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yeah,
thanx for the info red.
He hasn't moved so with 4ap left, maybe he shoots but missed twice, next he figures the best thing to do is defend against 'nids... things have changed!

he's dead later though as the flamer dude flames the junction.

Why would you bluff... the command console isn't a secret is it? both players see the CP die role... don't they?

When you clear a jam your still on overwatch!

Panic...

You don't reveal the cps until the end of the turn though I'm pretty certain, so... think it could be the rule.

EDIT : the Cps aren't a dice, they're tokens which you draw and place face down on the cp tracker on the "mission status display" board, and you move it along as you spend them, then flip it over to show the number.

yeah
ooh, drawing a random CP token, a nice change in the system! I like it!
I hope the card stock puts up with a good ammount of wear and tear those tokens will see some action!

reds8n wrote:I believe if you "bluff" ( lie) about your command points and are caught you auto lose.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Bluffing and being caught probably just means you lose whatever remaining command points you have, or it's just an instant turn-over. I doubt you'd just 'insta-lose' the game. That's silly.

I think if this is the new system being caught taking extra CP is cheating pure and simple and deserves a auto lose.. and a bash across the head with a rule book...


Panic...

so what's to stop the nid player from "calling your bluff" at the beginning of every turn? if they call you on your total and you're NOT lying, do you get some bonus?

I think the game looks... fair

BrassScorpion wrote:About that special edition suggestion for Space Hulk, GW has gotten burned with expensive special editions before, especially when the regular version is already beautiful. Example, the 4th edition 40K rule book. The regular book at $50 was so nice, hardly anyone bought the $95 special version of the book. They are still sitting on copies of that and we're now in 5th edition. A $200+ plus special version of Space Hulk would have been a huge risk.

Making an outstanding single version and selling it at a premium price as they are doing is a much less risky proposition. As it is, a lot of people are thinking twice about spending $99 on the version we're already getting. How many of the people who are spending $99 for this one would spend double or more on a fancier version? Most people for the money would still rather have multiple copies of the $99 version and GW would have been stuck with a $200-$300 clunker almost no one would buy.

I don't think that is quite a fair comparison. If I recall, didn't the 4th Ed rule book deluxe come with little more than fancier packaging and some counters? (I might be thinking of the special 5th edition book.)
The trouble there is that the none of the niceties included help you use the book. They add "pretty!" value, but not functional value. It is no easier to take the book to games, and the game inside the book is exactly the same. In fact, it is less valuable than the little version of the rules, because they are very small and convenient to tote around to the shop. Plus you don't cry if you spill pepsi on it.
In other words, the over all value of the rule book is fairly limited, mostly to the value of rules, fluff and art. There is not much to be done to multiply that, other than adding in more fluff and art (the main difference between the hardcover and cut down books.)

Space hulk as a board game has a lot of various values to add. Nicer tiles that are detailed and 3d so you can paint them would appeal to those who enjoy that asepct of the hobby, as well as make for a more impressive and immersive gaming experience in general. A nice case would look elegant on a book shelf and last longer than a weaker cardstock box. And, as the nature of the game makes it more likely to be something shared between people using it at the same time, you get to be the one in your group with the really hot box.
Yea... can you tell I am not a marketing guy? Still, I think the point is valid that there is much more room for increasing the already substantial value of the game itself by packaging it with premium features. Hell, GW could pack in 2-3 more terminators and 'nids models that are unique to the set and probably still charge 150$ for it.

The problem is GW implied they couldn't get a high enough margin on this version of the game. They probably wanted to charge $120 US for the game but determined through marketing it wouldn't sell well enough. That said for them to consider a special edition we have to assume they'd act based on what they know now. They wouldn't go into this without getting the price they'd want. Thats one advantage of special editions. The real factor is knowing how many to make. Its nice to say GW could sell a special edition of Space Hulk but at the more realistic price of $200+ version they would never sell enough.

The % profit wasn't big enough at $99. Adding in more and upping the price isn't likely to win more buyers, its likely to scare off buyers.

If GW wants to milk this, an expansion pack that's worth buying is what they need. Playable "teams" for each faction would certainly make it worthwhile without much effort. You'd only need it to be packaged with whatever tokens were appropriate based on the rules for the introduced factions. Miniatures left open ended. They could have some environmental effects like "zero-g" or exploding containers. You sell this for $40 and every person who own space hulk would buy it because we love to share our addiction and want to draft our non-marine and non-nid playing friends into games. This would then open the game upto a special edition where the game and the expansion are sold together and you throw in a single mini. That would be the least painful thing for GW. They'd take a $120 ($99MSRP) asset and a $20 ($40MSRP) and sell as a $150.

Aduro wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Panic wrote:

ALAS POOR BROTHER-YORRICK! I KNEW HIM WELL!!!!!!!!!!! *chomp*

I had the same thought when I saw that picure.

I see more of a "Sir, you forgot your hat!" pose on it.

Could be a crapton of Ultras that got killed there. Those helmets look to be a bit lighter red then those used by the BA's. Once again proving that Ultras are the sad pandas of the Astartes legions.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Bluffing and being caught probably just means you lose whatever remaining command points you have, or it's just an instant turn-over. I doubt you'd just 'insta-lose' the game. That's silly.

If it is like 1st Ed, then the marine player keeps the CPs he gets secret. That way, the stealer player never knows whether he's saving some. So he only spent 3CPs? Does that mean they only had 3, or are they saving enough to clear a jam and reset overwatch?

At the end of the turn, the CP counter is shown to the stealer player, and they can confirm that the marine player spent only the number of CPs they had (the game tracker has a CP tracker too, now).

In the event that you use more CPs than you actually had, you forfeit the mission. Doesn't mean you have to stop playing, just that if it was a tournament or part of a campaign, then the result would be recorded as a loss. If it's a one off game, then I think practically everyone would allow the game to continue, maybe even agree that the player will deduct the CPs he over-used from his CP score next turn, or just take it as a mistake and carry on.

Platuan4th wrote:

Aduro wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Panic wrote:

ALAS POOR BROTHER-YORRICK! I KNEW HIM WELL!!!!!!!!!!! *chomp*

I had the same thought when I saw that picure.

I see more of a "Sir, you forgot your hat!" pose on it.

Looks like they were playing football with a termi helmet and he is the goalie lol

typhus wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Aduro wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Panic wrote:

ALAS POOR BROTHER-YORRICK! I KNEW HIM WELL!!!!!!!!!!! *chomp*

I had the same thought when I saw that picure.

I see more of a "Sir, you forgot your hat!" pose on it.

Looks like they were playing football with a termi helmet and he is the goalie lol

An unpainted pic of this one was what inspired my comments about them collecting helmets and trying to give them out. This one actually looks like he is trying to hand the helmet to someone.

Just got mine in, and a couple of the ladz are setting it up as we speak. It's as good as anyone hoped for. Really can't wait to get to painting the models.

We're going to knock out a couple of games, close the store and knock back some brews at the local pub, then come back for more games.

Platuan4th wrote:

Aduro wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Panic wrote:

ALAS POOR BROTHER-YORRICK! I KNEW HIM WELL!!!!!!!!!!! *chomp*

I had the same thought when I saw that picure.

I see more of a "Sir, you forgot your hat!" pose on it.

"HELMETS !!! GET YER HELMETS HERE !!! COMMEMORATIVE BLOOD ANGEL HELMETS !!!!!"

Hello !

Played a few games at my local store, and had the opportunity to read the rules carefully.

V3 is deeply inspired by V1, to the point it plays nearly the same (which is good !). But for those who wonder, here are a few differences, don't remember them all though :

- there is a new mechanism called 'guard', it cost 2AP like overwatch, and allows you to reroll one dice in close combat
- sustained fire will only give +1 (so 5+ for storm bolters)
- overwatch include firing at a door if it closes in the LOS of a terminator at 12 range or less
- Lightning claws are 2D6+1
- Thunder hammer and storm shield is 1D6+1, cumulative with sergeant +1 for +2, and remove one dice from genestealer attack (so down to 2D6)
- no full auto for assault cannon or maybe I missed it
- librarian has some points to use either in close combat, or for specific powers, but seems well contained (nothing ala Genestealers expansion)

Overwatch, flamer, moves, reloading, jamming, use of CP, etc... It plays as V1.

If you think about it as V1+Deathwing with a few minor tweaks, you'll be spot on, which was arguably the best compromise ever for Space Hulk.

Olaf'

ps : sorry english is not my native language.

It does appear the Broodlord is immune to the heavy flamer and requires 2 wounds done simultaneously (i.e. a double 6 for a stormbolter to die). I watched several demo games this evening.

Olafsson wrote:
- there is a new mechanism called 'guard', it cost 2AP like overwatch, and allows you to reroll one dice in close combat.

Is there a way to lose this guard ability similar to 'jamming' your storm bolter while on overwatch? If so, what?

- sustained fire will only give +1 (so 5+ for storm bolters)

What? Noooooooooooooooo!!! Why would they do this? I am so bummed now.

- Lightning claws are 2D6+1

So Lightning Claws got worse from 1st Edition (where they were 2D6, pick the highest +2)? That sucks. I'm assuming when you say 2D6+1 you mean that you roll 2D6 and pick the highest result as usual, right?

If so, it looks like you pretty much need to set your Lightning Claw guys on 'guard' to ensure they have a semi-reliable chance.

- Thunder hammer and storm shield is 1D6+1, cumulative with sergeant +1 for +2, and remove one dice from genestealer attack (so down to 2D6)

Cool, so they changed the Storm Shield's re-roll into a removed dice? I like it. Do you get to choose which dice is removed after the stealer rolls, or does he just roll one less die? Also, in 1st edition the Storm Shield's effect could only be used against attacks from the front or left of the Termie, is this still the case?

- no full auto for assault cannon or maybe I missed it

Its still 3 dice when it shoots, correct? And what do you need to kill with? In 1st edition I believe it was a '4+' (which was pretty sick), is this still the same or has it been bumped up to '5+' or '6+'?

- librarian has some points to use either in close combat, or for specific powers, but seems well contained (nothing ala Genestealers expansion)

Good to hear, cause the psyker rules in Genestealer were TERRIBLE.

Overwatch, flamer, moves, reloading, jamming, use of CP, etc... It plays as V1.

Reloading? I heard they had gotten rid of the reload for Heavy Flamers (which was another thing that sounded horrible to me), are you saying there *are* reloads for Heavy Flamers? Or does it depend on the mission like it did in 1st edition?

Also, besides the Broodlord needing to be hit by double '6's to be killed (which sounds crazy to me), are there any other differences between him and a regular stealer? Does he roll more dice in CC or something or is he just harder to kill with shooting?

Olaf'

ps : sorry english is not my native language.

No worries, and thank you very much. A bunch of people seem to have seen the rules but very few people are actually posting the differences which I'm dying to know in full detail. So thanks again!

nedius wrote:In the event that you use more CPs than you actually had, you forfeit the mission.

That's just stupid. With this system the Marine has everything to lose, and there's no reason not for the 'Stealer player to just keep calling every turn, unless he forfeits the mission if he's wrong. And even if that was the case, the penalty is too high for such a simple act, so no one would ever call for risk of auto-losing the game, and no Marine player would ever attempt to take more CP's for fear of auto-losing the game.

It should be a risk vs reward system.

Either:

I pull my Command Point counter and place it on the tracker (say I pulled 4, but I place it on the 6). Genestealer player calls it, I reveal that I actually have 4. I lose my four command points.
- - OR - -
I pull my Command Point counter and place it on the tracker (say I pulled 4, and I place it on the 4). Genestealer player calls it, thinking I've taken more than I have, and I reveal that I have four. I remove one of his blip counters.

That would make far more sense.

Panic wrote:I think if this is the new system being caught taking extra CP is cheating pure and simple and deserves a auto lose.. and a bash across the head with a rule book...

Don't be crazy. If bluffing is part of the system it's no different or no more 'cheating' than pretending you've got a Royal Flush in Poker when you've really only got a pair of 2's.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

nedius wrote:In the event that you use more CPs than you actually had, you forfeit the mission.

That's just stupid. With this system the Marine has everything to lose, and there's no reason not for the 'Stealer player to just keep calling every turn, unless he forfeits the mission if he's wrong. And even if that was the case, the penalty is too high for such a simple act, so no one would ever call for risk of auto-losing the game, and no Marine player would ever attempt to take more CP's for fear of auto-losing the game.

It should be a risk vs reward system.

Either:

I pull my Command Point counter and place it on the tracker (say I pulled 4, but I place it on the 6). Genestealer player calls it, I reveal that I actually have 4. I lose my four command points.
- - OR - -
I pull my Command Point counter and place it on the tracker (say I pulled 4, and I place it on the 4). Genestealer player calls it, thinking I've taken more than I have, and I reveal that I have four. I remove one of his blip counters.

That would make far more sense.

Panic wrote:I think if this is the new system being caught taking extra CP is cheating pure and simple and deserves a auto lose.. and a bash across the head with a rule book...

Don't be crazy. If bluffing is part of the system it's no different or no more 'cheating' than pretending you've got a Royal Flush in Poker when you've really only got a pair of 2's.

I'm guessing this whole 'bluffing' element is something people have interjected into the game rather than it actually being written that way. If the penalty for incorrectly tracking your command points is to auto-lose the scenario I think pretty clearly the point is that you're supposed to make doubly sure that you properly track your CPs.

I agree a bluffing system could have been cool, but it would have to be something that could always affect the stealer player. In your example, if the stealer player had no blips on the board (or knew all his remaining blips were '1's, for example) he would gladly take the chance to call the marine player out just to make sure.

But if it was something like, if the stealer player calls the marine player out and he's wrong then the marine player gets to remove the '1' & '2' CP chit from the pool the next turn he draws for CPs, then I think it could work.

While I think something like that could have been fun, it doesn't really fit in with the theme of the game really. CPs are just supposed to represent commanders giving certain termies extra orders (or yelling at them to 'RUN!') and the reason they are random are just so the stealer player doesn't know how many points the marine player has to work with so his strategy can't be fool-proofed (and because the marine commander giving orders sometimes suffers from the 'fog of war').

CPs sound like they work exactly the same as V1.

If you use too many, you lose. But as you know how many you have, and a counter (a die was used in V1) shows how many you've used, you'd have to be exceptionally over-excited to use too many

Basically, it's not about "bluffing" as such, just that the Stealer player doesn't know how many you have, so has to weigh up the chances of you having some in reserve.

yakface wrote:I'm guessing this whole 'bluffing' element is something people have interjected into the game rather than it actually being written that way.

I think you're right. I use the word 'bluffing' because that's the way my friend described it to me after he played a few games of the new edition. And I also agree that while it could be made to work, it doesn't 'fit' with everything else. I don't think each turn of Space Hulk should begin with the 'bluffing' phase in the same way every turn of Blood Bowl begins with your opponent hoping that you forget to move your turn counter. It's not necessary and adds nothing to the game except wasting more of the Marine player's precious ever-ticking-away time.

lol, conversions.

Checked out the boxset at my local FLGS and the best part is the 3-D CAT.

The action-poses, I can do without. That ain't going to make my game any more fun.

If they only spent those resources sculpting 3D corridors and rooms. If only . . .

Has anyone found out if the new tiles fit together with the old tiles?

Yup. Brought a 1st Ed tile into GW with me last time. The new tiles are very thick, so there's about a 1/2cm difference in height, but otherwise they fit together.

This afternoon I will have another chance to see the rules book, without any time pressure, so I have written down all your questions and will answer them precisely this evening (gmt+1 here).

In the meantime, I can tell about what I *remember*.

* CP : it works the same way as V1 : during the Genestealers' turn, you can use CP to perform one action in reaction to one action from a Genestealer that ends in the LOS of a marine.

It does not use a D6 anymore, instead you randomly take a token (from 1 to 6), keep it secret, and then put it on the "0" case of the command board. Sergents add no fixed CP bonus ; instead, if any sergeant is still alive, the player can discard his first CP counter and take another one (and must stick to it even if worse). Each time the player uses a CP, he advances the token on the command board. At the end of the genestealers' turn, there is a check to see if the 2 matches : if the terminators player used too many CP, he really immediately loses, it's written in the rules !

* Time : it is a fixed value, not like in Deathwing V1, when it depended on your number of officers alive. Genestealers player handles it.

* Blips : they range from 1 to 3. Saw no 0 or 6.

yakface wrote:Is there a way to lose this guard ability similar to 'jamming' your storm bolter while on overwatch? If so, what?

Will have to check.

sustained fire What? Noooooooooooooooo!!! Why would they do this? I am so bummed now.

Going down to 3+ was sure nice ; will check in details but I think these times are gone.

So Lightning Claws got worse from 1st Edition (where they were 2D6, pick the highest +2)? That sucks. I'm assuming when you say 2D6+1 you mean that you roll 2D6 and pick the highest result as usual, right?

Yes, 2D6+1 and you pick the highest dice. At 2D6+2 lighting claws were good offensive tools, at 2D6+1, better use the new guard feature.

Cool, so they changed the Storm Shield's re-roll into a removed dice? I like it. Do you get to choose which dice is removed after the stealer rolls, or does he just roll one less die? Also, in 1st edition the Storm Shield's effect could only be used against attacks from the front or left of the Termie, is this still the case?

Gonna check this afternoon.

Its still 3 dice when it shoots, correct? And what do you need to kill with? In 1st edition I believe it was a '4+' (which was pretty sick), is this still the same or has it been bumped up to '5+' or '6+'?

It is still 3 D6, 5+ (4+ sustained fire).

Good to hear, cause the psyker rules in Genestealer were TERRIBLE.

Will write down all the rules for the librarian, but on first view, it was much like in Deathwing+some limited powers, nothing like Genestealer expansion.

Reloading? I heard they had gotten rid of the reload for Heavy Flamers (which was another thing that sounded horrible to me), are you saying there *are* reloads for Heavy Flamers? Or does it depend on the mission like it did in 1st edition?

There are reloads for assault cannon, and it takes 4AP to reload as in Deathwing, plus the chance of catastrophic failure exactly as in Deathwing.

Also, besides the Broodlord needing to be hit by double '6's to be killed (which sounds crazy to me), are there any other differences between him and a regular stealer? Does he roll more dice in CC or something or is he just harder to kill with shooting?

Yes he needs a double wound to die, which means he is impervious to flamer, but he also have special rules for close combat ; we did not play it so I'll have a look at its rules.

A bunch of people seem to have seen the rules but very few people are actually posting the differences which I'm dying to know in full detail. So thanks again!

I hear you . I played V1/Deathwing a lot, and was searching on the forum for a complete list of what's different in V3, too !

Yesterday we were so impatient to play we went directly for some games, but promise, this afternoon I take notes of all your questions and will answer them as soon as I return.

Olaf'

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yup. Brought a 1st Ed tile into GW with me last time. The new tiles are very thick, so there's about a 1/2cm difference in height, but otherwise they fit together.

0.5cm or 0.5mm?

0.5 cm

The new tiles are very detailed and VERY thick. I really, REALLY hope FFG goes into the tile and scenario business for Space Hulk. The tiles are one of the best parts of the new set.

It's not just the tiles - everything is really thick.

But they do fit together.

found some guy has done rules for Necrons