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The Mortarion thing is just terrible fluff courtesy of Matt Ward. It's best to ignore that sort of thing.

But Mortarion is still relatively weak among the Primarchs. He was extremely powerful compared to humans, but compared to over Primarchs he was slightly below average.

Draigo's fluff is not meant to be taken literally, it reads as an "epic tale" they probably tell Initiate Grey Knights as a bedtime story.

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:At least Magnus is definitely alive and kicking.

Well Russ is probably alive and definately kicking...ass.

No one has any idea of Russ's status. He could be dead in a ditch on an anonymous Daemon World for all we know. At least, as the reader, we know that Magnus is alive.

Again, some of the older fluff had Russ's status as "dying from mortal wounds" (maybe like Magnus punching his heart out of his chest type of wounds?) when he departed for the Eye. The last recent mention we have of him is from Battle of the Fang, where Magnus is all giddy and snide and secretive about Russ' current status, but implies it's far from good.

Well also, Russ is coming back for the end of Wolf time. Any wyas he is not confirmed dead until it is confirmed, so for now Russ is at most MIA.

Well the GK fluffs is crap anyway.

Omegus wrote:Draigo's fluff is not meant to be taken literally, it reads as an "epic tale" they probably tell Initiate Grey Knights as a bedtime story.

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:At least Magnus is definitely alive and kicking.

Well Russ is probably alive and definately kicking...ass.

No one has any idea of Russ's status. He could be dead in a ditch on an anonymous Daemon World for all we know. At least, as the reader, we know that Magnus is alive.

Again, some of the older fluff had Russ's status as "dying from mortal wounds" (maybe like Magnus punching his heart out of his chest type of wounds?) when he departed for the Eye. The last recent mention we have of him is from Battle of the Fang, where Magnus is all giddy and snide and secretive about Russ' current status, but implies it's far from good.

Can you send me a refeerence link please.

Warhammer 40,000 Chapter Approved - The Book of the Astronomicon, page 8

"Listen closely Brothers, for my life's breath is all but spent. There shall come a time far from now when our Chapter itself is dying, even as I am now dying, and our foes shall gather to destroy us. Then my children, I shall listen for your call in whatever realm of death holds me, and come I shall, no matter what the laws of life and death forbid. At the end I will be there. For the final battle. For the Wolftime." (last words of Leman Russ)

There is also a citation of that quote here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Leman_Russ_(primarch)

Granted, this harks back to 1988, when the principal writer was Rick Priestley (and 40K fluff didn't suck).

As for the Battle of the Fang reference, I'm not going to provide you a link to the whole book, but I'm sure a resourceful chap could find it on the internet if he were so inclined. It's a brief comment on p.565, where Magnus is soliloquizing that although Russ didn't take pleasure from what he did, Magnus would certainly enjoy ruining his gak, saying, "I am not the same as I was, and you're...well, let us not mention where you are now."

Omegus wrote:Warhammer 40,000 Chapter Approved - The Book of the Astronomicon, page 8

"Listen closely Brothers, for my life's breath is all but spent. There shall come a time far from now when our Chapter itself is dying, even as I am now dying, and our foes shall gather to destroy us. Then my children, I shall listen for your call in whatever realm of death holds me, and come I shall, no matter what the laws of life and death forbid. At the end I will be there. For the final battle. For the Wolftime." (last words of Leman Russ)

There is also a citation of that quote here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Leman_Russ_(primarch)

Granted, this harks back to 1988, when the principal writer was Rick Priestley (and 40K fluff didn't suck).

As for the Battle of the Fang reference, I'm not going to provide you a link to the whole book, but I'm sure a resourceful chap could find it on the internet if he were so inclined. It's a brief comment on p.565, where Magnus is soliloquizing that although Russ didn't take pleasure from what he did, Magnus would certainly enjoy ruining his gak, saying, "I am not the same as I was, and you're...well, let us not mention where you are now."

I ownds the book and every SW book book to just I'll take your word on it for now I don;t want to ruin the end I am half way thropugh the fang. but for some reason why has everybody forgotten about the garm incident involing the spear rus and magnus.

Are you talking about the William King novels? I lend about as little credence to those books as Goto's contributions, since they are written like comic books for adolescents (drinkin', fartin', and fightin' rounda galaxy, yeehaw!!), but as far as I am aware, those books do not feature Russ himself.

Omegus wrote:Are you talking about the William King novels? I lend about as little credence to those books as Goto's contributions, since they are written like comic books for adolescents (drinkin', fartin', and fightin' rounda galaxy, yeehaw!!), but as far as I am aware, those books do not feature Russ himself.

If you did take the time to read they give more information as to what happened during the fight, in which garm albeit russ stumbled and garm ran in with russ's spear stabbed Magnus which gave russ enogh time to then kick Magnus's butt. This is why thier is a giant shrine to garm housing the spear of russ all on the planet garm which is protected by the SW chapter.
Btw just because some one likes an thing that was directed at a tounger age does not degrade thier opinion or what the material is. For thier are a lot of things ment for a younger audience which can still make sense and entertain older people too. Becuase after that comment it made me view you as a
Crotchety Old Man and me being the young whipper snapper.

That would also explain your writing style.

But it's amusing to know that Magnus had Russ on the ropes twice but luck/interference by others saved his sorry hide. Better lucky than good, I suppose.

I don't beleieve in luck,in the flff.Tzeentch planned evrything.He planned the Heresy,he planned the Battle between Russ and Magnus,to get Magnus to become his Champion.The one thing he didn't plan was the Emperor.

iproxtaco wrote:When we say he 'killed' him, we mean he was banished.

What I don't get is how you banish a daemon when you're already in the warp, shouldn't they be invulnerable? Or reform two feet to the left after about 2 heart beats?

Also, During Istvaan 5, primarchs were scything down astartes like nothing, but both Magnus and Mortarion have been owned by a termie and a dreadnought, and a pair of termies, respectively.

Inconsistency.

Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuss!!!!!

Any man who can beat the Emperor in a drinking contest is easily the best by me. Then he goes out and generally kicks everyones asses in good ol' Space Wolves fashion. So what if the Thousand Son's were "Good Guys"? They were jerks anyways

Grey elder wrote:Well also, Russ is coming back for the end of Wolf time. Any wyas he is not confirmed dead until it is confirmed, so for now Russ is at most MIA.

Also, GW will never, ever, ever move the fluff forward, ever. Even though they could move it all the way up to 49,999 without having to rename the franchise.

It is not like there is nothing in the 42 millenium, lots of the Cain stuff is set in that time...

Grey elder wrote:Also I can Magnus was just a giant cry baby one little knock in the eye and a smack down and hes crumped and beaten, while Russ was stabbed through the heart by his mind powers, Which tells me Magnus can't take the pain.

Russ was the equivelant of a punk who talks hard but has him and his boys jump you so he can stand a chance. Magnus would have frankly crushed Russ had he directed his full attention to fighting him, rather than against the gigantic wolves Russ sicced on Magnus or the Space Wolves who would have interfered in the fight had Magnus not shielded them, or the Marines who attempted to go after the Sons he was protecting. Magnus was blind, it's kind of hard to fight when you can't see.

iproxtaco wrote:After he was backhanded by a single Grey Knight? It took about a hundred to take Angron and his goons downs.

Come on, is losing to Draigo really a bad feat?

Swiftblade wrote:Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuss!!!!!

Any man who can beat the Emperor in a drinking contest is easily the best by me. Then he goes out and generally kicks everyones asses in good ol' Space Wolves fashion. So what if the Thousand Son's were "Good Guys"? They were jerks anyways

The Rune Priest Ahriman befriended is one of the most unlikeable and despicable characters I have read about in any 40k fluff. Despite his monstrous arrogance, Magnus was actually a nice guy, and Ahriman was nice as well as humble.

The Wolves got pissy because some of them got owies after the Sons kicked their asses, a fight the Wolves started.

Deadshot wrote:I don't beleieve in luck,in the flff.Tzeentch planned evrything.He planned the Heresy,he planned the Battle between Russ and Magnus,to get Magnus to become his Champion.The one thing he didn't plan was the Emperor.

What Big Z forgot the condoms?

He is the god of pleasure, nobody is getting pleasure wearing a condom.

That is Slaanesh.I believe he joined up with Nurgle(who is immune to Tzeentch's changings),to make sure the machine was out.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:When we say he 'killed' him, we mean he was banished.

What I don't get is how you banish a daemon when you're already in the warp, shouldn't they be invulnerable? Or reform two feet to the left after about 2 heart beats?

Also, During Istvaan 5, primarchs were scything down astartes like nothing, but both Magnus and Mortarion have been owned by a termie and a dreadnought, and a pair of termies, respectively.

Inconsistency.

That's not how banishment works. Once banished, a Daemon then returns to become part of their God. They then must beg and plead to be reborn in the Warp.
Magnus, who had possessed another and had not arrived in his full form, was beaten by a Wolf Lord with a super powerful Spear used by another Primarch, and none other than the oldest Space Marine to ever live, Bjorn the Fell-handed. Not so sure about the second one though. We know he was beaten by Draigo, but when was he beaten by two Terminators? I ask out of a matter of interest and not to disprove it.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Grey elder wrote:Also I can Magnus was just a giant cry baby one little knock in the eye and a smack down and hes crumped and beaten, while Russ was stabbed through the heart by his mind powers, Which tells me Magnus can't take the pain.

Russ was the equivelant of a punk who talks hard but has him and his boys jump you so he can stand a chance. Magnus would have frankly crushed Russ had he directed his full attention to fighting him, rather than against the gigantic wolves Russ sicced on Magnus or the Space Wolves who would have interfered in the fight had Magnus not shielded them, or the Marines who attempted to go after the Sons he was protecting. Magnus was blind, it's kind of hard to fight when you can't see.

iproxtaco wrote:After he was backhanded by a single Grey Knight? It took about a hundred to take Angron and his goons downs.

Come on, is losing to Draigo really a bad feat?

Swiftblade wrote:Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuss!!!!!

Any man who can beat the Emperor in a drinking contest is easily the best by me. Then he goes out and generally kicks everyones asses in good ol' Space Wolves fashion. So what if the Thousand Son's were "Good Guys"? They were jerks anyways

The Rune Priest Ahriman befriended is one of the most unlikeable and despicable characters I have read about in any 40k fluff. Despite his monstrous arrogance, Magnus was actually a nice guy, and Ahriman was nice as well as humble.

The Wolves got pissy because some of them got owies after the Sons kicked their asses, a fight the Wolves started.

1. Umm...no? Magnus killed the wulfen THEN fought Russ. the SW didn't interfere because Russ told them not to. Magnus brought his full powers to bear, and yet wasn't as powerful as Russ.

2...

3. A fight that HORUS started. HORUS made them attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:When we say he 'killed' him, we mean he was banished.

What I don't get is how you banish a daemon when you're already in the warp, shouldn't they be invulnerable? Or reform two feet to the left after about 2 heart beats?

Also, During Istvaan 5, primarchs were scything down astartes like nothing, but both Magnus and Mortarion have been owned by a termie and a dreadnought, and a pair of termies, respectively.

Inconsistency.

That's not how banishment works. Once banished, a Daemon then returns to become part of their God. They then must beg and plead to be reborn in the Warp.
Magnus, who had possessed another and had not arrived in his full form, was beaten by a Wolf Lord with a super powerful Spear used by another Primarch, and none other than the oldest Space Marine to ever live, Bjorn the Fell-handed. Not so sure about the second one though. We know he was beaten by Draigo, but when was he beaten by two Terminators? I ask out of a matter of interest and not to disprove it.

Actually Magnus had just come into his full power on the material plane, the stupid explanation in the book was that he "forgot" to use his powers, but even so, that would mean he was martially inferior. And at that point in time Bjorn's age was less exceptional then it is now, due to it being set in the 32nd millenium.

The second one was Draigo and the former supreme grand master fighting together, and draigo was the one who survived, and so he became the SGM.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Grey elder wrote:Also I can Magnus was just a giant cry baby one little knock in the eye and a smack down and hes crumped and beaten, while Russ was stabbed through the heart by his mind powers, Which tells me Magnus can't take the pain.

Russ was the equivelant of a punk who talks hard but has him and his boys jump you so he can stand a chance. Magnus would have frankly crushed Russ had he directed his full attention to fighting him, rather than against the gigantic wolves Russ sicced on Magnus or the Space Wolves who would have interfered in the fight had Magnus not shielded them, or the Marines who attempted to go after the Sons he was protecting. Magnus was blind, it's kind of hard to fight when you can't see.

iproxtaco wrote:After he was backhanded by a single Grey Knight? It took about a hundred to take Angron and his goons downs.

Come on, is losing to Draigo really a bad feat?

Swiftblade wrote:Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuss!!!!!

Any man who can beat the Emperor in a drinking contest is easily the best by me. Then he goes out and generally kicks everyones asses in good ol' Space Wolves fashion. So what if the Thousand Son's were "Good Guys"? They were jerks anyways

The Rune Priest Ahriman befriended is one of the most unlikeable and despicable characters I have read about in any 40k fluff. Despite his monstrous arrogance, Magnus was actually a nice guy, and Ahriman was nice as well as humble.

The Wolves got pissy because some of them got owies after the Sons kicked their asses, a fight the Wolves started.

1. Umm...no? Magnus killed the wulfen THEN fought Russ. the SW didn't interfere because Russ told them not to. Magnus brought his full powers to bear, and yet wasn't as powerful as Russ.

So, Magnus brought his full powers to bear, had multiple things to concentrate on, such as keeping the Wulfen from attacking the Thousand Sons, and fighting Russ's two huge Wolves, and he still had the upper hand until Russ got lucky?

3. A fight that HORUS started. HORUS made them attack.

Are you trying to argue that it wasn't the Wolves fault? That's hilarious. As much as they were manipulated, they allowed themselves to be manipulated. They made the decision to attack, they were the ones that wanted to destroy the Sons, they didn't feel any remorse at all.

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Grey elder wrote:Also I can Magnus was just a giant cry baby one little knock in the eye and a smack down and hes crumped and beaten, while Russ was stabbed through the heart by his mind powers, Which tells me Magnus can't take the pain.

Russ was the equivelant of a punk who talks hard but has him and his boys jump you so he can stand a chance. Magnus would have frankly crushed Russ had he directed his full attention to fighting him, rather than against the gigantic wolves Russ sicced on Magnus or the Space Wolves who would have interfered in the fight had Magnus not shielded them, or the Marines who attempted to go after the Sons he was protecting. Magnus was blind, it's kind of hard to fight when you can't see.

iproxtaco wrote:After he was backhanded by a single Grey Knight? It took about a hundred to take Angron and his goons downs.

Come on, is losing to Draigo really a bad feat?

Swiftblade wrote:Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuss!!!!!

Any man who can beat the Emperor in a drinking contest is easily the best by me. Then he goes out and generally kicks everyones asses in good ol' Space Wolves fashion. So what if the Thousand Son's were "Good Guys"? They were jerks anyways

The Rune Priest Ahriman befriended is one of the most unlikeable and despicable characters I have read about in any 40k fluff. Despite his monstrous arrogance, Magnus was actually a nice guy, and Ahriman was nice as well as humble.

The Wolves got pissy because some of them got owies after the Sons kicked their asses, a fight the Wolves started.

1. Umm...no? Magnus killed the wulfen THEN fought Russ. the SW didn't interfere because Russ told them not to. Magnus brought his full powers to bear, and yet wasn't as powerful as Russ.

So, Magnus brought his full powers to bear, had multiple things to concentrate on, such as keeping the Wulfen from attacking the Thousand Sons, and fighting Russ's two huge Wolves, and he still had the upper hand until Russ got lucky?

3. A fight that HORUS started. HORUS made them attack.

Are you trying to argue that it wasn't the Wolves fault? That's hilarious. As much as they were manipulated, they allowed themselves to be manipulated. They made the decision to attack, they were the ones that wanted to destroy the Sons, they didn't feel any remorse at all.

1. He did NOT have multiple things to concentrate on. Russ ordered his men not to attack, and magnus did likewise. Russ did not get lucky. He lifted Magnus off the ground and severed his spine on his knee.

3. Whether or not they felt remorse is irrelivant, they fought against chaos marines, and they won.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Grey elder wrote:Also I can Magnus was just a giant cry baby one little knock in the eye and a smack down and hes crumped and beaten, while Russ was stabbed through the heart by his mind powers, Which tells me Magnus can't take the pain.

Russ was the equivelant of a punk who talks hard but has him and his boys jump you so he can stand a chance. Magnus would have frankly crushed Russ had he directed his full attention to fighting him, rather than against the gigantic wolves Russ sicced on Magnus or the Space Wolves who would have interfered in the fight had Magnus not shielded them, or the Marines who attempted to go after the Sons he was protecting. Magnus was blind, it's kind of hard to fight when you can't see.

iproxtaco wrote:After he was backhanded by a single Grey Knight? It took about a hundred to take Angron and his goons downs.

Come on, is losing to Draigo really a bad feat?

Swiftblade wrote:Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuss!!!!!

Any man who can beat the Emperor in a drinking contest is easily the best by me. Then he goes out and generally kicks everyones asses in good ol' Space Wolves fashion. So what if the Thousand Son's were "Good Guys"? They were jerks anyways

The Rune Priest Ahriman befriended is one of the most unlikeable and despicable characters I have read about in any 40k fluff. Despite his monstrous arrogance, Magnus was actually a nice guy, and Ahriman was nice as well as humble.

The Wolves got pissy because some of them got owies after the Sons kicked their asses, a fight the Wolves started.

1. Umm...no? Magnus killed the wulfen THEN fought Russ. the SW didn't interfere because Russ told them not to. Magnus brought his full powers to bear, and yet wasn't as powerful as Russ.

So, Magnus brought his full powers to bear, had multiple things to concentrate on, such as keeping the Wulfen from attacking the Thousand Sons, and fighting Russ's two huge Wolves, and he still had the upper hand until Russ got lucky?

3. A fight that HORUS started. HORUS made them attack.

Are you trying to argue that it wasn't the Wolves fault? That's hilarious. As much as they were manipulated, they allowed themselves to be manipulated. They made the decision to attack, they were the ones that wanted to destroy the Sons, they didn't feel any remorse at all.

1. He did NOT have multiple things to concentrate on. Russ ordered his men not to attack, and magnus did likewise. Russ did not get lucky. He lifted Magnus off the ground and severed his spine on his knee.

Yes he did. Russ's wolves, causing the planet to tear apart, stopping Russ's men from attacking, which Russ did not order to keep away. He dominated Russ until Russ flayled wildly after being blinded, which hit Magnus in the eye, a weak spot, IT WAS LUCK. Only after getting lucky did Russ break Magnus's back.

2. Whether or not they felt remorse is irrelivant, they fought against chaos marines, and they won.

It's absolutely relevant to the point you're making, which is that the assault on Prospero wasn't their doing. Obviously that's twaddle, they mercilessly attacked a fellow Legion without remorse after Horus and a lowly Custode persuaded them.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, During Istvaan 5, primarchs were scything down astartes like nothing, but both Magnus and Mortarion have been owned by a termie and a dreadnought, and a pair of termies, respectively.

Inconsistency.

Mortarion + bitchslapped, rended open, some dude's name carved into his heart, banished into the warp = owned.
Magnus + hit by ferocious attack, goes "ow" for a second, then "ohwait, i'm a primarch, lulz" and schools attacker = not owned.

As for the Russ vs. Magnus fight, it basically went back and forth, until Magnus punches Russ through the chest, then Russ' two gigantic wolves attack Magnus, Magnus kills them both, blasts Russ in the face and blinds him, Russ cries out like a bitch and "flailing blindly" grazes Magnus in the eye. Tzeench's fingerprints all over that last one.

I vote Magnus, but there really are NO "good" Primarchs. The so-called loyalists all serve a being who is basically Josef Stalin with psychic powers, and act accordingly. The so-called traitors for the most part just do what they and their loyalist brethren have always done, only more so and in the service of different powers. Magnus to me seems the least bad and the most sympathetic, and actually created a world that would have been worth living on. Just sayin'.

2. Whether or not they felt remorse is irrelivant, they fought against chaos marines, and they won.

At the time Thousand Sons were staunch loyalists taking full advantage of the human psycher gene that was thier, oh and the Emperors, birthright. branding them sorcerers and the accusation coming from a bunch of rune casting (wait is that Rus and Njord sorcery?) future werewolves is totally bananas. The wolves were just as lucky the murdermake wasn't sent after thier twisted genome. There are no wolves on Fenris. I love how we loyalists are so quick to forget that the legions that overtly represent werewolves and vampires are LOYALISTS. So sorcery isn't that far of a step. 40k fluff = no goddamn sense, but we all embrace it anyway.

Magnus was just a foreign bloke walking down the street,saw a bunch of his brothers kicking their Dad in the 'urty bitz,and called the police.When they came,they exported him for being a good citizen.


40k fluff=?,

40k fluff makes no goddamn sense
40k fluff = no goddamn sense. Sorry shorthand

im2randomghgh wrote:1. Umm...no? Magnus killed the wulfen THEN fought Russ. the SW didn't interfere because Russ told them not to. Magnus brought his full powers to bear, and yet wasn't as powerful as Russ.

2...

3. A fight that HORUS started. HORUS made them attack.

The second one was Draigo and the former supreme grand master fighting together, and draigo was the one who survived, and so he became the SGM.

1. I'm afraid not. Or rather, that happened as well, but that wasn't what I was referring to. The Space Wolves and Custodes were trying to wade through the water around the fight to strike at the Thousand Sons. Magnus, while fighting Russ, proceeded to turn the water to corrosive acid, killing them. And uh, no, the Space Wolves didn't interfere because of the psychic aura keeping them from interfering that Magnus created. Magnus was fighting Russ, killing Space Wolves and Custodes, killing the Wolves that Russ sicced on Magnus because he couldn't fight him alone, while also tearing Prospero apart psychically, preparing his spell to transport the Sons. Russ won with a lucky hit. Were Magnus to bring his full powers to bear on Russ, there is no doubt that he would have won.

3. Oh, I'm not talking about Prospero. I'm talking about Shrike. Where Russ sicced the Space Wolves on the Thousand Sons due to his profound hatred of books, and the Thousand Sons proceeded to fight back, kicking their asses, but doing so without injuring any of them. This made Russ and his Space Wolves butthurt.

Draigo actually beat Mortarion alone and unaided. The Grey Knights codex uses those exact words.

Considering there are at least two threads currently ablaze with dispute over im2randomghgh's uh... let's say creative recollection of the fluff, I'm surprised people are still falling for it.