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vaatbak wrote:

Those (mostly) are just new units, which is different than realy changing an old unit with lots of fluff.

One word: Lamentors.

BaronIveagh wrote:

vaatbak wrote:

Those (mostly) are just new units, which is different than realy changing an old unit with lots of fluff.

One word: Lamentors.

Touché

H.B.M.C. wrote:

they havent changed that much in my opinion

*clears throat*

Vanguard.
Sternguard.
Thunderfire Cannons.
Land Speeder Storm.
Land Raider Redeemer.
Librarian Dreads.
Stormraven Gunships.
Sanguinary Guard.
The mother fething Sanguinor.
Psyker Battle Squads.
Leman Russ Eradicator.
Leman Russ Punisher.
Devil Dog.
Bane Wolf.
Colossus (not matter how similar it is to the Bombard, it's still not a Bombard).
Vendetta Gunship
Harpies.
Venomthropes.
Hive Guard.
Pyrovores.
Mawlocs.
Tervigons.
Tyrannofexes.
The Swarmlord (and the changes to the fluff that see Calgar getting munted by the guy, even though in previous fluff Calgar was up in space leading his fleet against Hive Fleet Behemoth)
The Doom of Malan'tai
Parasite of Mortrex
Lone Wolves.
God-damned Thunderwolf Cavalry (and Canis Wolfborn as well).
Wracks*.
Cronos Parasite Engine*.
Razorwing Jetfighters*.
Voidraven Bombers*.


None of these things existed until they were retconned into the fluff (with the exception of the Harpie, but it's description says 'Flying Trygon' and not 'Flying Warrior', so that's open for debate). And these are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. GW adds and takes away from the fluff whatever they need to pretty much push new kits. To claim that the fluff is sacred and that once its written it can never be changed is quite simply ignorant. All one needs to do is look at the above list to see how malleable the fluff (and therefore the rules) are. This will happen again with Codex Grey Knights. We already know about the Dreadknight from various reports, and that won't be the last change, we can be assured of that.


*I temper my statements about the Dark Eldar somewhat as they completely redesigned the race from the ground up, something that I'm sure most people feel was necessary.

well maybe you need too reread what i posted. i said not much is different (so there is somethings different) and they added somethings. well a lot of things but i think you can scrap the tyranid stuff because acordding too nid fluff they evolve into newer and deadlier speciemens. i do agree with the magnus stuff thats whacked.
and the IG stuff i believe they just invented some new tanks like a lot of nations do first you had the panzer and now the abrahams tank. its just a natrual order too make new tanks and stuff. and if GW didnt add units and dropped units we wouldnt need too buy a lot of models now do we? and we dont need a new codex they lose money and GW go's broke and where left with nothing but what we have and we get bored and stop playing and they world will never know GW excisted and then there is gonna be a huge explosion and tyranids get real and we dodnt know the tactics too beat them o god emperor save our butts. o wait you died also becuase nobody bought space marines which allowed you to buy a golden throne. that thing is F ing expensive

Except for maybe the Thunderfire Cannon and maybe one or two others, all of those units are just extensions of bits of fluff. Even the Thunderwolf Cavalry.

Except that they're not. They're new things slotted into the existing fluff. Added to the history. Made to be as if they were always already there. So few of them are listed as 'new' in the fluff.

And my point stands - the fluff is not sacred, and will be changed as much as GW requires it to be changed to fit with whatever their new vision (or model requirements) are.

Thunderwolves are not new. They've been in the Space Wolf fluff for as long as I can remember.

Space Wolves riding them is new, however.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Except that they're not. They're new things slotted into the existing fluff. Added to the history. Made to be as if they were always already there. So few of them are listed as 'new' in the fluff.

And my point stands - the fluff is not sacred, and will be changed as much as GW requires it to be changed to fit with whatever their new vision (or model requirements) are.

He speaks the truth. Stuff is constanly retconned. Thunderwolf cavalry was introduced "as if it was always there".

GW does mess with the fluff a lot - Ultramarines who are said to be ultrazealous regarding Codex Astartes, yet had the Tyranic War Veterans.

Captain Chenkov was a lot different in 2nd Edition I.G. Codex - none of that "tyrant" stuff he's got going on now. The Librarian Dreadnought. In fact, the Blood Angels changed a lot. It wasn't so much a case of fluff expansion, it was retconning. There was never a Sanguinary Guard, there was no Sanguinor.

So we can't really say that Assassins can't work in groups - previous codex incarnations said that they were used sparingly, but there are rare occasions where they are sent in groups.

Destrado wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Except that they're not. They're new things slotted into the existing fluff. Added to the history. Made to be as if they were always already there. So few of them are listed as 'new' in the fluff.

And my point stands - the fluff is not sacred, and will be changed as much as GW requires it to be changed to fit with whatever their new vision (or model requirements) are.

He speaks the truth. Stuff is constanly retconned. Thunderwolf cavalry was introduced "as if it was always there".

And again:
Thunderwolves have always been a part of Fenrisian lore. The Fenrisian Wolves have pretty much always been described as being "able to grow to the size of Rhino APCs, with fangs and claws able to tear clean through armor". The "Ragnar Blackmane" books from Bill King made mentions of things like that.

The only "retcon" is that they're now being ridden by some of the more savage members of the Wolves.

GW does mess with the fluff a lot - Ultramarines who are said to be ultrazealous regarding Codex Astartes, yet had the Tyranic War Veterans.

Which still actually followed the Codex Astartes. They were members of the other companies, who were elevated to the First Company after the Tyrannic Wars. They use the standard Veteran squad insignias, color signifiers, etc. The only difference is that these particular veterans are highly experienced in fighting one type of enemy, and one type of enemy only.

Is it a petty difference? Yeah. But, still. They were within the Codex Astartes.

Captain Chenkov was a lot different in 2nd Edition I.G. Codex - none of that "tyrant" stuff he's got going on now.

Uh, I'm pretty sure he still was tossing bodies at the problem even back then.

The Librarian Dreadnought. In fact, the Blood Angels changed a lot. It wasn't so much a case of fluff expansion, it was retconning. There was never a Sanguinary Guard, there was no Sanguinor.

Fairly certain there was a "Sanguinary Guard", in the "Honor Guard" units that could accompany Sanguinary Priests and the like.

Librarian Dreadnoughts...ehhhh. We never saw them, but we also never saw anything that didn't suggest they couldn't exist.

So we can't really say that Assassins can't work in groups - previous codex incarnations said that they were used sparingly, but there are rare occasions where they are sent in groups.

Biggest problem I have with the "Assassin Squads" is simply that the Assassins are supposed to be highly trained individuals who work alone. Maybe having more than one type of Assassin on the field should provide some kind of synergistic effect, but they can't operate within the same radius of each other without an "animosity" styled effect?

Like: A Vindicare and Eversor are on the field at the same time. The Vindicare being on the field provides the Eversor with a more "precise" deep strike ability, while the Eversor in turn provides the Vindicare some kind of reroll or more 'precision' shooting ability.

Just spitballing here. That kind of thing is too in depth for GW these days.

Kanluwen wrote:Thunderwolves have always been a part of Fenrisian lore. The Fenrisian Wolves have pretty much always been described as being "able to grow to the size of Rhino APCs, with fangs and claws able to tear clean through armor". The "Ragnar Blackmane" books from Bill King made mentions of things like that.

First off, I know Thunderwolves have been in the fluff since the 2nd edition codex, but they weren't being used as mounts. Clearly some WOW influence there But anyway, that's a very different interpretation, as they never were cavalry. That was the difference.
So we're basically in agreement here.

Which still actually followed the Codex Astartes. They were members of the other companies, who were elevated to the First Company after the Tyrannic Wars. They use the standard Veteran squad insignias, color signifiers, etc. The only difference is that these particular veterans are highly experienced in fighting one type of enemy, and one type of enemy only.

Which I remember reading, was against the core principles of the Codex: over-specialization against one enemy. Not that I can pinpoint the particular place where I've seen it, but it was something of an offense to nearly the rest of the Chapter. Marneus Calgar, however, took no attitude. There was no schism with the Ultras like that before, they were introduced in later and eventually got sort of joined with Death Watch Marines and turned into Sternguard. Sometimes Games Developers needlessly complicate stuff with rules in order to bring the fluff to the battlefield, and this doesn't work too well.

Uh, I'm pretty sure he still was tossing bodies at the problem even back then.

Not like he is now, is fluff was nothing like that. We can consider it was expanded, but nothing before even alluded to this. Not that I think it's bad.

Fairly certain there was a "Sanguinary Guard", in the "Honor Guard" units that could accompany Sanguinary Priests and the like.

Librarian Dreadnoughts...ehhhh. We never saw them, but we also never saw anything that didn't suggest they couldn't exist.

Well... Sanguinary Guard started (probably) when someone used Commander Dante's scheme over normal P.A., but there never was any "Sanguinary Guard" as said. But this is what the discussion is all about; things that weren't there or even alluded to, suddenly are brought into existence, and are made as if they were always there. Though in the S.G.'s case, it's just giving another name to Honour Guard.

In the case of the Assassins, there was precedent (even if it was just the bit about the group sent to kill Abby's Chosen).

Biggest problem I have with the "Assassin Squads" is simply that the Assassins are supposed to be highly trained individuals who work alone. Maybe having more than one type of Assassin on the field should provide some kind of synergistic effect, but they can't operate within the same radius of each other without an "animosity" styled effect?

Like: A Vindicare and Eversor are on the field at the same time. The Vindicare being on the field provides the Eversor with a more "precise" deep strike ability, while the Eversor in turn provides the Vindicare some kind of reroll or more 'precision' shooting ability.

Just spitballing here. That kind of thing is too in depth for GW these days.

Well.. I wouldn't exclude that (I didn't believe Power from Pain would be nearly army-wide rule), but it was there. As for the animosity... I'd bet we're more likely to see this with Inquisitors (the different factions do have a lot of conflicts with each others).

BTW, new avatar - Didn't immediately recognize you.

Destrado wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Thunderwolves have always been a part of Fenrisian lore. The Fenrisian Wolves have pretty much always been described as being "able to grow to the size of Rhino APCs, with fangs and claws able to tear clean through armor". The "Ragnar Blackmane" books from Bill King made mentions of things like that.

First off, I know Thunderwolves have been in the fluff since the 2nd edition codex, but they weren't being used as mounts. Clearly some WOW influence there But anyway, that's a very different interpretation, as they never were cavalry. That was the difference.
So we're basically in agreement here.

I don't know if it's WoW influence or them deciding "Well, let's have Space Wolves with a signature unit! I know...they're barbarians, right? So barbarians ride animals. What do we have in the line-up Smith?"
"Well...they have big honkin' wolves on their homeworld..."
"Smith, you're due a raise! Wolves riding wolves! GENIUS!".

At least that's how I like to imagine it.

Which still actually followed the Codex Astartes. They were members of the other companies, who were elevated to the First Company after the Tyrannic Wars. They use the standard Veteran squad insignias, color signifiers, etc. The only difference is that these particular veterans are highly experienced in fighting one type of enemy, and one type of enemy only.

Which I remember reading, was against the core principles of the Codex: over-specialization against one enemy. Not that I can pinpoint the particular place where I've seen it, but it was something of an offense to nearly the rest of the Chapter. Marneus Calgar, however, took no attitude. There was no schism with the Ultras like that before, they were introduced in later and eventually got sort of joined with Death Watch Marines and turned into Sternguard. Sometimes Games Developers needlessly complicate stuff with rules in order to bring the fluff to the battlefield, and this doesn't work too well.

I don't really remember there being anything about "overspecialization against one enemy", unless it really affects how they perform against another.

In this case, it didn't happen that way. They were the same ol' veterans, just with experience fighting Tyranids.

I do remember there being a blurb later on about them also later on that hinted towards the Tyrannic War Veterans being seconded to other Chapters and the Deathwatch to train Marines to deal with the Tyranid threat.
I think it was in a White Dwarf, but not sure which.

Uh, I'm pretty sure he still was tossing bodies at the problem even back then.

Not like he is now, is fluff was nothing like that. We can consider it was expanded, but nothing before even alluded to this. Not that I think it's bad.

Fairly certain there was a "Sanguinary Guard", in the "Honor Guard" units that could accompany Sanguinary Priests and the like.

Librarian Dreadnoughts...ehhhh. We never saw them, but we also never saw anything that didn't suggest they couldn't exist.

Well... Sanguinary Guard started (probably) when someone used Commander Dante's scheme over normal P.A., but there never was any "Sanguinary Guard" as said. But this is what the discussion is all about; things that weren't there or even alluded to, suddenly are brought into existence, and are made as if they were always there. Though in the S.G.'s case, it's just giving another name to Honour Guard.

Fair enough. I'm still willing to give Sanguinary Guard a bit of a benefit of the doubt, simply because they seem like it was someone taking the idea of an "Honor Guard" unit for a high ranking Blood Angel and then changing it to mirror the way the old Ultramarine Honor Guard squad was set up.

In the case of the Assassins, there was precedent (even if it was just the bit about the group sent to kill Abby's Chosen).

Well yeah, but with the assassins we don't know if it was just a group of them that were, overall, tasked to eliminate them or if they actually cooperated together to bring the Chosen down one at a time.

My bet is on the first, personally. If there's one thing that screams "We are the Imperium of Man!" it's people competing over the dumbest things

Biggest problem I have with the "Assassin Squads" is simply that the Assassins are supposed to be highly trained individuals who work alone. Maybe having more than one type of Assassin on the field should provide some kind of synergistic effect, but they can't operate within the same radius of each other without an "animosity" styled effect?

Like: A Vindicare and Eversor are on the field at the same time. The Vindicare being on the field provides the Eversor with a more "precise" deep strike ability, while the Eversor in turn provides the Vindicare some kind of reroll or more 'precision' shooting ability.

Just spitballing here. That kind of thing is too in depth for GW these days.

Well.. I wouldn't exclude that (I didn't believe Power from Pain would be nearly army-wide rule), but it was there. As for the animosity... I'd bet we're more likely to see this with Inquisitors (the different factions do have a lot of conflicts with each others).

I do like that idea, with radical Inquisitors and non-radical Inquisitors during bigger games with allied players taking issue.

BTW, new avatar - Didn't immediately recognize you.

Yeah, the new Stormtrooper icon for Retribution was too nice to pass up. I changed it from Alith-Anar, then wanted to change it to the Guardsman but Brook already took it

Well, I'm against the Space Wolves' signature unit :p Space Marines riding giant wolves? It's just ridiculous from every level. Rough Riders, I can understand to a point. But this... They already had a lot of unique troops, they didn't need that.

Funniest thing is that they put out what seems to be a good unit (except IMO, concept-wise) and then totally fail to deliver new miniatures for them.

The point about Tyrannic WV... I'll have to look it up.

I really think it's the models that bring it down. The riding part, not so much. I can live with that. It separates them from the Codex Chapters; which let's face it is something the Space Wolves are all about

But if it were me, I probably would have had the Thunderwolves as an attachment to a unit of Wulfen.

The model for Wolfy McWolfy is just terrible. Which sadly detracts even more from a unit that was already dubious.

At least they're not Half-Marine Half-Wolf "Centaurs".


Yet.

(let's just grab a couple of beers and walk out before this gets even more off-topic)

Destrado wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Except that they're not. They're new things slotted into the existing fluff. Added to the history. Made to be as if they were always already there. So few of them are listed as 'new' in the fluff.

And my point stands - the fluff is not sacred, and will be changed as much as GW requires it to be changed to fit with whatever their new vision (or model requirements) are.

He speaks the truth. Stuff is constanly retconned. Thunderwolf cavalry was introduced "as if it was always there".

GW does mess with the fluff a lot - Ultramarines who are said to be ultrazealous regarding Codex Astartes, yet had the Tyranic War Veterans.

Captain Chenkov was a lot different in 2nd Edition I.G. Codex - none of that "tyrant" stuff he's got going on now. The Librarian Dreadnought. In fact, the Blood Angels changed a lot. It wasn't so much a case of fluff expansion, it was retconning. There was never a Sanguinary Guard, there was no Sanguinor.

So we can't really say that Assassins can't work in groups - previous codex incarnations said that they were used sparingly, but there are rare occasions where they are sent in groups.

I'm not saying they don't want to sell models, but it is kind of difficult to add new ideas onto fluff that's stuck in M41. All I'm saying is that if I had to work there making rules, I'd probably do a little bit of the same if I had to.

my problem with multiple assassins is why? why would they send more then 1 assassin too kill an important men? if they didnt believe in the skills of that assassin why would they use him? Thats my motivation behind it

h.b.m.c. i never said fluff was sacred and they do change but thats neccercary see my funny but true explanation in my previous post.

Well what about the ability to field one of each Assassin but link it to a Special Character Inquisitor? It would give a new option to Inquisition-pure armies. It would fit the Strike Force theme.

Make it that the special character is a Lord Inquisitor; whom is usually in situations that require many targets to be taking care of; and that one single Assassin would not be enough.

fatty wrote:my problem with multiple assassins is why? why would they send more then 1 assassin too kill an important men? if they didnt believe in the skills of that assassin why would they use him?

Because there's a difference between confidence and hubris. You send more than one assassin because you believe the job might need more than one assassin.

I find it odd that stormtroopers are only BS3. Guard ST's are bs 4 and they aren't as well trained as inquisition troops. I understand why, since this is the "Grey Knight" codex, not the DH codex. But I am still disappointed.

At a plague marine cost GK's are spammable, but without melta I wonder how good they will be at killing tanks and MC's?

On a positive note, I hope the plastic models are as good as the metals! And it's nice to see assassins get scary again.

Pyriel- wrote:

Dreads
They will not get bogged down e.g. like what they did with the BA dreads.

What does this mean, how will they not get "bogged down"?

e.g. They will have some way to kill thngs is CC not have 2 atack kill two preceed to sit in cc with 15+ guys for the rest of the game

Mr Hyena wrote:Well what about the ability to field one of each Assassin but link it to a Special Character Inquisitor? It would give a new option to Inquisition-pure armies. It would fit the Strike Force theme.

Make it that the special character is a Lord Inquisitor; whom is usually in situations that require many targets to be taking care of; and that one single Assassin would not be enough.

how big is the chance that multipule high importance targets there are on one battle field?

@AlexHolker- you trust that your assassin is trained proparly. and if your not confident in your assassin why send him? when do you need more assassins?

I find it odd that stormtroopers are only BS3. Guard ST's are bs 4 and they aren't as well trained as inquisition troops. I understand why, since this is the "Grey Knight" codex, not the DH codex. But I am still disappointed.

Maybe because they are mindwiped every monday morning and thus the life long training IG stormtroopers receive is not atainable for troops that get mindwiped every time they see action against the daemonic and thus need to relearn everything on a pretty regular basis.

At a plague marine cost GK's are spammable, but without melta I wonder how good they will be at killing tanks and MC's?

If they cant counter everything by themselves (like tanks) becuase their weapon loadouts are to limited then they are not spammable at all.

e.g. They will have some way to kill thngs is CC not have 2 atack kill two preceed to sit in cc with 15+ guys for the rest of the game

Hmm, a dread that can handle being tied up by gaunts, I like that.
I still fear the GK dreads will end up just as worthless as the current ones are, they will probably increase in point cost towards the 170-ish mark and still be as dead when facing a missile launcher guardsman or a monstrous creature like all dreads are.

Are we sure that the 0-3 assassins thing actually relates to the big four and not a group of Death Cult assassins?

how big is the chance that multipule high importance targets there are on one battle field?

Say its a world unbelieveably tainted with chaos; there would be loads of targets wouldn't there?

[Mod Edit - We're on it.]

Guess someone watched one too many a Simpson intro.

Obvious troll is obvious. Mods alerted.

Thats more than obvious...

Since this is happening on every thread, isn't it likely Petelee's account got hacked or something? Especially since I read in another post that he was writing normal posts previously. Well, all the more reason to protect your info.

Or hes Possed by a Daemon and in his last minutes of self control came to a GK thread to get it purged. But i also wear tin foil hats so...

DA's Forever wrote:Or hes Possed by a Daemon and in his last minutes of self control came to a GK thread to get it purged. But i also wear tin foil hats so...

Be careful of saying that out loud: if Lady Gaga reads these threads, she might think it would be a cool new costume. Especially since she makes an appearance in certain other outdated books in our hobby