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Grey Templar wrote:

nomotog wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

So navigators are rare? What do people like rouge traders or converted planets use?

The Navigator houses rent them out to Rogue Traders, etc.

That kind of puts navigators in reach of the tau. They could "empress" AKA kidnapping some of them to work for them. Maybe not enough to field a fleet, but enough to play around with them and maybe see how they work. You know, if the tau was better at warp based tech.

yeah, they could do that, but it wouldn't be enough to make a fleet out of.

Ya and something tells me that stealing a navigator gets a SM boot put somewhere unpleasant, but you know in general I think the tau lag behind other races in warp tech. At the very least the tau have to R&D it all second hand sense the tau themselves can't do it.

nomotog wrote:
Ya and something tells me that stealing a navigator gets a SM boot put somewhere unpleasant, but you know in general I think the tau lag behind other races in warp tech. At the very least the tau have to R&D it all second hand sense the tau themselves can't do it.

Actually, navigators and the ships they are on get lost all the time without anyone ever knowing what happened. As long as the Tau could keep a lid on it, it's quite possible they have a navigator or more in custody for study. Theoretically, the Tau could even get kroot or Deimurge assistance to produce their warp drives.

The Tau create technology as they see fit.

If they ever needed a means to traverse massive portions of the galaxy they would most likely devise it. The thing about warp travel is that it creates as many problems as it tends to solve and is heavily reliant on a frail little corpse sitting on the most expensive chair ever built.

If the Tau can consolidate more of the Eastern Fringe into an alliance there is a solid chance they will create a faster means of FTL to suit their needs.

Given the Tau seem to be moving toward some sort of relationship with the Eldar, I suspect you're right.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau create technology as they see fit.

If they ever needed a means to traverse massive portions of the galaxy they would most likely devise it. The thing about warp travel is that it creates as many problems as it tends to solve and is heavily reliant on a frail little corpse sitting on the most expensive chair ever built.

If the Tau can consolidate more of the Eastern Fringe into an alliance there is a solid chance they will create a faster means of FTL to suit their needs.

Too bad they don't have Necron inertia eliminating drives. lol

Nerivant wrote:
"Even the Fire Caste’s standard issue
weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing
even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability."
-Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 366.

And isn't that from the same book that states about Tau sterilization of Human population?
I thought Tau fans said everything in this book is not fluff?

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
"Even the Fire Caste’s standard issue
weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing
even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability."
-Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 366.

And isn't that from the same book that states about Tau sterilization of Human population?
I thought Tau fans said everything in this book is not fluff?

Well it is a from FFG,a third party and a company which got ship sizes wrong,population of the hive worlds wrong,well the majority of sh** down.

That book was also written by Andy Hoare a Tau fanboy,his Rouge Trader novels sucked(he also thinks that the space battles in 40k occur at hundreds of kilometres,which is contradicted by majority of sources,thinks that 40k ships only have single G accelerations in contrast to the GW material which states high c fractional speeds,the Imperium doesn't have railguns etc....).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Tau technology has hit a brick wall, it hasn't advanced in any noticeable fashion since the Tau were rediscovered, the only changes are how they bolt things together. Even less so, considering their meteoric rise is due to suspiciously convenient discovery of useful alien technology.

Oh, and example of Tau Stagnation, they've known the Imperium for at least a hundred years according to the current timeline, probably multiple centuries.

Pulse Guns haven't changed at all in that time to our knowledge.

Not true, as we see in IA:3. The older Tau ships from the period of Initial Imperial contact are slowly being replaced by newer models (IA:3 and BFG FAQ2010)

Their basic infantry weapons have not really changed, but plasma weapons such as the pulse rifle are generally acknowledged as some of the most powerful mass produced infantry arms in 40k (in fluff and the 40k RPGs, anyway). They're quite comparable to bolters, which they have superior range compared to. Further, new marks of power armor come into existence all the time.

Unlike the Imperium, Tau technology is *not* at a standstill.

Those new ships still suck compared to the Lunar class cruiser and oh I would use FFG RPGs as a example of anything as they while fun also get the majority of things wrong.
After all Tau can afford to equip their troops with high end gear because unlike the IOM they're small and they don't have problems with the Warp,logistics etc.....

Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?

IvanTih wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
"Even the Fire Caste’s standard issue
weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing
even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability."
-Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 366.

And isn't that from the same book that states about Tau sterilization of Human population?
I thought Tau fans said everything in this book is not fluff?

Well it is a from FFG,a third party and a company which got ship sizes wrong,population of the hive worlds wrong,well the majority of sh** down.

That book was also written by Andy Hoare a Tau fanboy,his Rouge Trader novels sucked(he also thinks that the space battles in 40k occur at hundreds of kilometres,which is contradicted by majority of sources,thinks that 40k ships only have single G accelerations in contrast to the GW material which states high c fractional speeds,the Imperium doesn't have railguns etc....).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Tau technology has hit a brick wall, it hasn't advanced in any noticeable fashion since the Tau were rediscovered, the only changes are how they bolt things together. Even less so, considering their meteoric rise is due to suspiciously convenient discovery of useful alien technology.

Oh, and example of Tau Stagnation, they've known the Imperium for at least a hundred years according to the current timeline, probably multiple centuries.

Pulse Guns haven't changed at all in that time to our knowledge.

Not true, as we see in IA:3. The older Tau ships from the period of Initial Imperial contact are slowly being replaced by newer models (IA:3 and BFG FAQ2010)

Their basic infantry weapons have not really changed, but plasma weapons such as the pulse rifle are generally acknowledged as some of the most powerful mass produced infantry arms in 40k (in fluff and the 40k RPGs, anyway). They're quite comparable to bolters, which they have superior range compared to. Further, new marks of power armor come into existence all the time.

Unlike the Imperium, Tau technology is *not* at a standstill.

Those new ships still suck compared to the Lunar class cruiser and oh I would use FFG RPGs as a example of anything as they while fun also get the majority of things wrong.
After all Tau can afford to equip their troops with high end gear because unlike the IOM they're small and they don't have problems with the Warp,logistics etc.....

Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?

1. That doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

2. It still shows that the Tau are advancing at a faster rate than the Imperium.

I don't think anyone can debate the point of the Tau advancing faster than the Imperium. They do. That's it.

The Imperium is so big, and those responsible for technology (the Mechanicum) so unreliable, that large scale advancement is difficult, and sometimes seen as HERESY! Isolated Forge Worlds may take possession of an STC or advance one piece of tech on their own, but they only have a small sphere of influence, unless its 'sanctioned' by Mars, which will put it in large scale production. The Tau don't have this problem. They're small, and isolated, so they have a unified core of people adapting and creating new technology. They can easily distribute it to the populace and the army. If they expand they NEED long distance and fast FTL, which they lack currently. Whether it's using human navigators or creating some form of Necron/Tyranid method, they need to be able keep their unity else they will suffer the same problem the Imperium faces now, and their advancement will halt.

And the Tau really don't understand The Warp. They know it's there, they may know there are bad things in it, but they have next to know understanding of how to use it due to a lack of significant Warp presence and an unwillingness in their allies (Kroot) to share their capability. Someone mentioned that they had new drives that are as fast as the Imperiums. If someone would like to state the source it would be much appreciated. Does it state if they can travel the same distances the Imperial Navy can? Because that's the Imperium's greatest advantage, besides it's size : the capability to travel from the the Damocles Gulf to Holy Terra in one jump (albeit with added risk).

Now, they Tau are essentially cut off from the rest of the Galaxy by Warp Storms (correct?). If they are largely protected from the Imperium by a Warp Storm that only has a small gap in it, it works both ways. The Imperium, if they were smart, would keep them in their little bubble. Like a miniature Cadian Gate, just with a lot less threatening and powerful enemies on the other side.
Please, correct me on any of the above paragraph, I'm mainly drawing from memory.

Tau drives can't go as far as Imperial drives can. they simply can't skim the warp for extended periods of time.


they might have fixed the problem with the speed(taking 5 times as long) but the distance limitations will still be in place.


the Tau are no longer cut off by Warp storms. the Warp is actually quite calm around them. this is a big problem for them.

they WERE cut off by a Warp Storm. this warp storm's time dialation is what caused them to go from club thumping primatives to the space faring race they are today.

the Warp Storm just happened to disappate the moment the Etherials showed up(que MORE conspericy theories)

Grey Templar wrote:Tau drives can't go as far as Imperial drives can. they simply can't skim the warp for extended periods of time.


they might have fixed the problem with the speed(taking 5 times as long) but the distance limitations will still be in place.


the Tau are no longer cut off by Warp storms. the Warp is actually quite calm around them. this is a big problem for them.

they WERE cut off by a Warp Storm. this warp storm's time dialation is what caused them to go from club thumping primatives to the space faring race they are today.

the Warp Storm just happened to disappate the moment the Etherials showed up(que MORE conspericy theories)

The Tau weren't in the Warp Storm, there were surrounded by Warp Storms. Huge difference.

And where are you getting that last bit?

the Tau codex

Grey Templar wrote:Tau drives can't go as far as Imperial drives can. they simply can't skim the warp for extended periods of time.


they might have fixed the problem with the speed(taking 5 times as long) but the distance limitations will still be in place.


the Tau are no longer cut off by Warp storms. the Warp is actually quite calm around them. this is a big problem for them.

they WERE cut off by a Warp Storm. this warp storm's time dialation is what caused them to go from club thumping primatives to the space faring race they are today.

the Warp Storm just happened to disappate the moment the Etherials showed up(que MORE conspericy theories)

That's in the post.

I said that.

We don't know if there was any time dilation effect. They were slightly more than club thumping primitives. They were in at the time of first contact in a hunter-gatherer or gathered in limited agricultural communities. Not really that far off from where the human race was 6000 years ago. If they are no longer cut off then it makes bigger problems for The Imperium, allowing the Tau to spread in all directions rather than just through The Gulf.

That's complete speculation with little or no fact to back it up.

Grey Templar wrote:the Tau codex

Mind being a bit more specific? I don't have the time to read the entire codex looking for a single sentence that I'm pretty sure isn't even there.

Nerivant wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Tau drives can't go as far as Imperial drives can. they simply can't skim the warp for extended periods of time.


they might have fixed the problem with the speed(taking 5 times as long) but the distance limitations will still be in place.


the Tau are no longer cut off by Warp storms. the Warp is actually quite calm around them. this is a big problem for them.

they WERE cut off by a Warp Storm. this warp storm's time dialation is what caused them to go from club thumping primatives to the space faring race they are today.

the Warp Storm just happened to disappate the moment the Etherials showed up(que MORE conspericy theories)

The Tau weren't in the Warp Storm, there were surrounded by Warp Storms. Huge difference.

And where are you getting that last bit?

Gasp! This means that the Tau could of perhaps actually innovated their technology in 6k years of realspace... meaning... The whole warp space debate is non-existant!

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Tau drives can't go as far as Imperial drives can. they simply can't skim the warp for extended periods of time.


they might have fixed the problem with the speed(taking 5 times as long) but the distance limitations will still be in place.


the Tau are no longer cut off by Warp storms. the Warp is actually quite calm around them. this is a big problem for them.

they WERE cut off by a Warp Storm. this warp storm's time dialation is what caused them to go from club thumping primatives to the space faring race they are today.

the Warp Storm just happened to disappate the moment the Etherials showed up(que MORE conspericy theories)

The Tau weren't in the Warp Storm, there were surrounded by Warp Storms. Huge difference.

And where are you getting that last bit?

Gasp! This means that the Tau could of perhaps actually innovated their technology in 6k years of realspace... meaning... The whole warp space debate is non-existant!

I don't think there really was an argument. Regardless of any effects the Warp Storm has had on their growth, they are where they are now. How long it has taken them to get to where they are has no relevance in this discussion.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Tau drives can't go as far as Imperial drives can. they simply can't skim the warp for extended periods of time.


they might have fixed the problem with the speed(taking 5 times as long) but the distance limitations will still be in place.


the Tau are no longer cut off by Warp storms. the Warp is actually quite calm around them. this is a big problem for them.

they WERE cut off by a Warp Storm. this warp storm's time dialation is what caused them to go from club thumping primatives to the space faring race they are today.

the Warp Storm just happened to disappate the moment the Etherials showed up(que MORE conspericy theories)

The Tau weren't in the Warp Storm, there were surrounded by Warp Storms. Huge difference.

And where are you getting that last bit?

Gasp! This means that the Tau could of perhaps actually innovated their technology in 6k years of realspace... meaning... The whole warp space debate is non-existant!

Heresy! No xenos scum could surpass the Imperium in any way! The Emperor protects!

Mobilise the Deathwatch I say.

Yeah, he's talking out his orifice, there's nothing in the codex that even remotely links the dissipation of the war storm with the rise of the ethereals. Page six just says that the next 1000 years after the Ethereals came along was a time of explosive expansion during which time the Tau launched their first spacecraft...

It's my understanding, from previous parts of this discussion, that the trouble with IoM reaching Tau space is due to the Damocles Gulf which is far from the light of the emperor which means warp travel becomes increasingly riskier...yadda yadda yadda. Yeah, the warp storms are gone but warp is never "calm" unless you mean that you only lose 10% (made-up number because I don't know exactly how dangerous it is) of the ships that enter..

iproxtaco wrote:Mobilise the Deathwatch I say.

They should fare better than the BT's.

IvanTih wrote:
Those new ships still suck compared to the Lunar class cruiser and oh I would use FFG RPGs as a example of anything as they while fun also get the majority of things wrong.
After all Tau can afford to equip their troops with high end gear because unlike the IOM they're small and they don't have problems with the Warp,logistics etc.....

Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?

That's sort of funny considering the IoM lost a Lunar and a Dauntless (and 8 escorts) to them at Taros, and had an Overlord and Dictator badly damaged.


GW has declared it fluff. Therefor it's one more conflicting fluff on the Tau.

Please, list Imperial advancements that post date about M36, which was pretty much the last time innovation beyond new weapons configurations on an existing platform took place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:
It's my understanding, from previous parts of this discussion, that the trouble with IoM reaching Tau space is due to the Damocles Gulf which is far from the light of the emperor which means warp travel becomes increasingly riskier...yadda yadda yadda. Yeah, the warp storms are gone but warp is never "calm" unless you mean that you only lose 10% (made-up number because I don't know exactly how dangerous it is) of the ships that enter..

Actually, given the numbers for a single warp anomaly over a year in one of the RT source books, it's likely a lot higher then 10% since it's eaten about 30 ships that year and not been considered a serious enough issue to nail down where it is exactly.

IvanTih wrote:

Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?

Yes please. I always wonder how it is they advance. From the outside, it looks like they don't advance at all.

I don't think anyone can argue that the tau aren't advancing. they are not only advancing they are doing it fast. Just look at their ships. They went from basically boxes on sticks that fought like boxes on sticks all the way to massive super carriers that can deploy swarms of missiles and strike craft. Sure they don't have titans or SM, but I honestly doubt they will ever have them. Titans and SMs don't quite fit in the tau doctrine.

On a related note, when are they going to make a new pulse rifle?

Every time they "discover" a new predator / land raider / leman russ variant that they manage to convince the Mechanicus is a new STC variant instead of something cobbled together from other parts is certainly an advancement.

nomotog wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?

Yes please. I always wonder how it is they advance. From the outside, it looks like they don't advance at all.

I don't think anyone can argue that the tau aren't advancing. they are not only advancing fast. Just look at their ships really. They went from basically boxes on sticks that fought like boxes on sticks all the way to massive super carriers that can deploy swarms of missiles and strike craft. Sure they don't have titans or SM, but I honestly doubt they will ever have them. Titans and SMs don't quite fit in the tau doctrine.

On a related note, when are they going to make a new pulse rifle?

Maybe never. They seem to be working on scaling down Ion weapons.

Ion rifles, hooooooooo!

nomotog wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?

Yes please. I always wonder how it is they advance. From the outside, it looks like they don't advance at all.

I don't think anyone can argue that the tau aren't advancing. they are not only advancing fast. Just look at their ships really. They went from basically boxes on sticks that fought like boxes on sticks all the way to massive super carriers that can deploy swarms of missiles and strike craft. Sure they don't have titans or SM, but I honestly doubt they will ever have them. Titans and SMs don't quite fit in the tau doctrine.

On a related note, when are they going to make a new pulse rifle?

Same for mankind, their ships went from the same, to what they are now : equal or better ships than the Tau's. The point is that they are advancing quickly when the Imperium is not on any large scale.

Melissia wrote:Every time they "discover" a new predator / land raider / leman russ variant that they manage to convince the Mechanicus is a new STC variant instead of something cobbled together from other parts is certainly an advancement.

Can you give a better example? Maybe something that tells me how they come up with new things. Do they do research, and how do they pass off something old as new? Also, is putting different guns on a take advancement? It sounds like a basic retrofit to me.

iproxtaco wrote:

nomotog wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?

Yes please. I always wonder how it is they advance. From the outside, it looks like they don't advance at all.

I don't think anyone can argue that the tau aren't advancing. they are not only advancing fast. Just look at their ships really. They went from basically boxes on sticks that fought like boxes on sticks all the way to massive super carriers that can deploy swarms of missiles and strike craft. Sure they don't have titans or SM, but I honestly doubt they will ever have them. Titans and SMs don't quite fit in the tau doctrine.

On a related note, when are they going to make a new pulse rifle?

Same for mankind, their ships went from the same, to what they are now : equal or better ships than the Tau's. The point is that they are advancing quickly when the Imperium is not on any large scale.

I was looking for examples of late advancement. I know they did a ton of advancing way back when, but as I understand it they have stoped. More or less.

Also are you just blaming the IoM's size? You would think size whould be a good thing in R&D?

hmmm, i could have sworn i read that in the Tau codex.


the Warp Storms certaintly calmed around the time the Tau began expanding their empire.

nomotog wrote:Can you give a better example? Maybe something that tells me how they come up with new things. Do they do research, and how do they pass off something old as new? Also, is putting different guns on a take advancement? It sounds like a basic retrofit to me.

Actually they're more likely to pass something new off as old.

As for research, sure. There was a specific attachment to plasma weapons in Dark Heresy which was developed to allow the guns to safely vent in case of an overheat. It didn't always work and when it failed it was a drastic failure, but it was still a vast improvement over the normal risk of the weapon.

Melissia wrote:

nomotog wrote:Can you give a better example? Maybe something that tells me how they come up with new things. Do they do research, and how do they pass off something old as new? Also, is putting different guns on a take advancement? It sounds like a basic retrofit to me.

Actually they're more likely to pass something new off as old.

As for research, sure. There was a specific attachment to plasma weapons in Dark Heresy which was developed to allow the guns to safely vent in case of an overheat. It didn't always work and when it failed it was a drastic failure, but it was still a vast improvement over the normal risk of the weapon.

Ya I meant new as old, but I flubbed the line. Thanks for the info.

Melissia wrote:Every time they "discover" a new predator / land raider / leman russ variant that they manage to convince the Mechanicus is a new STC variant instead of something cobbled together from other parts is certainly an advancement.

Current fluff on the Leman Russ variants is that they have 'always' existed, so not a good example. Stormravens have 'always' existed. The pred and landraider variants that haven't 'always' existed are still only new weapon configurations on the same platform that can effectively be swapped out for one another in a chapters forges. While that is innovation, it's not really advancement. AFAIK no 'new' weapon that hasn't already existed before has been strapped into a landraider and called STC. Even the Crusader really is just a rack of bolters tied to a common trigger. Any 'new' tanks or equipment that FW produces tend to get fluff that they have 'always' existed, but are just rare.

iproxtaco wrote:
Same for mankind, their ships went from the same, to what they are now : equal or better ships than the Tau's. The point is that they are advancing quickly when the Imperium is not on any large scale.

It's not clear from whence the Lunar class comes, though some have suggested that it's been around for longer then the M36 date and just was sidelined due to being slower and less powerful then the Murder that it replaced. Ships using the same design elements, such as the Sword, were introduced as early as the Heresy (since Garro mentions them by name during Flight of the Eisenstein as replacing the earlier classes including the Eisenstein itself).

Current Imperial ships are largely inferior to their predecessors in terms of speed, firepower, and carrier launch capability. They do have superior armor, however, at least on the prow, and greater torpedo launch capability. Though this is not as great an advantage as it might otherwise be, since Imperial torps are generally dumb missiles that just go straight ahead. Where imperial ships excel is they're easy to manufacture compared with previous models. Except the ones with fluff that says they aren't.