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Stormrider
no...no I'm not complaining about bolters.... I'm suggesting that if you get a chance to upgrade them to assault weapons you should... and you should try to take as few of them as possible. that's all.
AF

Damned space wolves/blood angels/chaos marines getting all the good weapon loadouts.

As Stormrider said, they're the best gun that we can get aside from tau... who have less BS, and fold under any close combat unit.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Stormrider wrote:Are you really complaining about Bolters? Really? C'mon man! Take the Basic weapon of your army and compare it to:

Honestly I'd rather have Tactical Boyz w/ Shootaz than Bolters. Just sayin'

I would too, but then the competitive balance of the game would be way off. Hence why Orks are God awful shots, They need a lot to kill a little.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Damned space wolves/blood angels/chaos marines getting all the good weapon loadouts.

As Stormrider said, they're the best gun that we can get aside from tau... who have less BS, and fold under any close combat unit.

"Good" is relative. In the way that I usually use Bolter-armed Marines, I'd rather they be S4 AP6 Assault 2 18" range Shootaz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stormrider wrote:

I would too, but then the competitive balance of the game would be way off. Hence why Orks are God awful shots, They need a lot to kill a little.

This is true though Orks usually want to get into melee anyway even with Shoota Boyz. So basically it's like icing on the cake you know.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Stormrider
no...no I'm not complaining about bolters.... I'm suggesting that if you get a chance to upgrade them to assault weapons you should... and you should try to take as few of them as possible. that's all.
AF

That's fair, but do you realize how many threads there would be saying: "Tac marines shouldn't be able to take that many nice toys!" ? Hell them taking Two special weapons or a special and a heavy is pretty damn nice, plus combat squads, plus ATSKNF, Plus Ld8, 3+ Sv, 4's on everything else. Can't have it all my friend.

Yay everyone likes me

Jihallah, I too noticed plagues getting beaten up, but that's probably because the last two marine books caused everyone to go anti marine even more (as well as anti FNP in the BA's case). Not to mention both those armies are strong themselves, and Tyranids throw down so many attacks with poison or ignore armour (in the case of MC's) that you dont get a huge benefit.

I agree that theyre still strong, but I'd rather use my Tyranids at the moment. I love eating all marines equally with them

Night Lords wrote:Yay everyone likes me

Jihallah, I too noticed plagues getting beaten up, but that's probably because the last two marine books caused everyone to go anti marine even more (as well as anti FNP in the BA's case). Not to mention both those armies are strong themselves, and Tyranids throw down so many attacks with poison or ignore armour (in the case of MC's) that you dont get a huge benefit.

I agree that theyre still strong, but I'd rather use my Tyranids at the moment. I love eating all marines equally with them

but they smell bad and are all diseased what did they ever do to you!

Oh man i love me some bolters d(^_^)b

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Stormrider wrote:Are you really complaining about Bolters? Really? C'mon man! Take the Basic weapon of your army and compare it to:

Honestly I'd rather have Tactical Boyz w/ Shootaz than Bolters. Just sayin'

Yeah, that's just what they need to do, is give BS 4 3+ save troops 18" assault 2 rifles. Aw screw it, just give them autocannons and relentless. Throw a power weapon bayonet on the end that counts as an extra CC weapon and a Storm Shield guard on it too. Allow them to add any mix of combi-multi-melta and combi-flamestorm to their autocannon for free. Then go ahead and reduce the Tac Marine point cost by 4 points, add melta-bombs as standard equipment, and maybe we can make some of these marine players happy.

now lets not be ridiculous....
not sure that it would really change anything if bolters were assault 2 18". its like oh no you kill maybe 1 more marine or a few more orks on the charge soooo scary.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:"Now if you have a Space Marine a Pulse Rifle, of course it's better."
exactly

"thats stupid"
well you said it.

I was just talking about the guns, not the models carrying it. that's not as counter intuitive as you might think. kroot shapers can tape pulse rifles guard commisars can take bolters sm and guardsmen can both take plasma weapons etc. the characteristics of the weapon are important by themselves.

Now Kroot dont misunderstand me. my point is this... and only this...and this is like the 10th time Ive said this on this thread....so I hope your reading...IF YOU GET A CHANCE TO UPGRADE A BOLTER YOU SHOULD DO IT. read that again if you need to before replying. read it as many times as you need to. but please, for the love of christ, READ IT.

AF

This is why you can't discount the models carrying it:

rapid fire range Vs. Orks:
10 Marines (Bolters): 20*.66*.5= 6.6 dead
10 Tau(Pulse Rifle): 20*.5*.66= 6.6 dead

Vs. Guard:
Marines: 20*.66*.66= 8.71 dead
Tau: 20*.5*.84= 8.4 dead

So the guns are pretty much equally effective right? Lets say the two squads had an old fashioned simultaneous shoot out
Marines: 20*.66*.66*.5= 4.356 dead Tau
Tau:20*.5*.66*.33= 2.178 dead Marines

The weapon is only as good as the individuals shooting it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:now lets not be ridiculous....
not sure that it would really change anything if bolters were assault 2 18". its like oh no you kill maybe 1 more marine or a few more orks on the charge soooo scary.

I don't think you really look at the big picture. I drive my rhino up and disembark my marines 18" away from your Orks. I fire 20 shots. I kill 6 if no cover, 4 if 5+, 3 if 4+. Unless you get a 6" Waagh!, I am out of your assault range (and probably out completely if you have to move through cover), which means that next turn, I once *again* get to shoot you with 20 shots (killing 6,4, or 3 respectively) and then assault you, denying you your furious charge and killing, without any special weapons, four Orks before they get to swing. So the Tac Squad so far has killed at least 10 Orks, versus 5~6 for either shooting with bolt pistols and assaulting, or rapid firing at 12" and taking the assault. Doubling your output isn't bad.

Now what if I used more than one squad? the 18" range means I could spread out to make multi-assault a non-issue. What if I'm Space Wolves and keep backing up till you manage to catch me and then counter-attack you?

Sternguard with special ammunition on 18" assault 2 guns?

Big Picture.

ooohhhh.... the *big* picture.... you're right. I should look at the big picture more often. I'm kind of a small picture guy but I see now that you're right. It's the big picture that counts. thanks. really.
AF

I'm honestly shocked how often people don't think of things like that on dakka. Like when i asked if anyone had ever played chess, to which i got about a million and one "chess lawl?" posts and about 3 posts of "dakka? chess? are you crazy ".

nm, not gonna bother with this...

Kroot Loops wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Stormrider wrote:Are you really complaining about Bolters? Really? C'mon man! Take the Basic weapon of your army and compare it to:

Honestly I'd rather have Tactical Boyz w/ Shootaz than Bolters. Just sayin'

Yeah, that's just what they need to do, is give BS 4 3+ save troops 18" assault 2 rifles. Aw screw it, just give them autocannons and relentless. Throw a power weapon bayonet on the end that counts as an extra CC weapon and a Storm Shield guard on it too. Allow them to add any mix of combi-multi-melta and combi-flamestorm to their autocannon for free. Then go ahead and reduce the Tac Marine point cost by 4 points, add melta-bombs as standard equipment, and maybe we can make some of these marine players happy.

Did I say any of that other nonsense?

The comment was in the context of, "Bolters are the best basic infantry weapon", which IMO is an incorrect statement. Read the entire conversation or don't respond at all, it makes you look silly.

Speaking of giving Space Marines an Assault weapon, all Tactical Space Marines come with a Bolt Pistol so that they have one shot at 18"-24" if they don't move, one shot at 12"-18" if they don't move and two shots if they move directly towards the target, two shots from 1"-12" if they move and don't charge into combat, and one shot from 1"-6" if they subsequently charge for two attacks. Very tactical.

The bolter is the basic infantry gun, and I agree with abbadon with getting as many assualt weapons as you can, but if you could have all of the SM in the squad take special weapons SM would be OP.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Stormrider wrote:Are you really complaining about Bolters? Really? C'mon man! Take the Basic weapon of your army and compare it to:

Honestly I'd rather have Tactical Boyz w/ Shootaz than Bolters. Just sayin'

Yeah, that's just what they need to do, is give BS 4 3+ save troops 18" assault 2 rifles. Aw screw it, just give them autocannons and relentless. Throw a power weapon bayonet on the end that counts as an extra CC weapon and a Storm Shield guard on it too. Allow them to add any mix of combi-multi-melta and combi-flamestorm to their autocannon for free. Then go ahead and reduce the Tac Marine point cost by 4 points, add melta-bombs as standard equipment, and maybe we can make some of these marine players happy.

Did I say any of that other nonsense?

The comment was in the context of, "Bolters are the best basic infantry weapon", which IMO is an incorrect statement. Read the entire conversation or don't respond at all, it makes you look silly.

It's called sarcasm. I have read the entire conversation, the OP premise is that Bolters aren't good for a number of reasons including 'they can't hurt tanks', and cites examples such as when he shot a bunch of bolters at fortuned T6 targets with 3+ saves. Therefore the premise of the thread is that bolters are 'bad', and most people have been arguing against that. Further, this topic comes up fairly often over in proposed rules, so I get a little tired of seeing it.

Bolters are a good basic weapon. In the hands of space marines, they are *one* of the best basic weapons. I'm sure you would like an 18" assault 2 weapon. I'd like my Pulse Rifles to Rend. That doesn't change that both weapons are perfectly good the way they are now.

You clearly still do not understand the meaning of my post in context.

All i know is. only thing better than a Bolter......is a Storm Bolter. And only thing better than that is a twin-linked Storm bolter.

My Bolters always seem to serve my needs just fine.

Ideally I have them rapid fire to cover another assaulting unit. Maybe have a Flamer for those cowardly babies in cover.

SuperNiceGuy wrote:I think we have ourselves a level 10 troll here guys. Get out the flamers.

I hate Trollz...

Cam
yeah I agree if everyone could have an assault weapon the game would be silly

Assault weapons are cool, i think every army should have at least one in it for one unit, but not every unit, in every army that would be way too silly.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Stormrider
no...no I'm not complaining about bolters.... I'm suggesting that if you get a chance to upgrade them to assault weapons you should... and you should try to take as few of them as possible. that's all.
AF

You said in the OP

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I don't like bolters.

I think that means you're complaining about bolters and don't like them.

OP misses many points.

1) Include the free heavy weapon into the picture. It'd cost me 20 points for a ML. Not that Chaos Marines can even take them. Our special weapons

you get 10 + 1 missile launcher 170
For 170, I can get 10 spiky marines with 2 meltaguns.
They do different jobs. The chaos ones have no guns longer than 24" range. Their only anti-tank one is 12" range.
Tacticals can damage tanks from 24-48" away.

Combat Tactics is worth at least 1-2 points per model. ATSKNF is worth 1-2 points each model at least.
No one else gets to automatically end combat after 1 round, run backwards, and automatically regroup + shoot next turn even with less than half models left.

2. Tacticals aren't supposed to be your assault troops. That's why there's something called an Assault Squad. Tacticals are a way to dig into objectives and get cheap Plasma Cannons, Multi-meltas, etc.

Heavy weapons and Special weapons do different jobs. Chaos troops can't take Heavy Weapons. Vanilla troops can't take Special weapons.

3. You assume every enemy in the entire enemy army is in terrain. If he has any models out of cover (because hormagaunts cannot stay in cover the entire journey across the board) then bolters can tear them apart with AP5. Massive hordes of guardsmen might be better shooting per point of guy, but they're also vulnerable to Ordinance and flamers completely removing cover. Marines get 3+ saves even when hit by a Whirlwind's missiles. Guardsmen don't.

Since it takes a TON of lasguns to do any damage, that means he'll have to bunch up a lot, BOOM ORDINANCE.

4) If marines were given assault weapons, they'd be 8-12" like the Shotguns which Scout marines can have.

And since you've just stated that every unit is always in cover, obviously marines have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER. You can just buy Scout marines with Shotguns on every one. They'll get 4+ cover saves AND 2 assault shots before charging into combat.

Vene wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Stormrider
no...no I'm not complaining about bolters.... I'm suggesting that if you get a chance to upgrade them to assault weapons you should... and you should try to take as few of them as possible. that's all.
AF

You said in the OP

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I don't like bolters.

I think that means you're complaining about bolters and don't like them.

If only he didn't ignore me, the things i would post...

Addressing TheBloodGod's 3rd point- Thank you. to quote it- "because hormagaunts cannot stay in cover the entire journey across the board". The way some people factor in cover, it seems they assume the board is nothing BUT cover

Dude, just build your army with all plasma guns and flamers. Put it on the shelf. Never play it.
"Ohh, my regular weapons can't hurt tanks!"
Someone dial whine-1-1 for this guy, have 'em send a WHAAAmbulance.

@battle Brother Lucifer:
As funny as that was......do you realize how much /facepalm is stuffed in that one post...esp. for those that recognize where it came from...../sigh/

/Golfclap. But still funny.

Except that they can infact hurt vehicles. A squad firing at some AV10 open-topped vehicles (Ork Trukks, Warwalkers, Sentinels, Landspeeders, etc.) are reasonably effective. It takes 20 shots to destroy one, and only 10 to keep it from shooting. Even targets that aren't open-topped (Chimeras primarily) are vulnerable. If you hit the side of a Chimera with a squad of Marines, even from 24" away, you're reasonably likely to keep not only the Chimera from shooting, but its cargo.