "Universal Special Rules".

Oh wait...

What does that have to do with my post? I was commenting on abilities like Gift of Chaos, JotWW, and all the other ones that are basically Characteristic Test or Death, with no save possible. I mean, I'm happy that the missile at least needs to hit, but it's just that there are a number of abilities now that are of the style: "I pick this model. He tests or dies. End of discussion." At least Gift/Boon have short range.

What I'm saying is that this game is about heroic battles. If my opponent can basically say, "regardless of the normal rules for targeting, shooting, wounding, and saves (or some combination of those), I pick your heroic model and he dies," it takes away part of the fun of playing imho. (And it furthers the mechanized atmosphere as players do not want to put their models on the table for fear of what I just described).

For example:
JotWW - I bypass targeting, shooting, wounding, and saves (leaving only psychic defense and luck). Your unit passes or dies.
Gift of Chaos - I bypass targeting, shooting, wounding, and saves (leaving only psychic defense, luck, and kiting). Your unit passes or I get a unit!
etc...

Implosion missiles (as they are rumoured) seem better. They only bypass wounding and saves, as they can still miss. On the other hand, a lot of models have 1-3 wounds, meaning at worst you have a 50% chance to kill a model that could be upwards of 200 points (in the case of SW). The only thing the controlling player can do is either eliminate the weapon or hide his models. Both of these are difficult when combating a flying unit.

It isn't game breaking, but on some level it could become "fun-draining," as having your army picked apart by lucky shots from powerful weapons that require little tactical acumen to use is very unfun imho, when it becomes the primary focus of the game.

Does the implosion model snipe out ICs? Because sticking ICs with a unit (like you are meant to) would prevent that.

Is it just me, or, with the combination of Blood Talons and leilith are my boyz screens now dead?

Lelith isn't as hardcore as Blood Talons. And on average Blood Talons still take 2 or 3 combats to take out a mob of 30. Obviously if you charge 2 or 3 Dreads in with them, then they're dead. But think of the points difference.

Oshova

To be fair, Lelith is not a good hoard killer.

10-11 attacks only cause 3-5 wounds on average, and hoards are generally gonna throw 3x the attacks back at her with the survivors.

What she IS good for is Sniping IC's in CC!

But Lelith with a full squad of wyches will probably have something like 40-50 attacks, most of which will likely be more lethal than the average Ork boy attack.

Still, a PK Nob still has a good shot at instagibbing Lelith, unless she has EW or something.

del'Vhar wrote:But Lelith with a full squad of wyches will probably have something like 40-50 attacks, most of which will likely be more lethal than the average Ork boy attack.

Still, a PK Nob still has a good shot at instagibbing Lelith, unless she has EW or something.

True, but at worst she'll have a 4+ invul save, and the nob will be hitting her on 5's.

Actually, does she still have the Shadow Field?

Gotta love that glorious piece of wargear

del'Vhar wrote:Actually, does she still have the Shadow Field?

Gotta love that glorious piece of wargear

Not sure, but if she did I would've expected them to pimp that in her little blurb on the GW website.

Gwar! wrote:Does the implosion model snipe out ICs? Because sticking ICs with a unit (like you are meant to) would prevent that.

Here's the rumoured rule:

THE RUMORZ wrote:Implosion missiles, small blast, all models touched by it take a characteristics test on their wounds and if they fail it they instantly die.

Sounds very JotWW to me.

Xca|iber wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Does the implosion model snipe out ICs? Because sticking ICs with a unit (like you are meant to) would prevent that.

Here's the rumoured rule:

THE RUMORZ wrote:Implosion missiles, small blast, all models touched by it take a characteristics test on their wounds and if they fail it they instantly die.

Sounds very JotWW to me.

Wow, so it does snipe...

Very VERY nasty.

It kills normal doods 5/6 times and 3 wound models 50%.

TMC's are safe though, only 1/6 of assploding.

That is, if it is based off TOTAL wounds.

Gwar! wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Scourges
Deepstrike. Standard with a assault 3 18" splinter weapon and can have heat lances (18" S6 AP1 Lance, Melta). 4+ armour save. Seem to get some kind of haywire grenade launcher and a jetpack like the Tau.

Great, Scourges get melta weapons.
But it appears that they are rather slow, move 6''?

If they are jetpack, they get to JSJ like Tau.

Skarboy wrote:Further, if Scourges deepstrike, if they have a jetpack, can they not land (movement phase), fire (shooting phase), 6" move (assault phase)? There might actually be a deepstrike melta unit that doesn't just stand there in the open (with a decent/lucky deepstrike, at least). We'll see.

Notice that red's source didn't say 'Jetpacks'. He said 'Jump packs'.

puma713 wrote:Notice that red's source didn't say 'Jetpacks'. He said 'Jump packs'.

Yes, but others have said Jet Packs.

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:Notice that red's source didn't say 'Jetpacks'. He said 'Jump packs'.

Yes, but others have said Jet Packs.

Exactly - it's all conjecture at the moment. Even the people that say they've seen the codex are getting wires crossed.

GW's Codex News: The biggest game of Telephone on the interwebs!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some new info from BoLS (Locephax supposedly reading from the Codex):

Locephax wrote:
Archon 60 points base huskblade 35 points soultrap is about 20.
Basic warriors are 9 points and Raiders are 60 base.
Incubi are 22 points each
Vect 240 (dais +200)
Lelith 170
ancient haemonculus 80 normal one is like 65
ravager 105-120 I think

Lelith
Lelith is WS9 BS 7 S3 T3 W3 I7/8 A4 Ld 9/10 sv6+
she has a 4++ inv against shooting (she dodges bullets lol) and a 3++ inv. in CC. Her hair counts as a shardnet and impaler (reduce ememy attacks by 1) and her knives are power weapons.

Lady Malice
(Vect's ex-lover) - she and the squad she joins are immune to all psychic powers and effects. She also has some other minor armywide ability.

Grotesques:

they are WS4 B1 S5 T5 W3 A3 ????? 6+ sv
they have feel no pain (like all other haemonculi stuff ie. the heamonculi, urien, wracks, and grotesques.) They take up 2 spaces in a transport (like Ogryn) they have to take a Ld test if an IC isn't accompanying them, and if they fail they inflict 2D6 attacks on nearby units before all dying.

Scourges

they have wings meaning they are JUMPPACK not jetpack :(

EDIT: like ACTUAL WINGS made for them by haemonculi for a lot of money. ther get surgery and fly up ato the eyries at the top of the city and act as couriers and are very rich (well paid job) and they can buy cool weapons eg splinter cannons, darklances, heat lance(?), and copme with splinter carbines standard. (very good rate of fire.)

Mandrakes

mandrake points. about 25 I think. they shoot S4 AP4 Assault 2 fire attacks. they have stealth and infiltrate. scary.

In response to who can take Venoms:

harlequins definately, I forgot what else.
it has a TL splinter rifle and can upgrade to a splinter cannon. It can take some of the DE vehicle upgrades

thx puma

See. I like reports like this. Simple points values. None of this "Oh it costs as much as a Grey Knight plus a Rhino with Extra Armour" bs.

Keep 'em coming.

Black Boxes going out this week. Look for Partner stores to have the Codex by this weekend. Looking forward to seeing mine.

inb4bandwagon

meh @ the rules, and ok @ the models.

i was hoping DE would be a top tier army, maybe people are thoeryhammering too much.

We haven't seen their rules so we don't know what 'tier' they are.

... as if that even matters...

For 440 points, Vect really better have a structure point or a shadowfield on top of 14 armor versus shooting.

Jesus.

H.B.M.C. wrote:We haven't seen their rules so we don't know what 'tier' they are.

... as if that even matters...

Amen to that matey.

The Tier System, a way of pinning the blame on anything but your own cockups after losing a game.

From what we have heard of the rules Dark Eldar sound like a very fun and exciting army to play that are very different then other armies. Looking at the rules for Grotesques and from what we know of Haemonculi I'm hoping the second wave will focus on Haemonculi cults, I want to be able to assemble my eldritch abomination army.

Deadshane1 wrote:Bye Bye lance spam too. (not a terrible things, all things considered)

Warriors 1pt more than current, needing 10 models for a Dark Lance option at the cost of a marine Power Fist.

Still not HORRIBLE, but probably better off putting their poison to good use against foot troopers.

Would this mean
20 Warriros w/ 2 dark lances - 230 pts

Defiler wrote:For 440 points, Vect really better have a structure point or a shadowfield on top of 14 armor versus shooting.

Jesus.

More like he's a 240pt special character that can ride in a Ravager (that has armour 14 I hope for 200pts). If you knock down the vehicle he probably just disembarks. Not that I know...but for points like that...I'm fairly certain that's how it will work out.

755pts to get you 4 Ravagers in your army with dark lances. All of which can shoot all weapons after moving 12 inches, and you get a 4+ to steal the initiative. I might be able to make a 2000 pt army out of that startup.

I always consider Vect as being too expensive.

About the Archon:

Archon model has access to the Huskblade, which causes Instant Death on any model that suffers an unsaved wound, regardless of their Toughness

Ouch!
How much will this blade cost? About 50 to 60 pts?

wuestenfux wrote:I always consider Vect as being too expensive.

About the Archon:

Archon model has access to the Huskblade, which causes Instant Death on any model that suffers an unsaved wound, regardless of their Toughness

Ouch!
How much will this blade cost? About 50 to 60 pts?

30, and his soul trap pyramid (the strength doubler after he kills an IC/MC) costs like 20.

*From memory, from rumors

Defiler wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:I always consider Vect as being too expensive.

About the Archon:

Archon model has access to the Huskblade, which causes Instant Death on any model that suffers an unsaved wound, regardless of their Toughness

Ouch!
How much will this blade cost? About 50 to 60 pts?

30, and his soul trap pyramid (the strength doubler after he kills an IC/MC) costs like 20.

*From memory, from rumors

30+20+ another 50 if the Shadowfield hasn't changed? 160p for a really fully equipped Archon. Sounds painful.

Sorry noob question; what does dark field do?

Shadow fields were 25 pts., 1 per army, gave the wearer +2 Inv save.