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Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Levittown, NY

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanguinary
better than pulse rifles?
AF


Hell yes. Statistically Marines with Bolters cause an identical number of wounds against T4 as FW wth Pulse Rifles. Against T3 Marines with Bolters pull ahead, and only against T5 and T6 does the Pulse Rifle perform better. Since the ratio of T4&T3 in the game is much higher than t6+, the Bolter is supierior. You're also looking at the weapon seperated from the troops. Your Marines can take a flamer and melta and vastly improve their flexibility, You have T4 with 3+ saves and ld 9 or higher.

Take some Tau who's *only* option is pulse rifles or pulse carbines, T3, 4+ saves, and ld 7 and you'll be crying to go back to your 'crappy' Tac marines with their 'crappy' bolters

40K: The game where bringing a knife to a gun fight means you win.

2000 Orks
1500 Tau 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought






As a chaos player I love my bolters.

A 10 man vanilla CSM squad with 2 melta guns is everything tac marines wish they could be. Bolt Pistol+CCW+Boltgun with 2 melta guns. They tend to get overshadowed by PM, but when it comes down to it vanilla CSM are every bit as solid of a troops choice. PM have T5 and FNP, but the vanilla are 2/3 the cost so they get 50% more CC attacks and 50% more bolter fire for the same cost. Chaos marines are a far better jack of all trades unit than tac marines. Codex marines are a very competitive army, but tac marines have never been their strong point.

Simple massed bolt guns are no joke to a horde army when lash pulls units out of cover. Against genestealers all that is needed is a single havoc missile launcher from a rhino against clumped genestealers followed by some bolt gun fire and they die in droves. Obliterators can then stay focused on gunning down MC.

Chaos players become so obsessed with cult troops people easily overlook that the basic chaos marine is one of the best troops choices in the game.

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Burnley, England

I do like bolters they are a decent basic weapon, But i can see why folks dont like em.

when used by scouts there a lot more usefull than on marines, the infiltrate rule gives them an advantage of shredding the lesser units that tend to be the "meat sheild" at the front of most armies, if any survive after that then they are just as usefull against the harder stuff as long as they are supported by sniper teams and tacti and devastator squads.

if you look at the other armies basic units weapons the bolter is one of the best you can use.

actually the only weapon i can think of that the space marine army can use is the shotgun........i mean come on please wats the point of them at all.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





@schadenfreude:
Up until Space Puppies and Twilight Marines came out .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/07/23 16:42:34


This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine





So... AbaddonFidelis argues with most of everyone. Then ignores the people who don't feel like properly debating with him and his silly debates... like oh, my 18 points have this extra 50 points compared to your 16 points!

Wonderful!

As to the actual topic:

I like them, mostly since I have to use them. I could take them, or BS 3 scouts, so naturally, I am going to stick with the tactical marines.

The other races have better options for them, like BP & CCW, or AP 3 bolters. Some of them are cheaper too so be it, I play space marines, and I like them.
   
Made in us
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





behind you!

Nugz
True


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sanct
They arent more cost effective in *all* situations. just in *most* situations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nugz
you wrote:
They achieve game balance via "the big picture", ie: Codices. EX: Tac Marines suck, but Vanilla Marines get cheap Assault Terminators, so it's "balanced". Unfortunately, this leads to most Codices having a very small number of competitive builds. Better points management and rules balance would allow for more competitive builds by all Codices at all points levels: things would just scale better. As it is, you see only the newest Codices producing multiple distinct competitive builds.

I agree completely. I wish they would take more care about balancing the units. Other companies would call that R&D
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroot
I'm skeptical that a str 5 ap 5 30" gun would be in some cases inferior to a str 4 ap 5 24" gun. can you provide some instances of where the 2nd is better?
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Schaden
against a horde out of cover yes bolters are strong. horde players know this however...... yes the demon prince can get them out of cover. I'd rather flame them if at all possible. now someone will say "well you cant have flame throwers all the time you just have to make do." yes. I got that. my point is that the more flamer/melta/plasma vs bolters you can take the better. upgrade everything. minimize bolters.

chaos tac marines are I agree a much better buy than loyalist tac marines. but neither of them are, imo, worthwhile. the specialization of the cultists is what makes them stronger, to me. they know what they're there to do. getting them to do it becomes a tactical challenge, not a problem with the build. by comparison tac marines will never rock. the capability isnt in their stat line.
AF

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/07/23 19:09:12


   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





@AF:
Kroot
I'm skeptical that a str 5 ap 5 30" gun would be in some cases inferior to a str 4 ap 5 24" gun. can you provide some instances of where the 2nd is better?


It is inferior for indirect reasons.
To get that gun, you sacrifice Infiltrating on kroot (a big deal).
In addition they are not that durable and cost quite alot compared to the cheap-throw aways they have around them.

This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
 
   
Made in us
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





behind you!

Sanct
Im just talking about the gun forget the guy whose carrying it.

   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Levittown, NY

the 30" range on the FW weapon is a red herring, FW are not sturdy enough to survive outside of their transports. in nearly all circumstances, the FW will be moving in transports and only disembark to lay down volume of fire within 12". Since their Transports do not have firing ports, by and large the effective range of the Pulse Rifle is rapid fire range, 12". The 30" range is a foot note.

Now if you have a Space Marine a Pulse Rifle, of course it's better, that's stupid. But the reason it's better is because you gave it to a BS 4 T4 3+ model. What would you have to give Tau then? A Str 6 Ap5 rifle? We'd be right back here with you complaining about how the pulse rifle sucks because the Tau weapon is better. The bolter is a flexible sturdy weapon for resilient troops. It is very servicable against the common infantry of other armies (it's intended targets) and very effective thanks to the base BS 4 of Marines.

You're complaining about the base weapon of the army, and ignoring the awesome that makes up the rest of the marine basic troop: Flexible, tough, ATSKNF, good leadership, etc. You are following the classic 'Strain out a gnat but swallow a camel' syndrome.

It seems to come down to you feel like every time you throw dice at a unit it should just evaporate. That's not even fun, that's just 'ha ha my gunz are bigger than ur gunz n I won the roll off!!!111!!1'

Maybe you should be playing IG :p

40K: The game where bringing a knife to a gun fight means you win.

2000 Orks
1500 Tau 
   
Made in ca
Infiltrating Broodlord






Sanctjud wrote:@schadenfreude:
Up until Space Puppies and Twilight Marines came out .


Pretty much. A year ago today the standard CSM was the best troop choice in the game in my opinion, and now I won't even bother using them (or any other CSM), simply because if you run into Wolves or Vamps youll get stomped into the ground in combat.

I really hope they come out with a Legions book...

Tyranids
Chaos Space Marines

 
   
Made in us
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





behind you!

"Now if you have a Space Marine a Pulse Rifle, of course it's better."
exactly

"thats stupid"
well you said it.

I was just talking about the guns, not the models carrying it. that's not as counter intuitive as you might think. kroot shapers can tape pulse rifles guard commisars can take bolters sm and guardsmen can both take plasma weapons etc. the characteristics of the weapon are important by themselves.

Now Kroot dont misunderstand me. my point is this... and only this...and this is like the 10th time Ive said this on this thread....so I hope your reading...IF YOU GET A CHANCE TO UPGRADE A BOLTER YOU SHOULD DO IT. read that again if you need to before replying. read it as many times as you need to. but please, for the love of christ, READ IT.

AF

   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

AbaddonFidelis wrote:1. rapid fire prevents you from charging, meaning you can't get the most out of your marines.
2. even massive quantities of bolters don't consistently kill the most threatening things in the game: thunderwolves plague marines blood angels w/sanguinary priests blood crushers etc. About a year ago I dumped a *company* worth of rapid firing bolters into 10 fortuned wraith lord. did not kill 1. not even 1. just the other week I pulled out an army that was just a ton of chaos space marines with bolters and went up against a space wolf army loaded up with thunder wolves. I rapid fired a squad with 6 plasmaguns 6 flame throwers and 28 bolters. Because of wound allocation not even one died.
3. Bolters don't handle masses of poor infantry very well either, because it's not hard to keep them in cover and use their 4+ save to keep the ap 5 from hurting too much.
4. They cant hurt tanks.

So basically plasma weapons are better for killing heavy infantry and monsters, flame throwers for killing masses of light infantry, and melta weapons for killing tanks.
AF
Its late to join the conversation, but here are my thoughts to the OP

Bolters are a tool, to be used in the arsenal of the SM army. A squad with bolters can deliver multiple mid-low STR shots with good accuracy. When is that more useful than plasma cannons, las-cannons, assault troops? Let us consider that your using 2 TAC squads with bolters, a rhino with 2 storm bolters each. Move the rhino up 6", and then hop out both squads of marines. Put the rhinos ass to ass so their AV is 11 all around, and shoot their storm bolters in addition to the marines bolters. Thats 48 bolter shots, hitting on a 3+.

Here are some examples of when that would own....
1) Seer Counsel. Even with fortune, 22 wounds from bolters would put a cramp in their style.
2) Squads caught in the open. That volume of shots would reduce a 30 man ork horde by over half on average.
3) Zoenthrope. The high save and low toughness make this an ideal candidate for bolter fire.
4) TH/SS termies. 16 wounds being dropped on the squad means 2-3 of them will die to shooting. At 40 points a model that gets pricy to lose.

They are not a tool for every situation, but in the right one they can be very effective.
(Note, yes, normally you take special/heavy weapons in tac squads. The lack of them was put in for examples sake)
   
Made in ca
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Ontario

Here is just something to throw in,
I shot a full squad of bolters (with one flamer, for a few extra hits), rapid fire, and since I had a heavy weapon, I had to use a bolt pistol, and the sergeant had a bolt pistol too.
Most hit, most wound, I just killed 10 orks and wounded the nob.
Don't you tell me they aren't effective, cuz they do me wonders. Sometimes, they do even better than my special weapons.

I have 2000 points of , called the Crimson Leaves.
I will soon be starting WoC, devoted to
I have 500 points of , in blueberry and ice cream (light grey and light blue) flavour. From the fictional world Darkheim.
DarkHound wrote:Stop it you. Core has changed. It's no longer about nations, ideologies or ethnicity. It's an endless series of proxy battles, fought by mercenaries and machines. Core, and its consumption of life, has become a well-oiled machine. Core has changed. ID tagged soldiers carry ID tagged weapons, use ID tagged gear. Nanomachines inside their bodies enhance and regulate their abilities. Genetic control. Information control. Emotion control. Battlefield control. Everything is monitored, and kept under control. Core has changed. The age of deterrence has become the age of control. All in the name of averting catastrophe from weapons of mass destruction. And he who controls the battlefield, controls history. Core has changed. When the battlefield is under total control, war... becomes routine.

 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





I was just talking about the guns, not the models carrying it. that's not as counter intuitive as you might think. kroot shapers can tape pulse rifles guard commisars can take bolters sm and guardsmen can both take plasma weapons etc. the characteristics of the weapon are important by themselves.


And you tell me I nitpick...

The wielder is as important as the weapon stats IMO. Else it wouldn't be realistic as the gun does need a firer.

This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought






Night Lords wrote:
Sanctjud wrote:@schadenfreude:
Up until Space Puppies and Twilight Marines came out .


Pretty much. A year ago today the standard CSM was the best troop choice in the game in my opinion, and now I won't even bother using them (or any other CSM), simply because if you run into Wolves or Vamps youll get stomped into the ground in combat.

I really hope they come out with a Legions book...


Chaos troops are still better than grey hunters or BA assault marines.

What makes puppies great is their ultra cheap ML long fangs and their HQ. On their own grey hunters are not more impressive than chaos troops.

What makes BA great is their priests (elites or HQ if in honor guard) and fast vehicles. On their own without FNP BA assault marines are not more impressive than chaos troops.

Now you can argue that the overall army codex of vampires and werewolves is better than chaos, but as far as stand alone troops choices go chaos still has it made.

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
Made in us
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle




New York



I can't believe you're trying to compare weapons without also talking about the guy shooting them. You want to know what the difference between a bolter sitting on a table and a pulse rifle sitting on a table are?

The color and shape , as without a gunner neither has the ability to kill ANYTHING.

As to your main point...
Yes I would like to upgrade my bolters to a flamer/meltagun/plasma/whatever . Let me restate that. I would like to UPGRADE my bolters. All of the weapons you are proposing to take in the bolter's stead is an UPGRADE.

So what you have done this whole thread is comment on how a weapons upgrade supersedes it's basic form.

Anyone here ever play Pokemon? Of course you have.

Now, trivia question: Is Charmander or Charizard better? Naturally Charizard is better, as he is the UPGRADED form of Charmander. Does this mean Charmander sucks? No. Charmander is perfectly fine and dandy as long as you don't attack stuff that you're supposed to attack with Charizard. Charizard is also harder to get as it takes a LOT of time to upgrade him.

Naturally an upgrade beats its lesser form, but for a lesser form, a bolters not half bad. Shoots 24" and improves inside of 12", ignores some armor saves, wounds mostly on 3+ or 4+, and (since we can't discount the gunner as determined above) always hits on a 3+. And you get to bring a lot more bolters than specials. To me, this is acceptable.

Now for a note on "theoryhammer" and "mathammer".

What on god's green earth possessed you all to bring only bolters with your tacs, and only tacs with your army in your example? 40k is all about the machine that is your army working together to accomplish a goal. If you want to compare units straight up you absolutely HAVE to take the results with a grain or two of salt.

When would I ever have a single tac marine shooting at three guardsmen, in the open? Answer: never, never, NEVER EVER. My tacs roll ten man strong with a rocket and flamer and at least another ~800 pts of army floating around. Same thing applies to the guardsmen.

This game is so complicated it would take a supercomputer to effectively analyze the way you guys are trying to do.

Besides, I don't know about you guys, but I play WARHAMMER, and DON'T TELL ME THE ODDS!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/07/23 23:33:44


Salamanders 1885 pts  
   
Made in us
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





behind you!

JSK
you could have killed the whole squad with flame throwers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yes sanct the gun needs a firer


Automatically Appended Next Post:
schaden
within the context of the blood angels codex though dont you think the assault marine is stronger than the csm within the context of the chaos codex? I think that's got to be taken into account when comparing the two units, over and above looking at point cost weapon options stat line.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Freelancer
well you're about the 10th guy whose said the same thing so I'm going to tell you the same thing I told them.

My point is this and only this: if you get a chance to upgrade a bolter you should do it. you should minimize the ratio of special weapons to bolters in your army.

Emperors teeth I get tired of saying that.
AF

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/07/24 00:13:22


   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker





CT

Abaddon you are one dense player. Bolters arent made to kill the elites of the enemy, or endless swarms of greenskins, its made to kill units like tau fire warriors or eldar guardians! If you want to kill elite units, look to the melta gun or plasma, to kill swarms, flamer or heavy bolter! Here is what Ill say to you: EACH WEAPON HAS ITS OWN PLACE IN YOU ARMY! IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT THE BASIC BOLTERS IS, THEN TRY TO FIND OUT!

Camboyaz
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Blue Crosses
IOM Tau Cult
104th Tank Regiment 
   
Made in us
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle




New York

Ok, look Abaddon:
No one here is gonna argue with you that the upgraded weapons aren't better than the bolter because it's true that they are better, hence the upgrade bit. And I'm sure people understand why minimizing the number of bolters in your squads is what your going for. What people here have a problem with is your inaccurate belief that the bolter itself is so subpar that all efforts to eliminate it must be made, which it isn't true for the many reasons already posted.

So stop posting "if you get a chance to upgrade a bolter you should do it. you should minimize the ratio of special weapons to bolters in your army." , we've countered it, and repeting the same action again and again and expecting different results is the definetion of insanity.

I get the impression from you that standard, even one as high as the bolter, isn't good enough for you. The type of person who would never ever consider guardians if dire avengers are an option for example. Fine. Be that way. Just know that the bolter has its place in 40k, and a high place too, and any crusade undertaken to get people to stop using and liking it, will ultimately fall flat.

Salamanders 1885 pts  
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Mira Mesa

Freelancer48 wrote:Ok, look Abaddon:
No one here is gonna argue with you that the upgraded weapons aren't better than the bolter because it's true that they are better, hence the upgrade bit. And I'm sure people understand why minimizing the number of bolters in your squads is what your going for. What people here have a problem with is your inaccurate belief that the bolter itself is so subpar that all efforts to eliminate it must be made, which it isn't true for the many reasons already posted.

So stop posting "if you get a chance to upgrade a bolter you should do it. you should minimize the ratio of special weapons to bolters in your army." , we've countered it, and repeting the same action again and again and expecting different results is the definetion of insanity.

I get the impression from you that standard, even one as high as the bolter, isn't good enough for you. The type of person who would never ever consider guardians if dire avengers are an option for example. Fine. Be that way. Just know that the bolter has its place in 40k, and a high place too, and any crusade undertaken to get people to stop using and liking it, will ultimately fall flat.
Rare is it that a post count could be so low, yet his words so true.

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Made in au
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In your squads, doing the chainsword tango

AbaddonFidelis wrote:starbomber
stop being dense.
3 guardsmen shoot 3 times a piece vs 1 marine shooting twice. Would you rather shoot 9 times 4+/5+/3+ or twice 3+/4+/3+?
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jilallah
you said: "bolters are not imo what they should be. Nor is the cover system."

I agree. I don't understand the need for ridicule/hostility when you agree with someone.
AF


I don't think you fully understand- whilst I agree the cover system needs works, and bolters imo could be upped a bit- but your whining is ridiculous and sometimes hypocritical in nature. Why do you feel the need to be hostile and call people dense? Feel free to call this kettle black, because it's quite aware of it- look in the mirror first, pot

Oh, not to mention the whole "My basic infantryman's gun doesn't hurt tanks waaaah" was a peice of comedy gold

Sanctjud wrote:
AbaddonFidelis wrote:Wrex....
the problem with ok units is the opportunity cost, not the unit itself. for instance a chaos tactical marine is a bad unit bc for 8 points more he could have been a plague marine, who for 23 points is a much better buy than the tac marine at 15.

AF


Whoa, whoa, whoa. We need to start a new topic on this if that is how you really feel about CSMs.
Chaos Space Marines (as they are not tactical marines) are the best buys of their time. Certainly codex creep skews things, but within their own codex, they are the cost effective unit choice.


So the reason i feel need for hostility is when people say dumb things like CSM's are bad. I've played plenty of games where those extra bolters would have been just enough to clear objectives- the downside of plague marines. I've played plenty of games too where FNP or having to roll 1-2 less wounds would have kept that squad on the point- the downside of Chaos marines. It's a 15 point space marine with LD 10! can take TWO special weapons in a squad! That can take a icon for DS'ing all kinds of shenanigans/buffing up the squad! that has 2 CCW's base! Anyone who says they are bad really is being stupid or trolling. Either try and absorb what people are telling you, in the case of you are stupid, or if you are trolling, then i find it odd that you could be bothered to do it and get something out of it, so if you are trolling, just a quick honest question- are your parents brother and sister, or are they cousins?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
Freelancer
well you're about the 10th guy whose said the same thing so I'm going to tell you the same thing I told them.

My point is this and only this: if you get a chance to upgrade a bolter you should do it. you should minimize the ratio of special weapons to bolters in your army.

Emperors teeth I get tired of saying that.
AF


My point is this and only this- if you think people aren't upgrading bolters, you are an idiot. Only a someone utterly new to the game would not take special and heavy weapons on their tac squads. We aren't saying just take a horde of bolters- We aren't saying special weapons aren't good. We're saying that for the guns that hang around and protect the special/heavy weapons, bolters are ok, in fact pretty ok.

Ailaros wrote:
Oh, and...
Jihallah wrote:No, in a perfect world, your troops shoot demolisher shells out of a 72" range assault 6 gun.

They would also cause pinning


crap bro we forgot 2xd6 penetration and rending!

- feel the need to edit and point something out- I'm pretty sure I've called Ailros an idiot, and he's responded in kind before. Ailaros often says something alot of people find odd or silly, but I value him since his ideas make me think quite often.

However, at no point has he make a point about why bolters are bad where the point was "they cant hurt tanks"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/07/24 01:42:34


   
Made in us
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New York

Rare is it that a post count could be so low, yet his words so true.


Why thank you, Darkhound, I aim to please.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/07/24 01:43:52


Salamanders 1885 pts  
   
Made in ca
Infiltrating Broodlord






schadenfreude wrote:
Night Lords wrote:
Sanctjud wrote:@schadenfreude:
Up until Space Puppies and Twilight Marines came out .


Pretty much. A year ago today the standard CSM was the best troop choice in the game in my opinion, and now I won't even bother using them (or any other CSM), simply because if you run into Wolves or Vamps youll get stomped into the ground in combat.

I really hope they come out with a Legions book...


Chaos troops are still better than grey hunters or BA assault marines.

What makes puppies great is their ultra cheap ML long fangs and their HQ. On their own grey hunters are not more impressive than chaos troops.

What makes BA great is their priests (elites or HQ if in honor guard) and fast vehicles. On their own without FNP BA assault marines are not more impressive than chaos troops.

Now you can argue that the overall army codex of vampires and werewolves is better than chaos, but as far as stand alone troops choices go chaos still has it made.


Grey Hunters have everything CSM have except they also have counter attack, acute senses, 5 point meltas, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard and ATSKNF, but only 1 powerfist attack and ld8.

Blood Angel Priests are a standard choice and are independent characters that run with these squads...so I dont see why they shouldnt be accounted for. CSMs fighting BAs in CC are going to get destroyed, which was the point of my post.

Tyranids
Chaos Space Marines

 
   
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behind you!

camboyz
w/e

Freelancer
you wrote:
"No one here is gonna argue with you that the upgraded weapons aren't better than the bolter because it's true that they are better"
well we agree about that much.

you wrote:
So stop posting "if you get a chance to upgrade a bolter you should do it. you should minimize the ratio of special weapons to bolters in your army." , we've countered it, and repeting the same action again and again and expecting different results is the definetion of insanity."

I'm not really expecting anything except to wile away some spare time talking about a hobby I love. Every once in a while I hear a good idea. If someone's a complete waste of time I ignore them. pretty rational from where I sit. w/e

yes I would never take guardians if dire avengers were available. exactly.
AF

Jil
I dont want to get off topic about plague marines vs csm. if you really want to have that conversation start a thread. or just look at the ard boyz results. w/e.

anyway you're pretty much a slow so ignore. mb you and some of the other people I'm ignoring can get together and have an "I hate AF" party. I'll never know
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nightlords
I agree 100%

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/07/24 02:15:25


   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Mira Mesa

Hey Jihallah, welcome to the club! Now we never have to worry about him responding to our threads. At this rate he'll have all of Dakka ignored within a month.

EDIT: Except Night Lords.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/07/24 02:16:06


Coordinator for San Diego At Ease Games' Crusade League. Full 9 week mission packets and league rules available: Lon'dan System Campaign.
Jihallah Sanctjud Loricatus Aurora Shep Gwar! labmouse42 DogOfWar Lycaeus Wrex GoDz BuZzSaW Ailaros LunaHound s1gns alarmingrick Black Blow Fly Dashofpepper Wrexasaur willydstyle 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





But Night Lords makes sense...so he's cool..
Nothing, nothing, just randomly talking.

Yes, these are chores too,

This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
 
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




In your squads, doing the chainsword tango

I agree with Nightlords too- but my plague marines don't last much longer either! CSM IMO are still a solid choice. If we are trying to really tune an army into as competitive as possible is a different story, but for most games CSM perform well.


To be frank, I'm more annoy AF didn't answer my question about his parents... It was just an honest question

Also his calling of people "slow" whilst being repeatably unable to spell my handle is pretty hilarious He's gotten it right once lol. If you want a laugh and go through the guys posts- the image of a fat neckbearded antisocial twerp slowly starts to form in the mind, take shape, and then almost solidify

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/07/24 02:38:44


   
Made in us
Hauptmann




Diligently behind a rifle...

Are you really complaining about Bolters? Really? C'mon man! Take the Basic weapon of your army and compare it to:

Shuriken Catapult: S4 AP5 Assault 2 12"
Shoota: S4 AP6 Assault 2 18"
Lasgun: S3 AP- Rapid Fire 24"
Pulse Rifle: S5 AP5 Rapid Fire 30"
Devourer: S6(max) AP- Assault2X 18"
Splinter Rifle: S3 AP5 Rapid Fire 24"
Gauss Flayer: S4 AP5 Rapid Fire 24" Gauss

The only standard weapon that is better is the Pulse Rifle, and it goes with a model that is WS2 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I2 A1 Ld7 Sv+4

I would love to be able to take Bolters, but only 5 models of mine can!

This is why your complaints are falling on deaf ears, the Bolter is arguably the best bang (horrendous pun!) for your buck Standard Armament in the game.

Be glad that's your BASE FREAKING WEAPON!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/07/24 02:51:39


Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away

1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action

"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."

"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"

Res Ipsa Loquitor 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Stormrider wrote:Are you really complaining about Bolters? Really? C'mon man! Take the Basic weapon of your army and compare it to:





Honestly I'd rather have Tactical Boyz w/ Shootaz than Bolters. Just sayin'

Tier 1 is the new Tactical.

My IDF-Themed Guard Army P&M Blog:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/355940.page 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine





"Complete waste of time" was a knee slapper.

The irony is palpable from him...

It irks me when people hand out bad advice, i'm waiting until zachar gets back on to get my nasty-gram.

We should have a poll instead, and no debating. Since in Ailaros-ian form, he's not going to give up, and he is going to skew things into his favor... or just not answer questions.

Ever since Ailaros came, all the debates have been impossible, first him, now this "AF" character.

IS
(Because this makes me cooler... )
   
 
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