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BoxANT wrote:I know what you mean warboss. My Cadian 108th has had to introduce a new policy of issuing officers lasguns only. It has gone a long way in strengthening the relationship between Officers, NCOs and the enlisted men (well... "enlisted" is an oxymoron in Cadia).

I am hoping with the release of the new codex, perhaps my Commanding Officer will be able to purchase one of those fancy new HotShot Laspistols for his sidearm. Hopefully the Munitorum (in their infinite wisdom) will see fit to make such a transaction reasonable.

seconded, sir. seconded.

Actually... there is probably MORE fluff describing the Guard running out into guns with bayonets drawn and a dozen or so officers and Commissars wielding power weapons than there is fluff DEFYING that idea (i.e.; fluff stating that they don't do such things). Pretty much every short story, long story, and novel featuring Guard has, at some point, a charge of Guardsmen with officers and Commissars armed with power weapons/fists (maybe not all of them, but some of them) taking it to the enemy.

maybe so, but, they usually take a heavy toll if they live at all... unless they are fighting traitor guard in which case they shine like shiny marbles

Skinnattittar wrote:Actually... there is probably MORE fluff describing the Guard running out into guns with bayonets drawn and a dozen or so officers and Commissars wielding power weapons than there is fluff DEFYING that idea (i.e.; fluff stating that they don't do such things). Pretty much every short story, long story, and novel featuring Guard has, at some point, a charge of Guardsmen with officers and Commissars armed with power weapons/fists (maybe not all of them, but some of them) taking it to the enemy.

Isn't that enemy almost always traitor guardsman? Or orks after they've been shot up? I've never read a story of them taking it to marines or tyranids. Or necrons. Or eldar/dark eldar (though thats probably more due to the way that those two armies fight).

They hit tau in close combat a lot.

Yes, and then Gaunt kills the Chaos Space Marine with a chain sword.

BoxANT wrote:Yes, and then Gaunt kills the Chaos Space Marine with a chain sword.

That was epic.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Polonius wrote:Well, I know better than to keep arguing here.

Why? All you seem to have been stating is that you want a point cost that would make the weapon a good enough alternative to "more guns" that it would see play. What is that point cost? 5? 3? How valueless is a power weapon and how much better point for point in a guardsman's hands does it need to be than in a marines to be worthwhile? I mean, you also seemed to want a guard force with close combat teeth, and given the cost of ogryn (which we aren't discussing) thats just not going to happen. Even with them it wasn't going to happen. Even with them, better rough riders, AND free power weapons for all your sergeants it wasn't going to happen.

People would just take the guns because your basic statline is too poor to field as a close combat centric army.


But then you've quit the argument and while you've said what you've said "power weapons should cost what they would need to to see play" you still haven't given a number. Nor have you supported the idea that any number other than free would accomplish that goal.

Respectfully, I think it's foolish to debate with you because you don't debate. You pick a side and shout about it until everybody else moves on. It's fun to rebut now and then, but any lengthy discussion shows that you frankly aren't particularly interested in discussing the topic, just being right.

I would argue that 5pts for a power weapon is a good buy for a common squad, for a few reasons:
1) It does triple the sgts effectiveness against marines, and with 3 attacks, the sgt is already three times better than a basic IG trooper in combat. Plusing up the one guy makes the squad a threat against things that should be dragged down in combat, things like small tactical squads and lone terminators and whatnot.
2) It's a powerful psychological effect. Opponents become nervous about the power weapon, and plan around it.
3) IG squads should be able to prevail in close combat (Which in the rules represents extreme close range shooting and HtH combat) through enough numbers. Adding a small amount of punch, in enough numbers to make the odds work out, adds a certain ability of the IG to really mob together and storm a line. Expecting to solely shoot the enemy off of objectives is how you lose games of 40k. With a 2-1 points advantage, IG should be able to simply seize and take an objective, and the power weapon helps.
4) Adding, say, 8 power weapons to various line squads adds about 40pts, which is the cost of a single ogryn, or a single sentinel. Yes, there is a measurable drop in shooting, but the added punch in combat might make up for it. It's at least close enough to be worth a shot.

Now, if it's that useful, why not make it 10pts? Well, for starters, anything that can instead take a 15pt fist will do that instead. At I3, the PW is going last anyway, so what the hell, why not spend a few more points and actually kill some stuff. For infantry squads, the cost becomes too high. Assuming basic melta/Autocannon style squads, an IG squad runs 70pts. At 5pts, a PW is a 7% increase. At 10pts it's a 14% increase, and adding them to 8 squads is now an entirely new squad.

There is a point for IG players where the ability to clearly add a new squad is better than upgrades, but if the upgrades in question are rough half the cost of a squad, than it's a 6-5 and you pick 'em.

Keeping PWs cheap, and making them available would allow them to be taken to fill in final points, which is useful. At 10pts, you get half as many, and therefore they become half as effective.

Respectfully, I think it's foolish to debate with you because you don't debate. You pick a side and shout about it until everybody else moves on. It's fun to rebut now and then, but any lengthy discussion shows that you frankly aren't particularly interested in discussing the topic, just being right.

I don't see how I haven't been debating here. Your the one thats been providing mathammer on how the current cost makes the weapon unduly effective when compared to other armies then saying that it should be as cheap as required to see play over other weapons. I've been stating that I don't believe that there is a point at which the weapon will see common use without at the same time being unfairly too cheap when compared to other forces.

Now, if it's that useful, why not make it 10pts? Well, for starters, anything that can instead take a 15pt fist will do that instead. At I3, the PW is going last anyway, so what the hell, why not spend a few more points and actually kill some stuff. For infantry squads, the cost becomes too high. Assuming basic melta/Autocannon style squads, an IG squad runs 70pts. At 5pts, a PW is a 7% increase. At 10pts it's a 14% increase, and adding them to 8 squads is now an entirely new squad.

Sooo... What? 7ish points for the upgrade would seem to strike the balance between being an easy fallback inclusion in squads and being a meaningful expenditure of points?

What I'm understanding from your posts is that you want the power sword to remain cheap in the army despite being statistically more destructive at that point value than in other armies because it has to be to see use over things like meltaguns.


I would then ask if you think this is fair to the players of those other armies.

The way I see it is, all options should be somewhat viable. If an option was 5 points before, and it was not considered useful enough to be worth taking, and now it is 10 points, then it is still not viable. Whether or not charging with "For Cadia!" with a guard squad has a lot to do with whether or not the 10 point new cost is reasonable or not.

ph34r wrote:The way I see it is, all options should be somewhat viable. If an option was 5 points before, and it was not considered useful enough to be worth taking, and now it is 10 points, then it is still not viable. Whether or not charging with "For Cadia!" with a guard squad has a lot to do with whether or not the 10 point new cost is reasonable or not.

Exactly. I think you hit the nail on the head. Similar with Ogryns. Not viable before, now even worse. No wonder we want a decrease in points in both Ogryns and PW's. And this of course all loops around to the part about the IG being bad or how they should to be "reasonable" at CC depending on your personal opinion.

I love this Forum by the way. Such funny arguments !!!!

-A.

Actually Shuma his math hammer showed how a 5 point power weapon is actually perfect in comparison to SM costs. He showed you how 3 guard infantry platoons, slight over pointed 210vs190, actually do the exact same amount of damage. But if you jump it to 10 points each it puts the tactical squad far above the guard point for point.

But that's ok cause guard aren't suppose to be worth a darn in assault according to the fluff (according to you ). Forget that the Ghost series, Cain series, 15 Hours, Last Chancer Series, and probably others (haven't kept up as much lately) all show guard mixing it up close and personal against 'nids, tainted sisters, chaos marines, tau, and orks. Guard are taught to use their bayonets and guns as close combat weapons. Think of them more as WW2 army troops than modern marine equivelants. In WW2 a rifle was a melee weapon as much as a knife was.

Had to respond since you do seem to have a tendency to just pick the parts that suit and not actually put up a counter arguement. Hence the reason people say you don't argue, you just shout.

I like the new ogryns better. I may stand alone here. They may now be expensive as all get out but now they actually can do what they are meant to do! T5 means that marine squad will not win combat rez due to a fist alone and with a PW commissar they will brutalize marine squads. Is it better to sacrifice a 50 point squad by leaving marine guy with no other choices to assault and shooting them to death when they exit combat? probably. I it as fun? Hell no. I want my CC squad to be feared for a change. 5 ogres, er, ogryn and a commissar are 14 t5 wounds with a power weapon for 250 points. I'll run them, maybe even 2 squads, at ard' boyz level.

Well there's no doubts the new Ogryn are better than the old Ogryn - Toughness 5 will do that to anyone - but they're still not worth as much as a Terminator.

I conceed that, yes, they are now a wall of flesh that will stand in the way of anything, but that's what they've always needed to do at their original price (equiv of a PAGK each). Now with the equiv price to a Terminator, they should be doing more, and I'm deathly afraid of what happens when they lose combat (which they will, because they can't cause damage).

Skinnattittar wrote:Actually... there is probably MORE fluff describing the Guard running out into guns with bayonets drawn and a dozen or so officers and Commissars wielding power weapons than there is fluff DEFYING that idea (i.e.; fluff stating that they don't do such things). Pretty much every short story, long story, and novel featuring Guard has, at some point, a charge of Guardsmen with officers and Commissars armed with power weapons/fists (maybe not all of them, but some of them) taking it to the enemy.

Using the fluff to justify how the Guard plays on the small scale of a 40k battlefield is fairly invalid, though. What we have here are minor skirmishes or individual assaults of far larger conflicts. These are atypical conflicts. Epic is the only GW game that reflects the larger theater of war accurately-to-background. From tank companies engaging targets at long range to waves of infantry overwhelming opponents in close quarters combat.

Kungfuhustler wrote:I like the new ogryns better. I may stand alone here. They may now be expensive as all get out but now they actually can do what they are meant to do! T5 means that marine squad will not win combat rez due to a fist alone and with a PW commissar they will brutalize marine squads.

I've been doing the math for a while now, and considering how awful the old T4 Ogryns are, I'm slightly more satisfied with the new ones than I was. If I had my druthers, they'd be different still, but you take what life's given you, and that's that. I might still run them as Renegade Ogryn Berserkers in Apocalypse, though.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I conceed that, yes, they are now a wall of flesh that will stand in the way of anything, but that's what they've always needed to do at their original price (equiv of a PAGK each). Now with the equiv price to a Terminator, they should be doing more, and I'm deathly afraid of what happens when they lose combat (which they will, because they can't cause damage).

What it boils down is lack of power weapons or rending. Or, if you want to look at it from the POV of the game as a whole, Armour Save Modifiers.

Is it true that there is a leader that gives one unit furious assault?

If so, could this unit be 3 units merged into one if from same platoon?

Would that be 12 S4 I4 power weapon attacks if they assault in?

How many Melta shots is that before the assault and how much does those three units cost when equipped so?

Does the squad even need meltas and flamers in such a merged unit?

Can you have a commisar with such a unit?

How much would he help?

Is maybe the cost of the weapon due to its potential if used to maximum effect?

How many Power weapon carrying S4 I4 guard were in the last codex?

Gaunt. That's it.

And the ability to use someone else's ability to give them F-Charge doesn't justify a higher base cost. Costing something high because you might combo it with something else is not a good way to design rules, and is almost as absurd as the 'they made it bad so no one would take it' line of thinking.

So, They shouldn't cost as to the possible effectiveness of a given weapon?

Taking into account how someone might/will exploit the rules is poor game design?

Then how should they be costed?

I think the answer is neither here nor there. In one extreme, you'd get extremely effective combos because the options would be priced to be used sans combo, in the opposite, the options would be worthless to take without the combo.

Focued, it's been said a dozen times by a dozen different people. I shouldn't have to repeat it when you can just back track over pages 18 and 19 and see what people said so far. Read what Polonius said, what I said and what others said. It's not hard.

What would make a better meatshield/tarpit?

7 Ogyrns (290pt), so 21 T5 wounds, stubborn.

or

50gaurdsmen & a commissar (285pt), 51 T3 wounds stubborn/fearless?



The guardsmen shoot better, hold objectives better, do more damage on the charge, and imo are even better tarpits.

And the conscripts score. And can have a priest making them furious charge, re-roll, stubborn, yada yada yada

I planning on using a scavy gang as penal legion. Can anyone tell me if their leader as any special rule I should be aware of?

I know the ogryn still suck but as opposed to a massive squad of guardsmen they have a smaller footprint which is useful to me as I run alot of vehicles. If they can hold off hte baddies for a turn or two while I relocate my rear av 10 to the other end of the map I'm happy... And I've spent the last 3 hours painting one. I'm only 50% done

*EDIT* And I loathe guard infantry platoons. ST's all the way for me. coming soon vets with carapice.. Unless this book actually compells my 120 guardsmen (80+ painted) back to the table.

Hmm, the idea of cramming ten or eleven special characters into a single army is a fun prospect.

I wonder how they will be costed. Harker is bs4 with relentless and a HB, right? how would you cost him?

it would be amazing if they actually had a lot of cheap unique guys. Like a 40 pt harker, 60pt gaunt (dunno how they'd dumb him down but w/e), a 50 point tank guy... Basically a special cheap dude for each squad. no special force org shifting crap, just cool guys that do neat stuff.


the real new cover has been sighted!

I have a new question: Can the primaris psyker (or anyone else) be equipped with a psychic hood? Even if his powers aren't spectacular some dispel dice could come in handy.

"Well, I know better than to keep arguing here. "

don't feel bad. it's hard to argue with someone that has a tank shocking Vendetta!

ShumaGorath wrote:

Respectfully, I think it's foolish to debate with you because you don't debate. You pick a side and shout about it until everybody else moves on. It's fun to rebut now and then, but any lengthy discussion shows that you frankly aren't particularly interested in discussing the topic, just being right.

I think you have to try a game or two playing guard against SM, to see our point. I play against SM, and one time 1 CSQ 2 SQ with plasmagun spent 3 turns shooting on a tactical sq (10 smurfs) and killed 5 of them... 3 turns... They weren't even in cover just standing in the field.

Personali I think you just simply jelous about the new codex.
I think I'm gonna ignore you for a while, because your ranting makes this thread unpleasant to read.

alarmingrick wrote:"Well, I know better than to keep arguing here. "

don't feel bad. it's hard to argue with someone that has a tank shocking Vendetta!

Shumhammer 40,000 is a magical place.

Hmm, the idea of cramming ten or eleven special characters into a single army is a fun prospect.

Having so many special characters makes them kinda un-special. I will be thinking of my special characters as generic, un-named leaders, or heroes of my army rather than a particular hero of a particular army that is not mine.

50gaurdsmen & a commissar (285pt), 51 T3 wounds stubborn/fearless?

I'd love to take a unit this big, but I fear that flamers and whirlwinds would have too much fun against me. Also, a 30 man ork unit vs a 50 man guard unit is gonna be rough for the guard unless the guard manage to "for cadia!" charge the orks, which would be tricky seeing as the orks have the advantage of Waaagh! movement.
One thing I am excited about though is the run 3d6 and pick highest order, that's going to be very useful. When the options are a go to ground order, run order, and lasgun order, I have a feeling the lasguns and runs will be used about 50/50 for the first half of the game, and after that take cover orders will be mixed in. It makes me wonder if I should take 2 or 3 platoon HQs, 1 order each doesn't go too far unless you make uber units.