Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Kanluwen wrote:
Seeker Missiles aren't JDAMs or GPS guided bombs. They require the coordinates to be 'marked', triggering the drone brain to activate.

And I said nothing about Preysight. It'd be useful, but the Astartes have just as capable infiltrators and recon units in the form of their Scouts.

You're under-estimating the area they're searching. Cities are really big, and space marines hve a finite number of scouts. No matter how good they are, they can only really check out the most likely spots.

Kanluwen wrote:
You're discounting them firing. They need to 'brace' properly, and the recoil would be what's going to cause structural defects.

We don't know enough about the inner workings of Tau mag propulsion weapons to make that argument. Depending on how they work and how large the actual projectile is, the recoil could be huge. Or nearly non-existant. I would suggest thathte recaoil is actually farly light due to the length of the barrel (longer barrel in gauss weapons = slower accelleration = lower recoil. Usually)

Kanluwen wrote:

Which is why you don't run straight through shouting "WEEE!".

You ram the corners of the building.

And now that's the direction the building will most likely fall in. Gravity. Like Payback, it's a Bitch.

iproxtaco wrote:This is not an normal tank though. ITS A LAND RAIDER.

Firstly, it's off before the building completely falls on it.
Secondly, it could probably hold the massive amount of weight.
Thirdly, Kanwulen is talking about knocking out the corners. The majority of the buildings mass will not fall on the Land Raider even if it stays still.

Somehow, I doubt gravity cares much what it's called.

Assuming that you don't lose a tred or damage a drive wheel ramming the building, you will not be able to accelerate away fast enough to avoid the building falling. No matter what you may have seen in movies. Two, you fail to grasp the kind of massive weight a building has. 5k cubic feet of granite facing alone weighs almost 400 tonnes, or four times the weight of the landraider. And that's falling on it from a height.

Thirdly, it doesn't have to have the whole mass of the building fall on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
look at this link

i clearly see Rail guns mentioned as being standard armament.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Weapons_Batteries

On Tau ships they are. You might notice that a few eldar weapons are scattered in there too. It's talking about 'weapon batteries' which as it says, in BFG is a catch all term for a certain class of starship weapon, much as Heavy, Assault, Blast, are in 40k.

Nerivant wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's probably it. The Tau have created their railguns from scratch. The Mechanicum just know how to make ship-borne ones probably due to some old document or STC they've found. Understanding Tau tech will likely help the sane members help the Imperium as a whole.

If anything, the Tau agricultural tech might lead to a bit of improvement into the lives of the average Imperium citizen.

I think it's also a case of improvement vs. innovation. Humanity is more likely to work on upgrading a current technology, and the Tau are more likely to develop a new technology.

Good observation. The Imperium has many better technologies that are more advanced, but the Tau will invent new things all the time, like Ion cannons and drones. The Imperium would never even consider it on a large scale but they should invest more in imitating their enemies, rather than leaving it up to the Mechanicum to do hoard all their tech.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Which raises the question: 'Why not walk/drive away from the Terminator?' Since they can't run or dodge. Which means outside of a turn based table top game, they're useless against tanks or armored vehicles, since those tend to move at a fairly good clip in combat. Sure, if it's parked the Termi works well...

Given the Terminator's speed, the crisis suit would have to stand there and let them close.

Ahem, personal teleporter....

Fixed...

Anyway why are you still stuck to the topic. BT would lose but not before dealing serious blow to the several Tau septs.
Imperium tech is not that much better than a Tau when it comes to some things, but they compensate with manpower and using covers.
Tau are smart to, they know they cannot win against Imperium in the long run so they are playing tactic " we give them idea, and if they accept it we will help them defend".
In the end nothing really matters, they will never advance the storyline. Or they would but thing will be focused on the Emperor's death and the star child theory. While Tau will seat on their end of the Galaxy, not knowing that universe may end that day.
And even if they advance, Tau would probably gain more worlds - they Tyranids and Imperial would attack it at the same time. And in the end they would retreat to the original 26 septs barely surviving the Tyranid incursion. But they would never get destroyed because of one thing - GW. Tau are just to awesome to do that, they have nice background, good ideals and excellent tactics.

And the main reason people are hating Tau is not because the Tau itself - it's because of a people. They are almost all like: "Look at me, I have a rail rifle. I can totally blow up that Battleship from orbit" or "Look at me , I got a pulse rifle, I can totally stand up all night and shot down all that 1 million Guardsman that outnumber me" and that kind of stuff.
But in the end, we know that Imperium is still the strongest and it will always be. And here is one reason why:



Notice the Imperial eagle in headline? IoM is the heart of Warhammer 40000, and always will be. Even in fluff, it's matter now how many fire they throw at the Imperium. GW writers always find a way to present victory to it.

iproxtaco wrote:
Good observation. The Imperium has many better technologies that are more advanced, but the Tau will invent new things all the time, like Ion cannons and drones. The Imperium would never even consider it on a large scale but they should invest more in imitating their enemies, rather than leaving it up to the Mechanicum to do hoard all their tech.

I think you guys are forgeting a key point: IoM has forgotten the principals behind thier own technology. So they'ed want the Tau's because someone else has already done the work of creating a man portable version.

And, Two, he misread that, it's talking about weapon batteries from all sorts of races, it just mentions that the Imperium studs their ships with guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

Ahem, personal teleporters that Terminators can't use....

Fixed.

Although being a tau loyalist, i'd have to say quite fast. The only reason they are not extinct yet is because the warp saved them from the imperium's might while they just discovered fire.

daemon wrote:Although being a tau loyalist, i'd have to say quite fast. The only reason they are not extinct yet is because the warp saved them from the imperium's might while they just discovered fire.

Or the Eldar. Or the Emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:
But in the end, we know that Imperium is still the strongest and it will always be. And here is one reason why:

GW writers always find a way to present victory to it as long as Space Marines outsell other minis and as soon as they don't, 40k will be about whatever is selling best now.

Fixed.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Ahem, personal teleporters that Terminators use quite freqvently....

Fixed...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:
But in the end, we know that Imperium is still the strongest and it will always be. And here is one reason why:

GW writers always find a way to present victory to it because Imperium of Man is the center of Warhammer 40000 in the game as well in the background.

Fixed to.....

You must pay atention to what are you write...

What's your point Brother Coa? We know that GW concentrates on the Imperium, but this ENTIRE thread is HYPOTHETICAL. This is not likely going to happen and is not happening now, but we're debating it like it is, else there would be discussion.

My point is that Tau would be defeated if we launch a full Crusade force against it.
But that will never happened because GW won't allow it...
There is no point in debating "we would win" or "they would win" because each side is supporting it's own...
In the end, it's GW who will have the last laugh...

Why is there no point? Arguments arise because people want to try and persuade the other side, I enjoy arguments like this, especially about the stuff I'm in to. Does that mean there's no point in any argument or debate?

Again, this is HYPOTHETICAL.

Here's a point, I've revised my position and changed my opinions. Clearly the argument has a point.

Without sufficient back-up from Guard Regiments, a large number of IN ships and a large number of Titans, more than just Warhounds, and actual SUPPORT to not become over-drawn, The Black Templars would fail. Given enough help, then yes, they could, but not by themselves, not the whole empire anyway.

BaronIveagh wrote:Kill Ships: It should be pointed out that kill ships themselves are tech heresy, no one seems know where they came from, who built them, and the Imperium is terrified that the Tau will take one intact. Oh, and they have only ever been mentioned in the Jericho reach.

The same way that the new Tau drives are only mentioned in the BFG FAQ you referenced? Besides, why would it be tech heresy? It's not like they're sentient. I'll give you the "terrified to lose one" part though, the loss of a DAoT relic wouldn't be very well recieved.

im2randomghgh wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:the Imperium of Man, Dark Eldar, hell even the ORKS have better tech than the Tau.

No, they don't. Tau seem to be the only people in the galaxy who have realised that "oo, plasma guns kill you sometimes, maybe we should fix ours so they dont do that".

The Imperium knows, but doesn't care. They trade power for risk. Manpower can be replaced. And you conveniently left out the part about Imperial plasma being more powerful than the Tau equivalent.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
So it's heavier, bulkier, clumsier, requires a massive jetpack to move at any reasonable rate, provides inferior protection, and yet is supposed to be more advanced? Imperial tech is all from a period of human history that makes the stagnating, slow to adapt Tau look like chimpanzees who've just discovered that a stick can be used to fish for termites. The lowest piece of Imperial technology is more advanced than anything the Tau will ever conceive of, considering that everything down the common lasgun has a "machine spirit" capable of self-repair if it's so much as asked nicely in the right language.

Um... you need to put the obscura pipe down if you think the lasgun is self repairing.

Every piece of Imperial tech has a machine spirit in it. A techpriest can repair something by asking it nicely to fix itself (or, more reasonably, telling it how to repair itself).

Actually, the tau crisis suit is much more nimble then the Terminator suit, has superior firepower, superior ammunition storage, is faster, and lacks the penalties to dexterity that the Termiator armor suffers from. The Terminator offers superior protection, but at the cost of being a standing target.

And that's despite the tau suit being bulkier.

I'm not sure where you're getting the terminator bit from; I was talking about basic power armor. It's a forth the weight with a giant mutant inside, provides superior protection, and is only slightly less agile than a normal human. A crisis suit is the size of a dreadnought, is slow and clumsy on foot, requires a giant jetpack to move around, and requires a clumsier, even more unstable version of the tech the Imperium reserves for its titans, which have more to do with spirituality and symbolism than practical concerns. A broadside is larger, heavier, has a small artillery piece mounted on it, and makes terminator armor look speedy and graceful by comparison.

Don't get me wrong, they're probably more useful than power or terminator armor, but they are comparatively primitive in design and quality. I'm not going to contest that Tau could run circles around Marines, but they're still less advanced. The tech used by Marines is absurdly advanced, but also hideously impractical, not all that useful in the first place, and so rare as to be completely irrelevant.

I can't remember if I made the point earlier, but on topic I can't see the Black Templars successfully doing anything to the Tau; not because the Tau have any real military capability in the grand scale of things, but because Space Marines are irrelevantly small, tactically challenged, strategically deficient, and equipped with shiny but ultimately pointless equipment.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I can't remember if I made the point earlier, but on topic I can't see the Black Templars successfully doing anything to the Tau; not because the Tau have any real military capability in the grand scale of things, but because Space Marines are irrelevantly small, tactically challenged, strategically deficient, and equipped with shiny but ultimately pointless equipment.

Just sayin', Helbrecht beat back the space-part of the largest Ork Waaagh! since Ullanor. The man clearly knows what he's doing. Sure, he had Battlefleet Armageddon at his disposal, but he obviously had sufficient grasp of tactics.

That's the most wildly opinionated and ludicrous idea I've seen on these forums. You know nothing about 40k if you think Space Marines are irrelevant and tactically deficient.

iproxtaco wrote:That's the most wildly opinionated and ludicrous idea I've seen on these forums. You know nothing about 40k if you think Space Marines are irrelevant and tactically deficient.

They make up less than one ten millionth of the Imperial ground forces. They're significantly rarer than main battle tanks, somewhat rarer than superheavy tanks, and potentially outnumbered by the titans on Mars alone. They become even smaller and less relevant when you factor the Imperial navy into the picture, where they're outnumbered by warships capable of reducing vast swathes of a planet to a charred wasteland in a matter of days. The "grossly incompetent" part is probably more GW writers having no clue what they're writing about and so favoring Hollywood Tactics and Plot Armor over any manner of reason, but it still adds a nice bit of snap to a laundry list of their flaws.

They are low in numbers, but they are many more times effective than an Imperial Guard force in their respective roles. They are used for pin-point threats and for breaking enemies the Guard cannot, for whatever reason. Whey the Guard runs into difficulty, they call the Astartes for very obvious reasons. There are 1.2 million Space Marines, are you saying there are potentially more than that number of TITANS on ONE PLANET? Chapter Masters are arguably the greatest tacticians in the Imperium, there are countless stories to back this up. Non-BL ones of course, they really don't quite comprehend what they're talking about most of the time. When described again and again in cannon as the greatest warriors man has ever had, why would you write them as blundering idiots? It irritates me. Their equipment is some of the most advanced technology that the IOM has to offer. Power armour improves nearly everything about them, dexterity and speed obviously the ones it hinders.
Their weapons are many times more destructive than the Guards. All their gear is perfect for their role. They are genetically engineered to be strong, fast, tough and smart, as well as long lived and loyal (although you could easily counter me on that one). Destructive power is not everything. The Imperium wants to keep its worlds at all costs. Space Marines are VASTLY superior to a ship used to bombard a planet until there is nothing left. The Marines will not damage the infrastructure of a planet in any where near how an orbital scouring will.

BaronIveagh wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
look at this link

i clearly see Rail guns mentioned as being standard armament.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Weapons_Batteries

On Tau ships they are. You might notice that a few eldar weapons are scattered in there too. It's talking about 'weapon batteries' which as it says, in BFG is a catch all term for a certain class of starship weapon, much as Heavy, Assault, Blast, are in 40k.

actually,

on Tau ship profiles they don't call their weapons batteries "weapons batteries"

they call them Railgun batteries(which count as weapons batteries for all purposes"


if there are railguns described under the Weapons Batteries page on Lexicanum then they MUST be non-tau railguns.

iproxtaco wrote:They are low in numbers, but they are many more times effective than an Imperial Guard force in their respective roles.

Stormtroopers fill almost all of the roles short of "giant shock troops running across open ground screaming" better, and for that the guard have ogryn.

They are used for pin-point threats and for breaking enemies the Guard cannot, for whatever reason. Whey the Guard runs into difficulty, they call the Astartes for very obvious reasons.

No one calls on Astartes, they just show up to smash things, and everyone just kind of rolls with it and works around them.

There are 1.2 million Space Marines, are you saying there are potentially more than that number of TITANS on ONE PLANET?

On Mars? Possibly. Aren't something like half of all Imperial Titans stationed on Mars? If not, they're at worst about even with machines that rival an entire company in firepower, and certainly outnumbered if counting Knights alongside the Titans proper. You're also magicking in an extra two hundred thousand Marines there.

Chapter Masters are arguably the greatest tacticians in the Imperium, there are countless stories to back this up. Non-BL ones of course, they really don't quite comprehend what they're talking about most of the time.

Just to pull something off the top of my head, Calgar. He bungles the defense of Macragge, sends his Marines away to hide in their fortresses, where they die taking with them but a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the billions, walks into a trap, gets carried away on a stretcher, rushes the naval assets under his command into a trap, gets saved at the last minute by the Navy, and then goes back to Macragge to find his Marines dead and the Tyranids broken by the conventional forces he abandoned, once his deleterious influence was removed from the chain of command. He gets credited with a victory he did everything in his power to sabotage.

When described again and again in cannon as the greatest warriors man has ever had, why would you write them as blundering idiots? It irritates me.

They're like Ogryn, only less useful, intelligent, and hygienic.

Their equipment is some of the most advanced technology that the IOM has to offer. Power armour improves nearly everything about them, dexterity and speed obviously the ones it hinders.
Their weapons are many times more destructive than the Guards. All their gear is perfect for their role. They are genetically engineered to be strong, fast, tough and smart, as well as long lived and loyal (although you could easily counter me on that one).

It's advanced yes, but it's also hideously inefficient and altogether less useful than what the Guard uses.

Destructive power is not everything. The Imperium wants to keep its worlds at all costs. Space Marines are VASTLY superior to a ship used to bombard a planet until there is nothing left. The Marines will not damage the infrastructure of a planet in any where near how an orbital scouring will.

I was just making a point that they're rarer than things with a greater destructive power than an entire chapter worth of Marines.

Calgar is a poor example.

lets look at Dante, Pedro Kantor, Shrike(yeah, I know he's "just" a captain ), Tu'shan, and Helbrect.


these guys kick serious xeno and heretic


Calgar is a Smurf and we all know they suck

iproxtaco wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:They are low in numbers, but they are many more times effective than an Imperial Guard force in their respective roles.

Stormtroopers fill almost all of the roles short of "giant shock troops running across open ground screaming" better, and for that the guard have ogryn.

No, they really don't. They are not as well trained, disciplined, armoured, armed, physically capable or tactically proficient. Ogryns? HA! Why the hell would you ever think that?

No one calls on Astartes, they just show up to smash things, and everyone just kind of rolls with it and works around them.

Oh yes, the Guard regularly call on the Space Marines to help them.

On Mars? Possibly. Aren't something like half of all Imperial Titans stationed on Mars? If not, they're at worst about even with machines that rival an entire company in firepower, and certainly outnumbered if counting Knights alongside the Titans proper. You're also magicking in an extra two hundred thousand Marines there.

Its a rough estimation. There are over 1000 chapters, each carrying on average, a little more than 1000 marines. Factoring in the other chapters like the Space Wolves, Black Templars and other similar chapters who deviate, you get around 1.1-1.2 million Marines throughout the Imperium.
I checked Lexicanum, is states that each Titan Legion is based on an individual Forge World, with Worlds sometimes containing several. Mars, being the most important Forge World and home of the Mechanicum, I would ASSUME has hundreds, possibly about 200 legions at most. 200 times 50 is about 10,000 Titans of varying types. Knights will be a lot more numerous but I couldn't find any figures.

Just to pull something off the top of my head, Calgar. He bungles the defense of Macragge, sends his Marines away to hide in their fortresses, where they die taking with them but a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the billions, walks into a trap, gets carried away on a stretcher, rushes the naval assets under his command into a trap, gets saved at the last minute by the Navy, and then goes back to Macragge to find his Marines dead and the Tyranids broken by the conventional forces he abandoned, once his deleterious influence was removed from the chain of command. He gets credited with a victory he did everything in his power to sabotage.

Calgar is one Chapter Master who didn't really bungle the defence at all. He managed to counter THE SWARMLORD, and actually managed to defeat the fleet. The hordes at the northern and southern fortresses were decimated, I have the Tyranid 5th ed here, no where does it say there were BILLIONS of Tyranids left. The first company fought to the man and succeeded in breaking the Tyranids that assailed them. Then you've got other Chapter Masters, like Helbrecht, Kantor and Dante, all regarded as masters of command.

They're like Ogryn, only less useful, intelligent, and hygienic.

I hope that's a joke.

It's advanced yes, but it's also hideously inefficient and altogether less useful than what the Guard uses.

No, not at all. If they were inefficient and less useful than Guard Weapons, they would simply use Guard Weapons, they're in plentiful supply. They are the best weapons for the Space Marines role as Close Range heavy infantry support, spearhead forces and pin-point strike squads to take out important targets. Horus Rising is the best book I've read which accurately portrays what GW repeatedly says Space Marines are : the most elite and powerful force the Imperium can muster.

I was just making a point that they're rarer than things with a greater destructive power than an entire chapter worth of Marines.

Again, pure destructive power is not everything.

WTF is this thread still oing on about?! NO! Being stupid heavy and as big as a dreadnought while STILL only having the protection of a PA Marine is not a good thing! It is HUGE, HEAVY, and you use "Crisis Suits weigh more=better protection!" as an argument, when the entire topic is IF THE IMPERIUM NOTICES THE TAU, THEY ARE BONED.

Futhermore, they are by far the least significant playable race included in 40K, and YES, I include the SM spinoffs. The Tau have a PATHETIC manufacturing base, and naval force when compared to say, Ultramar. I would like to see the Tau punch out Hive Fleet Behemoth. It would be hillarious. You make it seem like the Tau are a major player, let alone a genuine threat. THEY AREN'T. The Divisio Mandati curbstomps pocket empires like this once a week. The amount of Fanboism in this thread amuses me greatly.

But Hey, guess what, the Tau will continue to grow relative to the other minor threats now that they have their own book and vocal fanbase, and GW will never (again) wipe a playble race from the game. So congrats, Tau fanboys, you have a friend in the GW codex biz. Now maybe they could convince their boss to let them write that book.

iproxtaco wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:They are low in numbers, but they are many more times effective than an Imperial Guard force in their respective roles.

Stormtroopers fill almost all of the roles short of "giant shock troops running across open ground screaming" better, and for that the guard have ogryn.

No, they really don't. They are not as well trained,

Decades of intense training; there's only so much experience one can gain before it all just blends into a plateau of "superhuman".

disciplined,

Not a word I'd use to describe giant mutants whose only purpose in life is to run at things screaming and wildly firing their weapons.

armoured,

Stormtroopers aren't ten feet of clanking metal that's too clumsy to get behind cover or not attract every gun within several kilometers.

armed,

Hellgun > gyrojet's tipped with firecrackers.

physically capable

The whole point of guns is to kill something without having to walk up and punch it, power armor restricts speed and agility, and neither Stormtroopers nor Marines are appropriate to use in extended operations, due to their small numbers and limited ammunition.

or tactically proficient.

Never seen anything to suggest they have even the most rudimentary grasp of tactics.

Ogryns? HA! Why the hell would you ever think that?

Space Marines are decent shock troops. Ogryns are better shock troops, on account of being bigger, stronger, and even more expendable.

No one calls on Astartes, they just show up to smash things, and everyone just kind of rolls with it and works around them.

Oh yes, the Guard regularly call on the Space Marines to help them.

Never seen a reference to them actually being asked to join in, they just sort of hear that something's going on and invite themselves, or drag along conventional forces to do all the heavy lifting (also all the actual work outside dramatic posing).

On Mars? Possibly. Aren't something like half of all Imperial Titans stationed on Mars? If not, they're at worst about even with machines that rival an entire company in firepower, and certainly outnumbered if counting Knights alongside the Titans proper. You're also magicking in an extra two hundred thousand Marines there.

Its a rough estimation. There are over 1000 chapters, each carrying on average, a little more than 1000 marines. Factoring in the other chapters like the Space Wolves, Black Templars and other similar chapters who deviate, you get around 1.1-1.2 million Marines throughout the Imperium.

Around one thousand chapters, each limited to a maximum of one thousand, and a handful of treasonous chapters who flout Imperial authority, but don't really make enough trouble to be worth exterminating.

Just to pull something off the top of my head, Calgar. He bungles the defense of Macragge, sends his Marines away to hide in their fortresses, where they die taking with them but a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the billions, walks into a trap, gets carried away on a stretcher, rushes the naval assets under his command into a trap, gets saved at the last minute by the Navy, and then goes back to Macragge to find his Marines dead and the Tyranids broken by the conventional forces he abandoned, once his deleterious influence was removed from the chain of command. He gets credited with a victory he did everything in his power to sabotage.

Calgar is one Chapter Master who didn't really bungle the defence at all. He managed to counter THE SWARMLORD, and actually managed to defeat the fleet. The hordes at the northern and southern fortresses were decimated, I have the Tyranid 5th ed here, no where does it say there were BILLIONS of Tyranids left. The first company fought to the man and succeeded in breaking the Tyranids that assailed them. Then you've got other Chapter Masters, like Helbrecht, Kantor and Dante, all regarded as masters of command.

He was outsmarted by a mindless beast, albeit one with quickly evolving instinct.

They're like Ogryn, only less useful, intelligent, and hygienic.

I hope that's a joke.

It's advanced yes, but it's also hideously inefficient and altogether less useful than what the Guard uses.

No, not at all. If they were inefficient and less useful than Guard Weapons, they would simply use Guard Weapons, they're in plentiful supply.

What they use, they do so for largely symbolic, traditional reasons. Bolters are ridiculous weapons to use in any capacity, at least next to lasguns, and each suit of power armor requires more of an investment of time and resources than an entire regiment of Guard's worth of flak armor.

They are the best weapons for the Space Marines role as Close Range heavy infantry support, spearhead forces and pin-point strike squads to take out important targets. Horus Rising is the best book I've read which accurately portrays what GW repeatedly says Space Marines are : the most elite and powerful force the Imperium can muster.

Prior to the Horus Heresy, they were. They've just gone downhill since, while the Guard quickly found the ideal equipment for waging an actual war, and has been learning from every engagement since.

I was just making a point that they're rarer than things with a greater destructive power than an entire chapter worth of Marines.

Again, pure destructive power is not everything.

No, but it's telling in regards to the overall scale of things.

sniperjolly wrote:WTF is this thread still oing on about?! NO! Being stupid heavy and as big as a dreadnought while STILL only having the protection of a PA Marine is not a good thing! It is HUGE, HEAVY, and you use "Crisis Suits weigh more=better protection!" as an argument, when the entire topic is IF THE IMPERIUM NOTICES THE TAU, THEY ARE BONED.

I don't think anyone ever said anything like that; there was mention that the material is vastly different and the current fluff indicates that crisis suit protection is somewhere between a terminator and power armor. They function somewhat like dreadnoughts in that they have an enclosed cockpit and carry heavy, support weapons.

Stop, take a breath and re-read the title of the thread. The hypothetical premise here is what if a lone space marine chapter were to assault the Tau Empire. I believe no one has questioned what would happen if the IoM were able to flex it's entire might vs. the Tau.

sniperjolly wrote:Futhermore, they are by far the least significant playable race included in 40K, and YES, I include the SM spinoffs. The Tau have a PATHETIC manufacturing base, and naval force when compared to say, Ultramar. I would like to see the Tau punch out Hive Fleet Behemoth. It would be hillarious. You make it seem like the Tau are a major player, let alone a genuine threat. THEY AREN'T. The Divisio Mandati curbstomps pocket empires like this once a week. The amount of Fanboism in this thread amuses me greatly.

What you said goes against all the available fluff. You are accusing others of being fanboys but you seem to be one yourself. I recommend that you go back and read the interesting discussion on how the Tau fare in BFG. I must say that I've learned quite a bit of interesting information from Kanluwen and BaronIveagh who both seem to have a fantastic grasp on fluff.

sniperjolly wrote:But Hey, guess what, the Tau will continue to grow relative to the other minor threats now that they have their own book and vocal fanbase, and GW will never (again) wipe a playble race from the game. So congrats, Tau fanboys, you have a friend in the GW codex biz. Now maybe they could convince their boss to let them write that book.

Breathe. It's a fictional univese and this is a hypothetical discussion. You might want to take a break from gaming if you're puting this much emotion into a game that you play.
I just can't wait 'til ward writes our codex someday so I can have crisis fists, crisis bombs, crisis guns...etc.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:..words without anything to back them up...

Seems this thread is doing well.
It stumbles from one questionable claim to another....

agnosto wrote: and the current fluff indicates that crisis suit protection is somewhere between a terminator and power armor.

The current fluff had it penetrable with chainswords. Chainswords got rending now?

1hadhq wrote:
The current fluff had it penetrable with chainswords. Chainswords got rending now?

Hey, I don't write the stuff. The armor discussion is several pages back and included rules from an RPG, among other things. In any event, it doesn't really matter to me because it's primarily a game to me and though, in game, my suits kill terminates fairly easily they are nowhere near as sturdy....unless there's some handy terrain nearby to hide behind.

As a side note, chainswords actually have a decent penetration value in the Dark Heresy and Deathwatch roleplay games.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Decades of intense training; there's only so much experience one can gain before it all just blends into a plateau of "superhuman".

Centuries of intense training and battle experience across an entire force trumps decades.

Not a word I'd use to describe giant mutants whose only purpose in life is to run at things screaming and wildly firing their weapons.

Not exactly how they do it. They are still more disciplined, obeying their commander without even thinking, more like a machine

Stormtroopers aren't ten feet of clanking metal that's too clumsy to get behind cover or not attract every gun within several kilometers.

No they aren't, that's right. Space Marines can and do use cover, however they normally don't have to because of their vastly superior armour, so can take those shots. Taking those shots is also the main reason the have power armour, to be able to take them.

Hellgun > gyrojet's tipped with firecrackers.

Riiiight. In range and accuracy maybe. That's it.

The whole point of guns is to kill something without having to walk up and punch it, power armor restricts speed and agility, and neither Stormtroopers nor Marines are appropriate to use in extended operations, due to their small numbers and limited ammunition.

In the Space Marines role on the battlefield, they are often on the front lines of a battle, advancing quickly and wanting to get close to the enemy, therefore strength means a lot when you're in CC. In addition, they can take more punishment, run and fight for longer, and they need nearly no sleep and less food than a stormtrooper. Marines can operate for a lot longer than stormtroopers, and can still fight effectively without guns.

Never seen anything to suggest they have even the most rudimentary grasp of tactics.

Everything GW says about them in the codices and other sources of that ilk make them out to very tactically flexible. They are able to fulfil a larger number of roles than a stormtrooper, although they are specialized for getting close to the enemy.

Space Marines are decent shock troops. Ogryns are better shock troops, on account of being bigger, stronger, and even more expendable.

Ogryns as better shock troops than Space Marines? That's amazing, I mean when you think about it, NO. They are slow and stupid, not as tough, disobedient and are not able to smash the enemy with the ruthless efficiency of a Space Marine squad.

Never seen a reference to them actually being asked to join in, they just sort of hear that something's going on and invite themselves, or drag along conventional forces to do all the heavy lifting (also all the actual work outside dramatic posing).

Yeah, like they're not welcome or wanted. *sarcasm*.

Its a rough estimation. There are over 1000 chapters, each carrying on average, a little more than 1000 marines. Factoring in the other chapters like the Space Wolves, Black Templars and other similar chapters who deviate, you get around 1.1-1.2 million Marines throughout the Imperium.

Around one thousand chapters, each limited to a maximum of one thousand, and a handful of treasonous chapters who flout Imperial authority, but don't really make enough trouble to be worth exterminating.

There's a guideline of 1000, in reality, many Chapters have more. 1000 battle brothers plus support roles like Teachmarines, Apothecaries, Honour Guards and other Chapter specific organisations, like The Sanguinary Guard.

Calgar is one Chapter Master who didn't really bungle the defence at all. He managed to counter THE SWARMLORD, and actually managed to defeat the fleet. The hordes at the northern and southern fortresses were decimated, I have the Tyranid 5th ed here, no where does it say there were BILLIONS of Tyranids left. The first company fought to the man and succeeded in breaking the Tyranids that assailed them. Then you've got other Chapter Masters, like Helbrecht, Kantor and Dante, all regarded as masters of command.

He was outsmarted by a mindless beast, albeit one with quickly evolving instinct.

agnosto wrote:
In any event, it doesn't really matter to me because it's primarily a game to me and though, in game, my suits kill terminates fairly easily they are nowhere near as sturdy....unless there's some handy terrain nearby to hide behind.

In game, youre shooting infantry with anti-tank, if you please...

And no one is as sturdy as fluff can paint him/her, cause we get ( more often than not ) balanced rules.

Melissia wrote:As a side note, chainswords actually have a decent penetration value in the Dark Heresy and Deathwatch roleplay games.

In an RPG.
Thats not bad, just a different place where details are more important.
Sadly not in 40k. So were looking at basic CCW's.

1hadhq wrote:In an RPG.

... a 40k RPG. Don't claim that Inquisitor, Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch aren't 40k.

The difference between the RPG systems and the tabletop system is that the RPG systems are more precise because each player typically only controls one person at a time, while in the tabletop that precision would merely bog down the game because you control dozens of models in the average game. Both still have fluff issues around balance of course, but generally speaking the RPG system is closer to fluff than the tabletop system.

No, wouldn't say they are not 40k.

You're correct they may be closer to the background of 40k., but I cannot be sure as I am just into tabletop nowadays.

How many RPG players are posting in such threads? Assumed most dakkanauts in this thread thought in tabletop terms.