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Personally, I'd gladly trade the instant death out for the wounds on 2+ just to make them appear different. Though I'm sure if they became power weapons, people would be up in arms over it, despite the fact that the only other unit in the codex with power weapons as a unit are howling banshees which are pretty much useless without a farseer to support them.

I guess I just am of the belief that since Eldar is a specialized army, the units who specialize in whatever, should do their role better than a jack-of-all trades unit.

Yeah, but Warlocks (IMO) do not specialize in CC, they specialize in warmongering psychic powers.

So they need to be good in CC, but they are not Scorpions Exarchs either !

And, the Eldar being such an unusual race, I think the whole 'wound on 2+ / S9 vs. AV" definitely makes them stand out from other races.

When I read the rules of Witchblades, I just tell myself "Wow, this looks so cool!", whereby if it was a "mere" force weapon, I'd be like "Well, they are psykers, so expecedly they get force weapons. Great..."

Just my take uh, I can understand people getting upset about it, & thinking that the "lowly" pyskers of the most advanced psychic race might all wield force weapons isn't unthinkable either...

Yggdrasil wrote:Yeah, but Warlocks (IMO) do not specialize in CC, they specialize in warmongering psychic powers.

So they need to be good in CC, but they are not Scorpions Exarchs either !

And, the Eldar being such an unusual race, I think the whole 'wound on 2+ / S9 vs. AV" definitely makes them stand out from other races.

When I read the rules of Witchblades, I just tell myself "Wow, this looks so cool!", whereby if it was a "mere" force weapon, I'd be like "Well, they are psykers, so expecedly they get force weapons. Great..."

Just my take uh, I can understand people getting upset about it, & thinking that the "lowly" pyskers of the most advanced psychic race might all wield force weapons isn't unthinkable either...

Agreed. I don't expect them to out perform Scorpions, or banshees, on a melee level without the support of their psychic presence. It just feels that overall they are a bit lack luster these days. The extra base attack might be enough to counter balance that though, and just win them over with shear weight of number.
The only reason I would want Witchblades to ignore armour though, would probably be just to keep up with codex creep. But like I said, they might be able to tip the scales into their favor through shear weight of attacks. Maybe just making it so they re-roll to-hit rolls in close combat on top of the wounds on 2+/S9 instead of normal force weapons?

My biggest question, however, is: Dave, what, if anything, are you planning to do in order to balance Seer Councils in general? Are you going to move them more towards the deathstar unit they were before psychic defense became so abundant, or are you going to let them fall back to more of a force manipulator, or a mix of both?

Amanax wrote:I know it's all first draft stuff, but here is what I noticed on that sneak peak of your seer council.

Cost. It's 70 points for 2 warlocks AND a farseer, but it's 35 points to add another warlock? Yay free farseer? Though noticing the wording of the jetbike note, I am guessing they are intended to work as they do now, where they are really their own unit, but one can only be taken per farseer?

Love the fact you gave them the extra attack and plasma grenades. Now if only Witchblade rules really reflected their fluff. :(

Cheers man. They also have an additional point of leadership too btw.

I'll definitely clarify the pricing of the seer council in the finalised version, but for reference, it does state in the Farseer entry that a seer council (consisting of 2 warlocks) may be purchased for 70pts; so you'd have to buy the Farseer 1st. But yeah; I'll definitely make sure it's clear in the final version.

Personally, I don't really have a problem with Witchblades, I agree they could be better, but Str9/2+ wounding is still very good and more original than just force weapons and in-game rules notoriously weaken the fluff descriptions as it were... Maybe that's just me though, but I see what you're saying.
Cheers for the feedback man.

Viper217 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

Thanks for the feedback and the list man; unfortunately Yggsie beat you to the number. Thanks for the list. You said you played with the list; mind if I ask how it went?

It went really well, though that was more due to everything going exactly as planned and better than avg rolling. I played vs an IG player who outflanked maybe 1/2 of his stuff (spearhead deployment) so I split each vehicle off toward each of the 3 groups of enemies, the land raider going up the mid. Each transport luckily survived to reach their targets, and as I disembarked all 3 of the units of daemons came in, allowing me to assault twice or more the amount of units I would have without them. The IG folded in CC as expected and their vehicles were popped by either the dread, LR, or power fist champs. As it was an annihilate game, I ended up winning 10-2, with only 2 daemon units fully lost. It could have gone alot worse, but pretty much every essential roll worked, such as glancing front armor of the IG leman russ with land raider on approach, shaking it, or other lucky things.

I think I've played using your codex 6 times now, winning almost all of the games. I think this is due to noone in my group of 8 friends play SW, BA, GK, or DE, so while this codex seems to be balanced vs those (as it should be I think) it is very strong at exploiting the weaknesses of older codexes. It has lots of mobility to catch tau, enough CC to beat orks straight up, and enough shooting to at least give a solid chance vs IG. The sheer variety of units in the codex (which is by far its best asset, including legion rules in that variety) lets you adapt your list to fight any opponent, or make a great all-comers list.

I am really enjoying using the codex, I don't ever plan on using the 'normal' CSM dex unless I am forced now. Playing fluffy, competitive, and fun lists all at the same time is too awesome to stop. Keep up the great work Dave, and I will definitely tell my eldar playing friend about your work in progress codex!

Thanks for the kind words man - it's really appreciated - and thanks for the in-game feedback too! I can see what you're saying about the game vs/ IG, and if he reserves his units like that it could really reduce the amount of shooting he can put out, allowing even more of your units to arrive intact IMHO. That's the problem I'm finding is that many of the play-test games have had external influences, like weak lists or good rolling which can affect the feedback.
I agree though, I would love to hear about how it goes vs. the new 'dexs.
Thanks for the feedback!

On that note, IF ANYONE COULD PLAYTEST A GAME VS. A NEWER, MORE COMPETITIVE CODEX OR ENVIRONMENT, SUCH AS AGAINST GREY KNIGHTS/ SPACE WOLVES/ COMPETITIVE LISTS, THAT'D BE REALLY APPRECIATED. THANKS.

Yggdrasil wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I agree, it's really not a WAAC list! However, I'll take '7' on account of you being the 1st

respondent!

Well, what's wrong with it ? It has cheap Troops for holding objectives (Heretics & Daemons), some resilient Plague

Marines to carry the fight to the enemy, some mobile AT units (Termicide, melta bikers, Oblits), some anti-horde

stuff (Chaos Sorcerer w/ Nurgle's Rot - S4 might be a bit too powerful, btw?, Hellfire

Predator, Defiler)...

Is that because I didn't include the "mandatory" Lash Prince ?

Not quite that man! Heck, you couldn't really do that anyway! I think the problem with it from a WAAC perspective is that it's not too focussed and includes a bit of everything rather than specialising at all. It's a nice list, honestly, but I don't think it's the most competitive out there!

Nurgles Rot is Str4 as in it's current incarnation it's seen as a bit 'weak', whilst it's worth more now - i.e. it's effectively undergone a price increase - so I upped the strength to make it a bit better all-round.

Also the sneak peak doesn't show what's special with upgrading Warlocks for Spiritseer or Warseer. Should they deserve a specific statline ? Or specific gear / psychic powers / rules?

I am intrigued...

Such is the point of a sneak-peak Yggsie!

Amanax wrote:My biggest question, however, is: Dave, what, if anything, are you planning to do in order to balance Seer Councils in general? Are you going to move them more towards the deathstar unit they were before psychic defense became so abundant, or are you going to let them fall back to more of a force manipulator, or a mix of both?

Well, the Seer Council ultimately fulfils a role of both IMHO. The Farseer itself is a force-multiplier, however Warlocks are not unless leading a squad. If warlocks could affect units outside of their own they'd probably be a bit too good IMHO.
As you noticed, they pack more of a punch individually now, but a seer council would probably still form an anchor/heart type role within the force, as both a hard-unit/deathstar-light and a force-multiplier.
I don't think this role(s) is necessarily wrong IMHO, nor would it be an easy thing to change...

Well you officially have me curious Dave. I have often pondered on what will happen with the next codex to help fix the jumbled HQ choices and broken units of the currant dex.

Though, I find I have to ask, have you read Path of the Warrior and / or Path of the Seer, and if so, are they influencing any of the changes you'll be making for your Fandex?

that's good to hear man, these teasers were supposed to spark curiosity! Hopefully I my fandex will prove satisfactory at solving any qualms with the current 'dex...

I finished Path of the Seer just last night, and will probably re-read Path of the Warrior soon; so yes, I have read them!
As to any influence they may have, you have already glimpsed a few pieces of wargear inspired by the latest book - as well as the runes in general - whilst the Crystalline Armour (mentioned on the Autarch preview) linked to a brief mention - I'm not going to say what - of some fellows within Path of the Warrior. There you go, some fairly subtle hints for you!
Ultimately however, I don't think they've influenced me that much, or as much as I thought they would before I read them, although I was sure to pick them up for any additional insight and inspiration...

Thanks for the (great) question Amanax, cheers man!

Fair enough. Still can't wait.

Any ETA on when you will be getting the first draft completed? I'm ready to start test playing already

I don't know why I didn't read this Codex before, but I have now and its great! Thank you for making it!

LoneLictor wrote:I don't know why I didn't read this Codex before, but I have now and its great! Thank you for making it!

Cheers man, much appreciated!

Amanax wrote:Fair enough. Still can't wait.

Any ETA on when you will be getting the first draft completed? I'm ready to start test playing already

Ha! Well, all the units are pretty much done, so that leaves the wargear/special rules sections and going over all the units again (and again) before it's done; honestly, don't expect it within the month.

---------

Going to make a couple of Tzeentch-based changes:
- Ahriman will no longer auto-cast, but will instead be able to re-roll a single D6 for any psychic test. As no-one else auto-casts and it may be too powerful.
- Inferno Bolts will (probably) not receive negative modifiers on the damage table for glancing hits. As Rubric Marines need a bit of a boost against tanks, but it still wouldn't affect anything more than AV10.

The biggest fault I'm finding with this codex is....

I can't find anyone who'll let me play them with it :*(

samus i know what you mean none of tyhe regulars i play with will even consider iti might be able to hoodwoink some one with it eventually

Samus_aran115 wrote:The biggest fault I'm finding with this codex is....

I can't find anyone who'll let me play them with it :*(

alabamaheretic wrote:samus i know what you mean none of tyhe regulars i play with will even consider iti might be able to hoodwoink some one with it eventually

Man, you guys have a rough crowd of gamers. I know myself and any of my friends would be cool with, well, just about anything so long as it was just a friendly game and it wasn't totally over the top. At one point we were even doing an ongoing campaign type thing where we were making our own characters based off of an experience gain system. Some of those ended up borderline overpowered, yet we still had fun.

Maybe look into hooking up with some other Dakkanauts through Vassal to get some games going? It's not perfect, but better than nothing.

I tried play testing the Land Raider Marauder yesterday.....unfortunately it got popped in the second shot of turn one and i didn't even get to move it!




The first shot of turn one killed my Brass Scorpion.....HORRIBLE game.

Looking over some of the comments above, I would be willing to test and play against this codex on vassal (so far I haven't found anyone to ask) but shoot me a PM sometime if you want a test game, and I would be happy to play you.

whats vassal

Vassal is a program designed for table top wargaming. You download vassal and the appropriate rules plugins, and you can play that game over the internet, or on your computer. Its kinda clunky, but it gets the job done.

Competition-type-thing-time again!

For another preview of the upcoming Eldar Codex, could someone please pick me any number between 3 & 34 (including 3 & 34).
One person who does this, alongside posting a 1850pts Chaos Space Marine army with the Icon of the Alpha Legion, will have their number chosen for the next preview.
Ze 'closing date' is Friday (21st October).

Cheers! Dave.


--------

Also, I am also working on another project (again for proposed rules), titled Chapta Approved...

--------

Samus_aran115 wrote:The biggest fault I'm finding with this codex is....

I can't find anyone who'll let me play them with it :*(

alabamaheretic wrote:samus i know what you mean none of tyhe regulars i play with will even consider iti might be able to hoodwoink some one with it eventually

That is a bugger. Have you tried giving them a copy of the 'dex itself for them to look at and see it for themselves? You could always refer them to myself or the positive comments in my sig if they need convincing...

Praxiss wrote:I tried play testing the Land Raider Marauder yesterday.....unfortunately it got popped in the second shot of turn one and i didn't even get to move it!

Glad to see the play-testing went well!
At the very least they surely liked your model!

Lord Magnus wrote:Looking over some of the comments above, I would be willing to test and play against this codex on vassal (so far I haven't found anyone to ask) but shoot me a PM sometime if you want a test game, and I would be happy to play you.

That'd be great! If you do so, please let me know how it goes! Cheers!

Soo about his thousand sons cant have bikers thing. I think it is kinda limiting in a unnessesary way. Your argument is that i doesent fit the fluff perfectly, but i still think that about 1k sons having bikers,

Just Dave wrote:It doesn't fit the fluff perfectly, I fully admit, but it doesn't exactly contradict it IMHO.

Wait... Where have I heard that before? And 1k sons also represent all tzench warbands, soo. There are also some others simlar limitations wich are a tad unnessesary and i think you should get rid of (OFC all limitarions like no khorne sorcerers arent bad) but some seem unecesary as they dont counterdict the fluff and build mostly on assumtions and the fact that there are no records about them.

Anyway, great fandex and i will defenetly play the Eldar ( but i cant play the chaos one scince i dont play chaos) fandex when it comes out!

Competition-type-thing-time again!

For another preview of the upcoming Eldar Codex, could someone please pick me any number between 3 & 34 (including 3 & 34).
One person who does this, alongside posting a 1850pts Chaos Space Marine army with the Icon of the Alpha Legion, will have their number chosen for the next preview.
Ze 'closing date' is Friday (21st October).

Cheers! Dave.

MrTau wrote: Soo about his thousand sons cant have bikers thing. I think it is kinda limiting in a unnessesary way. Your argument is that i doesent fit the fluff perfectly, but i still think that about 1k sons having bikers,

Just Dave wrote:It doesn't fit the fluff perfectly, I fully admit, but it doesn't exactly contradict it IMHO.

Wait... Where have I heard that before? And 1k sons also represent all tzench warbands, soo. There are also some others simlar limitations wich are a tad unnessesary and i think you should get rid of (OFC all limitarions like no khorne sorcerers arent bad) but some seem unecesary as they dont counterdict the fluff and build mostly on assumtions and the fact that there are no records about them.

Anyway, great fandex and i will defenetly play the Eldar ( but i cant play the chaos one scince i dont play chaos) fandex when it comes out!

Thanks man, appreciated.

Regarding the Thousand Sons thing; a single unit-restriction was imposed upon all of the god-specific Legions in order to counter their otherwise more-numerous bonuses, that it restricts a single unit doesn't make it overwhelming IMHO, whilst these are also units that were infrequent in appearance anyways. Someone asked me about this before, asking "And why do the warbands have such arbitrary restrictions? No bikers for Tzeentch? No Vindicators for Slaanesh? Where's the fluff behind those, or did each legion just HAVE to have something they can't bring?", to which I responded: "Both. Have you ever heard of The Thousand Sons using Bikers? Can you imagine when they were taken from prospero by Tzeentch he took their bikes with them too? It's seemingly unheard of in the fluff and doesn't suit their playstyle.
Vindicators are a very blunt, crude instrument. Slaanesh and the Emperors children appear to prefer grace and flow; enjoying the pleasure and delicacy of an enemy being methodically picked apart, rather than smashed into pieces. Quite simply a Vindicator doesn't appear to suit Slaanesh or the Emperors Children. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong. "

I wasn't corrected.
Ultimately, I believe the same answer applies for your query; it doesn't exactly limit them in gameplay, nor does it oppose the fluff. Think of all the retcons encountered with codices, this wouldn't even register on such a radar IMHO and I believe, that yes, it doesn't contradict the fluff, whilst it may or may not be a perfect fit...
So yes, that was my reasoning behind it; mainly for balance, but the change is very reasonable within the 40K background IMHO.

23

****HQ - 275****
Lord Valinhurst
- Icon of the Alpha Legion

****Troops - 1205****
5x Chosen Chaos Space Marines (250)
(Infiltrate)
- Aspiring Champion
- - Powerfist
- 5x Meltagun
- Mark of Chaos Undivided
- Dedicated Rhino
- - Open-topped

5x Chosen Chaos Space Marines (250)
(Infiltrate)
- Aspiring Champion
- - Powerfist
- 5x Meltagun
- Mark of Chaos Undivided
- Dedicated Rhino
- - Open-topped

5x Chosen Chaos Space Marines (240)
(Infiltrate)
- 5x Plasmaguns
- Mark of Chaos Undivided
- Dedicated Rhino
- - Open-topped

10x Operatives (155)
- 2x Plasma guns
- Heavy Weapon team w/ Auto-cannon
- Dedicated Rhino

10x Operatives (155)
- 2x Plasma guns
- Heavy Weapon team w/ Auto-cannon
- Dedicated Rhino

10x Operatives (155)
- 2x Plasma guns
- Heavy Weapon team w/ Auto-cannon
- Dedicated Rhino

****Elites - 360****
9x Possessed Chaos Space Marines (360)
- Champion
- Mark of Chaos Undivided
- Dedicated Rhino
- - Open-Topped
- - Daemon Possession

Total = 1840

Probably would fail, but that'd be a hell of a lot of fun to play XD

Hm, nice codex.

Amanax wrote:23

That will be Swooping Hawks...

Ogryn wrote:Hm, nice codex.

Umm... Thanks?

Just Dave wrote:

Amanax wrote:23

That will be Swooping Hawks...

Ogryn wrote:Hm, nice codex.

Umm... Thanks?

You don't sound so pleased I chose them

Just curious though Dave, I'm at work right now so I don't have your codex in front of me. Do you have an HQ that has infiltrate, or one that can be granted infiltrate through Alpha Legion sillyness? If so, a pure outflank army could be interesting.

Sorry, *ahem*...

That is Swooping Hawks!

That better man?
Seriously though, I'm not disappointed, just informing you who your choice would be. Admittedly, there's not really anything new that can be shown off with the Hawks, but it's all the luck of the draw man!

Regarding Infiltrating Characters? No. There is not. There's several deepstriking options though or Steeds/Bikes/Jump Packs which could compensate...

Really? No answer for how to make hawks worth while? :(

I was looking forward to the hawks to see your answer for them.

Too bad about the infiltration, normal reserves will have to do then ^^

I'm posting my ultra spammy Alpha Legion list mainly because I don't want to see swooping hawks . Comes out to 1850 on the dot.

I will choose #3 since I want to see more about the HQ choices (hopefully they are near the front)

Chaos Sorcerer
-Icon of the Alpha Legion
-Chaos Theory
-Visions of Chaos
-Chaos Armor

Chaos Dreadnought
-TL autocannon
-TL autocannon
Chaos Dreadnought
-TL autocannon
-TL autocannon
Chaos Dreadnought
-TL autocannon
-TL autocannon

Chosenx5
-Meltagunx2
-Infiltrate
-Chaos Rhino
Chosenx5
-Meltagunx2
-Infiltrate
-Chaos Rhino
Chosenx5
-Meltagunx2
-Infiltrate
-Chaos Rhino
Chosenx5
-Meltagunx2
-Infiltrate
-Chaos Rhino
Chosenx5
-Flamerx2
-Infiltrate
-Chaos Rhino
Chosenx5
-Flamerx2
-Infiltrate
-Chaos Rhino

Chaos Predator
-TL HB sponsons
Chaos Predator
-TL HB sponsons
Chaos Predator
-TL HB sponsons

So... many... autocannons...

Amanax wrote:Really? No answer for how to make hawks worth while? :(

I was looking forward to the hawks to see your answer for them.

Oh no, of course I'm intending to 'solve' the Hawks, but it's not necessarily going to be evident from that 1 page...
Of course I'm hoping for every unit in the 'dex to be worthwhile.

Hurricane wrote:I'm posting my ultra spammy Alpha Legion list mainly because I don't want to see swooping hawks . Comes out to 1850 on the dot.

I will choose #3 since I want to see more about the HQ choices (hopefully they are near the front)

Aaah, put some thought into that one? Clever...
That is Phoenix Lords Page 1.

Oooh, Phoenix Lords. I'm also interested in those. Now I don't care which one gets previewed XD

Ah now I feel bad heheh. I enjoy playing really spammy lists, so I decided to make another one that is more Alpha Legioney while maintaining a style of play I would enjoy. Same number as before though please.


Chaos Lord
--Icon of the Alpha Legion
--Alpha Lord
--Chaos Space Marine Bike
--Power Fist
--Chaos Armor
--Mark of Khorne

Chosenx8 (infiltrate)
--Meltagunx4
Chosenx8 (infiltrate)
--Meltagunx4
Chosenx8 (infiltrate)
--Meltagunx4

Operativesx10
--Flamerx2
--Aspiring Champion
----Combi-Melta
Operativesx10
--Flamerx2
--Aspiring Champion
----Combi-Melta
Operativesx10
--Flamerx2
--Aspiring Champion
----Combi-Melta
Operativesx10
--Flamerx2
--Aspiring Champion
----Combi-Melta
Operativesx10
--Flamerx2
--Aspiring Champion
----Combi-Melta
Operativesx10
--Flamerx2
--Aspiring Champion
----Combi-Melta

Chaos Bikersx9
--Meltagunx3
--Mark of Nurgle
--Aspiring Champion
--6 CC weapons instead of bolt pistols

Everything infiltrates as far forward as possible while maintaining cover and sticking to one side of the opponents army. Use Alpha Lord to reposition chosen based upon where I want to hit the enemy hard (It said chosen MAY be taken as a troop choice with infiltrate so I kept them as elites). I thought a giant CC force would be really fun to plow through the enemy. T6 bikers and a super killy lord sounds fun to me. Comes out to 1847.