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Nope, he only adds to the squad. Yeah, good fire support.

Yummy... its better than a heavy weapon squad.

When you think Harker is relentless so he can fire his hb on the move.

Hmmm, something just hit me and I don't recall having seen it mentioned.
The IG squad is still a 10-man squad, right? Or is that just an assaumption? Reason I ask is the 2-wound heavy weapon, ie a single man with two-wounds, not two men with 1 wound each.
So is the squad 9 men, one of which has two wounds, or 10 men, still with one having two wounds. Basically, is an IG squad 10 or 11 wounds now?

Edit: Never mind, think I found it. To add a HW, you pull two regular guys from the squad, so 9 models/10 wounds it is, if a HW is in the squad.

quesitons for that nice "middle" chap:

-does the Devil Dog`s weapon have the "melta" rule or an always 1extra dice for ap rule?

-how exactly works the hellhoundweapon (whole template within 12" or small part of the template within 12", miss if you placed it out of 12" or do you messure and then place it?)

-can the lord commissar give orders (if yes 1or2?)?

-no refractorfields for non spez.chars.?

-does the "platoon-command-leader" has a powerfist option?

thx and greetings Badger

DBM: Possibly you could put an AC in that squad as the HW instead of the HB. You would get some light vehicle/MC killing goodness that matches the plasma Str, and only lose one HB shot in the process.
Then again, the range and points don't line up as nicely...

Badger wrote:-no refractorfields for non spez.chars.?

-does the "platoon-command-leader" has a powerfist option?

Middle answered both of these in his summaries. Company Commanders(Officer in Company Command Squad) has a Refractor Field Standard. Platoon Commanders have the same Weapon Options as Company Commanders.

Badger wrote:-does the Devil Dog`s weapon have the "melta" rule or an always 1extra dice for ap rule?

And according to the French summary the melta cannon does, indeed, have the melta rule. I was hoping the extra dice no matter the range, too.

Wehrkind wrote:DBM: Possibly you could put an AC in that squad as the HW instead of the HB. You would get some light vehicle/MC killing goodness that matches the plasma Str, and only lose one HB shot in the process.
Then again, the range and points don't line up as nicely...

That's not a bad thought, actually, particularly if you're mounting them in a Chimera - that way you get Multilaser, Plasma, and AC that can all kill light vehicles.

I like the idea of the Devildog, especially with the MM Hull mount... but my concern is how many guns can they fire when moving? If they're fast can they fire the Meltacannon and MM when moving 6"?

That's my take on it. It'll take some careful planning to get your movement right so you can do it that way.

I don't see any reason why they couldn't, thats what fast vehicles do. What advantage does it have over a vendetta though? Cover I guess?

It's uhh... none. It would cost 15 points more than the Vendy in that Config (Meltacannon + MM), so, yeah, why bother.

I really want to see someone model their Valk with their troops repelling down and out.

Gestalt wrote:I don't see any reason why they couldn't, thats what fast vehicles do. What advantage does it have over a vendetta though? Cover I guess?

A couple reasons, most of which come down to being a cheap bastard:

1) You're a cheap bastard and don't want to buy and convert a Vendetta,
2) You've already got spare Hellhounds that are now going to waste that you might as well convert to a Devil Dog and you're a cheap bastard and don't want to buy and convert a Vendetta,
3) You want to keep with the mechanized/armor company theme...and you're a cheap bastard and don't want to buy and convert a Vendetta.

I'll fully admit that I'm a cheap bastard and don't want to buy and convert Vendettas. I did the math last night and before tax and shipping and bitz for conversion, you're talking $522 for 3 full squadrons of Valks. Or by buying through the Warstore, you're looking at $417.60. Or, if you decide this makes it worth it to join Bit Kingdom's Inner Circle (and I am considering this for this purchase), you're looking at $363.20 ($313.20 for the models + $50 for the Inner Circle membership - and, oh yes, they are still available.)

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's uhh... none. It would cost 15 points more than the Vendy in that Config (Meltacannon + MM), so, yeah, why bother.

So wait...

Seriously... is there any reason, any reason at ALL to take ANYTHING else for AT than 3 Vendettas? At first I was thinking that atleast tanks and infantry get cover saves more often (Since the Valk is so huge and the Vendy won't be moving that fast usually) but that seems a piddling reason to take them over the flying, tank busting power house.

Personally I'm never fielding one because it's A: Clearly not well thought out, rules, model, or fluffwise, and B: I'm sticking to fluffy armies. Min maxing be damned!!

aka_mythos wrote:I really want to see someone model their Valk with their troops repelling down and out.

Totally doing that when/if Plastic STs drop (no pun intended).

Such a cool friggin idea.

I may even paint my Valkyrie black, and my Stormtroopers in Desert Camo... Or is that too much?

I think I would only take 2 Vendettas for normal sized games. The third slot might be RR or sentinels. They are large, flying, and AV12. I dont expect them to have a long lifespan once they are on board so I don't want to put too much points into them and have overkill. Plus I am also a cheap bastard as above.

My take at what seems like a good core unit for the army.

-3 Infantry Squads (150 points)
-Special weapon x3 (15+ points)
I think a good argument can be made for any of them, so I'll leave selection of which type as an exercise for the reader.
-3x Meltabombs on Sergeants (15 points)
-Commissar w/ Meltabombs (40 points)
-1 Vox (5 points)

Total: 225 Points, or a little less than a Marine Squad

Notable Features:
-31 Wounds
-27 Lasguns, 54 shots at long range with FRFSRF, 81 at short range
-3 Special weapons that will be around forever
-Ld9 and Stubborn
-One order affects the whole bunch, get the the objective fast with Run! Shoot stuff with FRFSRF!
-They can shoot up hordes pretty well, they can shoot up tough troops pretty well, 4 meltabombs mean they're a little scary to tanks and even walkers in close combat.
-Scoring, and cover a lot of potential area to claim/contest objectives.

In summary, they're fairly mobile (with Run!), they're incredibly durable, and they a short range threat zone where they can really lay the hurt.

Any thoughts?

AlexCage wrote:Personally I'm never fielding one because it's A: Clearly not well thought out, rules, model, or fluffwise, and B: I'm sticking to fluffy armies. Min maxing be damned!!

Personally I'm not fielding any because I'm happy living in my own little world where there are only two Imperial Guard helicopter equivs - the Valk and the Vult. The Vendy doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned until a model is made.

In the meantime, my ISTs will ride in a sextet of regular Valks, the way the Emperor intended it to be!

A couple reasons, most of which come down to being a cheap bastard:

More reliable way of destroying AR14 might be a reason. Lets see. Vendetta has about a 12% chance to destroy AR14, meltahound has about 25.5% if within 12" (assuming 1" scatter is still over the target -- this stat is prolly debateable).

However for pure capability you are better off with the vet squad in a chimera w/ 3 MG since they have a 47.7% chance, if within melta range, for 10 more points then the meltahound. And of course range and mobility are a big factor in each choice too.

winterman wrote:However for pure capability you are better off with the vet squad in a chimera w/ 3 MG since they have a 47.7% chance, if within melta range, for 10 more points then the meltahound. And of course range and mobility are a big factor in each choice too.

Funny how the more things change, the more they stay the same. What were IG's biggest tank killers in the previous codex? 3x melta Vet Squads. Granted, we can't just drop them like we used to, but you're right - these guys are going to continue to be a staple for the Guard. I think a lot of players (myself included) were really hoping to see a greater selection of effective ways of killing tanks that didn't involve Vet Squads. C'est la vie.

winterman wrote:

A couple reasons, most of which come down to being a cheap bastard:

More reliable way of destroying AR14 might be a reason. Lets see. Vendetta has about a 12% chance to destroy AR14, meltahound has about 25.5% if within 12" (assuming 1" scatter is still over the target -- this stat is prolly debateable).

However for pure capability you are better off with the vet squad in a chimera w/ 3 MG since they have a 47.7% chance, if within melta range, for 10 more points then the meltahound. And of course range and mobility are a big factor in each choice too.

How much better does this get if you have Creed give the vet squad the Bring it Down order (twin-linked!)?

I was already leaning toward three vet squads in Chimeras with a mix of plasma guns and meltas. Now you've got me considering more meltas than plasma guns with these squads. I'm going to have to playtest three or four different lists now.

Granted, that means you have to off-load them from the Chimera for them to receive that order, but yeah, it's not a bad idea at all.

AlexCage wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's uhh... none. It would cost 15 points more than the Vendy in that Config (Meltacannon + MM), so, yeah, why bother.

So wait...

Seriously... is there any reason, any reason at ALL to take ANYTHING else for AT than 3 Vendettas? At first I was thinking that atleast tanks and infantry get cover saves more often (Since the Valk is so huge and the Vendy won't be moving that fast usually) but that seems a piddling reason to take them over the flying, tank busting power house.

Personally I'm never fielding one because it's A: Clearly not well thought out, rules, model, or fluffwise, and B: I'm sticking to fluffy armies. Min maxing be damned!!

aka_mythos wrote:I really want to see someone model their Valk with their troops repelling down and out.

Totally doing that when/if Plastic STs drop (no pun intended).

Such a cool friggin idea.

I may even paint my Valkyrie black, and my Stormtroopers in Desert Camo... Or is that too much?

I think a few people might have missed my write-up of the 'great vendetta scare of 2009' in this very thread (page 14 bottom)... Go back afew pages and read please. Vendetta is good, but not the only show in town.

As far as why you'd want to take a devildog over a vendetta. That's easy... armor 14.

vendetta at 1-48" range, 2.25 lascannon hits 0.37 glances and 0.37 pens, each pen has a 33% chance to destroy. 0% on the glance.
1 in 10 rounds of shooting will destroy an armor 14 vehicle.

devildog at 13-24" range, 1 melta hit 0.37 glances, glance destroys 16%
1 in 20 rounds of shooting will destroy an armor 14 vehicle.

devildog at 1-12" range, 1 melta hit 0.13 glance 0.55 pen, each pen has a 50% chance to destroy, each glance has a 16% chance.
1 in 4 rounds of shooting will destroy an armor 14 vehicle.

While the long range shots of the devildog are only 50% as effective, the close range shots are 250% as effective. And seeing as how the armor 14 that I'm really concerned about is a land raider, and will be closing with my gunline rapidly, i can see taking a devildog instead of a vendetta.

If I needed a place to put some scoring units I could certainly see choosing the vendetta, but it is indeed a choice. Not a "no-brainer"


edit: thx ph34r, applied the change.

You also taking into account a hull-mounted MM on the Devil Dog, there, Shep?

*Edit: Nevermind, I figure you must be by looking at the numbers...my bad.

I think you mean at close range the devildog is 250% as effective, or 150% more effective.

Am I the only person who noticed the big Leman Russ with the 72 inch Melta?

Put in the Knight, and it'll get the "melta" rule at 36" and be BS 4. Bye bye Landraiders!

Oh, I could just get some vets anyway, but I'm just thinking...

-A.

Pretty sure the vanquisher cannon always gets the additional d6 pen, not just at half range.

augfubuoy wrote:Am I the only person who noticed the big Leman Russ with the 72 inch Melta?

Put in the Knight, and it'll get the "melta" rule at 36" and be BS 4. Bye bye Landraiders!

For 200 or so points? No. Not worth it. 50% of your shots will be ignored by the cover they're in, and a further 3rd because of your own BS, then you've got to penetrate and roll on the damage chart. Each time you do this the number shrinks.

Well, for the sake of this exercise, let's say they're in the open. You'll hit 66% of the time. With Pask's +1 to pen, you're effectively S9, so you need 6 or better on 2d6 (as it's AP2, no kill on a glance) - ~72%. Then, a 5 or 6 to kill - 33%. That brings it down to 15.7%

Along with the lascannon (S10 with Pask), you're looking at another ~20% chance.

So, between the two weapons, you've got about a 36% chance. Still not as good as the Devil Dog up close or melta vets.

How is the lascannon more effective than the vanquisher cannon? The lascannon has 1 more str but loses d6 pen.