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Personally I post in terms of the overall lore (TT rulebook/army books, FFG, BL, etc), with a general disrespect towards most space marine based black library books (which are almost invariably poorly written with a few shining gems that are worth referencing).

Just curious Melissia, what books would those be?

Melissia wrote:Personally I post in terms of the overall lore (TT rulebook/army books, FFG, BL, etc), with a general disrespect towards most space marine based black library books (which are almost invariably poorly written with a few shining gems that are worth referencing).

What would you say are these shining gems? I've saved up a considerable amount of money with the interest is building a Grey Knights force and generally expanding by knowledge of the fluff through various books and other sources. I've ordered a bunch of Imperial Armoury books so far, would you say the Deathwatch rule-book and expansions are worth it for the game and the background?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Just curious Melissia, what books would those be?

Any where Astartes die in the thousands.

She really hates them because they make her Sisters look bad.

iproxtaco wrote:

Melissia wrote:Personally I post in terms of the overall lore (TT rulebook/army books, FFG, BL, etc), with a general disrespect towards most space marine based black library books (which are almost invariably poorly written with a few shining gems that are worth referencing).

What would you say are these shining gems? I've saved up a considerable amount of money with the interest is building a Grey Knights force and generally expanding by knowledge of the fluff through various books and other sources. I've ordered a bunch of Imperial Armoury books so far, would you say the Deathwatch rule-book and expansions are worth it for the game and the background?

Oh yes, the Deathwatch RPG is itself quite well written. I also recommend the Grey Knight omnibus, which is decently written as well.

I disagree with FFG's position on Sororitas power armor and bolters (although I accept that it was intended to be a supplement to Dark Heresy rather than Deathwatch, which justifies the numbers somewhat), but aside from that and a few other nitpicky details FFG's material is generally quite well written.

The Grey Knight Omnibus is terrible. Ben Counter is a bad writer and should feel bad for what he's written.

It seems to be a rather polarizing book. Personally I thought it was okay (at the very least, better than many other BL books I've read, but that's a low standard to begin with), but a lot of people either love it or loathe it.

As someone who likes Dan Abnett's books and Aaron Dembski-Bowden's books, and hell I even liked the two DA books from the Horus Heresy--I don't like the Grey Knights books.

On termi teleporters:

Not really. Termies teleporting around the battlefield are a peculiarity of Dawn of War. In mainstream 40k they do not have personal teleporters. AFAIK the only space marines to have personal teleporters at all in 40k are Grey Knights, who do not use them on their termies.

On GW: frankly, fluff changes all the time, and GW as a for profit business owned by stockholders would drop the Imperium like a bad transmission if they decided there was more profit to be had elsewhere.




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1hadhq wrote:No, wouldn't say they are not 40k.

You're correct they may be closer to the background of 40k., but I cannot be sure as I am just into tabletop nowadays.

How many RPG players are posting in such threads? Assumed most dakkanauts in this thread thought in tabletop terms.

LOL Let's just say I think in terms of the RPG rather frequently.


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Kanluwen wrote:The Grey Knight Omnibus is terrible. Ben Counter is a bad writer and should feel bad for what he's written.

It's positively Shakespeare compared to M. Ward. But let's let this one drop before it goes wildly off topic.

Then why mention it at all? Rollin, rollin, rollin ', through the streams are swollen, keep that wagon rollliinnng oooonnnn!


Thank you for the suggestion, for whatever reason, the Grey Knights books never crossed my mind. What other Space Marine books stand out from the crowd? Graham McNeil's stuff is at least well written and accurate, if Uriel and his fellows are presented as morons. What about the Deathwatch expansions? Do they add much on to the core book?

Sorry for taking this off-topic but I thought I'd ask whilst I had the opportunity.

What about experience. In this hypothetical between the BT and the Tau, what role will simple experience play. SM have hundreds of years experience well the tau have a average lifespan of 40 years. That has got to play a role in any conflict between the two.

Depends on how much experience the Tau have fighting the Templars. After Nimbosa, the BT have at least some, but since Tau lifetimes are very short, the only thing they have to go on is documents and records from the time.

1hadhq wrote:

agnosto wrote:
In any event, it doesn't really matter to me because it's primarily a game to me and though, in game, my suits kill terminates fairly easily they are nowhere near as sturdy....unless there's some handy terrain nearby to hide behind.

In game, youre shooting infantry with anti-tank, if you please...

And no one is as sturdy as fluff can paint him/her, cause we get ( more often than not ) balanced rules.

A plasma rifle is anti-tank? Well, maybe if I'm getting rear shots since it's only S6...

Yeah, fluff is an entirely different animal but since this thread has been on fluff-based discussion for quite some time...

The other problem is the Templar's tendency toward hand to hand combat and how much will that be a liability and how much a strength?

Sure in close quarters they tear the Tau apart. In the open countryside, though...

Most Tau planets aren't open countryside. They're built-up population centers with open countryside on the outskirts.

So the Tau will have the choice of pulling their forces into the countryside and hoping to bait the Templars out there--or defending the cities and risk being overrun.

iproxtaco wrote:Depends on how much experience the Tau have fighting the Templars. After Nimbosa, the BT have at least some, but since Tau lifetimes are very short, the only thing they have to go on is documents and records from the time.

I would assume they have some kind of simulators they can plug their people into and let them replay old battle files. The SM have something like this, or they did way back in the old PS space hulk game.

The city would offer more protection. In a wide open area, the Templars will drop right in top of them, or occupy the city in their absence.

iproxtaco wrote:The city would offer more protection. In a wide open area, the Templars will drop right in top of them, or occupy the city in their absence.

And in a city the Templars can drop right on top of them as well.

That cuts down the Tau's ability to flee, as well as drastically hurting their 'sheer firepower' part.

In the open?

The Emperor protects.

Maybe just a 6+ invul granted...

40k promotes CloseCombat so much, its unlikely to have 100 % success in ranged combat.
And there are these trainees ( meatshields )

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Depends on how much experience the Tau have fighting the Templars. After Nimbosa, the BT have at least some, but since Tau lifetimes are very short, the only thing they have to go on is documents and records from the time.

I would assume they have some kind of simulators they can plug their people into and let them replay old battle files. The SM have something like this, or they did way back in the old PS space hulk game.

Actually doing something will always beat a simulation. If the Templars decided to attack, they would employ those who have fought the Tau before to lead the attack or advise the commanders.

Kanluwen wrote:Most Tau planets aren't open countryside. They're built-up population centers with open countryside on the outskirts.

So the Tau will have the choice of pulling their forces into the countryside and hoping to bait the Templars out there--or defending the cities and risk being overrun.

We know what they would do in this case. The codex says that the tau don't defend territory. They leave and then come back when they have the advantage.

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The city would offer more protection. In a wide open area, the Templars will drop right in top of them, or occupy the city in their absence.

And in a city the Templars can drop right on top of them as well.

That cuts down the Tau's ability to flee, as well as drastically hurting their 'sheer firepower' part.

But there's still a lot less room to drop inside a city, and buildings will offer a relative amount of protection from orbital and atmospheric assets.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Most Tau planets aren't open countryside. They're built-up population centers with open countryside on the outskirts.

So the Tau will have the choice of pulling their forces into the countryside and hoping to bait the Templars out there--or defending the cities and risk being overrun.

We know what they would do in this case. The codex says that the tau don't defend territory. They leave and then come back when they have the advantage.

Then their populations get butchered and the Templars occupy the territory.

Iproxtaco wrote:But there's still a lot less room to drop inside a city, and buildings will offer a relative amount of protection from orbital and atmospheric assets.

Er. Buildings won't offer a lot of protection from orbital strikes. Nor will a city necessarily offer a lot of protection from drops, since pods can smash through buildings.

Kanluwen wrote:Most Tau planets aren't open countryside. They're built-up population centers with open countryside on the outskirts.

So the Tau will have the choice of pulling their forces into the countryside and hoping to bait the Templars out there--or defending the cities and risk being overrun.

Actually, of the septs outside of T'au itself, only Sa'cea and the formerly human world of the Vel'kan Sept fit that description. Remember that Tau worlds tend toward self sufficiency, so large scale urbanisation would reduce that. Further, it's flat out stated, IIRC in Cities of Death, that the Tau tend to eschew city fighting were possible, and when forced to defend a city, general treat it in the same manner they treat fighting in canyons.

There do seem to be some incongruities between the Tau in Codex: Tau/Empire and the Tau in Deathwatch, I've noticed.


You're also assuming that Battlebarges, which are interior even to Tau battleships, will be able to drive off any defenders in order to effect a bombardment.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Most Tau planets aren't open countryside. They're built-up population centers with open countryside on the outskirts.

So the Tau will have the choice of pulling their forces into the countryside and hoping to bait the Templars out there--or defending the cities and risk being overrun.

We know what they would do in this case. The codex says that the tau don't defend territory. They leave and then come back when they have the advantage.

Then their populations get butchered and the Templars occupy the territory.

Iproxtaco wrote:But there's still a lot less room to drop inside a city, and buildings will offer a relative amount of protection from orbital and atmospheric assets.

Er. Buildings won't offer a lot of protection from orbital strikes. Nor will a city necessarily offer a lot of protection from drops, since pods can smash through buildings.

They fly away on jetpacks . Ya it dosen't make a whole lot of sense, but that is what their codex says. That's why I don't think the Tau have large citys outside of sept worlds. I guess it's not official, but I picture the tau having small villages where all the important stuff it attached to drones. In the event of an attack, everyone just leaves to be replaced by combat troops.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Most Tau planets aren't open countryside. They're built-up population centers with open countryside on the outskirts.

So the Tau will have the choice of pulling their forces into the countryside and hoping to bait the Templars out there--or defending the cities and risk being overrun.

Actually, of the septs outside of T'au itself, only Sa'cea and the formerly human world of the Vel'kan Sept fit that description. Remember that Tau worlds tend toward self sufficiency, so large scale urbanisation would reduce that. Further, it's flat out stated, IIRC in Cities of Death, that the Tau tend to eschew city fighting were possible, and when forced to defend a city, general treat it in the same manner they treat fighting in canyons.

I'm not saying they don't have open countryside or agricultural centers. But they're not going to be huge swathes of farmland all around the planet.

There do seem to be some incongruities between the Tau in Codex: Tau/Empire and the Tau in Deathwatch, I've noticed.

Eh. That tends to happen when one is being written to revise the fluff of something that hasn't really been changed since its release.

You're also assuming that Battlebarges, which are interior even to Tau battleships, will be able to drive off any defenders in order to effect a bombardment.

You're assuming that a Tau defensive fleet will have battleships or a Battlebarge can't withstand the defenders' salvos long enough to affect an Exterminatus level of bombardment or a simple lance strike.

Terminator armor does contain a Teliport beacon.

the DoW teliportation is unrealistic though.


what would really happen is the Terminators would teliport back to the Strike Cruiser or Battlebarge,

then they would teliport back to a new position.

it isn't feasable in the table top game for Terminators to do that for reasons of Balance and the Computer game simply wished to speed things up.

Grey Templar wrote:the DoW teliportation is unrealistic though.


what would really happen is the Terminators would teliport back to the Strike Cruiser or Battlebarge,

then they would teliport back to a new position.

You mean like in DoW2?

Melissia wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the DoW teliportation is unrealistic though.


what would really happen is the Terminators would teliport back to the Strike Cruiser or Battlebarge,

then they would teliport back to a new position.

You mean like in DoW2?

there was Teliportation in the 1st DoW as well.

it is an ability Terminators have that is basically the same range as Assault Marine Jump packs.


basically, the 2 games had the same effect which is slightly incorrect. if the time was increased between exiting and reappearing to like a minute then it would be plausable.

Kanluwen wrote:
You're assuming that a Tau defensive fleet will have battleships or a Battlebarge can't withstand the defenders' salvos long enough to affect an Exterminatus level of bombardment or a simple lance strike.

Battlebarges don't have lances (and you would not believe the shitstorm over the single attempt they made to give a BB lances). They use BCs to effect large scale devastation, but they're inaccurate.

And, against Tau, it's not weapon salvos, it's bombers and torpedoes, both of which are tremendously effective compared to the Imperial version, and both of which can be launched not just from ships but from the planet itself.

Further, space marine ships are generally limited to very, very short range weapons, with the exception of one offs such as Venerable Battlebarges and Fortress Monastaries, which tend to predate the proscription against Space Marines having powerful anti-ship capabilities.




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Grey Templar wrote:Terminator armor does contain a Teliport beacon.

the DoW teliportation is unrealistic though.


what would really happen is the Terminators would teliport back to the Strike Cruiser or Battlebarge,

then they would teliport back to a new position.

it isn't feasable in the table top game for Terminators to do that for reasons of Balance and the Computer game simply wished to speed things up.

The problems there are two fold: the teleport beacon already has to be at the location, otherwise they scatter as normal. So if they wanted to teleport to close with a target, then whoever has the beacon would still have to close with the target on foot while everyone else teleports.

Two, teleporters have something like a half hour recharge on starships. So it may be a while...