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Kilkrazy wrote:

GW's objective is to produce all mass market models and vehicles as polystyrene kits because that method offers the best balance of production cost and utility to the player. Ideally they want to manufacture everything as polystyrene.

The Finecast models are a stop gap measure intended to replace metal with a cheaper material without the expense of creating new masters for injection moulding. The PR around Finecast is to justify the large price increase that accompanied their introduction.

If the entire new SoB line-up is being sculpted from scratch there is no reason not to do everything as polystyrene, as long as GW are prepared for the investment in the moulds.

The potential value of the new moulds depends on how many copies of each sprue GW think they can sell.

That's not what I meant.

Kilkrazy wrote:They can gather information from a WD codex release to judge the interest in SoB.

Well the point would be to spur old and new interest for SoB spread by word of mouth if they do chose to list or give information for new plastic SoB kits. As well as for a stop gap for competitive players to update the point costs, and other rules such as allies being removed.

The thing that puzzles me about this WD Codex is what White Dwarf is going to advertise for it? As it stands, there are few-to-no SoB models being made by GW as they haven't been re-done in Finecast and are either not being created or are still metal models. Presumably they're not releasing plastic models with the WD Codex as in that case they would have surely released a full, print Codex to support it (the plastics being priority for GW, the Codex the supporter).

So by that reckoning it means that they are either being re-done in finecast, or are having no models re-done which means there are very few models to support the SoB and allow new players to create an army.
If they are being re-done in finecast, then that begs the question as to why they weren't re-done in finecast from the start or why they're not listed for Finecast Wave 2 in August judging from a rumour thread or why they're finecasting them only to release plastic models later?

So, to me new plastics seem (highly) unlikely. Fine(re)casts seem unlikely. Which surely leaves no new models? Which would beg the question; what would WD wax lyrical about in regards to wanting your money?

I'm confused...

Kroothawk wrote:Guess it's time to repost this description from 3rd April on Heresy Online:

Sexxy Camera wrote:There is a right and left handed version of both the pistol flamer and the other weird pistol.

Equality for all!

Just Dave wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Guess it's time to repost this description from 3rd April on Heresy Online:

Sexxy Camera wrote:There is a right and left handed version of both the pistol flamer and the other weird pistol.

Equality for all!

That's right ... erm ... left ... erm ... correct

Kilkrazy wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:Hmm... sisters vs crons for a new boxed set... Assault on Sanctuary 101 as the battle/narritive??... I see possiblities..

The new box set has already been decided. It is going to be SM vs SM because that is what most players want.

Actually I heard it was Ultramarines v. Ultramarines. It's going to be called "Training Mission at Macragge"

Having a WD Codex is better than nothing, as I think that an update for the rules is always welcomed. But I thinks that it's still a bit dissapointing, what I really want is a full codex with tons of plastic minis.

Out of the three armies I'm building (DE, SoB and BT), I think that BT could use better a WD Codex. They don't need a 'revolution' in their miniature range.

yakface wrote:And Melissia, yet again you keep acting like the release of this army list in White Dwarf changes when GW will release an actual codex.

No, I act like I don't trust GW to produce a WD codex that' up to par....

Actually, just end that sentence after "GW". I'm feeling particularly cynical today.

yakface wrote:They can gather information from a WD codex release to judge the interest in SoB.

That would be a rather poor idea. If they didn't release good rules and models for the WD codex (which apparently they aren't doing the latter at any rate, given the resin rumors they're apparently just recasts of the old second edition ones), how can they tell how good rules and models for the REAL codex will sell?

I'm sure this has been said, but my thoughts would be a new 'get by' WD Sisters codex is mainly there to remove most of the Inquisiton and allies stuff.

Much like the main reason for the WoC WD stop-gap was to take out Daemons.

General interest. If a number of armies appear in tournaments, and sales of SoB stuff ticks up, then a Sisters book/models will come faster. If nothing much happens, then it will happen slower/if at all. Of course, if the rules are a mass of suck and model access/quality is terrible then the info provided will be of dubious utility.

Modified by exactly how well the DE/GK releases have done, of course, but nobody but GW really knows just how much money they made vs. mold costs.

I choose to be cautiously optimistic. Producing a WD update to an old army that they don't have new models for once a year could be a great idea to bring stuff up to date (Eldar, Chaos, Tau, Demons, Orks, BT, DA) and test stuff for a new book release in a year or two. Or it could be somebody's dumb idea to rush and try to 'fix' SoB so they can release 6th without guilt and get back to more SM armies.

Putting out the same old crap just to remove allies rules doesn't make much sense. WH is not the source of whining that DH was. When was the last IG list you saw that took allied Sisters? The only good thing you get is an old Hood anyway, and I don't know what you'd do with them in an IG army anyway. I suppose you could put them in a Valk/Vend, but you pay 50 points more for them over a similar Vet unit.

The Grog wrote:General interest. If a number of armies appear in tournaments, and sales of SoB stuff ticks up, then a Sisters book/models will come faster. If nothing much happens, then it will happen slower/if at all. Of course, if the rules are a mass of suck and model access/quality is terrible then the info provided will be of dubious utility.

But how can more armies start appearing when 2 troops and an HQ costs at minimum £86 at the moment? It's a vicious cycle, noone plays them so they don't update them so noone plays them so they don't update them, spiralling into inadequacy.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

The Grog wrote:General interest. If a number of armies appear in tournaments, and sales of SoB stuff ticks up, then a Sisters book/models will come faster. If nothing much happens, then it will happen slower/if at all. Of course, if the rules are a mass of suck and model access/quality is terrible then the info provided will be of dubious utility.

But how can more armies start appearing when 2 troops and an HQ costs at minimum £86 at the moment? It's a vicious cycle, noone plays them so they don't update them so noone plays them so they don't update them, spiralling into inadequacy.

"How can more armies start appearing when 2 troops and an HQ costs at minimum £86 at the moment?"--simple, the people already with armies of Sisters start playing them again because of updated rules.

And if the troops get recast as resin, they'll raise the price MORE. Yay!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

The Grog wrote:General interest. If a number of armies appear in tournaments, and sales of SoB stuff ticks up, then a Sisters book/models will come faster. If nothing much happens, then it will happen slower/if at all. Of course, if the rules are a mass of suck and model access/quality is terrible then the info provided will be of dubious utility.

But how can more armies start appearing when 2 troops and an HQ costs at minimum £86 at the moment? It's a vicious cycle, noone plays them so they don't update them so noone plays them so they don't update them, spiralling into inadequacy.

"How can more armies start appearing when 2 troops and an HQ costs at minimum £86 at the moment?"--simple, the people already with armies of Sisters start playing them again because of updated rules.

But that would not equate to sales for GW, kan...

Melissia wrote:And if the troops get recast as resin, they'll raise the price MORE. Yay!

We've heard nothing at all to support this idea of them being put into Finecast. By all measures, they might have warehouses full of unsold Sisters models.

Kanluwen wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

The Grog wrote:General interest. If a number of armies appear in tournaments, and sales of SoB stuff ticks up, then a Sisters book/models will come faster. If nothing much happens, then it will happen slower/if at all. Of course, if the rules are a mass of suck and model access/quality is terrible then the info provided will be of dubious utility.

But how can more armies start appearing when 2 troops and an HQ costs at minimum £86 at the moment? It's a vicious cycle, noone plays them so they don't update them so noone plays them so they don't update them, spiralling into inadequacy.

"How can more armies start appearing when 2 troops and an HQ costs at minimum £86 at the moment?"--simple, the people already with armies of Sisters start playing them again because of updated rules.

But that would not equate to sales for GW, kan...

Do you think the Blood Angels minidex equated to sales for GW, Mel? The point of the minidex isn't to generate huge sales. It's to reassure the playerbase that they're "not forgotten".

Both would need to happen. And if they don't put out any resin Sisters over the next 6 months, we'll probably know they're just 'updating' the army so they can release 6th and say to the bitchers "See, Look, we made 5th ed rules for everybody!".

Or testing for some plastic/real book release, but this is GW. I'll believe that when I see it, and not before. GW's tested rules like that what? 3 times in their entire history?

JGrand wrote:
She just likes to complain, plain and simple. There is no way that the codex will be worse than what they have now. New models should be nice too. Complaining about only 5 per box? If the rumors are true and it really is such a catch all unit and clocks in at around $30 or less than I see no problems. The new GK units are 5 per box and still beat the metal prices.

When one invests alot of time and money into an army, one gets to complain. Your VERY niave to think that the WD army will be worse then what we have now. What if, for instance, sisters move to other slots then troops, and say repentia, adeptus arbites and militia are troops? Is that better or worse?

Folks arent happy its a WD release, and worry their work is ruined. I cant blame them, given GW's history and track record.....

The Grog wrote:Both would need to happen. And if they don't put out any resin Sisters over the next 6 months, we'll probably know they're just 'updating' the army so they can release 6th and say to the bitchers "See, Look, we made 5th ed rules for everybody!".

We know that they're updating the army. We also know, from the sculptor's mouth himself, that they're making plastics.

Or testing for some plastic/real book release, but this is GW. I'll believe that when I see it, and not before. GW's tested rules like that what? 3 times in their entire history?

Blood Angels wasn't a "test for some plastic/real book release".

They didn't release the rules as a "test". They released them as a "tide you over until the book is released".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

carmachu wrote:

JGrand wrote:
She just likes to complain, plain and simple. There is no way that the codex will be worse than what they have now. New models should be nice too. Complaining about only 5 per box? If the rumors are true and it really is such a catch all unit and clocks in at around $30 or less than I see no problems. The new GK units are 5 per box and still beat the metal prices.

When one invests alot of time and money into an army, one gets to complain. Your VERY niave to think that the WD army will be worse then what we have now. What if, for instance, sisters move to other slots then troops, and say repentia, adeptus arbites and militia are troops? Is that better or worse?

I find it more naive to think that Sisters will be moved to other slots than troops. It's the complete opposite of what we saw with Grey Knights.

What's likely is we'll see a 'hero' system just like Grey Knights, where a Priest hero unlocks Militia, an Inquisitor unlocks Arbites, and several Sisters characters unlock different types of Sisters as Troops.

Folks arent happy its a WD release, and worry their work is ruined. I cant blame them, given GW's history and track record.....

History of what? Not doing anything you've suggested?

I'd be surprised if the Arbites are in. But not that surprised, considering they've been sitting on fething plastic stormtrooper kits that looked similar to old artwork of Fischig(a famous Arbites from the Eisenhorn series) for almost 3 years now.

When one invests alot of time and money into an army, one gets to complain. Your VERY niave to think that the WD army will be worse then what we have now. What if, for instance, sisters move to other slots then troops, and say repentia, adeptus arbites and militia are troops? Is that better or worse?

Folks arent happy its a WD release, and worry their work is ruined. I cant blame them, given GW's history and track record.....

Every codex brings change. To think it won't be heavily or almost entirely Sisters based is really being the naive one. The Blood Angels Codex came from a different edition and a time when the game designers were different in mindset as well. Even the worst 5th edition codex is head and shoulders over what Sisters have now.

Right now 10 Battle Sisters with a Veteran, Book, and 2 Meltas in a Rhino with smoke launchers is 202 points. Add in an Eviscerator and Imagnifier and that squad clocks in at 247.

9 Grey Hunters with a melta, banner, Wolf Guard with powerfist and combi melta, and a Rhino costs 227. I don't think I even need to go into the numerous advantages this squad has.

Simply getting the costs and rules of Sisters back in line with 5th edition WILL make them a better codex. Period.

As I've said before, it's not ideal but it is better than what they have. Also, it would be a great time to unload those unwanted models for anyone who is absolutely convinced the codex will be crap.

Kanluwen wrote:
I find it more naive to think that Sisters will be moved to other slots than troops. It's the complete opposite of what we saw with Grey Knights.

What's likely is we'll see a 'hero' system just like Grey Knights, where a Priest hero unlocks Militia, an Inquisitor unlocks Arbites, and several Sisters characters unlock different types of Sisters as Troops.

Given I was in a playtest group in the last codex before its release, I can say its not unheard of given some of the things tested out. I still liked one heavy tank and the motor pool, which was interesting.

But no, the only niave one is you. Its possible that could happen, but its also possible what I have stated, given GW's past history. But GW has no good will to bank on, given its history either.

History of what? Not doing anything you've suggested?

Releasing army lists in anything in a codex and then they fall by the way side. Or hell releasing min-dex's and then dumping them. BA and WOC are the only two that I recall that got that Chapter approved/WD/ Min-dex treatment then come out full support. There are more then that that have fallen to the way side.

As pointed out previously, every army which already had a real codex or army book and which got a stopgap list in WD has gotten a real book again later. Whether we're talking about BA, WoC, or Sisters themselves, back in 3rd.

The only WD armies which have been dropped have been variant sub-lists. Like Kroot Mercs, Feral Orks, and the all-Dino Lizardman list. All of which were honestly pretty broken and clearly got no real playtesting. Kroot being underpowered (though with a couple of broken combos) and Feral Orks and Dinos being overpowered.

GW may have a history, but the pessimism about this flies in the face of it.

carmachu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I find it more naive to think that Sisters will be moved to other slots than troops. It's the complete opposite of what we saw with Grey Knights.

What's likely is we'll see a 'hero' system just like Grey Knights, where a Priest hero unlocks Militia, an Inquisitor unlocks Arbites, and several Sisters characters unlock different types of Sisters as Troops.

Given I was in a playtest group in the last codex before its release, I can say its not unheard of given some of the things tested out. I still liked one heavy tank and the motor pool, which was interesting.

Which "last codex"? Since when does GW playtest? All accounts are they got rid of that years ago.

If you're going to make bigshot claims, have bigshot evidence to back it up.

carmachu wrote:
But no, the only naive one is you. Its possible that could happen, but its also possible what I have stated, given GW's past history. But GW has no good will to bank on, given its history either.

Considering that we've been told the book will be 'Sisters of Battle centric', I'm saying you're very very likely to be wrong.

I'm also saying you're very very likely to be wrong because of the fact that even the Witchhunters book, which was supposed to be 'Inquisition centric', allowed for fielding an all Sisters army.
And that if you look at the way oh pretty much every single codex in existence right now is organized, there are characters which alter the FOC and allow for taking different types of troops in different slots.

carmachu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:History of what? Not doing anything you've suggested?

Releasing army lists in anything in a codex and then they fall by the way side. Or hell releasing min-dex's and then dumping them. BA and WOC are the only two that I recall that got that Chapter approved/WD/ Min-dex treatment then come out full support. There are more then that that have fallen to the way side.

Because those other "mini-dexes" were not actually intended to come out, fully supported as their own codex.

It's like the Lost and the Damned/Storm of Chaos arguments all over again.
They were really never going to be a full army on its own. They were something intended for the campaigns, and in many cases nothing really was going to come out of them

Why is this so complicated for people to understand?

Chapter Approved was a testbed for ideas, yes. It was also where supplemental units were introduced.

It was not, however, going to be "Preview Codex" material.

The Grog wrote: I choose to be cautiously optimistic. Producing a WD update to an old army that they don't have new models for once a year could be a great idea to bring stuff up to date (Eldar, Chaos, Tau, Demons, Orks, BT, DA) and test stuff for a new book release in a year or two. Or it could be somebody's dumb idea to rush and try to 'fix' SoB so they can release 6th without guilt and get back to more SM armies.

I don't know if you left them out because of the fact they are rumored to come out this year, but you forgot to list necrons.

JGrand wrote:

When one invests alot of time and money into an army, one gets to complain. Your VERY niave to think that the WD army will be worse then what we have now. What if, for instance, sisters move to other slots then troops, and say repentia, adeptus arbites and militia are troops? Is that better or worse?

Folks arent happy its a WD release, and worry their work is ruined. I cant blame them, given GW's history and track record.....

Every codex brings change. To think it won't be heavily or almost entirely Sisters based is really being the naive one. The Blood Angels Codex came from a different edition and a time when the game designers were different in mindset as well. Even the worst 5th edition codex is head and shoulders over what Sisters have now.

Right now 10 Battle Sisters with a Veteran, Book, and 2 Meltas in a Rhino with smoke launchers is 202 points. Add in an Eviscerator and Imagnifier and that squad clocks in at 247.

9 Grey Hunters with a melta, banner, Wolf Guard with powerfist and combi melta, and a Rhino costs 227. I don't think I even need to go into the numerous advantages this squad has.

Simply getting the costs and rules of Sisters back in line with 5th edition WILL make them a better codex. Period.

As I've said before, it's not ideal but it is better than what they have. Also, it would be a great time to unload those unwanted models for anyone who is absolutely convinced the codex will be crap.

If you are adding Eviscerators and Imagnifer to the squad, then you really aren't playing Sisters correctly.

The best composition is either:
-10 Battle Sisters, Veteran Sister Superior, Book of St. Lucius, Brazier or Combi-Flamer, Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Rhino, Extra Armour, Smoke

or

-10 Battle Sisters, Veteran Sister Superior, Book of St. Lucius, Brazier or Combi-Flamer, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino, Extra Armour, Smoke

The current problem in the codex is the Rhino costing 50 points, extra armour 5 points, smoke 3 points, and search lights 1 point. On top of that, the Sisters of Battle Rhino has only one fire point.

IMO 11 points for a Sister, which is essentially a vet guard in power armour with bolter, is good deal. If they do bring Sister in line, they might bump the heavy flamer to 20 points, similar to IG one. But in return, I hope they increase the number of special weapons, allowing 3 Meltaguns.

Sisters aren't all that bad in current 5th ed. They only suffer in annihilation missions, lack or reserves, and not enough beefy vehicles against anti-range mech shooty spam.

Kanluwen wrote:
It's like the Lost and the Damned/Storm of Chaos arguments all over again.
They were really never going to be a full army on its own. They were something intended for the campaigns, and in many cases nothing really was going to come out of them

Why is this so complicated for people to understand?

Chapter Approved was a testbed for ideas, yes. It was also where supplemental units were introduced.

It was not, however, going to be "Preview Codex" material.

They sure did sell alot of minis and implied that they were going to be armies for a long while, did they not? No matter how many times you wrap it up, yes the history is there.

Chaos dwarves are another fine example. WD to CA army book to hold over army to.....not much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:

GW may have a history, but the pessimism about this flies in the face of it.

How's that choas dwarf army update coming BTW?

If you are adding Eviscerators and Imagnifer to the squad, then you really aren't playing Sisters correctly.

The best composition is either:
-10 Battle Sisters, Veteran Sister Superior, Book of St. Lucius, Brazier or Combi-Flamer, Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Rhino, Extra Armour, Smoke

or

-10 Battle Sisters, Veteran Sister Superior, Book of St. Lucius, Brazier or Combi-Flamer, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino, Extra Armour, Smoke

The current problem in the codex is the Rhino costing 50 points, extra armour 5 points, smoke 3 points, and search lights 1 point. On top of that, the Sisters of Battle Rhino has only one fire point.

That's all well and good, but they are still overcosted compared to the new codices troops.

IMO 11 points for a Sister, which is essentially a vet guard in power armour with bolter, is good deal. If they do bring Sister in line, they might bump the heavy flamer to 20 points, similar to IG one. But in return, I hope they increase the number of special weapons, allowing 3 Meltaguns.

As it stands they are too many points IMO. They should be 10 points per Sister. Maybe an additional 10 for a Vet Sister. I would not be opposed to them having stubborn base.

Sisters aren't all that bad in current 5th ed. They only suffer in annihilation missions, lack or reserves, and not enough beefy vehicles against anti-range mech shooty spam.

I wouldn't say they are the worst list but they are a bottom tier army...probably bottom 3.

As it stands Sisters:

Aren't competitive-especially in the tournament circuit.

Aren't fun to play- they are confined to a gimmicky Rhino rush mono-build.

Aren't flavorful- as is stands, what do you see (if you even see them played?) Cannoness, Battles Sisters, Immolator, Exorcists, Seraphim, and sometimes Inquisitors (for sleaze factor), and Celestians

So if they can make the new codex either competitive, fun, flavorful, or any of the above combinations then it's a better codex. New models (which have been rumored) are a plus as well.

carmachu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
It's like the Lost and the Damned/Storm of Chaos arguments all over again.
They were really never going to be a full army on its own. They were something intended for the campaigns, and in many cases nothing really was going to come out of them

Why is this so complicated for people to understand?

Chapter Approved was a testbed for ideas, yes. It was also where supplemental units were introduced.

It was not, however, going to be "Preview Codex" material.

They sure did sell alot of minis and implied that they were going to be armies for a long while, did they not? No matter how many times you wrap it up, yes the history is there.

The history's there if you're making it up, sure.

Nothing in the campaign books implied that they were "going to be armies for a long while".

And your "they sure did sell a lot of minis" bit is also a fallacy. The majority of the "kits" or "armies" were made up of conversions to existing pieces. Lost and the Damned were available as a bag stuffed with Catachan, Ork, and Chaos bits. That's not "selling a lot of minis". That's selling " a lot of bits".

The same thing happened with Storm of Chaos, incidentally, where almost everything(there WERE a few kits released that were not simple conversions. The Grudge Thrower, Crom the Conqueror, the Orc boss, the Slayer-King, and a few others I can't name off the top of my head) was done as conversion kits or 'package' deals.

Chaos dwarves are another fine example. WD to CA army book to hold over army to.....not much.

Pretty sure the 'CA army book' you're referring to is "Ravening Hordes". If that's the case, then it seems they got the same treatment as Squats--they just were let to fade into obscurity and become a piece of the background rather than an army on the tabletop.

You know, kind of like Dogs of War and Tilea.

Mannahnin wrote:

GW may have a history, but the pessimism about this flies in the face of it.

How's that choas dwarf army update coming BTW?

I'd say pretty good. The Chaos Dwarfs were never 'squatted', they've kept a place in the background. They made an appearance in The Storm Of Chaos alongside of the Hellcannon, and now Forge World is doing a line of Chaos Dwarfs.

You were saying something about them getting "not much"?

carmachu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It's like the Lost and the Damned/Storm of Chaos arguments all over again.
They were really never going to be a full army on its own. They were something intended for the campaigns, and in many cases nothing really was going to come out of them

Chapter Approved was a testbed for ideas, yes. It was also where supplemental units were introduced.

It was not, however, going to be "Preview Codex" material.

They sure did sell alot of minis and implied that they were going to be armies for a long while, did they not? No matter how many times you wrap it up, yes the history is there.

I'm more with Carmachu re: Storm of Chaos and Eye of Terror. The beginning of the SoC book said directly that it was functionally an additional volume in the interlocking 6th ed Chaos army books. That was genuinely misleading, what GW did there, and disappointing.

OTOH, the most standalone of the armies in there, the Daemons, DID wind up eventually getting their own book. Kan, GW did sell A LOT of metal Daemon models during the heydey of that army list.

---------------------

carmachu wrote:Chaos dwarves are another fine example. WD to CA army book to hold over army to.....not much.

Mannahnin wrote:GW may have a history, but the pessimism about this flies in the face of it.

How's that choas dwarf army update coming BTW?

Did Chaos Dwarves have an Army Book, then a WD update? My recollection was that they were in original Ravening Hordes, then got a WD list, then DID get a full army book, and THEN were discontinued. Which is, if anything, more support for the idea that a Sisters book will be forthcoming. Though really the CDs are kind of an odd case, because they did get a couple-page list in the 6th ed Ravening Hordes booklet, and now GW is sort-of reviving them via Forgeworld.

GW's repeated statements that they don't intend to discontinue any more armies all long-postdate the loss of the CDs. They were made in response to fan complaints about the discontinuation of sub-armies like Kroot Mercs.

Mannahnin wrote:My recollection was that they were in original Ravening Hordes, then got a WD list, then DID get a full army book, and THEN were discontinued.

You recall incorrectly. Chaos Dwarfs NEVER got a full army book, they got a book that collected the WD articles(that were spread across several issues, not a single list) together into a semi-coherent list. It was even called White Dwarf presents Warhammer Chaos Dwarfs.

After that they got another Ravening Hordes list and haven't been touched until the new FW stuff.

Mannahnin wrote:

carmachu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It's like the Lost and the Damned/Storm of Chaos arguments all over again.
They were really never going to be a full army on its own. They were something intended for the campaigns, and in many cases nothing really was going to come out of them

Chapter Approved was a testbed for ideas, yes. It was also where supplemental units were introduced.

It was not, however, going to be "Preview Codex" material.

They sure did sell alot of minis and implied that they were going to be armies for a long while, did they not? No matter how many times you wrap it up, yes the history is there.

I'm more with Carmachu re: Storm of Chaos and Eye of Terror. The beginning of the SoC book said directly that it was functionally an additional volume in the interlocking 6th ed Chaos army books. That was genuinely misleading, what GW did there, and disappointing.

I'm not sure where you really got that reading from Gav Thorpe's intro piece.

Gav Thorpe wrote: Two years ago, we embarked on the Hordes of Chaos project. Back then, I wrote of our plans to release three Chaos-themed supplements for Warhammer. After Hordes of Chaos came Beasts of Chaos, and this three year project is now culminating in this volume-- Storm of Chaos.

Storm of Chaos is not a Warhammer Armies book in the traditional sense. It contains army lists, of course, but is much more than that. The contents of this book have been written to allow players to fight out their own Chaos invasion (or any other invasion, if you fancy it!) and in particular, to set their battles in the terrible time known as the Storm of Chaos, when the Lord of the End Times, Archaon, led his horde south into the Empire and besieged the city of Middenheim.

That reads more to me like it was a rules supplement like Lustria, not an actual army book.

OTOH, the most standalone of the armies in there, the Daemons, DID wind up eventually getting their own book. Kan, GW did sell A LOT of metal Daemon models during the heydey of that army list.

They also sold 'a lot of metal Daemon models' during the Hordes of Chaos book, where Daemons were pretty heavy into the list as well.

I can say pretty knowingly that I have no information about the sales figures of those particular metals, so I can't attest to that.
I can however say that I know the list was popular, but it was mainly popular with the folks within my locality who already had a large stash of Daemon models.

Kanluwen wrote:Which "last codex"? Since when does GW playtest? All accounts are they got rid of that years ago.

He's telling the truth...I know guys in his group who were involved. If you didn't notice, Codex: Witch Hunters was released quite some time ago.

It's like the Lost and the Damned/Storm of Chaos arguments all over again.
They were really never going to be a full army on its own. They were something intended for the campaigns, and in many cases nothing really was going to come out of them

Why is this so complicated for people to understand?

As others have pointed out, Codex: EoT was a completely legal, valid codex. Most assumed at the time that armies like LatD would at least be "absorbed" into a future Chaos codex. Witness how the Speed Freeks from Codex: Armageddon were kept mostly viable in the Ork codex v4. Seer Councils from EoT made their way into Codex: Eldar v4. It should also be pointed out that BTs from Codex: Armageddon did get their own, full codex.

You're portraying the campaign books as having a very linear outcome, and that's simply not accurate. Some armies became full armies. Others migrated in some form into their respective "main" codices. Others went nowhere.

Note that I think it's wrong to be pushing the panic button re: Sisters. To me, a WD codex is evidence that they want to continue them, and I dunno if that was an obvious slam dunk.

Kanluwen wrote:
Pretty sure the 'CA army book' you're referring to is "Ravening Hordes". If that's the case, then it seems they got the same treatment as Squats--they just were let to fade into obscurity and become a piece of the background rather than an army on the tabletop.

You know, if your going to argue GW history,perhaps you really really really need to ACTUALLY LEARN GW HISTORY.

Chaos dwarves, during the golden age of GW(pre-going public) were an actually WD army. Then they got an actually army book CA/GW presents Chaos dwarves. Then eventually got a "Ravening hordes update to 'hold them over". ANd have pretty much been squated since. FW not withstanding.

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Platuan4th wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:My recollection was that they were in original Ravening Hordes, then got a WD list, then DID get a full army book, and THEN were discontinued.

You recall incorrectly. Chaos Dwarfs NEVER got a full army book, they got a book that collected the WD articles(that were spread across several issues, not a single list) together into a semi-coherent list. It was even called White Dwarf presents Warhammer Chaos Dwarfs.

After that they got another Ravening Hordes list and haven't been touched until the new FW stuff.

No, that was an army book, GW presents. Much more then just a collection.

carmachu wrote:

No, that was an army book, GW presents. Much more then just a collection.

No, it wasn't. Try opening a copy sometime. It wasn't organized like the Army books of the time, it was just reprints of the various articles but together into one book. It was NOTHING like the 4th/5th ed Army Books.

If you're going to tell someone "perhaps you really really really need to ACTUALLY LEARN GW HISTORY ", perhaps you should do the same.

Here's the cover:



For reference, here's the cover of the Wood Elf book from the same time. Notice the lack of the White Dwarf presents:



Also:

"However, unlike the other armies they were not given a proper Warhammer Armies book but instead had material that had already been published over several issues of White Dwarf issued as a single publication: White Dwarf Presents: Chaos Dwarfs. This included all of the standard army book contents but the material was not edited to work as a single book."

Sorry, Carmachu, but you're wrong.