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im2randomghgh wrote:Yeah, in fluff crisis suits are only marginally less powerful than dreadnoughts, and move faster than assault marines.

In IAIII I think it said they move at something like 55kph

I doubt its 55kph. thats pretty freakin fast.

I say they are more maneuverable then fast.


they don't zip to a position, but rather will coast to their targeted landing positions at an even pace.

a Jump Pack could move at 55kph for the short bursts its used for, but not a Jet Pack IMO.


the Jet Packs the Tau use are designed to give stable and powered flight to a heavy weapons plaform. not make a super mobile strike force.

the Jump Packs are able to give the suit the ability to gain some considerable altitude, but they arn't fast in the sense of achieving immense top speeds.

Tau hate thread #332165632156358265678125632

Log it in.

Cottonjaw wrote:Tau hate thread #332165632156358265678125632

Log it in.

A bit late, anything useful to add? Or are you too busy creating a shrine to Aun'Va?

Cottonjaw wrote:Tau hate thread #332165632156358265678125632

Log it in.

It's really no different than the "Why does X not beat the Imperium" threads.

Or the "Tau are the master of the universe" threads that crop up every so often.

Kanluwen wrote:
And again: when everything's going on, I'm not sure how noticeable it would be. It's not like there's a great big blinking 'X' marking where it will land.

You'd have a pretty good general idea. The contrail they supposedly leave behind as tehy travel would be like a huge assed arrow 'landing here!'.

Kanluwen wrote:
Funny, because everywhere else has talked about how the only real hint of a teleport assault is that there's a kind of 'charge' in the air, with a hum and a bit of pressure equalization going on before the actual *WHUMPF* happens.

That's funny, because the 'whumpf' would be at the point they left, not the point they arrived at. The sound would be caused by the sudden vacuum of the departing mass suddenly being filled with air.

The effects have been mentioned in novels and short stories by Abnett and Mitchell, usually from the point of view of the IG or, in one case, the Custodes can feel the effects of a teleport field, though are undisturbed by it, right before Rogal Dorn teleports on site. The blase way the astartes in The Emperor's Finest ignore it suggests that it really doesn't effect them much.

Kanluwen wrote:
Astartes using LRCs aren't going to be driving across a field at someone. They're usually employed during cityfights, where the LRC's short-ranged weaponry and reinforced hull come into handy and allow it to break through buildings letting for the Terminators within to assault defensive positions or dug-in vehicles.

Standard Land Raiders would normally be fielded when it's 'open field'.

Do you think they stop to change tanks before entering or leaving a city? I certainly haven't noticed IG stopping and switching to nothing but demolishers.

And in close terrain like that, the advantage is still the battlesuits. Their jetpacks allow them to do pop ups or rapidly redeploy to a more favorable range.

Tanks are always in trouble in close terrain. You never know what's around the next corner.

Grey Templar wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Yeah, in fluff crisis suits are only marginally less powerful than dreadnoughts, and move faster than assault marines.

In IAIII I think it said they move at something like 55kph

I doubt its 55kph. thats pretty freakin fast.

I say they are more maneuverable then fast.

According to IA it's 50-55kmph. XV88s, however, are much slower, though also, much heavier on the same powerplant. (IA:3 pg 172)

Well, considering its a Land Raider and it's in a city, what does it have to worry about that the Terminators within can't deal with or its armour can't shrug off?

iproxtaco wrote:Well, considering its a Land Raider and they're in a city, what do they have to worry about that the Terminators within can't deal with or its armour can't shrug off?

mines, crisis suits on a roof, ambushes, blundering into the gunsights of another tank around a blind corner, collapses (those really suck), throwing a tred on a piece of rubble (also sucks) more mines, TDs hidden in partially collapsed buildings, thier air support doing popups, artillery (both yours and theirs), it's a big list.

BaronIveagh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Well, considering its a Land Raider and they're in a city, what do they have to worry about that the Terminators within can't deal with or its armour can't shrug off?

mines, crisis suits on a roof, ambushes, blundering into the gunsights of another tank around a blind corner, collapses (those really suck), it's a big list.

The point still stands. It's a land raider, carrying terminators, there's not a huge list of possible threats that they have to consider. If a LRC is deployed in a city the conflict has escalated to a point where there are sufficient forces around the vehicle, or the likelyhood of ambush is small. Adding to that, they only have to worry about the specific threats involved with the enemy they are facing, narrowing the list even more.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And again: when everything's going on, I'm not sure how noticeable it would be. It's not like there's a great big blinking 'X' marking where it will land.

You'd have a pretty good general idea. The contrail they supposedly leave behind as tehy travel would be like a huge assed arrow 'landing here!'.

If that were true, then we wouldn't have scatters. We'd have a servitor with flares pointing the way.

Kanluwen wrote:
Funny, because everywhere else has talked about how the only real hint of a teleport assault is that there's a kind of 'charge' in the air, with a hum and a bit of pressure equalization going on before the actual *WHUMPF* happens.

That's funny, because the 'whumpf' would be at the point they left, not the point they arrived at. The sound would be caused by the sudden vacuum of the departing mass suddenly being filled with air.

The effects have been mentioned in novels and short stories by Abnett and Mitchell, usually from the point of view of the IG or, in one case, the Custodes can feel the effects of a teleport field, though are undisturbed by it, right before Rogal Dorn teleports on site. The blase way the astartes in The Emperor's Finest ignore it suggests that it really doesn't effect them much.

And in several of those same stories, the effects have also been mentioned when someone teleports in. There's still a mass displacement of air filling what was previously an empty vacuum.

Kanluwen wrote:
Astartes using LRCs aren't going to be driving across a field at someone. They're usually employed during cityfights, where the LRC's short-ranged weaponry and reinforced hull come into handy and allow it to break through buildings letting for the Terminators within to assault defensive positions or dug-in vehicles.

Standard Land Raiders would normally be fielded when it's 'open field'.

Do you think they stop to change tanks before entering or leaving a city?

*shrug* I would assume they don't field tanks regularly, so LRCs or LRs are pulled out of the Battle Barges for special occasions.
Like really fancy party hats, if you will.

I certainly haven't noticed IG stopping and switching to nothing but demolishers.

Because Leman Russes are just as effective, if we go off the fluff, in cityfights as the Demolisher. Variable shells compensate for the weakness of the battle cannon in the terrain.

And in close terrain like that, the advantage is still the battlesuits. Their jetpacks allow them to do pop ups or rapidly redeploy to a more favorable range.

That advantage rapidly goes away when the tanks are plowing through the buildings they're jumping up to.

Tanks are always in trouble in close terrain. You never know what's around the next corner.

The Tau lose a lot of their advantages in close terrain. Railguns are effectively useless, ion cannons as well. Seeker Missiles are the only advantage they have, and Astartes can counter Markerlight toting units as necessary.

iproxtaco wrote:

The point still stands. It's a land raider, carrying terminators, there's not a huge list of possible threats that they have to consider. If a LRC is deployed in a city the conflict has escalated to a point where there are sufficient forces around the vehicle, or the likelyhood of ambush is small. Adding to that, they only have to worry about the specific threats involved with the enemy they are facing, narrowing the list even more.

FIBUA there's ALWAYS ambushes. How does having terminators help when some hidden jackoff paints you and they launch a big ol pile of missiles your way from air support? Or deal with a Crisis suit team on the roof top up the street that's carrying heavy anti-tank weapons?

iproxtaco wrote:That's a VERY wild statement to make. Give us any evidence to suggest that Crisis suits are ANYWHERE remotely close to a fething Dreadnought. That is the kind of ignorance or wishful thinking I was talking about.

3 Shield Gens (2 drone 1 onboard)
2 weapons capable of melting terminators and popping tanks
Strong enough to heft around rail guns


I wouldn't say they are a perfect match-up, but honestly they fit somewhere between a termi and a dread.

Also, Imperium tech being put above Tau is just plain stupid.

When the Imperium has ANYTHING on par with tech like Rail Rifles or Eclipse Shield Gens or hell even Battlesuits you can talk superior tech... Until then, about the only thing better is IoMs FTL method.

Kanluwen wrote:
That advantage rapidly goes away when the tanks are plowing through the buildings they're jumping up to.

You've never driven a tank, have you?

The last thing you want to try to do in a tank is drive through a building. One, you risk falling into the basement, and that's bad. Two, you risk the building coming down on you, and that's worse.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
If that were true, then we wouldn't have scatters. We'd have a servitor with flares pointing the way.

How would having a servitor with flares help? The drop pods don't have manual piloting, IIRC. They're flown in by a machine spirit that lands at a pre-designated spot.

Kanluwen wrote:
The Tau lose a lot of their advantages in close terrain. Railguns are effectively useless, ion cannons as well. Seeker Missiles are the only advantage they have, and Astartes can counter Markerlight toting units as necessary.

Actually both would be fairly useful, because cities tend to channel armored vehicles (that don't fly or hover like skimmers, anyway) into kill zones. It's just finding a good spot. A hive spire near a city park or another open area would be hell on tanks and a beast to dislodge.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's a VERY wild statement to make. Give us any evidence to suggest that Crisis suits are ANYWHERE remotely close to a fething Dreadnought. That is the kind of ignorance or wishful thinking I was talking about.

3 Shield Gens (2 drone 1 onboard)

Shield generators aren't that special, guy. Every race has them.

2 weapons capable of melting terminators and popping tanks

Lots of weapons are capable of melting Terminators and popping tanks. That doesn't make the Tau special.

Strong enough to heft around rail guns

Sentinels could heft around railguns, if the Imperium had them.

I wouldn't say they are a perfect match-up, but honestly they fit somewhere between a termi and a dread.

Also, Imperium tech being put above Tau is just plain stupid.

The Imperium didn't have the advantage of 6000 years in a Warp storm perfectly protected from everything with time dilation shenanigans in effect.

Think of the Replicators from SG-1.

When the Imperium has ANYTHING on par with tech like Rail Rifles or Eclipse Shield Gens or hell even Battlesuits you can talk superior tech... Until then, about the only thing better is IoMs FTL method.

Ehhhhhhhhh. The Imperium has, at this point, shelved rail technology. Many theories put rail weaponry at being 'cool concept, absurdly complex and unreliable'.

For what it's worth, they did have rail technology during the Great Crusade. There's mention of the Imperium dropping kinetic kill rods.

BaronIveagh wrote:FIBUA there's ALWAYS ambushes. How does having terminators help when some hidden jackoff paints you and they launch a big ol pile of missiles your way from air support?

So again we're assuming the Tau have air superiority.
And that Astartes don't have ways of countering infiltrators with markerlights, etc.

Or deal with a Crisis suit team on the roof top up the street that's carrying heavy anti-tank weapons?

Are we talking about normal Crisis Suits or Broadsides?

Because Broadsides are going to collapse that rooftop and fall right through in many cases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
That advantage rapidly goes away when the tanks are plowing through the buildings they're jumping up to.

You've never driven a tank, have you?

The last thing you want to try to do in a tank is drive through a building. One, you risk falling into the basement, and that's bad. Two, you risk the building coming down on you, and that's worse.

Land Raiders have been mentioned to be used to plow through the lower support sections of buildings to collapse them.
The same effect can be achieved simply by hitting the building with melta weaponry, charges, etc.

Kanluwen wrote:
If that were true, then we wouldn't have scatters. We'd have a servitor with flares pointing the way.

How would having a servitor with flares help? The drop pods don't have manual piloting, IIRC. They're flown in by a machine spirit that lands at a pre-designated spot.

Pft. You're assuming a Machine Spirit wouldn't say "ooh! shiny!".
Clearly, Machine Spirits are roboferretbrains.

Kanluwen wrote:
The Tau lose a lot of their advantages in close terrain. Railguns are effectively useless, ion cannons as well. Seeker Missiles are the only advantage they have, and Astartes can counter Markerlight toting units as necessary.

Actually both would be fairly useful, because cities tend to channel armored vehicles into kill zones. It's just finding a good spot.

Railgun and ion cannon toting Hammerheads require a huge amount of planning and the units in question utilizing armored vehicles specifically.

Many Chapters wouldn't utilize them in built up areas where ambushes and kill zones were in place.
Seeker Missiles are the great equalizer, and even then they rely on observers to get a clear target lock. Which might not necessarily happen, and the missiles can't really 'track' a target if it becomes obscured or the lock is lost.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's a VERY wild statement to make. Give us any evidence to suggest that Crisis suits are ANYWHERE remotely close to a fething Dreadnought. That is the kind of ignorance or wishful thinking I was talking about.

3 Shield Gens (2 drone 1 onboard)
2 weapons capable of melting terminators and popping tanks
Strong enough to heft around rail guns


I wouldn't say they are a perfect match-up, but honestly they fit somewhere between a termi and a dread.

Also, Imperium tech being put above Tau is just plain stupid.

When the Imperium has ANYTHING on par with tech like Rail Rifles or Eclipse Shield Gens or hell even Battlesuits you can talk superior tech... Until then, about the only thing better is IoMs FTL method.

What, just melting Terminators and popping tanks willy-nilly? Wishful thinking.
Dreadnoughts could heft around about 3 Crisis suits with their attached railguns.

They are on par, maybe slightly better than Terminators, not anywhere near a Dreadnought.

I did post earlier on about how Tau players think their race has vastly superior technology, and that this is just ignorance and wishful thinking. IN THE SAME POST, I said that Tau technology is leagues ahead in many respects, such as the Pulse Rifle.

Lascannons. No idea what the feth Eclipse shielding is, would like an explanation. Dreadnoughts and every Space Marine wearing power armour. Dreadnoughts, better than Crisis suits, the Tau have no Space Marine equivalent.
FTL is a pretty MAJOR technology. The Tau will be nothing without reliable, fast and long ranged FTL.

Kanluwen wrote:
So again we're assuming the Tau have air superiority.

It's not a far fetched assumption. The Imperium seems to have a tendency to give up air superiority on a regular basis.

Kanluwen wrote:
And that Astartes don't have ways of countering infiltrators with markerlights, etc.

Preysight is only good for so far. What's to keep someone from painting them from down the street? If the markerlight team knows their business, the missile is already on it's way when they mark the target.

Kanluwen wrote:
Are we talking about normal Crisis Suits or Broadsides?

Because Broadsides are going to collapse that rooftop and fall right through in many cases.

Broadsides only weigh 3.8 tons. They could take the freight elevator in most modern buildings.

Kanluwen wrote:
Land Raiders have been mentioned to be used to plow through the lower support sections of buildings to collapse them.
The same effect can be achieved simply by hitting the building with melta weaponry, charges, etc.

Then they were protected by plot armor, because what really happens is the tank and everyone in it dies when the building comes down. Even if your engine can move the hundreds of tonnes of rubble that entails, your suspension won't be able to deal with that much added weight. You're stuck fast until they dig you out. If they dig you out.

the Imperium actually still uses Railgun technology, on their space ships.


their conventional weapons batteries are made up of massive Railguns which hurl Landraider sized slugs.

its the only practical use of the technology the Imperium can find. smaller versions were simply not practical compared to other technology.


Railguns require massive amounts of power, are fairly complex, and need solid ammo. Lascannons only require a power supply, are much simpler, and are only slightly less powerful. and considering only 1 other race has a vehicle that can't reliably be killed by a lascannon it isn't a huge loss.

the Lascannon is a better weapon for the Imperium's needs as its easier to build, keep running, and keep loaded. and when a Lascannon doesn't work, there are always Turbo-lasers

Railguns are good at killing super heavy vehicles like Landraiders and up, but against smaller vehicles they are overkill.

This is not an normal tank though. ITS A LAND RAIDER.

Firstly, it's off before the building completely falls on it.
Secondly, it could probably hold the massive amount of weight.
Thirdly, Kanluwen is talking about knocking out the corners. The majority of the buildings mass will not fall on the Land Raider even if it stays still.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
So again we're assuming the Tau have air superiority.

It's not a far fetched assumption. The Imperium seems to have a tendency to give up air superiority on a regular basis.

The Imperium has to ferry aircraft down, prep crews, etc.

Normally, the Navy's operating on a worldwide basis rather than a sector/territorial asset.

Best comparison I can give is the escort situation that the RAF/USAAF had during WWII. Bombers can make it to the targets, but the fighters/interceptors don't necessarily have the range for it.

Kanluwen wrote:
And that Astartes don't have ways of countering infiltrators with markerlights, etc.

Preysight is only good for so far. What's to keep someone from painting them from down the street? If the markerlight team knows their business, the missile is already on it's way when they mark the target.

Seeker Missiles aren't JDAMs or GPS guided bombs. They require the coordinates to be 'marked', triggering the drone brain to activate.

And I said nothing about Preysight. It'd be useful, but the Astartes have just as capable infiltrators and recon units in the form of their Scouts.

Kanluwen wrote:
Are we talking about normal Crisis Suits or Broadsides?

Because Broadsides are going to collapse that rooftop and fall right through in many cases.

Broadsides only weigh 3.8 tons. They could take the freight elevator in most modern buildings.

You're discounting them firing. They need to 'brace' properly, and the recoil would be what's going to cause structural defects.

Kanluwen wrote:
Land Raiders have been mentioned to be used to plow through the lower support sections of buildings to collapse them.
The same effect can be achieved simply by hitting the building with melta weaponry, charges, etc.

Then they were protected by plot armor, because what really happens is the tank and everyone in it dies when the building comes down. Even if your engine can move the hundreds of tonnes of rubble that entails, your suspension won't be able to deal with that much added weight. You're stuck fast until they dig you out. If they dig you out.

Which is why you don't run straight through shouting "WEEE!".

You ram the corners of the building.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:This is not an normal tank though. ITS A LAND RAIDER.

Firstly, it's off before the building completely falls on it.
Secondly, it could probably hold the massive amount of weight.
Thirdly, Kanwulen is talking about knocking out the corners. The majority of the buildings mass will not fall on the Land Raider even if it stays still.

Kanluw.

Helpful hint.

I'll know for next time. Fixed that one.

Grey Templar wrote:the Imperium actually still uses Railgun technology, on their space ships.


their conventional weapons batteries are made up of massive Railguns which hurl Landraider sized slugs.

Not even close.

The only use of liner accelerators by the Imperium is for Bombardment Cannons ( weapon more or less unique to the Space Marines) that use it to fling (inaccuratly) magna bombs. The rest are super large scale regular artillery, laser batteries (such as found on the Sword class), plasma batteries, Disruption Batteries (40k equiv to Star Wars ion cannons), and lances.

iproxtaco wrote:I'll know for next time. Fixed that one.

I meant more for your sig. It's been irking me for days.

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I'll know for next time. Fixed that one.

I meant more for your sig. It's been irking me for days.

Forgot about that, it's one of my favourite quotes on dakka. Fixed now.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Imperium actually still uses Railgun technology, on their space ships.


their conventional weapons batteries are made up of massive Railguns which hurl Landraider sized slugs.

Not even close.

The only use of liner accelerators by the Imperium is for Bombardment Cannons ( weapon more or less unique to the Space Marines) that use it to fling (inaccuratly) magna bombs. The rest are super large scale regular artillery, laser batteries (such as found on the Sword class), plasma batteries, Disruption Batteries (40k equiv to Star Wars ion cannons), and lances.

Grey Templar wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Imperium actually still uses Railgun technology, on their space ships.


their conventional weapons batteries are made up of massive Railguns which hurl Landraider sized slugs.

Not even close.

The only use of liner accelerators by the Imperium is for Bombardment Cannons ( weapon more or less unique to the Space Marines) that use it to fling (inaccuratly) magna bombs. The rest are super large scale regular artillery, laser batteries (such as found on the Sword class), plasma batteries, Disruption Batteries (40k equiv to Star Wars ion cannons), and lances.

look at this link


i clearly see Rail guns mentioned as being standard armament.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Weapons_Batteries

I suppose that's why the Mechanicus is slavering to get its hands on Tau Railgun tech?

Because they already have it? Or because they actually WANT to advance the Imperiums technology level? Neither seem plausible reasons for this thing that I've never heard of before.

iproxtaco wrote:Because they already have it? Or because they actually WANT to advance the Imperiums technology level? Neither seem plausible reasons for this thing that I've never heard of before.

There are factions that very much wish to study it; it's presumable that they're the radical factions that fall into the second category.

Either way, the Tau Railguns are something the Imperium doesn't have or completely understand.

It's just odd. The Mechanicum spend their entire lives around technology, they build it, adapt it, repair it. They are experts, so why do they need to learn from other races? Just look at the tech you have and improve it. This is a discussion for another thread.

Clearly, the Imperium has railguns.

iproxtaco wrote:It's just odd. The Mechanicum spend their entire lives around technology, they build it, adapt it, repair it. They are experts, so why do they need to learn from other races? Just look at the tech you have and improve it. This is a discussion for another thread.

Clearly, the Imperium has railguns.

I think it's that the Tau, while not necessarily more technologically advanced, are technologically different, and going down different paths than humanity did.

I chalk it up to biological differences.

That's probably it. The Tau have created their railguns from scratch. The Mechanicum just know how to make ship-borne ones probably due to some old document or STC they've found. Understanding Tau tech will likely help the sane members help the Imperium as a whole.

iproxtaco wrote:That's probably it. The Tau have created their railguns from scratch. The Mechanicum just know how to make ship-borne ones probably due to some old document or STC they've found. Understanding Tau tech will likely help the sane members help the Imperium as a whole.

If anything, the Tau agricultural tech might lead to a bit of improvement into the lives of the average Imperium citizen.

I think it's also a case of improvement vs. innovation. Humanity is more likely to work on upgrading a current technology, and the Tau are more likely to develop a new technology.