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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Turnip, wasn't that movie Solo?


almost, well bar that last minute shoehorning,

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Kind of a weird thread to throw rocks at Ewoks. The two Ewok spinoff movies, maligned as they are, gave us more Star Wars than the two Star Wars ST movies.


I’ve still got a massive soft spot for those. Quite possibly because in term of age, I was just right.

Born in 1980, by the time I was aware of more than ANH actually existing (did wonder why my brother’s C-3PO had removable arms and legs, and a weird bag thing), they were all long out of the cinema.

Ewok movies? Random video store find. And they were fun. They have their market, and that’s to be respected. Even if you yourself aren’t a fan of them, or their subject.

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I was the right age for Ewoks but I still don’t get the hate. Then again, I’ve never treated the Empire as seriously as many seem to. They always seemed in line with COBRA or the Foot Clan to me. Getting taken out by teddy bears really doesn’t bother me.
   
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Without intending to insult anyone, there is the simple fact none of us are kids anymore. And it’s been a long time since we were.

I get the worship of the original trilogy. They were pretty superb, and a major part of pretty much all our childhoods.

But there seems to be an expectation in some quarters for the new films to have moved on in terms of content and stylings in-line with our ever evolving tastes and preferences.

And that’s a fool’s wish, if you ask me.

We’re simply the wrong people to ask if ‘sequel, prequel or spin-off X’ had the same impact as when we were first diddy and seeing Star Wars for the first time. Because of course it is. The Rose Tinted Glasses are strong with our kind. Very strong.

It’ll be a decade at least before we know how those of similar age to us at the time hold the prequels in the same high regard as we hold the original trilogy. Because they are the benchmark. Not us.

I mean, I’m 40 next year (no, I’m not sure how that happened either. But here’s to not looking it!). Who really gives a damn what I think of a film trying to draw a younger audience? What actual value is their in my opinion to the producing studio?

Like or loathe, and anything in between, TFA and TLJ made big, big money at the Box Office. Those claiming some kind of Nerd Pushback over Solo’s disappointing performance are frankly only fooling themselves. There’s lot of analysis from those with no horse in the race which explains stuff about that.

In short? It’s not about us. And frankly, it hasn’t been for a long, long, long time. It’s a nasty hill to get over, but we’re increasingly irrelevant as consumers. But that’s inevitable.

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Solo is the movie overloaded with deep lore baggage aimed at “us” and it failed. TLA did not despite what people with the time to rant online might have you believe. If Disney is giving up on any part of the audience when it comes to Star Wars, it’s most certainly not “them”.
   
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Scotland

Star Wars isn't for Star Wars fans anymore?

That's a galaxy brain take. It's also fairly insulting to suggest that kids films can't be written well. That's all we ask. That it's written well.

Everything has been handed over to spectacle and subversion. It feels ok at the time, but then you think about it and it just goes down the toilet.

Like New Trek before it, Star Wars is now in the grip of this fad.
   
Made in gb
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Original trilogy wasn’t particularly well written. Or directed.

That’s what I’m driving at.

But most of the complaints I see appear to come from ‘how dare this not be designed solely to satisfy me’.

Same with Trek.

We’re not young anymore. We’re old. We’ve been exposed to the same moral plays in different retellings.

It’s fine not to like them. Again, this isn’t an Opinion Inquisition. But the downright forensic analysis of new films is just boring. Not to mention fruitless.

Neither your childhood or mine is dented one iota by new films. And if a given persons was? Then I feel for them, because despite various real life horrors I’ve been through, I can still look back to a pretty happy and carefree childhood. And that’s despite Operation Yewtree exposing more than one person I adored as a kid being the worst kind of monster imaginable.

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SoCal

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Turnip, wasn't that movie Solo?


almost, well bar that last minute shoehorning,


Right. I forgot about that.

   
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The Great State of Texas

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Original trilogy wasn’t particularly well written. Or directed.

That’s what I’m driving at.

But most of the complaints I see appear to come from ‘how dare this not be designed solely to satisfy me’.

Same with Trek.

We’re not young anymore. We’re old. We’ve been exposed to the same moral plays in different retellings.

It’s fine not to like them. Again, this isn’t an Opinion Inquisition. But the downright forensic analysis of new films is just boring. Not to mention fruitless.

Neither your childhood or mine is dented one iota by new films. And if a given persons was? Then I feel for them, because despite various real life horrors I’ve been through, I can still look back to a pretty happy and carefree childhood. And that’s despite Operation Yewtree exposing more than one person I adored as a kid being the worst kind of monster imaginable.


Star Trek II and Empire Strikes Back would like to have a word with you around back.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Just finishing my drinkies. Tell them 10 minutes.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Without intending to insult anyone, there is the simple fact none of us are kids anymore. And it’s been a long time since we were.

I get the worship of the original trilogy. They were pretty superb, and a major part of pretty much all our childhoods.

But there seems to be an expectation in some quarters for the new films to have moved on in terms of content and stylings in-line with our ever evolving tastes and preferences.

And that’s a fool’s wish, if you ask me.

We’re simply the wrong people to ask if ‘sequel, prequel or spin-off X’ had the same impact as when we were first diddy and seeing Star Wars for the first time. Because of course it is. The Rose Tinted Glasses are strong with our kind. Very strong.

It’ll be a decade at least before we know how those of similar age to us at the time hold the prequels in the same high regard as we hold the original trilogy. Because they are the benchmark. Not us.

I mean, I’m 40 next year (no, I’m not sure how that happened either. But here’s to not looking it!). Who really gives a damn what I think of a film trying to draw a younger audience? What actual value is their in my opinion to the producing studio?

Like or loathe, and anything in between, TFA and TLJ made big, big money at the Box Office. Those claiming some kind of Nerd Pushback over Solo’s disappointing performance are frankly only fooling themselves. There’s lot of analysis from those with no horse in the race which explains stuff about that.

In short? It’s not about us. And frankly, it hasn’t been for a long, long, long time. It’s a nasty hill to get over, but we’re increasingly irrelevant as consumers. But that’s inevitable.


Star Wars the origignal series was a fun actuion adventure - its not awesome, its not life changing (for me anyway) but it was good fun

The prequals were just bad films

TFA was ok - not great but watchable

TLJ was a pile of tedious, poorly wirtten and directed gak - its not just a terribel Star Wars film - its a terrible terrible film full stop.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 20:51:07


"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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LA

I'm filled with a sense of dread, yet also curiousity. I guess I can just set my expectation as hoping that it will be at least a little better and more original/well thought out than the current sequel trilogy. Might help if they actually have a planned story arc instead of winging it as they go.

 
   
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 Thargrim wrote:
I'm filled with a sense of dread, yet also curiousity. I guess I can just set my expectation as hoping that it will be at least a little better and more original/well thought out than the current sequel trilogy. Might help if they actually have a planned story arc instead of winging it as they go.


I'll watch it on sky etc when I am bored - far better things to do with my time than see anything associated with Rian Johnson

I am not actually sure what would be good - some of the Clone Wars stuff was good - when there were no "funny" stupid war robots, although best Star Wars stuff I have seen in years is the Lego ones.

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

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Made in gb
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TLJ isn’t a bad film though. At all.

It’s decently written. Decently acted. Decently shot and directed. The plot, to the casual viewer, holds up.

Compare to say, Justice League. That is awful. A genuine confused mess, where everyone just sort of farts around until Superman gets his act together, and does everything better than everyone else. Against a pretty much anonymous villain,

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
TLJ isn’t a bad film though. At all.

It’s decently written. Decently acted. Decently shot and directed. The plot, to the casual viewer, holds up.

Compare to say, Justice League. That is awful. A genuine confused mess, where everyone just sort of farts around until Superman gets his act together, and does everything better than everyone else. Against a pretty much anonymous villain,


Disagree entirely with every thing you just said
TLJ is dull, boring tedious, the plot is laughable and make zero sense to even the most casual viewer - summed up by the stupid, mind numbingly dull "chase" that is broken up by the pointless trip to casino world, the lack of any conceiavle reason for anything anyone does at any point. The writing is laugable - the characters are pathetic and have no heart, coherence or make any sense. It was written in crayon by blind monkeys

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Hmm... no Johnson?



   
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RVA

TLJ is a terrible movie. I don’t hate Rian. I can only imagine the kind of pressure he was under to both follow TFA, which was an incredible box office performer if a completely conventional film, as well as the pressure to transition SW from a George Lucas thing to a Lucasfilm (property of Disney) thing. But he didn’t handle the pressure well and his film is the disastrous result. That said, TLJ is nowhere near as bad as the people who hate it tend to claim. It is technically well made in the most formal senses, in terms of its lighting and wardrobe and the editing is mostly good and some of the acting is pretty good. This is more than can be said for the Prequels, honestly. But “better than the Prequels” is possibly the lowest bar imaginable for a SW movie, especially one following a very successful franchise (soft) reboot.

So now SW needs another soft reboot, after only two Disney films. It’s quite a shame.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/10 05:16:54


   
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I kind of wonder, if we could find someone around 40 who doesn't dislike sci fi, but has somehow never seen the original trilogy, what their opinion of it would be?

Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
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TLJ is similar to prequels in the sense that it would have immensely benefitted from one more review and rewrite cycle. It comes across as a draft of a script. TFA, by contrast, feels like it was fiddled with too much, I can imagine it went through so many committee meetings and viewer demographic analysis sessions that anything even remotely interesting or challenging was filtered out.

Any way, since the new trilogy is coming out almost right behind the current one, it seems to me it is likely to continue from where the old one ended, instead of another 20 years+ something timejump.

I predict Rise of Skywalker will end in cliffhanger of some kind.

Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! 
   
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 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I kind of wonder, if we could find someone around 40 who doesn't dislike sci fi, but has somehow never seen the original trilogy, what their opinion of it would be?


That would be interesting indeed

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Backfire wrote:
I predict Rise of Skywalker will end in cliffhanger of some kind.
It's JJ Abrams, a man who has tremendous difficulty finishing anything, so I imagine you'll be right.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/10 08:39:00


   
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Original trilogy wasn’t particularly well written. Or directed.

That’s what I’m driving at.


And that's another Galaxy Brain take. They're a benchmark for a reason.

But most of the complaints I see appear to come from ‘how dare this not be designed solely to satisfy me’.

Same with Trek.


Actually, to satisfy "us", ie the fans of the properties who have kept them alive all these years with our attention, our effort, our money. So err, who else should they be made for exactly? If you trade on the fandom for decades, then casually discard them with a "well, it's not for you anymore, get a life neerrrrrd", how on earth would you expect people to react? And don't kid-on that they're making some high minded principled choice to rework these IPs for a new audience because it's just time, or to bring them to a new generation - they're doing it because the whole entertainment industry is locked into the failing perpetual growth model that all aspects of our economy are, and making a decent amount of money isn't enough, they have to make all the money, they have to have their big RoI, they have to dazzle the shareholders.

There's no moral high ground over the fandom for "creators" motivated by cynical greed.

We’re not young anymore. We’re old. We’ve been exposed to the same moral plays in different retellings.


In. Different. Settings.

If a company wants to come along and make Star Battles, their subversive, modern take on a space-fantasy action adventure, fantastic, I applaud them. If they want to come along and make Stellar Wanderings, a gritty and drama-focused reworking of a utopian sci-fi future, on you go, nae bother. But they aren't doing that, they're taking existing settings, stories, worlds, and gutting them - ripping out all the bits they don't like, and cramming the flaccid skin with bits they do like, stitching the resulting Frankenstein back up and then labelling any fans who recoil from the monstrosity as hopeless nostalgics, obsessive nerds, or just outright bigots.

It’s fine not to like them. Again, this isn’t an Opinion Inquisition. But the downright forensic analysis of new films is just boring. Not to mention fruitless.


In your opinion. A lot of folk find discussing things they dislike as interesting as discussing things they do.

Neither your childhood or mine is dented one iota by new films. And if a given persons was? Then I feel for them, because despite various real life horrors I’ve been through, I can still look back to a pretty happy and carefree childhood. And that’s despite Operation Yewtree exposing more than one person I adored as a kid being the worst kind of monster imaginable.


And this sentiment perpetually annoys me. It's the same as those people who respond to fans of discontinued tabletop games with "nyeeeh, they've not burned your books or anything, stop whinging nyeeeh". When people use that "destroyed my childhood" phrase, you do realise it's just that aye? A phrase? Like when someone accuses someone else of lying with "pants on fire", they don't actually mean their trousers have burst into flames. What is meant, the feeling behind those words, is the opportunity cost. This is a thing a lot of people liked and enjoyed, and they were looking forward to getting more of it.

I'm going to actually break in here and really emphasise that, because it bears repeating over and over. OT fans were excited to see TFA. The result was OK, not great, bit disappointing, it doesn't hold up in the way the OT does, not because of nostalgia or rose tints, but because of the actual content and pacing of the movie. And OT fans were excited to see TLJ. Because people hoped that it would take what TFA did right and do more of that, while avoiding what TFA did meh. We all saw how that turned out.

But that's the point; "they ruined my childhood" is not a claim they reached back in time and stole your positive memories, or retroactively ruined the existing stories - those are caricatures put forward by people like MovieBob to allow them to dismiss the substance of the complaint without having to actually address it - it's a lament that they've taken away, or at least damaged, that sense of anticipation. That they've shifted you from a place where any announcement of new material in the setting you like prompts excitement and wonder like when you were a kid, to one where the best you can muster up is weary neutrality, and eventually just disappointment that another opportunity for you to enjoy the setting you liked will be lost.

Personally, I'm not there yet with Star Wars. I'm still quite anticipating the TV stuff, but I can absolutely imagine how a lot of SW fans feel because that's the way I feel about Trek now. I was hype back when they showed the first teasers for the JJprise, and in the 10 years since they've worn down the goodwill generated by the previous 20 years of me being a fan to the point where I can't bring myself to keep watching the only show on TV with the Trek branding, and feel only apprehension as to how they're going to further screw up the upcoming shows. And I'm one of those people who can even enjoy the mediocre episodes of Voyager and Enterprise.

You're free to dismiss that if you like, but it's nowhere near as simplistic as you're making out.

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-----
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I kind of wonder, if we could find someone around 40 who doesn't dislike sci fi, but has somehow never seen the original trilogy, what their opinion of it would be?


That would be interesting indeed


it would given - especially if they can remain ojective unlike the offical reviewers....

I still maintain its not a bad Star Wars film its terible Film whatever the genre or style.

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

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The whole new SW trilogy would have benefited most from a outline that plotted the actual trajectory and plot of all the characters through all 3 films instead of handing it off to the next director and telling them to do what they want with no end goal in mind.

The MCU works because they have a plan. There is wiggle room in each movie and pieces can shift around and move, but they know where all the pieces need to end up to tell the story they want to tell. Disney Wars has never had that thus far. RJ got saddled with JJs mystery boxes and more or less got told to come up with answers on his own while telling a new middle chapter story. What a gak job to be given.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

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 Lance845 wrote:
The whole new SW trilogy would have benefited most from a outline that plotted the actual trajectory and plot of all the characters through all 3 films instead of handing it off to the next director and telling them to do what they want with no end goal in mind.

The MCU works because they have a plan. There is wiggle room in each movie and pieces can shift around and move, but they know where all the pieces need to end up to tell the story they want to tell. Disney Wars has never had that thus far. RJ got saddled with JJs mystery boxes and more or less got told to come up with answers on his own while telling a new middle chapter story. What a gak job to be given.


Thats likely fair - although the first films also just seemed to chop up the original two films and recreate them in a slightly different order

So TLJ lazily just puts the Battle for Hoth at the end rather than the start and swaps an exciting chase through an asteroid field for a tediously drawn out trudge through space with little happening.

I am not sure if there was any gudiance at all butgiven how much he was paid - its not that bad a job - there are much worse!

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in fi
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 Lance845 wrote:
The whole new SW trilogy would have benefited most from a outline that plotted the actual trajectory and plot of all the characters through all 3 films instead of handing it off to the next director and telling them to do what they want with no end goal in mind.

The MCU works because they have a plan. There is wiggle room in each movie and pieces can shift around and move, but they know where all the pieces need to end up to tell the story they want to tell. Disney Wars has never had that thus far. RJ got saddled with JJs mystery boxes and more or less got told to come up with answers on his own while telling a new middle chapter story. What a gak job to be given.


In fairness, original trilogy also had no plan. First movie was designed as stand-alone in the case it flops commercially (and Lucas had backup story created for cheap sequel). Then they just made it up as they went along and twiddled it until pieces fit. "Darth Vader", for example, was meant to be a name, not a title. This is why Obi-Wan calls him "Darth".
JJA and Kasdan made TFA and its setting and characters vague enough so that whoever made the next movie could go to any number of directions. This is more or less what Lucas did, too. Only for Prequels he had a 'plan' and it went all horribly wrong.

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 Mr Morden wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
TLJ isn’t a bad film though. At all.

It’s decently written. Decently acted. Decently shot and directed. The plot, to the casual viewer, holds up.

Compare to say, Justice League. That is awful. A genuine confused mess, where everyone just sort of farts around until Superman gets his act together, and does everything better than everyone else. Against a pretty much anonymous villain,


Disagree entirely with every thing you just said
TLJ is dull, boring tedious, the plot is laughable and make zero sense to even the most casual viewer - summed up by the stupid, mind numbingly dull "chase" that is broken up by the pointless trip to casino world, the lack of any conceiavle reason for anything anyone does at any point. The writing is laugable - the characters are pathetic and have no heart, coherence or make any sense. It was written in crayon by blind monkeys
This was very definitely my impression, and really destroyed my ability to care about the franchise going forward as anything but a SFX display.

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SoCal

But vague doesn't work when a sequel has to justify itself and explain why the epic conclusion of the previous trilogy was not the epic conclusion. Having no plan works when you can take the story anywhere--it does not work when you are boxed in, deliberately, with billions of dollars worth of existing lore that needs to maintain its value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the prequels, having a plan is the beginning of a successful enterprise, not the end. Execution matters. If the plan is the skeleton, the execution is what makes the final creature live and breathe, makes it beautiful. They didn't liken following up the Star Wars OT to threading a needle or catching lightning in a bottle because it's supposed to be easy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/10 17:41:25


   
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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
But vague doesn't work when a sequel has to justify itself and explain why the epic conclusion of the previous trilogy was not the epic conclusion.


This was failure of TFA, yes. I actually like the backstory behind the new trilogy. It's kind of a take of Versailles treaty and rise of the Nazis. But nowhere in the movies they bother to properly explain it, thus leaving the viewer to believe it is like Empire vs Rebel Alliance from the OT, while it is more complicated than that.

Also, I don't think TLJ does poorly when resolving the 'mystery boxes' left by TFA. Rather, TLJ suffers from having a draft-like script and somewhat weird structure and pacing. Basic plot of the movie is hardly in any major violation of any potential 'plan' they might have had when they wrote up TFA. I am quite sure that the situation at end of TLJ is pretty much what they envisioned when they started planning the new trilogy. Because otherwise it would be too different from ESB and people would not like it...

Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! 
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

JJ left things open-ended, but RJ either erased it or crapped on it. I don’t blame RJ for JJ’s work. I blame RJ for his own work.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


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