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I honestly wonder how GW thought this through as mass numbers breaks the game imo and I will guarentte you this will be the new " nob biker "

For just 1000 points you can have 6 40 man stubbron units with Auto cannons.

Add in that you can also group Vendettas and then place SPecial weapon squads w/ Demo charges in them.


I seriously think we will see venetta special weapon spam.

Vets w/ 3 meltaguns (and a Vox) in a Chimera.

We have to find out if the Twin Link against MC/vehicles only applies to Heavy Weapons. But if it applies to all guns, then this squad is a real killer

You are looking at almost 70% kill rate against AV14

Vendettas look great on paper, but it will be interesting to see if it carries through to game.

AV12 is not the hardest thing to take out in the game (especially with out cover save), but with good placement you might be able to avoid the mass of anti tank fire...

BTW, I saw over at Warseer that Commisars have the EXACT options of who they accompany.

So, in other words, for a Commisar in a PHQ

Bolter, PW, Bolt pistol, Plasma Pistol, POWER FIST

And in a squad

Bolt pistol, plasma pistol, power weapon

So yeah, NON lord PF Commisars DO exist.

ph34r wrote:How is the lascannon more effective than the vanquisher cannon? The lascannon has 1 more str but loses d6 pen.

Doh - that's my bad on the math. Thanks for the catch. Should be only 7% - big difference. Sorry. So, with Pask, you're looking at a total of about 23% chance to kill AV14 in one round.

BoxANT wrote:Vets w/ 3 meltaguns (and a Vox) in a Chimera.

We have to find out if the Twin Link against MC/vehicles only applies to Heavy Weapons. But if it applies to all guns, then this squad is a real killer

You are looking at almost 70% kill rate against AV14

Again, though, if you want to use that Twin-Link Order with the Vets, even if they've got a vox, you still need to disembark them as you can't receive orders while in a Vehicle.

It's the Vanquisher that has the big melta-rule AT gun right?

It's 5 points more than a Russ, and you don't need the commander guy anyway. besides, if you don't target AV 14, it'll be WAY better at killing it. I mean, this is as close as possible to a tank that kills other tanks it has to be pretty good right?

augfubuoy wrote:It's the Vanquisher that has the big melta-rule AT gun right?

It's 5 points more than a Russ, and you don't need the commander guy anyway. besides, if you don't target AV 14, it'll be WAY better at killing it. I mean, this is as close as possible to a tank that kills other tanks it has to be pretty good right?

Yep, it's the Vanquisher. If you don't take the commander, your chance to kill AV14 drops from ~23% to ~18%. And yeah, if you shoot at things that aren't AV14, it gets better. But even if this does mean that it's a tank that can kill other tanks, it doesn't mean that it's good at it. Better than other Leman Russes? Yeah. But better than other things in the list, no.

Hey, I like the idea of the Vanquisher myself. But for those points and BS3... or even more points for BS4 and some potentially useful stuff... well, proxy it a few times and you'll see. Play it in 10 games, bring a notepad along, and track things. Heartbreaking every time you spend all those points and roll a miss. Or their cover save negates your shot.

Scottywan82 wrote:BTW, I saw over at Warseer that Commisars have the EXACT options of who they accompany.

So, in other words, for a Commisar in a PHQ

Bolter, PW, Bolt pistol, Plasma Pistol, POWER FIST

And in a squad

Bolt pistol, plasma pistol, power weapon

So yeah, NON lord PF Commisars DO exist.

Scottywan82 beat me to it, but here's the link to the Warseer page (110): http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188818&page=110

Other points from Mojaco's post: Iron Hand Straken; no FNP, but he does have a plasma pistol. (Edit: not sure how this fits in with the shotgun he reportedly has too).

The squad sergeants also get the same options as commissars in infantry squads: bolter, plasma pistol, power weapon (sorry no PF in the squads).
Having a commissar lord doesn't open up new commissar options.

Scottywan82 wrote:BTW, I saw over at Warseer that Commisars have the EXACT options of who they accompany.

So, in other words, for a Commisar in a PHQ

Bolter, PW, Bolt pistol, Plasma Pistol, POWER FIST

And in a squad

Bolt pistol, plasma pistol, power weapon

So yeah, NON lord PF Commisars DO exist.

This is the best news I've heard all day thank you!

NOOOOOO!!!!!! If Ironhand doesn't have FNP then he's totally not worth 95 extra points(NERD RAGE! ). Heck, he costs more than Creed does and even though he brawls a little better doesn't have the extra radius or orders to give (ie 4). If he doesn't have FNP then I don't think you'll ever see him. Pity since I was considering using him before I found out he was 95 points which is pretty steep.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

augfubuoy wrote:Am I the only person who noticed the big Leman Russ with the 72 inch Melta?

Put in the Knight, and it'll get the "melta" rule at 36" and be BS 4. Bye bye Landraiders!

For 200 or so points? No. Not worth it. 50% of your shots will be ignored by the cover they're in, and a further 3rd because of your own BS, then you've got to penetrate and roll on the damage chart. Each time you do this the number shrinks.

Does Pask not give Crack Shot anymore?

Feth, the reasons to actually buy this codex get smaller and smaller by the day. Right now I'm down to Vendettas, Creed+RR's, and 55 man squads with FNP. Oh yeah, and the drive by shooting Chimeras.

Actually, the Drive By Chimera army would be fun if you used the Genestealer Cult Limos...Genestealer Mafia! W00t!

Death By Monkeys wrote:

ph34r wrote:How is the lascannon more effective than the vanquisher cannon? The lascannon has 1 more str but loses d6 pen.

Doh - that's my bad on the math. Thanks for the catch. Should be only 7% - big difference. Sorry. So, with Pask, you're looking at a total of about 23% chance to kill AV14 in one round.

BoxANT wrote:Vets w/ 3 meltaguns (and a Vox) in a Chimera.

We have to find out if the Twin Link against MC/vehicles only applies to Heavy Weapons. But if it applies to all guns, then this squad is a real killer

You are looking at almost 70% kill rate against AV14

Again, though, if you want to use that Twin-Link Order with the Vets, even if they've got a vox, you still need to disembark them as you can't receive orders while in a Vehicle.

That is true, however, unless you can get to an enemy tank with a 6" move (and be within 6" of the hatch for meltaguns), you will probably be moving 12" and therefore need to disembark to even be able to shoot.

And lets not forget that Vets are a 10man squad instead of 5, so they will be able to take a little bit more fire (although still die just as quickly in assault).


So ALL our Infantry squads can take hidden Power Swords? Wow, that is ..... strange. It would be almost funny to have a 51man squad lead by a Commissar and 5 Sgts all with PWs. Would be very amusing


Hell through a Vox in there, and have Creed give them FC Oh that would be just too much fun

Pity the power weapon has jumped to an absurd 10 points though. *sigh* 5 points was a really good deal in the current Guard Codex. Sure, you didn't use them because 5 points spent on a power weapon was 5 points not spent on Iron Discipline or more guns, but it was a reasonable price.

10 points isn't.

I'm happy to hear that Power Fist Commissars do still exist, maybe not in squads, but at least more than just the Commissar Lord. Commissar Calgar is also very happy to hear this, even though he doesn't use a Power Fist, just his Bolt Pistol of Ultmate Justice (R12 Strength D Assault 2).

I may not like it, but I can see their logic.

"Lets give Infantry Sgts access to PWs... but bump them to 10pts a pop so no one actually takes them."



Well, at least those crazy "CC Guardsmen" commanders can give a little cheer.

BoxANT wrote:I may not like it, but I can see their logic.

"Lets give Infantry Sgts access to PWs... but bump them to 10pts a pop so no one actually takes them."

That's logic is it?

Chances are it's more simplistic than that:

To them Power Weapon = Ignore armour save = Dangerous.

And that's it. The thought process goes no further than that. No accounting for who's using the power weapon, the cost of the models involved, the role of the squad that model is with, how tough or fragile, strong or weak, armour save, initiative nothing. It's just power weapons = Ignore armour save = Dangerous and that's all they think about.

How else do you explain 10 point power weapons a 15 point power fists on WS3 T3 I3 W1 guys...

The same way you explain Ogryns and Lictors.

My marine sergeants pay 15 for power weapons and 25 for fists. Only advantage is ws/str 4, but the weapon itself is 50% more expensive(making my sergeant almost as expensive as your squad). It doesn't seem that bad to me.

Pity the power weapon has jumped to an absurd 10 points though. *sigh* 5 points was a really good deal in the current Guard Codex. Sure, you didn't use them because 5 points spent on a power weapon was 5 points not spent on Iron Discipline or more guns, but it was a reasonable price.

Considering everyone else was paying 3 times as much for the exact same thing I don't think you're in that good of a place to whine about it. The new 10 point cost is still pretty good given the number of attacks the commissar has and its loss of the independent character status.

How else do you explain 10 point power weapons a 15 point power fists on WS3 T3 I3 W1 guys...

Mine are 50% more expensive, you want to trade?

:edit: I mean seriously, boo hoo, you kill one tactical marine, let alone anything of actual value with that fist and you've made your points back.

Except your fist is being guarded by those same marines Shuma. The IG fist would be lucky to even get a chance to roll.

stonefox wrote:Except your fist is being guarded by those same marines Shuma. The IG fist would be lucky to even get a chance to roll.

Not when its in a 40 man squad... Even then, guess what you just lost with that 15 points? Less than I pay for my most basic (non scout) trooper. It's less likely to get to hit and weaker fore sure, which is why it's considerably less points (percentage wise).

ShumaGorath wrote:

stonefox wrote:Except your fist is being guarded by those same marines Shuma. The IG fist would be lucky to even get a chance to roll.

Not when its in a 40 man squad... Even then, guess what you just lost with that 15 points? Less than I pay for my most basic (non scout) trooper. It's less likely to get to hit and weaker fore sure, which is why it's considerably less points (percentage wise).

Can't get a PF in a 40man squad (that isn't a IC).

BoxANT wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

stonefox wrote:Except your fist is being guarded by those same marines Shuma. The IG fist would be lucky to even get a chance to roll.

Not when its in a 40 man squad... Even then, guess what you just lost with that 15 points? Less than I pay for my most basic (non scout) trooper. It's less likely to get to hit and weaker fore sure, which is why it's considerably less points (percentage wise).

Can't get a PF in a 40man squad (that isn't a IC).

Ameobad squads can't have sergeants?

ShumaGorath, i can't beleive you're trying to make this arguement!?!?

oh wait, it's you. i forgot for a second! silly me.

ShumaGorath wrote:My marine sergeants pay 15 for power weapons and 25 for fists. Only advantage is ws/str 4, but the weapon itself is 50% more expensive(making my sergeant almost as expensive as your squad). It doesn't seem that bad to me.

They were, in the last Marine Codex and the Real Chaos Codex, 10 for the PW and 15 for the Fist, and they were priced well. They were priced that way as the model often has less attacks than an IC, hence the reason why IC's paid slightly more (15/25 for the PW/PF compared to 10/15 for the PW/PF on the Unit Character). In comparison, the 5 point PW and 10 point (or was it 15?) PW/PF for Guard made sense.

Only when Codex Bland Angels came out did the price shoot back to 25 points for a Marine Fist and even though, in comparison, the price difference is largley the same, it's the wrong price on the Marine in the first place. Then they go and use that for the benchmark price, and we end up with a choice no one will take.

As for "boo hoo"-ing, the Power Weapon will never make its points back. You know why? Becuase it's too expensive to be bothered with. 10 points nets you 2 Flamers. 2 Grenade Launchers. 1 Meltagun. 2 Heavy Bolters. 1 Autocannon for feth's sake. All of these weapons will have an impact on the game. A power weapon in the hands of a pathetic basic Guardsmen will not.

Guard are a shooting army (obvious statement is obvious), so overcosting their meagre HTH abilities just makes Guard players take more guns.

Guard are a shooting army (obvious statement is obvious), so overcosting their meagre HTH abilities just makes Guard players take more guns.

And undercosting it just gives them an unfair advantage. I'm sure things were nice and cool back when the old codex and the "real" chaos codex were legal. But they aren't any more. If you had a price advantage back then you would have an even bigger one now. A stupidly large one. You don't get to pay a third what I do for a power weapon. You don't have a third the attacks.

As for "boo hoo"-ing, the Power Weapon will never make its points back. You know why? Becuase it's too expensive to be bothered with. 10 points nets you 2 Flamers. 2 Grenade Launchers. 1 Meltagun. 2 Heavy Bolters. 1 Autocannon for feth's sake. All of these weapons will have an impact on the game. A power weapon in the hands of a pathetic basic Guardsmen will not.

Yeah, and why would you take a lascanon weapons team when you can get the vendetta? Why would you get ogryn when you can just get 80 penal legionaires? Your army is a swarmy shooting army with big tanks, taking anything else isn't playing to your overwhelming strength. Being in close combat means you're doing it wrong, just because you do better at something else doesn't mean your combat choices are overcosted. Also i'm not saying the ogryn are good they aren't and the vendetta is slowed. I'm just saying that for your combat choices to be useful it would have to be useful for you to be in combat.

ShumaGorath, i can't beleive you're trying to make this arguement!?!?

oh wait, it's you. i forgot for a second! silly me.

You have the music tastes of a 26 year old mcdonalds cook.

ShumaGorath wrote:And undercosting it just gives them an unfair advantage ... If you had a price advantage back then you would have an even bigger one now. A stupidly large one. You don't get to pay a third what I do for a power weapon. You don't have a third the attacks.

Unfair advantage? Guardsmen having an unfair advantage with 5 point wepaons?

Reality check Shummy - we're talking about Guardsmen, the single worst HTH force in the game ('cept maybe Tau, but who cares about those blue-skinned xenos freaks). Don't have 1/3rd the attacks? Try having 1 less strength - that's a massive difference in a D6 based system. You wound with half your attacks. I get 1/3rd my hits as wounds. You hit me 2/3rds of the time, I only hit you half the time... assuming I get to swing, given that you swing before me.

So, again, reality check Shummy - these are Guardsmen.

Unfair advantage? Guardsmen getting an 'unfair advantage' in assault??? ROLF! Jesus Christ on a pogo stick that's just insane...

Have a few questions.

1. Can Vanquishers shoot battle cannon shells like they can in Armored Company list? If so they wouldn't be so bad.

2. Are Valkyrie, Leman Russ and Artillery Squadrons constrained by the usual squadron rules (have to stay within 4 inches of each other, immoblized = destroyed etc) or do they operate like Zoanthropes?

3. Is the VTOL rumor that Valkyries can move and fire all in the codex?

4. Can you put allied Daemon Hunter Inquisitor + 2 mystics in a Valkyrie?

Unfair advantage? Guardsmen having an unfair advantage with 5 point wepaons?

Yeah, my power fist sergeant costs more than your squad. So yeah, unfair advantage. I'm sorry you feel like your force is unplayably weak all the time and that you want everything to be cheaper all the time but seriously your wrong. You said 25 point sentinels earlier in this thread, you said that the plastmatank was too expensive at 210, you complained that the OLD power weapon for the commissar at 5 points was just "okay". Your bad at assigning things point values.

I guess I don't buy the argument of "well, IG aren't good at HtH, so it doesn't matter how much their power weapons are."

HtH is a reality of 40k, and allowing squads to buy reasonably cheap power weapons allows for some additional punch. I mean, things should be valued at roughly what they're worth, with adjustments if something should be more or less common. Taking into account the combat potential, it seems to me that 10pts is probably a bit high for a weapon that will probably fail to kill anything.

I also don't buy the argument that IG are bad in combat, and simply should deal with it. There's no reason for IG to be bad in combat other than GW never really desiging a guard codex that could take the fight to the enemy. Every codex in the game can stand and shoot to one extent or another, but IG collapse in HtH regardless of what was done. 5pt Power weapons wouldn't change that, but it would help make a 10 man IG Squads charging into cover more effective.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Unfair advantage? Guardsmen having an unfair advantage with 5 point wepaons?

Yeah, my power fist sergeant costs more than your squad. So yeah, unfair advantage. I'm sorry you feel like your force is unplayably weak all the time and that you want everything to be cheaper all the time but seriously your wrong. You said 25 point sentinels earlier in this thread, you said that the plastmatank was too expensive at 210, you complained that the OLD power weapon for the commissar at 5 points was just "okay". Your bad at assigning things point values.

Actually, even at 5pts hardly anybody bought power weapons for their IG characters. Fair Market value is often defined as "what a willing buyer would pay to a willing seller with neither having a compulsion to buy or sell and both having a full appreciation of the facts." If you try selling something at a price, and nobody buys, you're asking too much.

They could make Power weapons free on Officers, and they wouldn't be undercosted.

And stop with the whole "my sergeant costs more than your squad" nonsense. A space marine sgt w/ fist costs roughly 52pts, and nobody is going to field IG without at least a special weapon.