Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sersi wrote:
Your reading that wrong. The 6++ invulnerable save is a a special rule for faithful units, which now includes Repentia as well. So its in addition to the standard 3+ armor save of Battle Sisters. Repentia apparently, get their current 4+ armor save, FNP, and a 6++ invulnerable save! I'd say that makes them worth taking, as they'll be far more resilient than they are currently. I'm not seeing anything to complain about with those rules.

As far as the AV11 transport vehicles go; how's that any different that what they have now. As far as we know Sister vehicles might get some additional save if a faithful unit is embarked. Kinda like the GK's save VS psy-powers for vehicles.

According to the rumors, each unit has their own specific faith power, which goes off on a 5+. We don't know how many dice we can roll to attempt a 5+, but the previous roll equal or higher than the number of models was a lot more reliable. Even if they did retain Spirit of the Martyr, having it go off on a 5+ is unreliable (unless you are rolling 2D6).

There's pros and cons to FNP. Pros it isn't negated by AP4. Cons, it's negated by Str8. Either way, according to the rumors, they are still foot slogging, which is craptastic for a unit that's sole purpose is assault. Until they have a reliable delivery method, they are not worth taking and forever will remain as paper weights.

Also, the problem with current sisters is lacking armor better than 11. If you think this isn't a problem, then I challenge you to play against Tyranids with 3 squad of 3 Hive Guards, Space Wolves with 18 Long Fangs with 15 Missile Launchers, Imperial Guard with a plethora of Vendettas and heavy support anti-tank range (including Autocannon Heavy Weapons team combine with orders), Tau fire Knife and Railguns, Dark Eldar dark lance spam, or Eldar mech. If you have played mech Sisters against any of these armies, then you will understand the current Sisters of Battle plight in lack of better armored transport. Even if you play MSU Immolator Spam with 12 tanks at 2000 points, you will still have problems against volume of anti-tank, which is so common in tournaments. This is one of the Achilles heal to the current Sisters. They depend so much on mobility. Without it, they suffer. To fix this, the new Sisters needs at least AV12 protection. I was hopping they would have the new Repressor with front AV12 and side AV11. Oh well.

so its the red thirst for ba but it actually has a down side. joy of joys

I like that acts of faith are literally acts of faith now. Just roll the dice and pray.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem with current sisters isn't lacking better armor. Space marines do just fine with rhinos chassis. The problem is sisters units themselves are a joke, and acts of faith gives them the opportunity to be mediocre.

evilsponge wrote:I like that acts of faith are literally acts of faith now. Just roll the dice and pray.

The problem with current sisters isn't lacking better armor. Space marines do just fine with rhinos chassis. The problem is sisters units themselves are a joke, and acts of faith gives them the opportunity to be mediocre.

acts of faith were dice rolls before. i think 4 were equal to or under the squads total number and 3 were over the squads total, ic's were leadership.

thats kinda were the inquisition came in imo.

bhsman wrote:...Maybe we should wait and read the entirety of the rules before passing judgement.

You know it's just the Internet rumor-hashing cycle. You almost sound like you think this time it'll be different.

Let me expedite this thread:
"Why SoB? My codex has suffered more injustice."
"I've been playing since 4th/3rd/Rogue Trader/I invented 40k."
"I don't want people jumping on my army's bandwagon, I like being the only SoB player/Why doesn't GW support my army better?"
"White Dwarf lists stinks"
"This is BS, I've waited 10 years and gotten nothing/This is BS, I'd rather have nothing now and get a real codex."
"Marines get all the good stuff!"
"Hurr" or somesuch
"Arby" or somesuch
"Fail" or somesuch
"SoB will now wait 1/2/5/129/infinite years to see a real codex."
"These rumors are weak."
"These rumors are over the top."
"These rumors are great."
"These rumors stink."
"These rumors don't sound right"
Some attempt to be clever with an image of salt.
"I will sell my models"
"I am never playing 40k again"
"I'm going to go broke"
"You know nothing"
"No, you know nothing"
"I can't wait"
"Ooh just in time for my birthday."

/thread

According to the rumors, each unit has their own specific faith power, which goes off on a 5+. We don't know how many dice we can roll to attempt a 5+, but the previous roll equal or higher than the number of models was a lot more reliable. Even if they did retain Spirit of the Martyr, having it go off on a 5+ is unreliable (unless you are rolling 2D6).

True, it depends on how the rules actually play out. If its any thing like WF power dice, it might not be to bad, as each faithful unit gets D6 Faith Points to burn each turn.

There's pros and cons to FNP. Pros it isn't negated by AP4. Cons, it's negated by Str8. Either way, according to the rumors, they are still foot slogging, which is craptastic for a unit that's sole purpose is assault. Until they have a reliable delivery method, they are not worth taking and forever will remain as paper weights.

FNP is negated but STR8 but you'll still get your 6++ invulnerable. Yes, they still have issues like their lack of a dedicated transport. But their improved resilience and ability to go down swinging still makes them better than what we have now, so it's not a nerf as you suggested.

Also, the problem with current sisters is lacking armor better than 11. If you think this isn't a problem, then I challenge you to play against Tyranids with 3 squad of 3 Hive Guards, Space Wolves with 18 Long Fangs with 15 Missile Launchers, Imperial Guard with a plethora of Vendettas and heavy support anti-tank range (including Autocannon Heavy Weapons team combine with orders), Tau fire Knife and Railguns, Dark Eldar dark lance spam, or Eldar mech. If you have played mech Sisters against any of these armies, then you will understand the current Sisters of Battle plight in lack of better armored transport. Even if you play MSU Immolator Spam with 12 tanks at 2000 points, you will still have problems against volume of anti-tank, which is so common in tournaments. This is one of the Achilles heal to the current Sisters. They depend so much on mobility. Without it, they suffer. To fix this, the new Sisters needs at least AV12 protection. I was hopping they would have the new Repressor with front AV12 and side AV11. Oh well.

FNP would be negated on str 6 if they remain t3... as it would cause instant death.

Some of these rules are making me feel a tad better, but I'm still worried about support after the WD rules.

6++ is a joke and FNP Repentias doesn't make them anymore durable. Its easy to shoot T3 models with volume of anti-infantry shooting. They will die in droves to shooting before they can ever assault. So unless there's a way to guarantee that they'll reach assault (perhaps fleet combined with the rumored scout and infiltrate?) they are useless.

Sersi, how often do you make 6++ saves when being assaulted my Terminators, Howling Banshees, Grey Knights, or Monstrous Creatures? If on average make more than 1/6 of them, then I question your dice.

charge from a rhino? its what i do with my stormraven a lot. if your an assault based unit you better move fast as hell or have a lot of ya or a tank.

kenzosan wrote:so its the red thirst for ba but it actually has a down side. joy of joys

You know that was a really obvious joke, right?

cygnnus wrote:Karamazov is gone?!?? Nuts... Anyone interested in a bare metal (non-Finecast!) unassembled Karamazov? :-(

Valete,

JohnS

Possibly - shoot me a PM.....

ubermosher wrote:
Let me expedite this thread:
"Why SoB? My codex has suffered more injustice."
"I've been playing since 4th/3rd/Rogue Trader/I invented 40k."
"I don't want people jumping on my army's bandwagon, I like being the only SoB player/Why doesn't GW support my army better?"
"White Dwarf lists stinks"
"This is BS, I've waited 10 years and gotten nothing/This is BS, I'd rather have nothing now and get a real codex."
"Marines get all the good stuff!"
"Hurr" or somesuch
"Arby" or somesuch
"Fail" or somesuch
"SoB will now wait 1/2/5/129/infinite years to see a real codex."
"These rumors are weak."
"These rumors are over the top."
"These rumors are great."
"These rumors stink."
"These rumors don't sound right"
Some attempt to be clever with an image of salt.
"I will sell my models"
"I am never playing 40k again"
"I'm going to go broke"
"You know nothing"
"No, you know nothing"
"I can't wait"
"Ooh just in time for my birthday."

/thread

Raw awesomeness. LOL. I think there's a psychology thesis in there somewhere.

Sersi wrote:

Honestly all this panicking is a bit pre-mature. Given the army in question can't we all have a little more Faith?

haha, Sersi wins the thread.

Now let's lock this thing and call it a night.

The loss of the Inquisition really puts me off Sisters of Battle. Going to have to change my Ordo Hereticus army now.

I just..really don't know how to take this news, and I am simply hoping that this codex is of the quality of the blood angels and dark angels get me by's of the past.

I am not sure if dropping half the units (from an already short army list), dropping the point costs of standards and raising the price for standards is the right strategy for renewing interest in Sororitas. And changing the background (no more Inquisition) without having a place to describe that change is also weird. All this doesn't make sense, so fits the recent GW decisions

Kroothawk wrote:And changing the background (no more Inquisition) without having a place to describe that change is also weird.

It's being changed back to what it was like before. If the Inquisition connection isn't mentioned at all, there's no need to explain its absence.

SabrX wrote:There's pros and cons to FNP. Pros it isn't negated by AP4. Cons, it's negated by Str8.

Str6.

Sisters are T3. So FNP on Sisters would be negated by strength 6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sersi wrote:each faithful unit gets D6 Faith Points to burn each turn.

... what.

Goddamnit. Why D6? That's just... ugh. Fething random ass dice rolls.

FNP is negated but STR8 but you'll still get your 6++ invulnerable. Yes, they still have issues like their lack of a dedicated transport. But their improved resilience and ability to go down swinging still makes them better than what we have now, so it's not a nerf as you suggested.

Noone suggested it was a nerf.

Only that repentia would still suck. Which is dependent on the price really.

Sersi wrote:That not at all the point I was making. You suggested that these rumors nerfed them and now they suck.

... no... that's not what was said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:And changing the background (no more Inquisition) without having a place to describe that change is also weird.

jjWhat change? Sisters were never strongly tied to the Inquisition to begin with, and that was just there so they'd have an excuse to copy/paste stuff from the daemonhunters codex anyway.

Kanluwen wrote: to reassure the playerbase that they're "not forgotten".

All I say to that is Tyranid Second Wave.

Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Blood Angels. All came out afterwards. All got second waves. Guard have had a 'second tank wave' and Marines can pretty much utilise any Marine wave themselves.

Tyranid. Second. Wave.

With regards to a SoB WD Codex? Eh. WoC all over again - kill the 'odd' bit now that it has its own codex/army/etc.

And no, 'finecosting' my metal 'nids doesn't count as a second wave

Wow, those rumours are pretty bad. "Lets ruin an army!"

Shame we cannot keep the current dex. It's actually quite strong right now, and I'm not talking overpriced immo spam. I dunno where people are getting this "sisters are non-competetive" idea. People should get out more. (I LOL'd when someone said that they were bottom 3rd teir competetive) Just b/c not many people play a codex doesnt mean it's weak, there may not be MANY uber-competetive builds out there but the codex has a couple of REALLY strong builds still.

I'm not certain those rumours are correct though. Faith seems TERRIBLE and with needless dice rolls.

Sisters armies (unless fully mounted) need a redemptionist or militia unit. It's fluffy, fun, sells models and is appealing to horde players where MEQ players can still go fully mounted.

my big worry is that repressors won't be in the WD codex. But otherwise I'll take what I can get.

The only real problem with SoB at the moment are their models, some of there units (Ok, mainly just the cannones) are some of the best value units in the game! My only quarrel with them is the fact that their an expensive all metal army (thats before I factor in being in Australia).

Ok, so they're not the most competitive army on the table, but I would still collect them if they had new models

Edit: On that note, I don't play SoB so I can't really make a valid point. Disregard what I said if I'm wrong

The Loss of the inquisition and all its trappings was not unexpected though.

So like Warriors of Chaos, who certainly suffered with their WD list, as mostly it was there to take away their Daemon allies, with little to no gain.

We'll have to hope that when the Sisters emerge from the flames of their ressurection via an actual Dex. They will have gained some lovely new things to put them back in the fight.

In the long run I'm happy to see them return to their original flavour myself, but it'll be some lean times for SoB players waiting for their new book I'll be reckoning.

ubermosher wrote:

bhsman wrote:...Maybe we should wait and read the entirety of the rules before passing judgement.

You know it's just the Internet rumor-hashing cycle. You almost sound like you think this time it'll be different.

Let me expedite this thread:
"Why SoB? My codex has suffered more injustice."
"I've been playing since 4th/3rd/Rogue Trader/I invented 40k."
"I don't want people jumping on my army's bandwagon, I like being the only SoB player/Why doesn't GW support my army better?"
"White Dwarf lists stinks"
"This is BS, I've waited 10 years and gotten nothing/This is BS, I'd rather have nothing now and get a real codex."
"Marines get all the good stuff!"
"Hurr" or somesuch
"Arby" or somesuch
"Fail" or somesuch
"SoB will now wait 1/2/5/129/infinite years to see a real codex."
"These rumors are weak."
"These rumors are over the top."
"These rumors are great."
"These rumors stink."
"These rumors don't sound right"
Some attempt to be clever with an image of salt.
"I will sell my models"
"I am never playing 40k again"
"I'm going to go broke"
"You know nothing"
"No, you know nothing"
"I can't wait"
"Ooh just in time for my birthday."

/dakkadakka

fixed that for you...


It this is different then any other thread on dakkadakka? 99% of what gets posted here is pointless and non-sensical, but we don't let that stop us most of the time...

Deadshane1 wrote:Wow, those rumours are pretty bad. "Lets ruin an army!"

Shame we cannot keep the current dex. It's actually quite strong right now, and I'm not talking overpriced immo spam. I dunno where people are getting this "sisters are non-competetive" idea. People should get out more. (I LOL'd when someone said that they were bottom 3rd teir competetive) Just b/c not many people play a codex doesnt mean it's weak, there may not be MANY uber-competetive builds out there but the codex has a couple of REALLY strong builds still.

I'm not certain those rumours are correct though. Faith seems TERRIBLE and with needless dice rolls.

Sisters armies (unless fully mounted) need a redemptionist or militia unit. It's fluffy, fun, sells models and is appealing to horde players where MEQ players can still go fully mounted.

Again, GW doesn't update rules because of whether or not a codex has a competitive build or not...the Necron codex languishing since the introduction of 5th edition should point that out!

They have recently shown a willingness to update their rules in order to maintain consistency of similar unit types across multiple codexes. The Dark Angels/Black Templars codexes were updated via FAQ to make sure they played the same...this wasn't a competitiveness boost (even though it did do that) because they didn't bother to touch quite a few 'useless' units in those codexes. Instead, they only took the opportunity to make sure that certain things worked the same across each codex.

With SoB, GW is clearly taking the same opportunity to fix the inconsistencies that exist between the new Grey Knight release and the Sisters of Battle.

So IMHO, it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the codex has powerful builds, but everything to do with the fact that it has Inquisition units (like Assassins) that behave entirely different from the exact same unit in the Grey Knight codex.

CT GAMER wrote:
It this is different then any other thread on the internet? 99% of what gets posted here is pointless and non-sensical, but we don't let that stop us most of the time...

I think this is even MORE accurate, tbh.

Kanluwen wrote:
It's like the Lost and the Damned/Storm of Chaos arguments all over again.
They were really never going to be a full army on its own. They were something intended for the campaigns, and in many cases nothing really was going to come out of them

Why is this so complicated for people to understand?

It isn't so much what GW said as what they didn't say: They could have made it clear that this was the intention up-front so that people could have made informed decisions about sinking loads of time and money into a project that according to you they had no plan of allowing long-term.

GW chose not to mention that fact becuase they knew that many people would not buy into the LATD if they did. If they planned to drop them all along as you suggest but did not announce this up front, then that is the problem...

Not too far from a bait and switch to be honest, and the "just play them as guard" mantra that the apologists like to chant doesn't change the facts of what they did...

As an actual Sisters player, I'm not real happy with what I'm hearing about this update so far, but naturally we still don't know the full ruleset so the jury is still out.

The thing that concerns me the most is it seems that Faith may be much less reliable, which would be a massive nerf. Sure we might generate faith all game, but us Sisters players generally are using most of our Faith during a couple turns anyway. I'm curious if Seraphim will be useable under the new Faith system, if they can't reliably pop off their invuln and jump out of combat (they'll likely be getting the less reliable Hit and Run USR) then I'm not sure what I'll use them for. If we can't use Faith in a reliable manner then we'll rank right up there with Zzap guns, Weird Boyz and Truck wrecks. Having abilities we can't plan on is a bad thing...

I'm not sure what the Confessor is for other than henchmen bands. Whatever, we'll see.

Repentia... they are currently so pathetic, I still think they'll need more than a cost reduction and FNP to be worth taking. No transport=no Repentia. Its unlikely I'll be taking an expensive T3 unit lacking a 3+ save on foot. And they can't be held back as a counterattack unit either, steered using rhino chassis, sure, but not held back. Again, we'll see.

On the plus side our costs should come down to the rest of the codexes level.

So far, I'm hearing Faith is less reliable (maybe), and are 'little bonuses' so are less likely to really alter a game. But we're cheaper (which also means more $$$... yay). So it looking like weaker, more numerous, Sisters?

Wait... Craddace is only doing the WD list, right? Not the final, actual, physical, book?

Well, here's hoping he goes IG instead of Nid...

Creeping Dementia wrote:As an actual Sisters player, I'm not real happy with what I'm hearing about this update so far, but naturally we still don't know the full ruleset so the jury is still out.

Exactly, except I'm an optimist, so am very happy.

The thing that concerns me the most is it seems that Faith may be much less reliable, which would be a massive nerf.

I think, and this is conjecture, that it will get more reliable. My theory, that others have posted as well, is that this will be like power dice. Each faithful unit will generate d6. Let's say I have 10 faithful units. I roll at the start of the turn and get 35 dice of faith. Now, I need to roll a 5+ to make any individual power go off.

I think that the way it will work is either:
a) Roll as many of your faith dice as you would like per faith act, subtracting from the total. Add the total of the dice together to get 5+ and success.
a) Roll as many of your faith dice as you would like per faith act, subtracting from the total. Look to see if any of the dice are over a 5+ and success.

Again, speculation. If I am correct, however, this would make faith VERY reliable. In the first case, you could guarantee a faith check by rolling 5 dice. In the second, you can make it a 'sure thing' by rolling lots of dice. It is also possible, but I think unlikely, that each unit has to track their own faith each turn. That would be a pain in the butt and probably tick me off.

I reserve judgement, of course, until we really figure out how the system works and which units get which faith acts.

If we can't use Faith in a reliable manner then we'll rank right up there with Zzap guns, Weird Boyz and Truck wrecks. Having abilities we can't plan on is a bad thing...

That would stink. And sisters have never been able to really plan for faith. (Although some unit sizes could guarantee some acts.) You have always had to have a little ... ugh.... faith in the dice in order to make the army work.

I'm not sure what the Confessor is for other than henchmen bands. Whatever, we'll see.

And to let players who have inquisitors bring them over from last codex. And to let all of us use your Confessor 'Pope Hat' Kyrinov and Uriah 'Crazy Beard' Jacobus models for something.

Repentia... they are currently so pathetic, I still think they'll need more than a cost reduction and FNP to be worth taking. No transport=no Repentia. Its unlikely I'll be taking an expensive T3 unit lacking a 3+ save on foot. And they can't be held back as a counterattack unit either, steered using rhino chassis, sure, but not held back. Again, we'll see.

Price reduction with FNP will probably see me field them again. I just miss redemptionists soooo much.

On the plus side our costs should come down to the rest of the codexes level.

YES!

Also, something that I have been thinking for a few months, but never dared to voice recently. 10 girls in an immolator. I think this is going to happen. It's going to be Rhino (35) with 2 Fire Points, 10 seats or Immolator (65-75) with no Fire Points, 10 seats. /crosses fingers

Either way... Color me excited.