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I like the idea of a new book if it means plastic sisters.. If not then I dont care. Id like an updated book to go with my IG, SM and GKs so I can have an entire imperium force

Any news if the WD-Dex will be stand-alone, or are we going to see some models come out along with the Dex?
It would be Kinda pointless to make the unit point cost less, get rid of allies and =I= (freeing up even more points), but then not have any models available to build new units.

Essentially my 2000 point army becomes a 1250 point Army with no product available to flesh out the available 750 points.

EDIT: My current SoB Army. Under the new WD-Dex the right half of the board goes away.

I wonder if we're going to get a hood. We're losing the better psyker defenses (Ld 10 boardwide hood) with the loss of =][=, we should still have the Sororitas 5+ psyker save though.

I will be very disappointed if even half of this comes to fruition. As stated above, it will effectively dwarf my current force, and really make it improbable that I will get to play them in ard'boyz this year, and subsequently I will shelve them until some real support comes along. A half assed attempt at a codex is not a codex, it is a slap in the face. Is something needed, yes, but making a poor attempt at it is not.


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Creeping Dementia wrote:I wonder if we're going to get a hood. We're losing the better psyker defenses (Ld 10 boardwide hood) with the loss of =][=, we should still have the Sororitas 5+ psyker save though.

Lets not forget the force weapon immunities.

Aye, anyone with a fully mixed Witch Hunter force is going to suffer a bit.

I had Daemons in a Hordes of Chaos list that got bashed a little when WoC changed to accommodate Daemons going solo.

Sadly I am sure the GW response would be, well you have the starting point for a nice Guard or Grey Knights force. Not exactly what folks want to hear when half their army just got slashed.

Enslaviour wrote: A half assed attempt at a codex is not a codex, it is a slap in the face.

What is 'Over Used Internet Phrases for $200, Alex'?

Can we wait for the 'half assed'ery and SITA until we at least see it? By the same token, a new codex with reduced prices to reasonable 5th edition levels, even if it includes guard allies, would probably cut your effective force by 30% anyways. Of all they things I know about this release, even though we're in the rumor stage, I would almost bet hard cash on this: You will have to spend more if you only have exactly the models to form a 2000 point force now and you want to field a 2000 point force after. I think this has been true of most armies with updates.

Also, amusingly enough, Dakka was just posting the hyperbole banner right before I clicked here.

warhammersupernerd wrote: some of there units (Ok, mainly just the cannones) are some of the best value units in the game!

Most assuredly not. She comes with nothing but power armor and is only WS4.

You don't even start with a BP+CCW. And the Rosarius must be paid for as well unlike the invuln saves of every other Imperial army's HQ units.

Just to point out there is alot this WD codex can fix.

Example

GK vindicare assassin 4D6 pen
WH vindicare assassin 3D6 pen

See?

Melissia wrote:

warhammersupernerd wrote: some of there units (Ok, mainly just the cannones) are some of the best value units in the game!

Most assuredly not. She comes with nothing but power armor and is only WS4.

You don't even start with a BP+CCW. And the Rosarius must be paid for as well unlike the invuln saves of every other Imperial army's HQ units.

she isn't overpowered... but she is a great buy with how customizable she is.

frgsinwntr wrote:she isn't overpowered... but she is a great buy with how customizable she is.

I'm sure they'll fix that.

pretre wrote:

Creeping Dementia wrote:As an actual Sisters player, I'm not real happy with what I'm hearing about this update so far, but naturally we still don't know the full ruleset so the jury is still out.

Exactly, except I'm an optimist, so am very happy.

The thing that concerns me the most is it seems that Faith may be much less reliable, which would be a massive nerf.

I think, and this is conjecture, that it will get more reliable. My theory, that others have posted as well, is that this will be like power dice. Each faithful unit will generate d6. Let's say I have 10 faithful units. I roll at the start of the turn and get 35 dice of faith. Now, I need to roll a 5+ to make any individual power go off.

I think that the way it will work is either:
a) Roll as many of your faith dice as you would like per faith act, subtracting from the total. Add the total of the dice together to get 5+ and success.
a) Roll as many of your faith dice as you would like per faith act, subtracting from the total. Look to see if any of the dice are over a 5+ and success.

Again, speculation. If I am correct, however, this would make faith VERY reliable. In the first case, you could guarantee a faith check by rolling 5 dice. In the second, you can make it a 'sure thing' by rolling lots of dice. It is also possible, but I think unlikely, that each unit has to track their own faith each turn. That would be a pain in the butt and probably tick me off.

I reserve judgement, of course, until we really figure out how the system works and which units get which faith acts.

If we can't use Faith in a reliable manner then we'll rank right up there with Zzap guns, Weird Boyz and Truck wrecks. Having abilities we can't plan on is a bad thing...

That would stink. And sisters have never been able to really plan for faith. (Although some unit sizes could guarantee some acts.) You have always had to have a little ... ugh.... faith in the dice in order to make the army work.

I'm not sure what the Confessor is for other than henchmen bands. Whatever, we'll see.

And to let players who have inquisitors bring them over from last codex. And to let all of us use your Confessor 'Pope Hat' Kyrinov and Uriah 'Crazy Beard' Jacobus models for something.

Repentia... they are currently so pathetic, I still think they'll need more than a cost reduction and FNP to be worth taking. No transport=no Repentia. Its unlikely I'll be taking an expensive T3 unit lacking a 3+ save on foot. And they can't be held back as a counterattack unit either, steered using rhino chassis, sure, but not held back. Again, we'll see.

Price reduction with FNP will probably see me field them again. I just miss redemptionists soooo much.

On the plus side our costs should come down to the rest of the codexes level.

YES!

Also, something that I have been thinking for a few months, but never dared to voice recently. 10 girls in an immolator. I think this is going to happen. It's going to be Rhino (35) with 2 Fire Points, 10 seats or Immolator (65-75) with no Fire Points, 10 seats. /crosses fingers

Either way... Color me excited.

This is how I saw faith working, with a power per unit like how the grey knights work with their powers. I really like it if this is the case has it feels 'fluffy to me at least. A nice article from Blood of Kittens but only concern with this is the fact that Sisters will still have a none plastic force which is what I am waiting for before considering starting them.

Marthike wrote:Just to point out there is alot this WD codex can fix.

Example

GK vindicare assassin 4D6 pen
WH vindicare assassin 3D6 pen

See?

Solution:
GK vindicare assassin 4D6 pen
WH vindicare... oh, no more assassins/inquisition for WH.

So yes, it is fixed, by erasing the whole elite slot altogether.

Marthike wrote:Just to point out there is alot this WD codex can fix.

Example

GK vindicare assassin 4D6 pen
WH vindicare assassin 3D6 pen

See?

You missed the part where they addressed assassins in the rumor. So it is more like this:

GK vindicare assassin 4D6 pen
*Line 2 purged by order of the Inquisition*

pretre wrote:

Marthike wrote:Just to point out there is alot this WD codex can fix.

Example

GK vindicare assassin 4D6 pen
WH vindicare assassin 3D6 pen

See?

You missed the part where they addressed assassins in the rumor. So it is more like this:

GK vindicare assassin 4D6 pen
*Line 2 purged by order of the Inquisition*

Will they really get rid off inquisitions from WH?

I would think they fit in quite well since no one ever uses them in a GK army list. If GW actully see what people play maybe they will actully keep the inquisition in WH

As it stands if the Inquistion is removed altogether form the codex, they will have to add something to the codex or for some slots there will only be liek 1 or 2 choices like the HQ slot. There are 13 total units currently sans Inqusition so I woudl expect a few new units to really call itself a codex. Even the lean 5th edition codexes have at least ~20 units without special characters.

HQ: Canoness, Palatine + Priests (do not take up a slot and cannot be mandatory HQ)
Elite: Arco-flagellants, Repentia, Celestians
Troops: Battle Sisters
Fast Attack: Seraphim, Dominions (not really so fast actually)
Heavy Support: Penitent Engines, Retributors, Exorcists, and Immolators (not so heavy really)
Special Characters: St Celestine

If this isn't going to be a slap in the face then GW will have to give the Sisters something new.

Oh, if my opponent kills my army in close combat... since their blood is so pure, does my opponent's unit get to use my faith powers? jk... please don't start that as a rumor. (this was specifically because of pretre's sig )

I hope the dice pool works like that, for faith. With 5 faithful units, roll 5d6 for my pool... then I can use however many dice I want when I want to activate a faith power... it would work out to still be a managed system that would take some skill and luck to pull off correctly.

andrewm9 wrote:As it stands if the Inquistion is removed altogether form the codex, they will have to add something to the codex or for some slots there will only be liek 1 or 2 choices like the HQ slot.

Did you guys read the rumor that started this part of the discussion?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/540/367867.page#2930732

There are 13 total units currently sans Inqusition so I woudl expect a few new units to really call itself a codex. Even the lean 5th edition codexes have at least ~20 units without special characters.

Sisters have always been lean. Inquisition will be gone and replaced with Ecclesiarchy.

HQ: Canoness, Palatine + Priests (do not take up a slot and cannot be mandatory HQ)

Add Confessor which is very much like inquisitors are for GK, just different options.

Elite: Arco-flagellants, Repentia, Celestians

Add henchmen squads (for confessors) and Death Cult Assassins

Troops: Battle Sisters

I'm hoping for militia, but rumors do not say.

Fast Attack: Seraphim, Dominions (not really so fast actually)

No rumors yet.

Heavy Support: Penitent Engines, Retributors, Exorcists, and Immolators (not so heavy really)

No rumors on additional but I'm guessing Immos will get pulled as their own choice.

Special Characters: St Celestine

Sisters have about 5 HQ choices including Special Characters

If this isn't going to be a slap in the face then GW will have to give the Sisters something new.

Or they just have to not slap your face. Then it wouldn't be a slap in the face either.



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Revarien wrote:Oh, if my opponent kills my army in close combat... since their blood is so pure, does my opponent's unit get to use my faith powers? jk... please don't start that as a rumor. (this was specifically because of pretre's sig )

Curse you.

I hope the dice pool works like that, for faith. With 5 faithful units, roll 5d6 for my pool... then I can use however many dice I want when I want to activate a faith power... it would work out to still be a managed system that would take some skill and luck to pull off correctly.

I hope I'm right too. That would be fun and interesting. I'm going to need a bigger die to track my faith points though.

Creeping Dementia wrote:I wonder if we're going to get a hood. We're losing the better psyker defenses (Ld 10 boardwide hood) with the loss of =][=, we should still have the Sororitas 5+ psyker save though.

Too bad most of the dangerous powers aren't used on the enemy, but on yourself. Being unable to stop hammerhands/MoT, or Mephiston, is a problem.

Faith going from an army thing to a unit thing takes a lot of flexibility out of the army. Now you can no longer go 'Ok, I need this unit to hold in melee, and this to not break, and these to shoot well, and that to do damage in melee.' Now it's 'I hope he bothers to shoot/assault my unit that turns invulnerable instead of the units I need to shoot/melee.' Losing Divine Guidance is going to take a big chunk out of the offensive power of any unit that doesn't keep it.

The rules for actually activating acts are sufficiently unclear for discussion to be pretty useless.

The Grog wrote:Faith going from an army thing to a unit thing takes a lot of flexibility out of the army.

Re-read the rumor. Units generate faith into the pool, which the army uses.

Now you can no longer go 'Ok, I need this unit to hold in melee, and this to not break, and these to shoot well, and that to do damage in melee.' Now it's 'I hope he bothers to shoot/assault my unit that turns invulnerable instead of the units I need to shoot/melee.' Losing Divine Guidance is going to take a big chunk out of the offensive power of any unit that doesn't keep it.

You have no way of knowing who gets what. For all you know, everyone gets Divine Guidance plus one other power. (like GK Force + one power for each squad) or everyone gets SotM plus one other power. Save the OH NOES for when we get more info. Even the rumor says specifically that we do not know.

frgsinwntr wrote:

Melissia wrote:

warhammersupernerd wrote: some of there units (Ok, mainly just the cannones) are some of the best value units in the game!

Most assuredly not. She comes with nothing but power armor and is only WS4.

You don't even start with a BP+CCW. And the Rosarius must be paid for as well unlike the invuln saves of every other Imperial army's HQ units.

she isn't overpowered... but she is a great buy with how customizable she is.

But by far NOT the best value in the game...

That'd probably be the company command squad.


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Marthike wrote:Will they really get rid off inquisitions from WH?

i hope so. I want Sisters stuff. Give the =][= their own book.

It's a bit early, but I'm going to call it when it comes to faith points. Units will be able to burn multiple faith dice on a single roll.

I'm going to use a sisters army with 8 faith generating units as an example (just call it 2 HQ, 2 elites, 4 troops)

Fist off let's look at the # of faith points generated per turn. 1D6 per unit may seem really random at first, but it's not. 1D6 is a very random # with 1 hardly being any faith points and 6 being more than the average unit needs. That being said faith points won't be very random at all because 8D6 from 8 units will consistently produce approximately 27 faith points per turn give or take 8 points resulting in 35 being a feast and 19 being a famine. Rolls such as 8 or 64 are statistically possible, but highly improbable (1,679,616 to 1 odds to be exact). Faith generated per turn will be very steady and consistent as long as there are a lot of faith producing units.

Now that we've established that 8 faith generating units will generate a somewhat reliable average of 3.5 faith points how the hell are they going to burn 3.5 faith dice per turn if they can only use 1 faith die per test? How is having 8 units make 27 faith tests per tun making faith tests "more streamlined"? 27 faith tests per turn would be completely silly and devoid of any skill. SoB players would just activate 1 faith die every chance they get, and hope they can actually burn all their faith points per turn. In short they need to be able to burn more than 1 die per test to use up all those faith points.

My guess is that squad upgrades, HQ units, wargear such as imagifers, and maybe casualties (say being below half strength as a squad) would allow squads to burn additional dice on a single test. Once squads can burn more than 1 die per test a 5+ faith check becomes far less unreliable.

1D6=33.3% chance of success
2D6=55.5% chance of success
3D6=70.4% chance of success
4D6=80.25% chance of success
5D6=86.8% chance of success
6D6=91.3 chance of success

Diminishing returns really starts to kick in at 4D6, so if sisters can burn 3 faith points for 3 dice at a chance to succeed faith would be reliable.

schadenfreude wrote:It's a bit early, but I'm going to call it when it comes to faith points. Units will be able to burn multiple faith dice on a single roll.

I agree and thanks for the mathhammer. I REALLY think that this could be a cool mechanic with a lot of interesting bits and bobs for us to track. Plus I love the idea of saying "No, I NEED to get off this faith check. I'm throwing 9 dice at it."

schadenfreude wrote:It's a bit early, but I'm going to call it when it comes to faith points. Units will be able to burn multiple faith dice on a single roll.

I'm going to use a sisters army with 8 faith generating units as an example (just call it 2 HQ, 2 elites, 4 troops)

Fist off let's look at the # of faith points generated per turn. 1D6 per unit may seem really random at first, but it's not. 1D6 is a very random # with 1 hardly being any faith points and 6 being more than the average unit needs. That being said faith points won't be very random at all because 8D6 from 8 units will consistently produce approximately 27 faith points per turn give or take 8 points resulting in 35 being a feast and 19 being a famine. Rolls such as 8 or 64 are statistically possible, but highly improbable (1,679,616 to 1 odds to be exact). Faith generated per turn will be very steady and consistent as long as there are a lot of faith producing units.

Now that we've established that 8 faith generating units will generate a somewhat reliable average of 3.5 faith points how the hell are they going to burn 3.5 faith dice per turn if they can only use 1 faith die per test? How is having 8 units make 27 faith tests per tun making faith tests "more streamlined"? 27 faith tests per turn would be completely silly and devoid of any skill. SoB players would just activate 1 faith die every chance they get, and hope they can actually burn all their faith points per turn. In short they need to be able to burn more than 1 die per test to use up all those faith points.

My guess is that squad upgrades, HQ units, wargear such as imagifers, and maybe casualties (say being below half strength as a squad) would allow squads to burn additional dice on a single test. Once squads can burn more than 1 die per test a 5+ faith check becomes far less unreliable.

1D6=33.3% chance of success
2D6=55.5% chance of success
3D6=70.4% chance of success
4D6=80.25% chance of success
5D6=86.8% chance of success
6D6=91.3 chance of success

Diminishing returns really starts to kick in at 4D6, so if sisters can burn 3 faith points for 3 dice at a chance to succeed faith would be reliable.

That is awesome and looks especially helpful!

pretre wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:It's a bit early, but I'm going to call it when it comes to faith points. Units will be able to burn multiple faith dice on a single roll.

I agree and thanks for the mathhammer. I REALLY think that this could be a cool mechanic with a lot of interesting bits and bobs for us to track. Plus I love the idea of saying "No, I NEED to get off this faith check. I'm throwing 9 dice at it."

Such as: My Repentia actually got 6 in a squad to slam into those GK Termies with initiative 6 forceweapons: burn faith like crazy and make sure all those eviscerators land! Suddenly you have one hell of a turn around at a key point... yeah, now THAT could be a hell of a lot of fun. IMO that is how I see faith currently, but with less control (e.g. they can be game swingers)

If this is a simple stop gap between now and a real codex I'm fine. When the stop gap for Chaos Warriors came out it was with the specific intention of getting players by until the actual book was released. With the new GW policy of ultimate secrecy we have no way of really knowing if this is what we are stuck with. If this is it the army is pretty much dead since you can't move models without a book on the shelves.

Having said that the changes seem ok but I agree Sisters need some way of getting tanks across without being wiped off by overwhelming fire so I hope something like that is prevalent. FnP on the Repentia is a good idea but without a transport they need something to help them get to the enemy so it would be nice if they can get some kind of outflank ability on top of what they have. The 6++ is totally meaningless and I hope it isn't factored into their point cost.

I think the Faith point calculations earlier are wrong. Rolling a 5+ on two dice is an 83% chance which is pretty dependable. I agree with the idea that you can roll as many dice as you are willing to spend faith points on an ability to get that 5+. With a simpler system I'll have less problems with people calling me a cheater since I "just needed to roll under the squad size a minute ago!!"

Ixquic wrote:I think the Faith point calculations earlier are wrong. Rolling a 5+ on two dice is an 83% chance which is pretty dependable.

I think you're talking about adding the two dice; the calcs were for getting a 5+ on any of the dice.

Brother SRM wrote:

kenzosan wrote:so its the red thirst for ba but it actually has a down side. joy of joys

You know that was a really obvious joke, right?

You know that wasn't a joke right? Its a simile with sarcasm thown in at the end.

The Grog wrote:

Creeping Dementia wrote:I wonder if we're going to get a hood. We're losing the better psyker defenses (Ld 10 boardwide hood) with the loss of =][=, we should still have the Sororitas 5+ psyker save though.

Too bad most of the dangerous powers aren't used on the enemy, but on yourself. Being unable to stop hammerhands/MoT, or Mephiston, is a problem.

Faith going from an army thing to a unit thing takes a lot of flexibility out of the army. Now you can no longer go 'Ok, I need this unit to hold in melee, and this to not break, and these to shoot well, and that to do damage in melee.' Now it's 'I hope he bothers to shoot/assault my unit that turns invulnerable instead of the units I need to shoot/melee.' Losing Divine Guidance is going to take a big chunk out of the offensive power of any unit that doesn't keep it.

The rules for actually activating acts are sufficiently unclear for discussion to be pretty useless.

No GK get their hammerhand

I played a Sister of battle player and the rule says only power directed at the sisters get to role the dice.

Hammerhand if not an attack towards the sisters so they can't neutralise it.

pretre wrote:

Ixquic wrote:I think the Faith point calculations earlier are wrong. Rolling a 5+ on two dice is an 83% chance which is pretty dependable.

I think you're talking about adding the two dice; the calcs were for getting a 5+ on any of the dice.

Gotcha.

I guess that depends on how many faith points you can end up generating a turn since the chances of rolling an natural 5 or 6 on dice is lower than simply a 5+. The powers need to be semi reliable and not something you cross your fingers and hope for the coin flip to go your way but if you can reliably throw 4+ dice at the ones you really want it shouldn't be a problem.

Ixquic wrote:
I guess that depends on how many faith points you can end up generating a turn since the chances of rolling an natural 5 or 6 on dice is lower than simply a 5+. The powers need to be semi reliable and not something you cross your fingers and hope for the coin flip to go your way but if you can reliably throw 4+ dice at the ones you really want it shouldn't be a problem.

Well, assuming my current list with just sisters: Canoness, 2xCelestians, 4xSisters, Seraphim and Exorcist. That's 8 faith generators right there. so between 8 and 48 points. Average 27.5. You can throw 4 dice at 7 things a turn. That's WAY more faith than I put out right now. (That list would have 9 faith points total right now.) Even if the faith isn't pooled, that's at least 1 act a turn per unit. Pretty crazy.