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Guys, what about weapons?
Can Space Marines outmatch Tau in weaponry?

To me it;s like Tau are more powerful, but Marines are more practical. So they are even, or the Marines have a little advantage over Tau...

I am talking about infantry weapons btw...

Brother Coa wrote:Guys, what about weapons?
Can Space Marines outmatch Tau in weaponry?

To me it;s like Tau are more powerful, but Marines are more practical. So they are even, or the Marines have a little advantage over Tau...

I am talking about infantry weapons btw...

In close quarters, the Tau have a moderate disadvantage, however, it's not clear what the difference is between these firewarrior cadres on ship and the ones on ground is. It says they're specialists in close quarters fighting and boarding actions, so the marines might only have a marginal advantage.

Brother Coa wrote:Guys, what about weapons?
Can Space Marines outmatch Tau in weaponry?

To me it;s like Tau are more powerful, but Marines are more practical. So they are even, or the Marines have a little advantage over Tau...

I am talking about infantry weapons btw...

It depends on the weapon. I would say that the tau weapons are more practical. SM weapons are things like mystic swords and rocket powered handguns. They are cool as hike, but practical? I don't know. With the tau, everything is meant to be practical. They don't have any old mystic weapons that can't be reproduced. (Well there is one. The dawn blade, but that's a different story.)

Edit: You know I am actually looking at the process of creating a SM and nothing about a SM is practical. It's all really cool and really powerful, but I can't help but think of what use this tech could be if it was applied in more practical way.

Brother Coa wrote:Guys, what about weapons?
Can Space Marines outmatch Tau in weaponry?

To me it;s like Tau are more powerful, but Marines are more practical. So they are even, or the Marines have a little advantage over Tau...

I am talking about infantry weapons btw...

A pulse rifle or carbine is stronger than a bolter; but power armor is tougher and more useful than the Tau's carapace armor.

Nerivant wrote:
A pulse rifle or carbine is stronger than a bolter; but power armor is tougher and more useful than the Tau's carapace armor.

Actually the tau Pulse rifle is comparable to the bolter with better range but similar penetraition and damage, and their basic armor is comparable to a battle sister's power armor, though it lacks the strength enhancements.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
A pulse rifle or carbine is stronger than a bolter; but power armor is tougher and more useful than the Tau's carapace armor.

Actually the tau Pulse rifle is comparable to the bolter with better range but similar penetraition and damage, and their basic armor is comparable to a battle sister's power armor, though it lacks the strength enhancements.

"Even the Fire Caste’s standard issue
weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing
even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability."
-Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 366.

Nerivant wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
A pulse rifle or carbine is stronger than a bolter; but power armor is tougher and more useful than the Tau's carapace armor.

Actually the tau Pulse rifle is comparable to the bolter with better range but similar penetraition and damage, and their basic armor is comparable to a battle sister's power armor, though it lacks the strength enhancements.

"Even the Fire Caste’s standard issue
weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing
even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability."
-Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 366.

Which is funny because the stats given in Rogue Trader for a pulse rifle are almost identical to that of a bolt gun except for longer range and greater accuracy at range.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
A pulse rifle or carbine is stronger than a bolter; but power armor is tougher and more useful than the Tau's carapace armor.

Actually the tau Pulse rifle is comparable to the bolter with better range but similar penetraition and damage, and their basic armor is comparable to a battle sister's power armor, though it lacks the strength enhancements.

"Even the Fire Caste’s standard issue
weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing
even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability."
-Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 366.

Which is funny because the stats given in Rogue Trader for a pulse rifle are almost identical to that of a bolt gun except for longer range and greater accuracy at range.

Competitive balance strikes again.

nomotog wrote:

Competitive balance strikes again.

Except it's an RPG so what competitive balance?

BaronIveagh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Competitive balance strikes again.

Except it's an RPG so what competitive balance?

I'm more inclined to believe the quote than the stats; since the stats are much more of an approximation.

But maybe that's just me.

Nerivant wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Competitive balance strikes again.

Except it's an RPG so what competitive balance?

I'm more inclined to believe the quote than the stats; since the stats are much more of an approximation.

But maybe that's just me.

It's crunch Vs fluff. This thread is all about fluff, so I say go with the quote.

nomotog wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Competitive balance strikes again.

Except it's an RPG so what competitive balance?

I'm more inclined to believe the quote than the stats; since the stats are much more of an approximation.

But maybe that's just me.

It's crunch Vs fluff. This thread is all about fluff, so I say go with the quote.

Eh, but the problem is that for every quote like that, you get one like the scene in the one Ultramarine novel where they casually shrug off everything the Tau can fire at them. So no consistency.

BaronIveagh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Competitive balance strikes again.

Except it's an RPG so what competitive balance?

I'm more inclined to believe the quote than the stats; since the stats are much more of an approximation.

But maybe that's just me.

It's crunch Vs fluff. This thread is all about fluff, so I say go with the quote.

Eh, but the problem is that for every quote like that, you get one like the scene in the one Ultramarine novel where they casually shrug off everything the Tau can fire at them. So no consistency.

True.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Eh, but the problem is that for every quote like that, you get one like the scene in the one Ultramarine novel where they casually shrug off everything the Tau can fire at them. So no consistency.

The only thing about that is that you don't have plot armor in an RPG. Tau weapons are deadly because the characters are allowed to die.

nomotog wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Then the system would overload, but he'll still take his helmet off. Not too much danger unless he gets shot by a Railrifle through 5 walls.

Yes, in the hard vacuum he created carving through a bulkhead with his chainsword. Good idea.

SMs can actually survive in the vacuum. They hold their breath. No really. That is what they do.

its chilly. what happens when they sneeze?

Nerivant wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Eh, but the problem is that for every quote like that, you get one like the scene in the one Ultramarine novel where they casually shrug off everything the Tau can fire at them. So no consistency.

The only thing about that is that you don't have plot armor in an RPG. Tau weapons are deadly because the characters are allowed to die.

Yes, however, the rules of the RPG have the Plasma Rifle with comparable damage and penetration to the bolter, just with superior range and accuracy. So saying 'they're super deadly' and then having them deal more or less the same damage as a bolter (granted with better range and accuracy) does not match up.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Eh, but the problem is that for every quote like that, you get one like the scene in the one Ultramarine novel where they casually shrug off everything the Tau can fire at them. So no consistency.

The only thing about that is that you don't have plot armor in an RPG. Tau weapons are deadly because the characters are allowed to die.

Yes, however, the rules of the RPG have the Plasma Rifle with comparable damage and penetration to the bolter, just with superior range and accuracy. So saying 'they're super deadly' and then having them deal more or less the same damage as a bolter (granted with better range and accuracy) does not match up.

If you're talking about the XV8 Plasma Rifle, that's probably for balance reasons.

"It ignores your armor, deals a massive chunk of your health as damage, and can fire on semi-auto. Oh, also, it's mounted to a battlesuit. It has two of them."

Nerivant wrote:

If you're talking about the XV8 Plasma Rifle, that's probably for balance reasons.

"It ignores your armor, deals a massive chunk of your health as damage, and can fire on semi-auto. Oh, also, it's mounted to a battlesuit. It has two of them."

Actually, I was talking about the regular tau plasma rifle that the kroot are using in Rogue Trader. Where armor is tinfoil anyway, when the orbital strike comes down.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

If you're talking about the XV8 Plasma Rifle, that's probably for balance reasons.

"It ignores your armor, deals a massive chunk of your health as damage, and can fire on semi-auto. Oh, also, it's mounted to a battlesuit. It has two of them."

Actually, I was talking about the regular tau plasma rifle that the kroot are using in Rogue Trader. Where armor is tinfoil anyway, when the orbital strike comes down.

Aye. Even in Deathwatch, where the "Pulse > Bolter" quote was from, has the pulse rifle doing less damage and having less penetration, but a longer range.

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's a VERY wild statement to make. Give us any evidence to suggest that Crisis suits are ANYWHERE remotely close to a fething Dreadnought. That is the kind of ignorance or wishful thinking I was talking about.

3 Shield Gens (2 drone 1 onboard)
2 weapons capable of melting terminators and popping tanks
Strong enough to heft around rail guns


I wouldn't say they are a perfect match-up, but honestly they fit somewhere between a termi and a dread.

Also, Imperium tech being put above Tau is just plain stupid.

When the Imperium has ANYTHING on par with tech like Rail Rifles or Eclipse Shield Gens or hell even Battlesuits you can talk superior tech... Until then, about the only thing better is IoMs FTL method.

What, just melting Terminators and popping tanks willy-nilly? Wishful thinking.
Dreadnoughts could heft around about 3 Crisis suits with their attached railguns.

They are on par, maybe slightly better than Terminators, not anywhere near a Dreadnought.

I did post earlier on about how Tau players think their race has vastly superior technology, and that this is just ignorance and wishful thinking. IN THE SAME POST, I said that Tau technology is leagues ahead in many respects, such as the Pulse Rifle.

Lascannons. No idea what the feth Eclipse shielding is, would like an explanation. Dreadnoughts and every Space Marine wearing power armour. Dreadnoughts, better than Crisis suits, the Tau have no Space Marine equivalent.
FTL is a pretty MAJOR technology. The Tau will be nothing without reliable, fast and long ranged FTL.

1. The Tau understand the concept of traveling in the warp, it is totally possible they have the ability to but do not use it, due to its inherit dangers. Their inferior FTL is by choice. The result of weighing the dangers and deciding its not worth the risk.

2. Shield Gens are common, having thee, two of which absorb damage for you with no consequences if they fail is win.

3. An Eclipse Shield Gen turns an XV-9 into both a stealthsuit and provides a shield gen. Though only being field tested, it's very likely tech like that sees mass production down the road. Yet again, it represents technology that defines top tier R&D on a galactic scale.


Tau suits represent a gap in Imperium technology. They are a highly mobile and super defensive elite infantry that can pop everything from a terminator to a Land Raider. In many ways they are a weapon of lethal finesse that the IoM lacks due to dogma and ritual.

the Tau CAN'T use Warp Travel as they don't have access to any sort of race to use as Navigators.


you have to have a psyker to pilot the ship through the warp.

I could be wrong, but Geller Fields might require psychic activation too.

the Tau certaintly don't have Geller Field tech(and don't need it with their method of travel) although they could salavage it from any human ships they capture.


a Tau ship which entered the warp would be at the mercy of the Warp's tides and eddys. not a place ANYONE could survive in(unless you're Draigo )

the Tau can't fathom the warp and are utterly perplexed by anything associated with it(que C'tan consperacy theories)



and for boarding actions:

Space Marines get a +2 bonus on their rolls. Tau get 1/2 the normal rolls for a ship of their size.

Tau suck in boarding actions.

Reason 1: Ships are cramped. you're a little firewarrior with a Pulse Carbine patrolling the corridors of the ship. you turn the corner and bumb into a Space Marine. I garuntee you will be dead before your brain even regesters the marine's presense as the marine probably heard you a good 2 minutes before you rounded the corner and just reached out and snapped your tiny little xeno neck the second you came around the bend. and in the cramped corridors, your weapons longer range is nullified and any penetration power you have gained is also gained by your enemies.

Reason 2: Tau dislike close combat in general. they won't gear their ships towards holding off Boarding actions aside from rudimantary precautions.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

1. The Tau understand the concept of traveling in the warp, it is totally possible they have the ability to but do not use it, due to its inherit dangers. Their inferior FTL is by choice. The result of weighing the dangers and deciding its not worth the risk.

2. Shield Gens are common, having thee, two of which absorb damage for you with no consequences if they fail is win.

3. An Eclipse Shield Gen turns an XV-9 into both a stealthsuit and provides a shield gen. Though only being field tested, it's very likely tech like that sees mass production down the road. Yet again, it represents technology that defines top tier R&D on a galactic scale.


Tau suits represent a gap in Imperium technology. They are a highly mobile and super defensive elite infantry that can pop everything from a terminator to a Land Raider. In many ways they are a weapon of lethal finesse that the IoM lacks due to dogma and ritual.

Number 1. Lets talk about that one. Do the tau really know that much about the warp? It seems to me, that the warp and most tech related to the warp are the tau blind spot. They have such low warp presence, I think it will take them a very long time to make quality warp travel and things like transporters or force weapons are a total no go. Anyone have a different idea?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:the Tau CAN'T use Warp Travel as they don't have access to any sort of race to use as Navigators.


you have to have a psyker to pilot the ship through the warp.

I could be wrong, but Geller Fields might require psychic activation too.

the Tau certaintly don't have Geller Field tech(and don't need it with their method of travel) although they could salavage it from any human ships they capture.


a Tau ship which entered the warp would be at the mercy of the Warp's tides and eddys. not a place ANYONE could survive in(unless you're Draigo )

the Tau can't fathom the warp and are utterly perplexed by anything associated with it(que C'tan consperacy theories)



and for boarding actions:

Space Marines get a +2 bonus on their rolls. Tau get 1/2 the normal rolls for a ship of their size.

Tau suck in boarding actions.

Reason 1: Ships are cramped. you're a little firewarrior with a Pulse Carbine patrolling the corridors of the ship. you turn the corner and bumb into a Space Marine. I garuntee you will be dead before your brain even regesters the marine's presense as the marine probably heard you a good 2 minutes before you rounded the corner and just reached out and snapped your tiny little xeno neck the second you came around the bend. and in the cramped corridors, your weapons longer range is nullified and any penetration power you have gained is also gained by your enemies.

Reason 2: Tau dislike close combat in general. they won't gear their ships towards holding off Boarding actions aside from rudimantary precautions.

Could the tau use human navigators?

The tau apparently trained some special troops to not be so bad at boarding actions. We had a nice talk about what those troops are like. I think they are pathfinders in space suits.

the Tau could use Human Navigators if they had access to them.

the problem is that Navigators were almost completely isolated from the rest of humanity long ago and now are almost exclusivly found among the Navigatus Nobilite houses on Terra.

a randomly occuring Navigator would be a 1 in ten gadzillion occurance. for the Gene to appear in a human unrelated to the existing navigator lines would be unheard of, although not impossable.


any old psyker will do in a pinch, but they can't do the job properly. and there is the issue of the ship not having a Geller Field.

Grey Templar wrote:the Tau CAN'T use Warp Travel as they don't have access to any sort of race to use as Navigators.


you have to have a psyker to pilot the ship through the warp.

I could be wrong, but Geller Fields might require psychic activation too.

Nope. Imperial ships can make what's called a 'calculated jump' without a navigator, but they're very short range. A navigator is required for any long range jumps.

Kroot have an equivalent to navigators.

Grey Templar wrote:
the Tau certaintly don't have Geller Field tech(and don't need it with their method of travel) although they could salavage it from any human ships they capture.

That's not known.

Grey Templar wrote:
a Tau ship which entered the warp would be at the mercy of the Warp's tides and eddys. not a place ANYONE could survive in(unless you're Draigo )

the Tau can't fathom the warp and are utterly perplexed by anything associated with it(que C'tan consperacy theories)

Um, you may wish to check the fluff for the Medusa V campiegn. IIRC the Tau's objectives were to learn about the warp. This, supposedly, they did, though at tremendous cost, and they still can't make long range warp jumps.

Grey Templar wrote:
Space Marines get a +2 bonus on their rolls. Tau get 1/2 the normal rolls for a ship of their size.

Partially retconned as of FAQ 2010. Certain Tau ships now take specially trained firewarrior cadres so they no longer halve thier value. Please read previous posts in thread.

Grey Templar wrote:
Tau suck in boarding actions.

No more then the Imperial Navy now.

Grey Templar wrote:
Reason 1: Ships are cramped. you're a little firewarrior with a Pulse Carbine patrolling the corridors of the ship. you turn the corner and bumb into a Space Marine. I garuntee you will be dead before your brain even regesters the marine's presense as the marine probably heard you a good 2 minutes before you rounded the corner and just reached out and snapped your tiny little xeno neck the second you came around the bend. and in the cramped corridors, your weapons longer range is nullified and any penetration power you have gained is also gained by your enemies.

Um, I hate to point this out to you, but I think that there might be alarms going off from the big assed hole they just made in the hull to get on board. And, 'Imperial' starships are cramped. Every race is not the IoM.

Grey Templar wrote:
Reason 2: Tau dislike close combat in general. they won't gear their ships towards holding off Boarding actions aside from rudimantary precautions.

Retconned as of BFG FAQ 2010. Seem that meeting the Imperium taught them a few new tricks.

Grey Templar wrote:the Tau could use Human Navigators if they had access to them.

the problem is that Navigators were almost completely isolated from the rest of humanity long ago and now are almost exclusivly found among the Navigatus Nobilite houses on Terra.

a randomly occuring Navigator would be a 1 in ten gadzillion occurance. for the Gene to appear in a human unrelated to the existing navigator lines would be unheard of, although not impossable.


any old psyker will do in a pinch, but they can't do the job properly. and there is the issue of the ship not having a Geller Field.

So navigators are rare? What do people like rouge traders or fringe worlds use? (You know the kind of people the tau seduce into working for the empire.)

nomotog wrote:

So navigators are rare? What do people like rouge traders or converted planets use?

The Navigator houses rent them out to Rogue Traders, etc.

nomotog wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Tau could use Human Navigators if they had access to them.

the problem is that Navigators were almost completely isolated from the rest of humanity long ago and now are almost exclusivly found among the Navigatus Nobilite houses on Terra.

a randomly occuring Navigator would be a 1 in ten gadzillion occurance. for the Gene to appear in a human unrelated to the existing navigator lines would be unheard of, although not impossable.


any old psyker will do in a pinch, but they can't do the job properly. and there is the issue of the ship not having a Geller Field.

So navigators are rare? What do people like rouge traders or converted planets use?

they use navigators from the Nobilite which are loaned to the Rogue Trader on a more or less permant basis for a substantial fee.

every navigtor is born on Terra among the Nobilite houses.

BaronIveagh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

So navigators are rare? What do people like rouge traders or converted planets use?

The Navigator houses rent them out to Rogue Traders, etc.

That kind of puts navigators in reach of the tau. They could "empress" AKA kidnapping some of them to work for them. Maybe not enough to field a fleet, but enough to play around with them and maybe see how they work. You know, if the tau was better at warp based tech.

nomotog wrote:
That kind of puts navigators in reach of the tau. They could "empress" AKA kidnapping some of them to work for them. Maybe not enough to field a fleet, but enough to play around with them and maybe see how they work. You know, if the tau was better at warp based tech.

Shhhhh... that's logic!

nomotog wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

So navigators are rare? What do people like rouge traders or converted planets use?

The Navigator houses rent them out to Rogue Traders, etc.

That kind of puts navigators in reach of the tau. They could "empress" AKA kidnapping some of them to work for them. Maybe not enough to field a fleet, but enough to play around with them and maybe see how they work. You know, if the tau was better at warp based tech.

yeah, they could do that, but it wouldn't be enough to make a fleet out of.