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I've used a 50 conscript unit + Commissar as a screen / meatshield for IG.

String them out in a broad single or double line across your deployment zone (terrain permitting) & your opponenet has to make a LD test to reach the unit beyond it.

My basic battle line is to have 50 conscripts in front of my 50 man Cadian platoon w/ heavy bolters, then my 2nd troops choice 50 Valhallans with mortars (heavy weapopn squads to taste, idealy on raised terrain firing over the mass of grunts).

That way the conscripts soak up a fair degree of fire, the Cadians arent getting shot at all the time & the Valhallans can keep a sustained barrage or mortar fire going for as long as possible.

ph34r wrote:Shumhammer 40,000 is a magical place.

Nice!

@ ph34r
you have been siggied!

Dhugs wrote:I've used a 50 conscript unit + Commissar as a screen / meatshield for IG.

String them out in a broad single or double line across your deployment zone (terrain permitting) & your opponenet has to make a LD test to reach the unit beyond it.

that would have worked in 4th edition but the current one doesn't have targetting priority rules.

Kungfuhustler wrote:
the real new cover has been sighted!

lol, you're about 2 weeks too late for the IG cover thread/joke party. it was fun while it lasted...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/232092.page



Yesterday I fielded a 2000pt IG army using the rumors/rules posted here by middle and on warseer collated by the dude. unfortunately due to time constraints and less than optimal planning, we didn't get too many turns in (only 3). in fact, due to bad reserve rolls despite an astropath advisor, my stormtroopers (2 squads of 10) never made it into the game. lumbering behemoth was usefull as i did end up moving one of my russes. the orders were quite useful but i only remembered them for ONE TURN! since they're new, i forgot about them until i had already fired most of my worthwhile units. not having a vox in heavy weapons teams was quite a detriment as 2 of 3 of mine failed their ld8 morale roles needed. depending on the rules for creed/kell, they might be worth the approx 150 point sink. does kell make all units who recieve the command squads orders test on the officers ld?

I want to defend some of the statements made by Shuma, as I agree with them. I think 10 points might be an appropriate cost for power weapons on Guard Sergeants.

My reasoning:

In the previous edition, 10 points for a power weapon would never be worth it on a Sergeant, and 5 wouldn't be either, even if it were legal, because there is no way a squad of guard could stand up in combat long enough for the power weapon to be effective. 5 point power weapons were doubly bad for officers, because they were independent characters, and wouldn't last in combat even if they were in squads larger than 5.

In the current rumored codex, anyone who pays 10 points for a power weapon on a Sergeant in a 10 man squad is making a bad list. There are a lot of places in a Guard army that can hold special weapons, and 10 points is 1 or 2 of those.

However, and herein lies the rub, Guard now have the option of taking effectively larger squads due to combining squads in a platoon. Imagine 20-40 Guardsmen, with a commissar leading them. That's 30-50 points to get all your leaders power weapons. This squad will, in all probability, not break due to the influence of the Commissar.

Let's take 30 Guardsmen +1 Commissar. At this point, you don't have a single 10 point power weapon on one guy in a 10 man squad, you have four 10 point power weapons in a 31 man stubborn squad. 12 WS3, S3, I3 power weapon attacks per turn, AKA slightly less than 2 dead MEQs/turn of combat, in addition to what the rest of the squad can do. Furthermore, as the squad fights, it looses hardly any combat ability.

This squad is a sizable fraction of points that could simply be spent on more guns, the traditional, and reliable approach. However, this is 5th edition. Objectives matter. This squad can be issued the RUN! order to get where it needs to go. It can be issued the FRFSRF! order to deal out wounds to whoever is nearby. It WILL be assaulted, and in that case, I think it is worth 10 points per power weapon (40 points) to substantially increase the kill potential of the squad.

It's certainly not a no-brainer choice. I think arguments can be made for not taking the power weapons, but in this type of squad pattern (the only type of squad I'd consider taking power weapons for) 5 points is probably too cheap.

The codex authors basically gave us a platform for taking power weapons, and upped their cost. I find this preferable to cheap, unusable power weapons.

wouldn't this whole 5 or 10pt discussion be better suited to... i dunno... the DISCUSSION forum? you're not discussing whether or not the 10pt power sword is either correct news or a rumor, just debating it's utility verses the previous cost. i enjoy limited discussions on the merits of new codexes but the arguements for both sides are now just going in circles. i'd prefer not to read another 5 pages regarding 10pt power swords in addition to the multiple pages on 16pt stormtroopers worthiness, 40pt ogryn cost, etc.

So only one character failed to come back from the 2ed codex...my favorite cheapest special character in the game. The ratling sniper, Rumpstart i think was his name...i liked that little guy...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Focued, it's been said a dozen times by a dozen different people. I shouldn't have to repeat it when you can just back track over pages 18 and 19 and see what people said so far. Read what Polonius said, what I said and what others said. It's not hard.

AAwww, Its cute when you resort to childish mispelling of a name in a vague attempt at an insult. You know thats your tell, don't you? That whenever someone is politely and quietly proving you wrong, you resort to little slurs and attempts to belittle them.

This time it backfired on you, because I was quietly reading, as your attempt at a patronizing tone suggest I should. I was reading as you argued, (I'm paraphrasing here) that weapon effectiveness should not effect the cost and that taking into account that power gamers might/will try to exploit power combos as part of your game design is poor way to design.

Go back and read what you typed and think about how illogical your argument sounds. I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I'm just pointing out that what you were saying makes you look as if you might not be the most logical person. I know that you get into heated arguments with certain posters on this forum that results in a sometimes surly tone. I feel that this time you let it get to you where you made an argument that wasn't one of your better ones. You often have really good, if somewhat harsh or dour,logical assesments. I'm just politely disagreeing with this one because it is neither good or logical.

Edit for added sentence

Shumhammer 40,000 is a magical place.

Shumahammer is a place where people don't cry on the internet because they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with. It's a place where things are costed reasonably and people understand that game balance revolves around creating a game environment where things are equal, not where things are "what you want to see". Shumahammer is a place where the magical idea of a balanced game environment means that things like power weapons will never see play in guard armies because they are a stupid upgrade to cheap numerous ablative squads that likely exist as a speed bump and in which the weapon itself has no realistic use at any point value. Shumahammer is a game where 25 point sentinels are rediculous, the vendetta is 50 points too cheap, ogryn are unreasonable at 40 points a pop and a deep striking suicide squad with tri firing ap3 lasguns and rerollable deep strikes is worth the cost of a basic tactical marine.

Shumahammer is a place where people with reasonable opinions are untainted by the QQ of several years of poor guard performance that causes posters to try and overbalance the game then state that they would "be happy" if they were considered the new over powered kiddie build army.

Its a place where the imperial guard are not a close combat force and in which people read some of the non IG centric novels. It's a place where my marines don't get to single handedly kill fifty guardsman in close combat despite it also being in the fluff.


Its a place where you all belong, yet none of you will ever be.

So... Shumahammer is a fantasyland!

AlexCage wrote:So... Shumahammer is a fantasyland!

Its a land where people both want a balanced version of 40k and understand how that is actually achieved. So yeah, not even the game designers live there. It basically is a fantasy land.

In no way would cheap power weapons make IG an assault army. You are taking the smallest bit of options to an illogical extreme. By your same logic marine power weapons should cost 40 points, but they don't for a reason.
Power Weapons != assault army, shooty army != never need to fight assault

Anyway, since ogryns are effectively dead, are RR enough to form a counter charge? Even 50 guardsmen won't kill much, not dying doesn't count for much when the enemy is still contesting an objective.

focusedfire wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Focued, it's been said a dozen times by a dozen different people. I shouldn't have to repeat it when you can just back track over pages 18 and 19 and see what people said so far. Read what Polonius said, what I said and what others said. It's not hard.

AAwww, Its cute when you resort to childish mispelling of a name in a vague attempt at an insult. You know thats your tell, don't you? That whenever someone is politely and quietly proving you wrong, you resort to little slurs and attempts to belittle someone.

Odds are very good that this is a simple misspelling. HBMC in particular has a tendancy towards dropping letters.

Believe me, if he wants to mock your name, it won't be nearly so subtle.

This time it backfired on you, because I was quietly reading, as your attempt at a patronizing tone suggest I should. I was reading as you argued, (I'm paraphrasing here) that weapon effectiveness should not effect the cost and that taking into account that power gamers might/will try to exploit power combos as part of your game design is poor way to design.

Go back and read what you typed and think about how illogical your argument sounds. I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I'm just point out that what you were saying makes you look as if you might not be the most logical person. I know that you get into heated arguments with certain posters on this forum that results in a sometimes surly tone. I feel that this time you let it get to you where you made an argument that wasn't one of your better ones. You often have really good, if somewhat harsh or dour, assesments. I'm just politely disagreeing with this one.

The point is simple: if the situation is such that a general-use item (a power weapon) can be combined with a specific-use item (a special character's rules) in such a way as to significantly boost the power of the general-use item, then the reasonable game-design decision is to cost that factor into the specific-use item, NOT the general-use item.

If, as GW seems to have done here and as you seem to support, you price a specific use into a general-use item, all you do is turn the general-use item into a specific-use item - it is overpriced in every situation where the power-multiplying special-use item isn't taken/available.

And this, of course, completely neglects whether any of the IG special rules are such that a power weapon is ever worth 10 pts on a WS 3, S3, T3, I3, W1 model.

Does anyone else think that Knight Commander Pask+Demolisher is a good answer for Nob Bikers?

Even if you only get 3 hits against a Nob Biker, you ignore their cover, their FNP, and their armor save, so all they have left is a 5+ invul, you'll kill around 2 Bikers.

And that's pretty good, imho.

In no way would cheap power weapons make IG an assault army. You are taking the smallest bit of options to an illogical extreme. By your same logic marine power weapons should cost 40 points, but they don't for a reason.
Power Weapons != assault army, shooty army != never need to fight assault

No, I'm stating that the upgrade given the fact that it's little more than a one in three chance of killing a marine before your squad is rolled over should be worth that effect. A regular marines power sword has a one in two chance of killing a marine and costs three times as much. Statistically it should be in the ~8 point range as an upgrade, not 5 and not 10. It's my general preference when you run into a situation like this that the item should cost more in order to prevent codex creep.

No power weapon cost could make the guard an assault army. They would have to be unfairly cheap and overeffective to see use because utilizing them goes against the actual function of the guard force.

Anyway, since ogryns are effectively dead, are RR enough to form a counter charge? Even 50 guardsmen won't kill much, not dying doesn't count for much when the enemy is still contesting an objective.

Ogryns weren't dead before? Counter charging isn't taking an objective, that finishing up after your army shoots the objective to death. RR's will be pretty good at that considering their function as a one turn glass hammer.

Gestalt wrote:Anyway, since ogryns are effectively dead, are RR enough to form a counter charge? Even 50 guardsmen won't kill much, not dying doesn't count for much when the enemy is still contesting an objective.

Rough riders are still useful, although 5e made them more difficult to use (harder to hide). If you can get Furious Charge going in there, even better. If they were riding low-slung lizards, instead of tall horses, you could hide them behind Chimerae.

For counter-assault purposes, if you're not comfortable relying on pure firepower to clear an objective, consider Grey Knight Terminators. No more expensive than Ogryn, but far more effective for the necessary task of removing those hard-to-kill units from your objectives. But for me, I'm going to stick with guns. PHQs still carry around 4 specials, which is a nice concentrated burst of flamer/melta loving. (Save your plasma guns for the CHQ, at BS 4.)

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Even if you only get 3 hits against a Nob Biker, you ignore their cover,

Whoa, what? Why do you ignore their cover, exactly? I don't recall seeing any other Leman than the Nova that ignores cover...

Vladsimpaler wrote:Does anyone else think that Knight Commander Pask+Demolisher is a good answer for Nob Bikers?

Even if you only get 3 hits against a Nob Biker, you ignore their cover, their FNP, and their armor save, so all they have left is a 5+ invul, you'll kill around 2 Bikers.

And that's pretty good, imho.

I would probably take vendettas over the demolisher for that. ~six twin linked lascanons are going to do the same job but won't be as vulnerable given their speed and scout ability. They will be able to much better kite the bikers and use terrain to their advantage.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I would probably take vendettas over the demolisher for that. ~six twin linked lascanons are going to do the same job but won't be as vulnerable given their speed and scout ability. They will be able to much better kite the bikers and use terrain to their advantage.

You see, what pisses me off about this Codex is not the fact that whenever you suggest a strong unit someone counters and says the Vendetta serves the same purpose, but better. But the fact that they're friggin' RIGHT.

If Vendettas become our Nob Bikers then I'm filling my FA slots with Sentinels and Hellhounds just to protest.



... Sometimes I think I LIKE losing...

ShumaGorath wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Does anyone else think that Knight Commander Pask+Demolisher is a good answer for Nob Bikers?

Even if you only get 3 hits against a Nob Biker, you ignore their cover, their FNP, and their armor save, so all they have left is a 5+ invul, you'll kill around 2 Bikers.

And that's pretty good, imho.

I would probably take vendettas over the demolisher for that. ~six twin linked lascanons are going to do the same job but won't be as vulnerable given their speed and scout ability. They will be able to much better kite the bikers and use terrain to their advantage.

Not really.

6 T-l'd shots, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds. One is allocated to the Warboss (won't be insta-killing him with S9). In a non-turbo round, you'll likely vape 1 (1.37) Nob (4+ cover), with a 50% shot at wounding the Warboss. In a turbo round, you may vape one Nob (0.92), with a 33% chance of wounding the warboss.

"Fire on my target" and special weapons squads (melta or demo charges) seems like the most cost-effective approach to dealing with Nob Bikers, at least in non-KP missions.

Vendettas are no faster than a Leman Russ because they have to move 6" max to shoot. Either way you won't be kiting bikers anyway, if they are out of charge range they would be boosting anyway.

Which leads to what I wanted about counter-charge. I was referring more to what you use to help get the bikers off your objective on your side that the bikers charged. Or bloodcrushers, ect.

Janthkin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Does anyone else think that Knight Commander Pask+Demolisher is a good answer for Nob Bikers?

Even if you only get 3 hits against a Nob Biker, you ignore their cover, their FNP, and their armor save, so all they have left is a 5+ invul, you'll kill around 2 Bikers.

And that's pretty good, imho.

I would probably take vendettas over the demolisher for that. ~six twin linked lascanons are going to do the same job but won't be as vulnerable given their speed and scout ability. They will be able to much better kite the bikers and use terrain to their advantage.

Not really.

6 T-l'd shots, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds. One is allocated to the Warboss (won't be insta-killing him with S9). In a non-turbo round, you'll likely vape 1 (1.37) Nob (4+ cover), with a 50% shot at wounding the Warboss. In a turbo round, you may vape one Nob (0.92), with a 33% chance of wounding the warboss.

"Fire on my target" and special weapons squads (melta or demo charges) seems like the most cost-effective approach to dealing with Nob Bikers, at least in non-KP missions.

If they space the bikes right the demolisher would see similar results (4.5 hits with a large blast is pretty good on a 2" coherency biker squad, those models are huge). I think maxing battlecanons is going to be the key here for IG against bikers. The battlecanon doesn't kill the warboss, but for the seven hundred point cost of a bike squad you can have 5 battlecanon spewing russes. Five battlecannons averaging 4 hits per shot ~16 hits, ~14 wounds, ~5 wounds even through turbo boosting. In one round of shooting they will kill a full half of the squad.

@ Janthkin- First,What I'm getting at is that a powersword should never be considered a general use item. Especially for the shooting themed IG.
My stance is that if it were general use it wouldn't be a special equipment upgrade.


Second, With the way everyone is howling about having to take special upgrade chatcters then it would only compound the matter by making them more expensive and making you pay for something that you may not use.
This has been one of HBMC primarary rants about costing in the past. That you shouldn't have to pay for something that you aren't necessarilly going to use.
Now, I find him arguing against what he proposed.

The way its set up now, You get the Special character at a decent price and only those that wish to use the special rule to its max effectiveness have to pay for it through buying the weapons.

Other players aren't forced to eat the cost of the power combo and each player gets to determine the level of expenditure and commitment to that particular combo, as opposed to it being force fed to the whole army through an overpriced character.


Third, This way of doing it allows you to only have to pay for the ability on the units that will be enhanced. So, Yeah I find 10pts fair for what will be a S4 I4 4 power weapon attacks on the assault a fair price. Its also flexible and leaves a lot of how many points your going to use up to the player.

Now, yes, it is overpriced if your not using the special ability. This is why Orders and these New/Old special characters replaced Doctrines. Also, doesn't the priest convey something like Furous Assault on the unit if he is included? Haven't heard for sure in the new codex yet.


BTW Thank you for your very civil post.


Edit spelling

I agree, the basic LRBT is still going to be the workhorse of the Guard. It is still some of the best 150pts you can spend in the game.

However, I still think IG will be in need of an ap2 killer. If only to keep termies from getting too aggressive with your gunlines.

There is really two ways to go imo, cheap LRDemo 165, or all out with a Executioner with plasmasponsons.


Then just add a 50man unit of guardsmen lead by a commissar, place them spread out around your tanks, and have some fun

ShumaGorath wrote:

Shumhammer 40,000 is a magical place.

Shumahammer is a place where people don't cry on the internet because they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with. It's a place where things are costed reasonably and people understand that game balance revolves around creating a game environment where things are equal, not where things are "what you want to see". Shumahammer is a place where the magical idea of a balanced game environment means that things like power weapons will never see play in guard armies because they are a stupid upgrade to cheap numerous ablative squads that likely exist as a speed bump and in which the weapon itself has no realistic use at any point value. Shumahammer is a game where 25 point sentinels are rediculous, the vendetta is 50 points too cheap, ogryn are unreasonable at 40 points a pop and a deep striking suicide squad with tri firing ap3 lasguns and rerollable deep strikes is worth the cost of a basic tactical marine.

Shumahammer is a place where people with reasonable opinions are untainted by the QQ of several years of poor guard performance that causes posters to try and overbalance the game then state that they would "be happy" if they were considered the new over powered kiddie build army.

Its a place where the imperial guard are not a close combat force and in which people read some of the non IG centric novels. It's a place where my marines don't get to single handedly kill fifty guardsman in close combat despite it also being in the fluff.


Its a place where you all belong, yet none of you will ever be.

does gorath workshop charge for shumahammer models based on points cost or how expensive/difficult the model is to actually produce?

ShumaGorath wrote:
If they space the bikes right the demolisher would see similar results (4.5 hits with a large blast is pretty good on a 2" coherency biker squad, those models are huge). I think maxing battlecanons is going to be the key here for IG against bikers. The battlecanon doesn't kill the warboss, but for the seven hundred point cost of a bike squad you can have 5 battlecanon spewing russes. Five battlecannons averaging 4 hits per shot ~16 hits, ~14 wounds, ~5 wounds even through turbo boosting. In one round of shooting they will kill a full half of the squad.

This is one of the few benefits I see with the squadron rules that I haven't seen anyone mention (although I haven't necessarily read the entire thread). Since 3 lrbt tanks are one squad, the biker player will only be able to allocate one wound to the warboss and the rest go into the squad. This I think will also help when firing at large units and bunched up squads in cover because they won't be able to remove models to reduce the effectiveness of subsequent shots from the same squad.

warboss wrote:does gorath workshop charge for shumahammer models based on points cost or how expensive/difficult the model is to actually produce?

If it's the latter Shumahammer sounds like the best game ever.

does gorath workshop charge for shumahammer models based on points cost or how expensive/difficult the model is to actually produce?

Yes and no. That would make it unfair to ork players who would have to spend upwards of 100% more for an army. Its a combination of the general cost of the model and the point value of the model itself. That way an ork squad box is the same as a tac squad box yet costs the same (Despite orks having almost twice as many models). Yet both a trukk and a rhino are the same price.

That way no matter the army you chose to enter you're looking at a similar expenditure by the end of it. No more "cheap" or "expensive" armies. As a balancing feature smaller squadie boxes like tac squads would likely have more bitz for conversion.

focusedfire wrote:@ Janthkin- First,What I'm getting at is that a powersword should never be considered a general use item. Especially for the shooting themed IG.
My stance is that if it were general use it wouldn't be a special equipment upgrade.

Let's define terms:
"general use" - an item/rule you have access to, without having to purchase a special item first. You don't have to buy a special character in order to take a power weapon.

Second, With the way everyone is howling about having to take special upgrade chatcters then it would only compound the matter by making them more expensive and making you pay for something that you may not use.
This has been one of HBMC primarary rants about costing in the past. That you shouldn't have to pay for something that you aren't necessarilly going to use.
Now, I find him arguing against what he proposed.

Then you have been misunderstanding his point for a very long time. HBMC hates the concept of "unlockable" rules, as implemented via special characters. (E.g., if you want to field a Deathwing army, you just have to buy this special character to do it!) For that matter, so do I.

The way its set up now, You get the Special character at a decent price and only those that wish to use the special rule to its max effectiveness have to pay for it through buying the weapons.

Other players aren't forced to eat the cost of the power combo and each player gets to determine the level of expenditure and commitment to that particular combo, as opposed to it being force fed to the whole army through an overpriced character.

See, you've got this exactly backwards. As presented in the new codex, everyone is forced to pay for part of the value of the special character (through increased cost of power weapons). Only those who then take the special character AND power weapons will actually get something closer to a worthwhile return on investment.

In practice, it just means that the option is meaningless - no one will take power weapons in a competitive list.

Third, This way of doing it allows you to only have to pay for the ability on the units that will be enhanced. So, Yeah I find 10pts fair for what will be a S4 I4 on the assault a fair price. Its also flexible and leaves a lot of how many points your going to use up to the player.

No, you have to pay for the ability on any unit you give a power weapon to. They are only "enhanced" if you also take the corresponding character (and get the order off).

Now, yes, it is overpriced if your not using the special ability. This is why Orders and these New/Old special characters replaced Doctrines. Also, doesn't the priest convey something like Furous Assault on the unit if he is included? Haven't heard for sure in the new codex yet.

See, that's the whole point - the weapon is overpriced in it's default state. It may* be priced more correctly for a "Furious Charge" scenario, but that's not the base situation. It makes more sense, from a game design standpoint, to have the points costs for discrete items/rules self-contained: a power weapon is worth X, and should cost X. A special character is worth Y, and should cost Y. A power weapon shouldn't cost (X + 1/z(Y)), with the special character then costing some fractional amount less!

The priest, if I remember a few posts back correctly, allows rerolls on the charge. This should be a cost associated with the priest, not spread across the priest, the officers, and the weapons.

*Given that Orders are limited in number/turn, limited in range, require a leadership test, require the officer to still be alive, and (in the case of Furious Charge) don't work in your opponent's phase (so no S4 I4 if you're being charged), I continue to dispute whether a power weapon is worth 10 pts in a guardsman's hands.

warboss wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Shumhammer 40,000 is a magical place.

Shumahammer is a place where people don't cry on the internet because they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with. It's a place where things are costed reasonably and people understand that game balance revolves around creating a game environment where things are equal, not where things are "what you want to see". Shumahammer is a place where the magical idea of a balanced game environment means that things like power weapons will never see play in guard armies because they are a stupid upgrade to cheap numerous ablative squads that likely exist as a speed bump and in which the weapon itself has no realistic use at any point value. Shumahammer is a game where 25 point sentinels are rediculous, the vendetta is 50 points too cheap, ogryn are unreasonable at 40 points a pop and a deep striking suicide squad with tri firing ap3 lasguns and rerollable deep strikes is worth the cost of a basic tactical marine.

Shumahammer is a place where people with reasonable opinions are untainted by the QQ of several years of poor guard performance that causes posters to try and overbalance the game then state that they would "be happy" if they were considered the new over powered kiddie build army.

Its a place where the imperial guard are not a close combat force and in which people read some of the non IG centric novels. It's a place where my marines don't get to single handedly kill fifty guardsman in close combat despite it also being in the fluff.


Its a place where you all belong, yet none of you will ever be.

does gorath workshop charge for shumahammer models based on points cost or how expensive/difficult the model is to actually produce?

I think he keep forgetting that this is a GAME. And fluff is only secondary. If they make the rulebooks fluff wise then IG could field 323213413 million man against 1 million smurfs. So he's just ranting.
Shumma: A space marine takes defeat with pride.