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Hey, I was thinking about something - I know that Commanders may issue orders to other squads while they are in a vehicle, but that other squads in vehicles may not receive orders from a Commander. What about that Commander's own squad? If the Commander and his Command Squad are all loaded up in a Chimera - can he give orders to the men in his squad?

I mean, let's say you decide to take a Company Commander and load up his squad with 4 Vets w/ Meltas - can he give them "Bring it down!" to twin-link the meltas?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Hey, I was thinking about something - I know that Commanders may issue orders to other squads while they are in a vehicle, but that other squads in vehicles may not receive orders from a Commander. What about that Commander's own squad? If the Commander and his Command Squad are all loaded up in a Chimera - can he give orders to the men in his squad?

I mean, let's say you decide to take a Company Commander and load up his squad with 4 Vets w/ Meltas - can he give them "Bring it down!" to twin-link the meltas?

that's some serious johnny cochrane you're channelling there, DBM... if they worded the rule that way or FAQed it so, i would lose what little respect i have for GW's design team.

focusedfire wrote:

AAwww, Its cute when you resort to childish mispelling of a name in a vague attempt at an insult. You know thats your tell, don't you? That whenever someone is politely and quietly proving you wrong, you resort to little slurs and attempts to belittle them.

This time it backfired on you, because I was quietly reading, as your attempt at a patronizing tone suggest I should. I was reading as you argued, (I'm paraphrasing here) that weapon effectiveness should not effect the cost and that taking into account that power gamers might/will try to exploit power combos as part of your game design is poor way to design.

Go back and read what you typed and think about how illogical your argument sounds. I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I'm just pointing out that what you were saying makes you look as if you might not be the most logical person. I know that you get into heated arguments with certain posters on this forum that results in a sometimes surly tone. I feel that this time you let it get to you where you made an argument that wasn't one of your better ones. You often have really good, if somewhat harsh or dour,logical assesments. I'm just politely disagreeing with this one because it is neither good or logical.

Edit for added sentence

Let's take a look.

Statement 1: "I'm just politely disagreeing."

Statement 2: "...you might not be the most logical person".

Statement 3: (OK, this is from me) Read Rule #1. There's a convenient link in my sig below. What you said wasn't polite, and you knew it, but you tried to cover your butt by saying that you were being polite.

I really don't understand why being polite is so difficult. You can disagree, debate and argue while still being polite. You have resorted to personal attacks. Please refrain from doing this.

BoxANT wrote:What would make a better meatshield/tarpit?

7 Ogyrns (290pt), so 21 T5 wounds, stubborn.

or

50gaurdsmen & a commissar (285pt), 51 T3 wounds stubborn/fearless?



The guardsmen shoot better, hold objectives better, do more damage on the charge, and imo are even better tarpits.

This is a perfectly valid question. I'm not going to disagree with your implication, but I'd like to add some more perspective.

You said tarpit, which leads me to belive that you don't want to win combat, you don't want your unit back, you just want it to hold as long as it can. Well 50 conscripts (although a MASSIVE footprint and PITA to move/run in a timed tourney setting) is better in that regard.

However, the combination of low strength low toughness and low number of attacks means, that the ratio of wounds it gives up to wounds it causes will never yield a combat win. Thats fine you are LD10 stubborn possibly with a re-roll.

The difference in the ogryn unit, is that although easier for an uber assault unit to chew through than 50 models, their combination of high toughness and high strength means that more situations will arise where you are actually winning combats.

Winning combats isn't something guard is used to, but its better than letting a tarpit disintegrate for lots of reasons.

I hope when you calculated who does more damage on the charge you didn't operate on the assumption that all 50 models would get to attack. That's just not going to happen. 30 man ork units regularly forgo 6-10 models worth of attacks when they charge. So I'd do my conscript calculations with 25 of them getting to attack on the charge.

Same goes with the shooting, on the move you've got 50 models with a 12" range. Practically speaking, you will never see 100 shots from them. I have never seen 30 orks get all 60 of their shoota shots off and they have 18" range.

Ultimately, ogryns probably aren't for me, but when you make a comparison between a pure defensive tarpit and them, know that you are getting something else beyond stubbornness with them. Whether or not you want to invest in that something else is another post

warboss wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:Hey, I was thinking about something - I know that Commanders may issue orders to other squads while they are in a vehicle, but that other squads in vehicles may not receive orders from a Commander. What about that Commander's own squad? If the Commander and his Command Squad are all loaded up in a Chimera - can he give orders to the men in his squad?

I mean, let's say you decide to take a Company Commander and load up his squad with 4 Vets w/ Meltas - can he give them "Bring it down!" to twin-link the meltas?

that's some serious johnny cochrane you're channelling there, DBM... if they worded the rule that way or FAQed it so, i would lose what little respect i have for GW's design team.

If the Company Command Squad don't fit, you must acquit!

I thought that the twin link only applied to heavy weapons in the target squad?

Ogryns wont win many more combats than guardsmen, they still take more wounds than they can give out.

I haven't seen anything that says that it's for heavy weapons only. Wonder if middle can comment?

Shep wrote:This is a perfectly valid question. I'm not going to disagree with your implication, but I'd like to add some more perspective.

You said tarpit, which leads me to belive that you don't want to win combat, you don't want your unit back, you just want it to hold as long as it can. Well 50 conscripts (although a MASSIVE footprint and PITA to move/run in a timed tourney setting) is better in that regard.

However, the combination of low strength low toughness and low number of attacks means, that the ratio of wounds it gives up to wounds it causes will never yield a combat win. Thats fine you are LD10 stubborn possibly with a re-roll.

The difference in the ogryn unit, is that although easier for an uber assault unit to chew through than 50 models, their combination of high toughness and high strength means that more situations will arise where you are actually winning combats.

Winning combats isn't something guard is used to, but its better than letting a tarpit disintegrate for lots of reasons.

I hope when you calculated who does more damage on the charge you didn't operate on the assumption that all 50 models would get to attack. That's just not going to happen. 30 man ork units regularly forgo 6-10 models worth of attacks when they charge. So I'd do my conscript calculations with 25 of them getting to attack on the charge.

Same goes with the shooting, on the move you've got 50 models with a 12" range. Practically speaking, you will never see 100 shots from them. I have never seen 30 orks get all 60 of their shoota shots off and they have 18" range.

Ultimately, ogryns probably aren't for me, but when you make a comparison between a pure defensive tarpit and them, know that you are getting something else beyond stubbornness with them. Whether or not you want to invest in that something else is another post

Yes, and no. I've already covered most of what I want to say about Ogryn in the Tactics forum (over here), but to touch on your points a little:

1) Conscripts/mega-platoons are almost never going to win an assault against any foe worth considering. You should not be charging with them, for the purposes of winning a combat. They will, however, tie a unit down (e.g., pin down an incoming unit *away* from an objective, and keep it there for a couple turns).

2) Ogryn will almost never be cost-effective as a counter-assault unit. In every conceivable counter-assault scenario, you would be better with a unit of Grey Knight Terminators, or just an equivalent weight in firepower.

3) When discussing unit roles, counter-assault is different from assault. The distinction is subtle, but important for the IG. What the IG need in a counter-assault unit is exemplified by the Rough Riders - hit a single troublesome enemy assault threat, and remove the threat; survival is optional. Troublesome things are typically high points/low model count - it's harder to bring adequate firepower to bear on 5 Assault Termies than 30 orks, for example.

Ogryn are actually a pretty good assault unit - they are resilient, and can beat up on other army's scoring units fairly effectively, and their cost per wound isn't insanely out of line with other armies (although the lack of a power weapon option is significant).

Crickey.

What are peoples thoughts on Vet Squads? Would a Veteran heavy army by too weak in terms of scoring units? Right now I'd love to do vets mounted in either Valkyries and/or Vendetta's with a small reserve of tanks.

Originally I thought about this:

Veteran/Valkyrie/Russ 1500pts:
HQ:
Not sure yet, thinking about maybe doing a primaris psycher?

Troops:
3x10 Vets w/2 Melta's 1 unit with Harker

Fast:
3x1 Valkyries or Vendetta's they would have Door gunners

Heavy:
2x2 Leman Russ' w/Hvy Bolters

Would that be too few troops? I figure soften up the opponent with the Russ', try to keep the Valks/Vends back or scoot them into decent firing positions and then drop Vets where needed or to take objectives?

Thoughts, am I heading in the right direction or am I barking up the wrong tree? I don't want to spam Valks/Vends but it would be nice to own a few =D

Plus I am using Catachans as my theme which I see as a hybrid of Apocalypse Now with some Tanks =D

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Meh, dont worry about ogryns, dont worry about conscript tarpits. Just buy a squad of rough riders, and kill what ever gets close to your lines.

Biophysic wrote:I want to defend some of the statements made by Shuma, as I agree with them. I think 10 points might be an appropriate cost for power weapons on Guard Sergeants.

My reasoning:

In the previous edition, 10 points for a power weapon would never be worth it on a Sergeant, and 5 wouldn't be either, even if it were legal, because there is no way a squad of guard could stand up in combat long enough for the power weapon to be effective. 5 point power weapons were doubly bad for officers, because they were independent characters, and wouldn't last in combat even if they were in squads larger than 5.

Good analysis, but actually I bought PWs on some of my JOs simply to force my opponent to split his attacks, and hopefully cause the squad to survive and hold for a turn, but yes, it was generally a pretty mediocre choice.

In the current rumored codex, anyone who pays 10 points for a power weapon on a Sergeant in a 10 man squad is making a bad list. There are a lot of places in a Guard army that can hold special weapons, and 10 points is 1 or 2 of those.

Agreed.

However, and herein lies the rub, Guard now have the option of taking effectively larger squads due to combining squads in a platoon. Imagine 20-40 Guardsmen, with a commissar leading them. That's 30-50 points to get all your leaders power weapons. This squad will, in all probability, not break due to the influence of the Commissar.

Let's take 30 Guardsmen +1 Commissar. At this point, you don't have a single 10 point power weapon on one guy in a 10 man squad, you have four 10 point power weapons in a 31 man stubborn squad. 12 WS3, S3, I3 power weapon attacks per turn, AKA slightly less than 2 dead MEQs/turn of combat, in addition to what the rest of the squad can do. Furthermore, as the squad fights, it looses hardly any combat ability.

This is a really good point. Anybody reading this could take notes, because Biophysic is showing you how to make a valid point and defend a position.

This squad is a sizable fraction of points that could simply be spent on more guns, the traditional, and reliable approach. However, this is 5th edition. Objectives matter. This squad can be issued the RUN! order to get where it needs to go. It can be issued the FRFSRF! order to deal out wounds to whoever is nearby. It WILL be assaulted, and in that case, I think it is worth 10 points per power weapon (40 points) to substantially increase the kill potential of the squad.

It's certainly not a no-brainer choice. I think arguments can be made for not taking the power weapons, but in this type of squad pattern (the only type of squad I'd consider taking power weapons for) 5 points is probably too cheap.

The codex authors basically gave us a platform for taking power weapons, and upped their cost. I find this preferable to cheap, unusable power weapons.

So, you're argument is that on a 31 man platform that's LD10, stubborn, and already runs, say 245pts with three autocannons, three flamers, commissar and power weapon, taking 10pt power weapons isn't a bad idea. This is actually pretty arguable, and might be where they're pulling their numbers from.

The problem I see is that you still have a squad that isn't particularly good in close combat, can still fail morale checks (even though it's unlikely), and costs far more than a 30 man boys mob and would get slapped around by any dedicated combat squad that hit it.

The comparison to the boys mob is notable, because they're a squad that can focus purely on assault (like IG can focus solely on shooting), but can switch to being a pretty strong shooting platform and nobody seems to think that's utterly ridiculous.

I think that you're probably right in that GW's tendency to conservatively price new options means that they were afraid of giant IG Squads with multiple hidden power weapons. I'm not sold that even then the power weapons themselves are proper at 5pts. Part of that is because I still think that IG are a touch over costed, stat-line for state line, at 50pts a squad. Compare them to Boys, who have access to decent heavy weapons and a ton more special rules, and the comparison really breaks down.

Still thought, Biophysic raises a good point, and while I'd want to run some numbers and play test it to be sure, I can see the fear that caused the 10pt cost.

I'm getting more excited for this codex. The arguments I've seen here and the debate over the usefulness of Ogryns seems like there may be some fun options in this codex, while still having some power builds for competitive play.

So while I can see a tournament army never including Ogryns, I don't think they are so bad that we won't ever see them in beer drinking garage games (which is a step above their previous incarnation).

I'm now looking at the FW Ogryns as potentially having a home in my Renegade IG army...

This is a really good point. Anybody reading this could take notes, because Biophysic is showing you how to make a valid point and defend a position.

Yes and repeated libelous sentences make you such the good debater yourself. As for the 40 man squad, I mentioned that posts and posts ago in reference to the costing of a power fist. I was not aware that guard sargeants couldn't take them and the point was basically dismissed as trolling.

AlexCage wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Even if you only get 3 hits against a Nob Biker, you ignore their cover,

Whoa, what? Why do you ignore their cover, exactly? I don't recall seeing any other Leman than the Nova that ignores cover...

Wait, does Pask not ignore cover now? If so then just ignore what I said.

Well, this sucks. Oh well, I figure that I can get the new codex from a torrent or something then.

Or I'll just use the old one. No biggie.

Ripper guns always seemed like pointless bashing tools to me the way they are used in 40k. They have a huge bayonet that looks like it would rip somthing apart... or rend it apart. could ogryn have rending? that would justify their price and make them more useful w/o forcing GW to make ogryn models with power weapons. anyone know for certain?

*EDIT: At least the bone ead' has a big bayonet

@ Janthkin-
1)By your definition, Powerfist are general use in a lot of armies.

2)Unlockable rules are there because there are some rules that are too powerful to be armywide and so that players have build flexibility within there armies.

Its unrealistic to hope for a Codex for every army variation. GW can't keep up with the ones they have now. What your proposing would force GW to write so many Codices that it would stagnate the game as far as updating goes.

3) No, I don't think I have it backwards. Your side of this debate has as much as admitted that even at 5pts the power weapons are a waste on a S3 I3 Guardsman. All that has happened is that there is now the ability to make a select number of units actually effective at an appropriate cost. If someone wants to waste those points of buying a HtH specific weapon for a Non-HtH specific unit/model its their loss.

4) No one is forcing you to equip the model with a powersword. Actually, if the the units are designed to work together then, ideally, the cost should be shared between the units involved. Something that they apparently did.


As always just my viewpoint and doesn't have to be shared by anyone else.

ShumaGorath wrote:

This is a really good point. Anybody reading this could take notes, because Biophysic is showing you how to make a valid point and defend a position.

Yes and repeated libelous sentences make you such the good debater yourself. As for the 40 man squad, I mentioned that posts and posts ago in reference to the costing of a power fist. I was not aware that guard sargeants couldn't take them and the point was basically dismissed as trolling.

If I missed it, I apologize.

Libelous, huh? Repeated libelous? I'm pretty sure I haven't said anything libelous, but feel free to PM anything you think qualifies.

My point was, in the middle of a heated debate, a poster made a well argued, well supported point that seemed to show an understanding of game mechanics, the reality of play, and how IG perform on the table top. It was a good post, and I would hope more posters post like that. I'm sorry you don't like the subtle insinuation that your posts don't argue a point well, but in general you suffer the same problem many folks here do: you allow your good points to get drowned out by a combination of attitude, shtick, and a refusal to admit that you're wrong. It's a trait often shared by your foils here, and it simply makes your posts less credible, and often less accurate. I was also trying to show that I am genuinely engaged in debate and discussion, and that I recognized this value. I'd rather negotiate than browbeat, I suppose.

I'm not telling anybody how to post, but I'm telling you there's a way to post that gets my attention.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Wait, does Pask not ignore cover now? If so then just ignore what I said.

Well, this sucks. Oh well, I figure that I can get the new codex from a torrent or something then.

Or I'll just use the old one. No biggie.

Did he ever? I don't ever remember reading it. That's not to say it wasn't rumoured/confirmed, I just never saw it. But then again, once I saw Pask was BS4 and allowed reroll to wound (Is that ONLY on MCs?) and +1 Armor Pen, I stopped reading. That's all I needed to hear.

AlexCage wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Wait, does Pask not ignore cover now? If so then just ignore what I said.

Well, this sucks. Oh well, I figure that I can get the new codex from a torrent or something then.

Or I'll just use the old one. No biggie.

Did he ever? I don't ever remember reading it. That's not to say it wasn't rumoured/confirmed, I just never saw it. But then again, once I saw Pask was BS4 and allowed reroll to wound (Is that ONLY on MCs?) and +1 Armor Pen, I stopped reading. That's all I needed to hear.

Hmm, for some reason I had read that he gave Crack Shot.

Still, 50 points for BS4 and a +1 to Pen is still pretty stinking good. Especially on the Demolisher. Ahhh....

A 50% chance of Penetrating Armor 14? Sign me up, please!

Hey, does anyone know if you can put Pask in the Multi-Melta Hound? Str 9 +2d6 armor penetration? Whee!

I can see me making a lot of armies with this guy. I'll change his name to protect the innocent.

Same with Harker. I'll rename him Sergeant S.L. Jackson, and rename his Heavy Bolter the BAMF Heavy Bolter...which stands for...uh...Bolt Action Machine Firearm. Yeah...

Janthkin wrote:1) Conscripts/mega-platoons are almost never going to win an assault against any foe worth considering. You should not be charging with them, for the purposes of winning a combat. They will, however, tie a unit down (e.g., pin down an incoming unit *away* from an objective, and keep it there for a couple turns).

Agree.

Janthkin wrote:2) Ogryn will almost never be cost-effective as a counter-assault unit. In every conceivable counter-assault scenario, you would be better with a unit of Grey Knight Terminators, or just an equivalent weight in firepower.

Agree. For at least 18 months. When the grey knight option is pulled from us, then we'll have to look at rough riders.

Janthkin wrote:3) When discussing unit roles, counter-assault is different from assault. The distinction is subtle, but important for the IG. What the IG need in a counter-assault unit is exemplified by the Rough Riders - hit a single troublesome enemy assault threat, and remove the threat; survival is optional. Troublesome things are typically high points/low model count - it's harder to bring adequate firepower to bear on 5 Assault Termies than 30 orks, for example.

Agree. That's why i thought putting ogryns up against conscripts or large platoons was unfair.

Janthkin wrote:Ogryn are actually a pretty good assault unit - they are resilient, and can beat up on other army's scoring units fairly effectively, and their cost per wound isn't insanely out of line with other armies (although the lack of a power weapon option is significant).

Agree.

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:What are peoples thoughts on Vet Squads? Would a Veteran heavy army by too weak in terms of scoring units? Right now I'd love to do vets mounted in either Valkyries and/or Vendetta's with a small reserve of tanks.

Originally I thought about this:

Veteran/Valkyrie/Russ 1500pts:
HQ:
Not sure yet, thinking about maybe doing a primaris psycher?

Troops:
3x10 Vets w/2 Melta's 1 unit with Harker

Fast:
3x1 Valkyries or Vendetta's they would have Door gunners

Heavy:
2x2 Leman Russ' w/Hvy Bolters

Would that be too few troops? I figure soften up the opponent with the Russ', try to keep the Valks/Vends back or scoot them into decent firing positions and then drop Vets where needed or to take objectives?

Thoughts, am I heading in the right direction or am I barking up the wrong tree? I don't want to spam Valks/Vends but it would be nice to own a few =D

Plus I am using Catachans as my theme which I see as a hybrid of Apocalypse Now with some Tanks =D

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Absolutely not. In fact the 3x10 vet in chimera rig is one of the two or three troops setups I ill regularly be running. the vet unit I like right now is this...

10x vets 3x meltas, 1x lascannon in naked chimera.

Hang out with your tanks, either giving cover to artillery or taking cover from russes, plunk away with the BS4 lascannon (or autocannon if you aren't already running tons of hydras) and then when its time, trundle off to the objectives, shredding hard targets along the way with your meltas.

Valk/vendetta is a great place to put a scoring unit, but I'm not sure if its for veterans. a 35 point naked special weapon squad makes a lot of sense in there. If you've got good shooting troops that you want to put in a transport, its hard to say no to the 5 firepoint chimera.

When you run mechanized vets, your ability to issue orders is essentially non-existent. I like your idea of just skipping the company command squad and looking at something else. I would probably do the same thing. I'm just having trouble deciding between the primaris or the lord commissar.

@Iorek, What should I have said?

When taking those words out of context they seem like a personal insult. But they were preceded with,"What you were saying makes you look as if....(insert the out of context line here)" The comment was directed and intended to be against his remark, not him personally.


Maybe I should have said what I was going to at first. That what he was saying was, IMO, illogical.

I was actually trying to avoid flaming by addressing how his statements came across, as oppossed to just claiming that his argument was illogical.


Now that you've come in and pointed out that you take my statement as an insult, I will of course retract it and I will further do this:


@HBMC, I apologize for my post. It was not my intent to personally attack you. I, actually hold your knowledge of the guard in high esteem and is why I mentioned a certain admiration for your "Often really good, if somewhat harsh or dour, logical assesments."

Anyway, please accept my apology

focusedfire wrote:AAwww, Its cute when you resort to childish mispelling of a name in a vague attempt at an insult.

Oh FFS... I missed an 's' in your name because I was typing the reply quickly. I wasn't trying to insult you.

Oh my i've created a monster. 22 pages.

focusedfire: ST's with airborne deployment may use the re-roll when they themselves deepstrike. Being chucked out of the back of a Valk / Vend is worked out with deepstrike rules but targetted along the path of the Valk / Vend, so there is a possibility of using the re-roll on that. I'll check the wording and get back to you.

Badger: I didn't check the inferno cannon template placement. I can look it up for you.

Commissar lords have no orders. Just the Ld 10 bubble.

Anung Un Rama: Penal custodian has a pistol and ccw and not a lasgun like the rest of the legionnaires. Thats about as special as he gets.

Raxmei: No psychic hoods.

warboss: A squad with Kell in it uses the ordering officers Ld and not it's own. Means you can have Creed buff another CCS that has Kell in if you should need to. Why you would? I can't think, but it's what his skill does.

Gestalt + Death By Monkeys: FRFSRF! is for lasguns. None of the other orders are limited to certain weapons. With Bring it Down! you may twin link anything you can think of that is not a friendly vehicle. Something i'm looking forward to is my PCS have always run with a couple of flamers in there, re-roll to hit? no thanks i'll have the re-roll to wound. And now one can be a heavy flamer. Oh the loving.

Also I don't know if anyone else has considered this, but I have a feeling the ordnance advisor may benefit from orders when he is throwing his earthshaker rounds about as it is 'his shooting'.

Re-roll the scatter??? Don't mind if I do. That is 30 points of filth right there.

H.B.M.C., Still please accept my apology. It was not my intent to insult you, either.

AAARGH missed one.

Death By Monkeys: There isn't a special mention for passing orders to a squad in a vehicle that your officer is in. I reckon it would just come under the 'Your vehicle is too noisy rule'

H.B.M.C. wrote:

focusedfire wrote:AAwww, Its cute when you resort to childish mispelling of a name in a vague attempt at an insult.

Oh FFS... I missed an 's' in your name because I was typing the reply quickly. I wasn't trying to insult you.

Yeah because you never do that to anybody .

focusedfire wrote:H.B.M.C., Still please accept my apology. It was not my intent to insult you, either.

Perhaps a case of leaping before you looked, hmm?

[EDIT]: Forget it... not worth it.

Ahh, personalatakka.com Has a ring to it, no?