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im2randomghgh wrote:
In that 1 astartes is supposed to be worth 100 men, but is worth nothing like that on the TT.

It is stated that one Astartes is equal 300 ordinary Humans. But that is not so true in fluff and in TT. When is the last time you saw 1 marine kill 300 Guardsman?
Most Marines are either fighting with IG or fighting a fast preemptive strikes. 1 Marine alone in fluff cannot match 300 IG. Only specialist can do that ( Terminators, Grey Knights etc... ).

So according to that, Power Armour does offer more protection and has a lot more additional features. Does Crisis armour have hostile environment capability?

iproxtaco wrote:
It isn't stated, its logical common sense. Do you want you're hundred man Imperial Guard army slaughtered by a single tactical squad? That would make for a very boring and fast game. No one would want to play that. They have no balance it out.

No, if fluff that one tactical squad would be would be slaughtered by those hundred Guardsman if they have good training and good equipment.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
It isn't stated, its logical common sense. Do you want your hundred man Imperial Guard army slaughtered by a single tactical squad? That would make for a very boring and fast game. No one would want to play that. They have no balance it out.

No, if fluff that one tactical squad would be would be slaughtered by those hundred Guardsman if they have good training and good equipment.

Uh...not usually.

The kinds of Guardsmen who would be going against a Tactical Squad would be malnourished, corrupted, and with weapons in such crummy states of repair they'd make Nurgle wince.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

In witch rulebook is that stated? Or codex?

Deathwatch: Astartes Power armor (basic): 8 all over, 10 on the body, helmet features (additional features: LOTS)

BoM: Sororitas Armor: 6 all over, 8 on the body, helmet features: targeting, rebreather and comm link

Deathwatch: Tau Crisis Suit: 9 all over (additional features: LOTS)

Deathwatch: Tau Fire warrior armor: 6 all over, targeting, rebreather, and microbead comm link

Dark Heresy: Carapace: 5 all over, 6 on the chest, 4 on the head.

Same as in codex. Sisters and Marines have better armor than Tau FW. And are you implementing that Astartes armor is even better than Crisis?
And is that carpace for Guardsman or Stormtrooper?

iproxtaco wrote:So according to that, Power Armour does offer more protection and has a lot more additional features. Does Crisis armour have hostile environment capability?

It's fully sealed, so yes. Power armor offer better chest protection and weaker protection in other locations. The crisis suit has a billion variants, and each are different, so it's hard ot make an exact comparison between them. Hwoever, the crisis suit by default carries a heavy weapon, which it has enough spare generator power to run it's heavy weapon indefinitely, with the exception of missile launchers. They also spoilsport, so kill one and BOOM.

Kanluwen wrote:
The kinds of Guardsmen who would be going against a Tactical Squad would be malnourished, corrupted, and with weapons in such crummy states of repair they'd make Nurgle wince.

Depends on if they're with the Tau or ruinous powers. The tau seem to actually take care of their pets, which could explain a great deal of their results with PDF.

Guardsmen wear flak armor.
Stormtroopers wear carapace.
Sisters wear a dumbed down version of Astartes Power Armor, with a lot of the features not being present because they don't have the physiology or the enhancements of the Astartes.
Astartes Power Armor is basically as good as you can get in a 'mass' produced format.
Artificer Armor is another step up.

Crisis Suits may have a bit more armor in places than the standard Astartes armor, which isn't too unbelievable all things considered. But the armor is still the same thickness/material as Astartes armor--which means Bolters/Heavy Bolters can punch through it(feasibly).

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
It isn't stated, its logical common sense. Do you want you're hundred man Imperial Guard army slaughtered by a single tactical squad? That would make for a very boring and fast game. No one would want to play that. They have no balance it out.

No, if fluff that one tactical squad would be would be slaughtered by those hundred Guardsman if they have good training and good equipment.

In fluff those Space Marines would win easily, but that's not the point. You can't use in-game rules to debate the capabilities of FLUFF.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The kinds of Guardsmen who would be going against a Tactical Squad would be malnourished, corrupted, and with weapons in such crummy states of repair they'd make Nurgle wince.

Depends on if they're with the Tau or ruinous powers. The tau seem to actually take care of their pets, which could explain a great deal of their results with PDF.

Most of the 'Guardsmen' with the Tau aren't. They're raised up, but not trained to the same general standards as you'd see in many Guard regiments.

Plus if the fluff is to believed, the PDF are stupid and do whatever the ruling caste of the planet tells them to. You'll find a few objectors, but mostly they just listen to the nobles because hey--they're nobles.

Kanluwen wrote:Guardsmen wear flak armor.
Stormtroopers wear carapace.
Sisters wear a dumbed down version of Astartes Power Armor, with a lot of the features not being present because they don't have the physiology or the enhancements of the Astartes.
Astartes Power Armor is basically as good as you can get in a 'mass' produced format.
Artificer Armor is another step up.

Crisis Suits may have a bit more armor in places than the standard Astartes armor, which isn't too unbelievable all things considered. But the armor is still the same thickness/material as Astartes armor--which means Bolters/Heavy Bolters can punch through it(feasibly).

I wouldn't call astartes armor mass produced.

There are also grenadiers, which are IG trained and equipped on par with stormtroopers, but they are also equipped with storm trooper gear (hellguns, carapace, etc.)


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Kanluwen wrote:
Most of the 'Guardsmen' with the Tau aren't. They're raised up, but not trained to the same general standards as you'd see in many Guard regiments.

Plus if the fluff is to believed, the PDF are stupid and do whatever the ruling caste of the planet tells them to. You'll find a few objectors, but mostly they just listen to the nobles because hey--they're nobles.

Hmm. I'll point out that the fluff doesn't say that one way or the other. In fluff the IG sneer at PDF, but it's also pointed out that some PDF are easily the equal to IG, so like anything else, it's a mixed bag of conflicting info.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

In witch rulebook is that stated? Or codex?

Deathwatch: Astartes Power armor (basic): 8 all over, 10 on the body, helmet features (Too damn many to mention)

BoM: Sororitas Armor: 6 all over, 8 on the body, helmet features: targeting, rebreather and comm link

Deathwatch: Tau Crisis Suit: 9 all over (additional features: LOTS)

Deathwatch: Tau Fire warrior armor: 6 all over, targeting, rebreather, and microbead comm link

Dark Heresy: Carapace: 5 all over, 6 on the chest, 4 on the head.

...cool...

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Guardsmen wear flak armor.
Stormtroopers wear carapace.
Sisters wear a dumbed down version of Astartes Power Armor, with a lot of the features not being present because they don't have the physiology or the enhancements of the Astartes.
Astartes Power Armor is basically as good as you can get in a 'mass' produced format.
Artificer Armor is another step up.

Crisis Suits may have a bit more armor in places than the standard Astartes armor, which isn't too unbelievable all things considered. But the armor is still the same thickness/material as Astartes armor--which means Bolters/Heavy Bolters can punch through it(feasibly).

I wouldn't call astartes armor mass produced.

There are also grenadiers, which are IG trained and equipped on par with stormtroopers, but they are also equipped with storm trooper gear (hellguns, carapace, etc.)

He did emphasis the mass part. Relative to artificer and terminator, regular astartes amour is mass produced.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Guardsmen wear flak armor.
Stormtroopers wear carapace.
Sisters wear a dumbed down version of Astartes Power Armor, with a lot of the features not being present because they don't have the physiology or the enhancements of the Astartes.
Astartes Power Armor is basically as good as you can get in a 'mass' produced format.
Artificer Armor is another step up.

Crisis Suits may have a bit more armor in places than the standard Astartes armor, which isn't too unbelievable all things considered. But the armor is still the same thickness/material as Astartes armor--which means Bolters/Heavy Bolters can punch through it(feasibly).

I wouldn't call astartes armor mass produced.

Hence the 'mass' part. Astartes armor was, at one point, mass produced. There's still production lines for it--but production has been slowed down a bit to where you get individual parts from different marks being sent over.

There are also grenadiers, which are IG trained and equipped on par with stormtroopers, but they are also equipped with storm trooper gear (hellguns, carapace, etc.)

Yeah, but Grenadiers for all intents and purposes are considered 'Stormtroopers' in regimental terms.

Kanluwen wrote:
Most of the 'Guardsmen' with the Tau aren't. They're raised up, but not trained to the same general standards as you'd see in many Guard regiments.

Plus if the fluff is to believed, the PDF are stupid and do whatever the ruling caste of the planet tells them to. You'll find a few objectors, but mostly they just listen to the nobles because hey--they're nobles.

Hmm. I'll point out that the fluff doesn't say that one way or the other. In fluff the IG sneer at PDF, but it's also pointed out that some PDF are easily the equal to IG, so like anything else, it's a mixed bag of conflicting info.

In many cases where the PDF are "easily equal to the IG"--the PDF is really just a PDF in name only.
Take the Cadian Interior Guard for example. They're considered a PDF--but it's several fully trained and blooded Cadian Shock Troop Regiments that are permanently garrisoned on Cadia.

Kanluwen wrote:Guardsmen wear flak armor.
Stormtroopers wear carapace.
Sisters wear a dumbed down version of Astartes Power Armor, with a lot of the features not being present because they don't have the physiology or the enhancements of the Astartes.
Astartes Power Armor is basically as good as you can get in a 'mass' produced format.
Artificer Armor is another step up.

Crisis Suits may have a bit more armor in places than the standard Astartes armor, which isn't too unbelievable all things considered. But the armor is still the same thickness/material as Astartes armor--which means Bolters/Heavy Bolters can punch through it(feasibly).

Crisis suits are 2.7 tonnes. They are much heavier than power armour, and are NOT made from the same material. In IAIII it said they're made of some unknown crystalline material.

They only reason that their armour isn't thick is because they need to be able to jump.

PA WITH an astartes in it is 1:2.7 the weight of a crisis suit=not as durable.

XV88=3.8 tonnes.

iproxtaco wrote:
He did emphasis the mass part. Relative to artificer and terminator, regular astartes amour is mass produced.

Granted, but the point was compared to Tau crisis suits, they're not.

iproxtaco wrote:
In fluff those Space Marines would win easily, but that's not the point. You can't use in-game rules to debate the capabilities of FLUFF.

Why not? Fluff is a official background and those stats compare toughness of certain unit in 40k world...

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Guardsmen wear flak armor.
Stormtroopers wear carapace.
Sisters wear a dumbed down version of Astartes Power Armor, with a lot of the features not being present because they don't have the physiology or the enhancements of the Astartes.
Astartes Power Armor is basically as good as you can get in a 'mass' produced format.
Artificer Armor is another step up.

Crisis Suits may have a bit more armor in places than the standard Astartes armor, which isn't too unbelievable all things considered. But the armor is still the same thickness/material as Astartes armor--which means Bolters/Heavy Bolters can punch through it(feasibly).

Crisis suits are 2.7 tonnes. They are much heavier than power armour, and are NOT made from the same material. In IAIII it said they're made of some unknown crystalline material.

They only reason that their armour isn't thick is because they need to be able to jump.

Bzzt!
XV8 is 2.5 tonnes. 2.7 tonnes is for the XV89 which has Iridium armor plating, losing its guaranteed assault move of 6" in the process.

And you'll notice that I said "same thickness/material" rather than simply "they're a carbon copy of materials". There's been mention of Crisis Suits having what seemed like ceramite plating, but the ones encountered at Taros had a nanocrystalline material(composition unknown).

PA WITH an astartes in it is 1:2.7 the weight of a crisis suit=not as durable.

And once again: bigger does not mean better.

XV88=3.8 tonnes.

And? Most of that is the railguns and stabilisation system built in.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Granted, but the point was compared to Tau crisis suits, they're not.

So the reason this armor suck is because it's not mass produced?

BaronIveagh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
He did emphasis the mass part. Relative to artificer and terminator, regular astartes amour is mass produced.

Granted, but the point was compared to Tau crisis suits, they're not.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh.

They are and they aren't. The 'base' of the armor is mass produced. The problem comes in when the armor is given to the Chapters receiving it, where it's customized and tailored to individual Astartes.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Crisis suits are 2.7 tonnes. They are much heavier than power armour, and are NOT made from the same material. In IAIII it said they're made of some unknown crystalline material.

They only reason that their armour isn't thick is because they need to be able to jump.

PA WITH an astartes in it is 1:2.7 the weight of a crisis suit=not as durable.
XV88=3.8 tonnes.

Occupied astartes armor weighs in at half a ton. Terminator armor weighs in at 1.5 tons.




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Brother Coa wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
Granted, but the point was compared to Tau crisis suits, they're not.

So the reason this armor suck is because it's not mass produced?

It sucks because the enemy has an easier time fielding comparable equipment then you do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
Ehhhhhhhhhhhh.

They are and they aren't. The 'base' of the armor is mass produced. The problem comes in when the armor is given to the Chapters receiving it, where it's customized and tailored to individual Astartes.

My understanding was that chapters produced their own power armor and that their power armor was not mass produced at all.

Did you just say that Tau Crisis armor is better than Imperial Terminator?

Brother Coa wrote:Did you just say that Tau Crisis armor is better than Imperial Terminator?

If I were fielding 1 crisis suit against 1 terminator, I know who my money would be on.

BaronIveagh wrote:
My understanding was that chapters produced their own power armor and that their power armor was not mass produced at all.

Then how the Emperor produced them in a time of a great crusade smarty-pants? He used Mars and then captured Forge Worlds.
Or Legions? Some forge worlds are making a armor for the marines. Marines are always a force on the move and don't have time to make their own armors.



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im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Did you just say that Tau Crisis armor is better than Imperial Terminator?

If I were fielding 1 crisis suit against 1 terminator, I know who my money would be on.

We all know that you are a Tau fan so your vote is not counting.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
In fluff those Space Marines would win easily, but that's not the point. You can't use in-game rules to debate the capabilities of FLUFF.

Why not? Fluff is a official background and those stats compare toughness of certain unit in 40k world...

Sigh*. Because everything has to balanced out to make it fair. Space Marine capabilities are reduced so that other army infantry have a chance to take them down, they're made in such a way so that people have to buy more than one box to have an army.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Ehhhhhhhhhhhh.

They are and they aren't. The 'base' of the armor is mass produced. The problem comes in when the armor is given to the Chapters receiving it, where it's customized and tailored to individual Astartes.

My understanding was that chapters produced their own power armor and that their power armor was not mass produced at all.

I'm thinking this is where a need for a 'fluff bible' from GW comes into play again.

The implications that I've read are that Chapter artificers can produce their own Power Armour, but the majority of their armor are either recovered Chapter relics or newly built suits that come from the forges of Mars and elsewhere, which is then customized for the Chapter with its livery and the like.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Did you just say that Tau Crisis armor is better than Imperial Terminator?

If I were fielding 1 crisis suit against 1 terminator, I know who my money would be on.

Tau Crisis suits have 3+ armor save
Terminators have 2+....

go figure.....


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iproxtaco wrote:
Sigh*. Because everything has to balanced out to make it fair. Space Marine capabilities are reduced so that other army infantry have a chance to take them down, they're made in such a way so that people have to buy more than one box to have an army.

Still, in real life, on open ground, squad of tactical marines have no chance against 100 Guardsman.
Even with limited cover they are all dead.

Beside that stats are there to show how one unit is stronger than other. And if you say is true than all faction have their power reduce. So we are looking in actual fluff only in small scale...

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Did you just say that Tau Crisis armor is better than Imperial Terminator?

If I were fielding 1 crisis suit against 1 terminator, I know who my money would be on.

Tau Crisis suits have 3+ armor save
Terminators have 2+....

go figure.....

It's who shoots first. One on one, the Termiantor's have better armor, the crisis suit has a larger variety of armor piercing weaponry.

Brother Coa wrote:

Still, in real life, on open ground, squad of tactical marines have no chance against 100 Guardsman.
Even with limited cover they are all dead.

Yes, actually, they have a fantastic chance.

Brother Coa wrote:
We all know that you are a Tau fan so your vote is not counting.

Oh, so only the Imperium fans are allowed to chime in on a Tau vs. Imperium debate?

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Did you just say that Tau Crisis armor is better than Imperial Terminator?

If I were fielding 1 crisis suit against 1 terminator, I know who my money would be on.

Tau Crisis suits have 3+ armor save
Terminators have 2+....

go figure.....

It's not just about armour though. Mobility is a factor, as is the weaponry of the opponents. Terminator armour is more mobile on foot, but does not have a jump-pack. It depends what they are both using. In Close Combat their is no debate, in long range, I'd day Crisis suit. In a straight up fight I'm inclined to say Terminator because it has superior mobility on foot, better armour and close combat ability, but has generally inferior ranged capability.


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Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Sigh*. Because everything has to balanced out to make it fair. Space Marine capabilities are reduced so that other army infantry have a chance to take them down, they're made in such a way so that people have to buy more than one box to have an army.

Still, in real life, on open ground, squad of tactical marines have no chance against 100 Guardsman.
Even with limited cover they are all dead.

Beside that stats are there to show how one unit is stronger than other. And if you say is true than all faction have their power reduce. So we are looking in actual fluff only in small scale...

In real life? So, in-game then, I agree they wouldn't stand a chance. IN FLUFF, they would smash the 100 guard, hence why they need to be reduced in power to BALANCE the game, and to have a viable system.

Yes. that's what the stats IN-GAME are for. They aren't used to represent an armies capability in fluff, for the reasons I've stated above. And not every army necessarily has their power reduced, that would solve nothing. They need to change things in order to BALANCE the gaming system.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Did you just say that Tau Crisis armor is better than Imperial Terminator?

If I were fielding 1 crisis suit against 1 terminator, I know who my money would be on.

Tau Crisis suits have 3+ armor save
Terminators have 2+....

go figure.....

It's not just about armour though. Mobility is a factor, as is the weaponry of the opponents. Terminator armour is more mobile on foot, but does not have a jump-pack. It depends what they are both using. In Close Combat their is no debate, in long range, I'd day Crisis suit. In a straight up fight I'm inclined to say Terminator because it has superior mobility on foot, better armour and close combat ability, but has generally inferior ranged capability.

Exactly. A helios suit would destroy a terminator in 1 round of shooting. Or a blinding spear. or a fireknife...most suits actually...

And also JSJ means that the terminator might not even damage the suit.

Also, Iridium armour suits and XV88s are still suits, so you have to include them.





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Also, there is XV8-9 armour