Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Stormravens havn't "always" existed.


the Ad Mech found the STC for them.

the GKs and Blood Angels are using them in field tests before they are released to all Astartes chapters.

nomtog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Same for mankind, their ships went from the same, to what they are now : equal or better ships than the Tau's. The point is that they are advancing quickly when the Imperium is not on any large scale.

I was looking for examples of late advancement. I know they did a ton of advancing way back when, but as I understand it they have stoped. More or less.

Also are you just blaming the IoM's size? You would think size whould be a good thing in R&D?

Not in that statement no. I was simply saying that using the example of how much the Tau have advanced their ships is pointless because the Imperium has advanced as far or further in that respect.
In a previous post however, I blamed it's size, thus the relative isolation of it's Forge Worlds and the difficulty the it has in distributing any advancements. I would blame the Mechanicum more. They are relatively independent, serving their own motives and agendas, have near complete control over the manufacturing or the Imperium's military manufacturing and have needless and dogmatic beliefs over their technology that hinders any potential advancement rather that helping the Imperium. The Tau have no such problems, but may have in the future, and may even have a worse situation due to an extreme lack in long distance FTL and an already implemented Caste system.

iproxtaco wrote:
Not in that statement no. I was simply saying that using the example of how much the Tau have advanced their ships is pointless because the Imperium has advanced as far or further in that respect.
In a previous post however, I blamed it's size, thus the relative isolation of it's Forge Worlds and the difficulty the it has in distributing any advancements. I would blame the Mechanicum more. They are relatively independent, serving their own motives and agendas, have near complete control over the manufacturing or the Imperium's military manufacturing and have needless and dogmatic beliefs over their technology that hinders any potential advancement rather that helping the Imperium. The Tau have no such problems, but may have in the future, and may even have a worse situation due to an extreme lack in long distance FTL and an already implemented Caste system.

The problem there is the Imperium 'were' superior to the Tau, but their ships are regressing to simpler and simpler designs due to the lack of the ability to maintain older systems.

I've been mulling over this for a while, and I might point out that a Imperial ships speed through the warp is actually relative, and changes based on warp currents, since a ships warp drive doesn't actually move it through the warp per se, but allows the ship to transition from real-space to warp space, where it travels along the currents. (Which would explain why most ships follow specific routes through the warp rather then just moving willy-nilly around in it.)

iproxtaco wrote:

nomtog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Same for mankind, their ships went from the same, to what they are now : equal or better ships than the Tau's. The point is that they are advancing quickly when the Imperium is not on any large scale.

I was looking for examples of late advancement. I know they did a ton of advancing way back when, but as I understand it they have stoped. More or less.

Also are you just blaming the IoM's size? You would think size whould be a good thing in R&D?

Not in that statement no. I was simply saying that using the example of how much the Tau have advanced their ships is pointless because the Imperium has advanced as far or further in that respect.
In a previous post however, I blamed it's size, thus the relative isolation of it's Forge Worlds and the difficulty the it has in distributing any advancements. I would blame the Mechanicum more. They are relatively independent, serving their own motives and agendas, have near complete control over the manufacturing or the Imperium's military manufacturing and have needless and dogmatic beliefs over their technology that hinders any potential advancement rather that helping the Imperium. The Tau have no such problems, but may have in the future, and may even have a worse situation due to an extreme lack in long distance FTL and an already implemented Caste system.

Oh. Well I don't think tau advancement is pointless. The IoM might have super advance vehicles that can tap dance, but if they don't advance, then the tau will just build vehicles that can dance the Charleston and blow away anything the IoM has.

The tau won't get supper huge till after they have supper fast drives. You need the chicken before you can get the egg

Grey Templar wrote:Stormravens havn't "always" existed.


the Ad Mech found the STC for them.

the GKs and Blood Angels are using them in field tests before they are released to all Astartes chapters.

"The Stormraven Gunship has been in the Grey Knights service for millennia.' Codex: Grey Knights, pg 37.

BaronIveagh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Not in that statement no. I was simply saying that using the example of how much the Tau have advanced their ships is pointless because the Imperium has advanced as far or further in that respect.
In a previous post however, I blamed it's size, thus the relative isolation of it's Forge Worlds and the difficulty the it has in distributing any advancements. I would blame the Mechanicum more. They are relatively independent, serving their own motives and agendas, have near complete control over the manufacturing or the Imperium's military manufacturing and have needless and dogmatic beliefs over their technology that hinders any potential advancement rather that helping the Imperium. The Tau have no such problems, but may have in the future, and may even have a worse situation due to an extreme lack in long distance FTL and an already implemented Caste system.

The problem there is the Imperium 'were' superior to the Tau, but their ships are regressing to simpler and simpler designs due to the lack of the ability to maintain older systems.

I've been mulling over this for a while, and I might point out that a Imperial ships speed through the warp is actually relative, and changes based on warp currents, since a ships warp drive doesn't actually move it through the warp per se, but allows the ship to transition from real-space to warp space, where it travels along the currents. (Which would explain why most ships follow specific routes through the warp rather then just moving willy-nilly around in it.)

It is relative. The speed a ship travels is not definite or set, and they don't have a maximum and minimum like a car. They Navigators just 'steer' the ship through the warp using it's currents and energies to propel it. They basically use the Astronomican as a reference point. The Tau method is described as being as fast as Imperial methods now. They main disadvantage is that they can't navigate, they can only jump to the point they have set. It's safer (I think), but it has nothing like the range of Imperial Warp travel. The Tau would be better setting their minds towards developing a similar method to the Necrons or Tyranids.

I don't think it's pointless to advance either. It will just be difficult for them to maintain the same level if they grow to any significant size. They'll suffer many of the same logistical and idealogical problems as the Imperium has now.

iproxtaco wrote:Mobilise the Deathwatch I say.

I agree! If Cadians and Elysians make good miners imagine what a Space Marine could do to a pile of minerals! He could outwork a standard human a couple hundred times over!

If Terminator Armour's 2+ save as opposed to the 3+ of the Crisis suit isn't proof of TDA being better because of "game balance", how comes that an FAQ is so commonly accepted as proof that the Tau have overcome the boarding issue? I'm sensing hypocrisy that isn't beneficial for "my" side, and as such I'm lashing out! RAAARGH!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:If Terminator Armour's 2+ save as opposed to the 3+ of the Crisis suit isn't proof of TDA being better because of "game balance", how comes that an FAQ is so commonly accepted as proof that the Tau have overcome the boarding issue? I'm sensing hypocrisy that isn't beneficial for "my" side, and as such I'm lashing out! RAAARGH!

Because the FAQ specifically states that you can take Fire Warriors specific trained to fend off boarders.

The answer is pretty obvious.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:If Terminator Armour's 2+ save as opposed to the 3+ of the Crisis suit isn't proof of TDA being better because of "game balance", how comes that an FAQ is so commonly accepted as proof that the Tau have overcome the boarding issue? I'm sensing hypocrisy that isn't beneficial for "my" side, and as such I'm lashing out! RAAARGH!

I say that TDA is the closest equivilant of a Battlesuit. the Battlesuit is more of a cross between a Dreadnought and Terminator armor.


the 3+ save is compansated for by the suit having 2 wounds.

and the Fire Warrior upgrade for ships only makes you as good as Imperial Guard boarders in a game that abstracts things to a great degree.

Space marines still get a +2 on the boarding roll.

Grey Templar wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:If Terminator Armour's 2+ save as opposed to the 3+ of the Crisis suit isn't proof of TDA being better because of "game balance", how comes that an FAQ is so commonly accepted as proof that the Tau have overcome the boarding issue? I'm sensing hypocrisy that isn't beneficial for "my" side, and as such I'm lashing out! RAAARGH!

I say that TDA is the closest equivilant of a Battlesuit. the Battlesuit is more of a cross between a Dreadnought and Terminator armor.


the 3+ save is compansated for by the suit having 2 wounds.

and the Fire Warrior upgrade for ships only makes you as good as Imperial Guard boarders in a game that abstracts things to a great degree.

Space marines still get a +2 on the boarding roll.

Yeah, but there's a difference between boarding a ship with a +2 bonus and boarding a ship with half it's normal boarding value AND a +2 bonus.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:If Terminator Armour's 2+ save as opposed to the 3+ of the Crisis suit isn't proof of TDA being better because of "game balance", how comes that an FAQ is so commonly accepted as proof that the Tau have overcome the boarding issue? I'm sensing hypocrisy that isn't beneficial for "my" side, and as such I'm lashing out! RAAARGH!

I say that TDA is the closest equivilant of a Battlesuit. the Battlesuit is more of a cross between a Dreadnought and Terminator armor.


the 3+ save is compansated for by the suit having 2 wounds.

and the Fire Warrior upgrade for ships only makes you as good as Imperial Guard boarders in a game that abstracts things to a great degree.

Space marines still get a +2 on the boarding roll.

Yeah, but there's a difference between boarding a ship with a +2 bonus and boarding a ship with half it's normal boarding value AND a +2 bonus.

Obviously, but it still doesn't make them reliably equal to Space Marines during boarding actions.

The point about using rules for BFG and not for the 40k skirmish is valid, but it's not as clear cut as that. The BFG game is more fluff oriented and influenced than it's counterpart, and is not OVERLY balanced to the point where the fluff and rules are completely separate. You can't have a game where a single Tactical Squad can take on an entire IG army, it has to be so that every army can compete (disregarding codices that are out of date). The fluff for space battles does not have huge imbalances between the races, so the rules aren't changed too much. Tau vessels having specially trained Tau Marines isn't exactly crazy. It's more a fluff oriented rule than a balance one.

Oh, I agree with the notion that it makes sense but, again, we're seeing a double standard. When I point to Kill-ships they're dismissed as "tech heresy" and "only being mentioned in one source" and yet the Tau anti-boarding parties are completely kosher, despite them only being mentioned in one source.

That said, are specific Chapters represented in BFG? We have to remember that the Templars are not only masters of Space warfare (as illustrated by Helbrecht receiving command at Armageddon) but also CC masters and as such better at boarding actions than "normal" Astartes.

I'll have to agree with the Templars losing a ground war, but considering the difficulty the Tau would have in countering a fleet the size of the BT fleet, I don't see why the BT would bother with ground combat at all.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Oh, I agree with the notion that it makes sense but, again, we're seeing a double standard. When I point to Kill-ships they're dismissed as "tech heresy" and "only being mentioned in one source" and yet the Tau anti-boarding parties are completely kosher, despite them only being mentioned in one source.

That said, are specific Chapters represented in BFG? We have to remember that the Templars are not only masters of Space warfare (as illustrated by Helbrecht receiving command at Armageddon) but also CC masters and as such better at boarding actions than "normal" Astartes.

I'll have to agree with the Templars losing a ground war, but considering the difficulty the Tau would have in countering a fleet the size of the BT fleet, I don't see why the BT would bother with ground combat at all.

Actually, it's from Two sources, IA:3 and FAQ 2010.

And it says in their own fluff that kill ships are tech heresy.

The problem is that SM ship fluff is wildly conflicted, even to what weapons they are equipped with. In Fluff the Codex Astartes forbids powerful anti-ship weapons (which for some reason people interpret to mean lances) and arguments that there are non-codex chapters have fallen on deaf ears at GW. (One more reason I hate Ward)

Some Chapters are in BFG (thanks to IA:X) However, BT's are (specifically stated) represented by the more generic SM crusade fleet list. It allows you to take the absurdly powerful fortress monastery, but is otherwise similar to the basic SM list.

BaronIveagh wrote:Current fluff on the Leman Russ variants is that they have 'always' existed

Yes, that is what they told the mechanicus isn't it!

And there's many other more minor evidences of advancement such as the plasmagun attachment I noted earlier.

Its no question the Imperium will get them one day. But the Imperium is getting attacked by Chaos constintly, Orks, Tyranids, and starting with necs. Tau isnt really a threat. Matter of fact Tau is fightin the Necs, Tyranids, and Orks. So at the moment they are "helping" the Imperium. When the Imperium will weaken atleast one one of those armys, they might conider attacking the Tau. But the fear that if they will take many of their good units a way to fight something critical might happen.

Melissia wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Current fluff on the Leman Russ variants is that they have 'always' existed

Yes, that is what they told the mechanicus isn't it!

And there's many other more minor evidences of advancement such as the plasmagun attachment I noted earlier.

Wait, the Mechanicus told the mechanicus they always existed? Since they're the ones that make the Leman Russ...

I might point out that the plasmagun vents mentioned are also not commonly used because they have a tendency to kill the person using it, more effectively then the gun merely overheating. And, I might point out that while it's 'new' it's not stated how this came about. 'New' could be 'new' like the Lightening being re-discovered or 'new' like 'Hey, look what I made!'

AlmightyWalrus wrote:If Terminator Armour's 2+ save as opposed to the 3+ of the Crisis suit isn't proof of TDA being better because of "game balance", how comes that an FAQ is so commonly accepted as proof that the Tau have overcome the boarding issue? I'm sensing hypocrisy that isn't beneficial for "my" side, and as such I'm lashing out! RAAARGH!

Keep in mind that while TDA provides a 2+/5+sv and Relentless over a 3+ on a basic Veteran, the Crisis Suit provides a 3+ over a 4+ , +1W, 2 Strength, +1 Toughness, plus Jet Infantry, Acute Senses and Relentless over a Fire Warrior.

As for the Templars fleet, lets be honest, when it comes to Space combat, the playing field is far more level on a ship for ship basis than in ground warfare, SM ship in general are poorly designed for ship to ship combat relative to the Imperial Navy or Tau, and we're talking a fleet with hundreds if not thousands of ships that presides over dozens of worlds compared with...*maybe* half a dozen battle barges, maybe a dozen Strike cruishers, and a couple dozen escort vessels?

The Imperium as a whole would have no problems wiping out the Tau and not even noticing if they truly cared to do so, the Damocles Gulf crusade was not exactly a taxing effort on the part of the Imperium, but the Black Templars alone? They wouldn't stand a chance.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Actually, it's from Two sources, IA:3 and FAQ 2010.

And it says in their own fluff that kill ships are tech heresy.

The problem is that SM ship fluff is wildly conflicted, even to what weapons they are equipped with. In Fluff the Codex Astartes forbids powerful anti-ship weapons (which for some reason people interpret to mean lances) and arguments that there are non-codex chapters have fallen on deaf ears at GW. (One more reason I hate Ward)

Some Chapters are in BFG (thanks to IA:X) However, BT's are (specifically stated) represented by the more generic SM crusade fleet list. It allows you to take the absurdly powerful fortress monastery, but is otherwise similar to the basic SM list.

Where is it described as Tech Heresy? I don't find anything about that in the DW rulebook.

As for BTs and lances, what's the argument it's opponent's (I understand that you were in favour of marine lance weapons, yes?) are using? If it's only the Codex Astartes, why would the Templars even pause to consider it?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Where is it described as Tech Heresy? I don't find anything about that in the DW rulebook.

As for BTs and lances, what's the argument it's opponent's (I understand that you were in favour of marine lance weapons, yes?) are using? If it's only the Codex Astartes, why would the Templars even pause to consider it?

Because it's not like the completely ignore the Codex, and the Imperial Navy and Inquisition actually will pay attention to that more than other...indiscretions. They actively watch that more than other things, precisely for the reason that it gives them the power to challenge the Imperial Navy directly should they rebel. The Inquisition and Imperial Navy do not like Space Marines having vessels designed for ship to ship combat as opposed to planetary invasion. In Battlefleet Gothic, Lances are very rare for Astartes fleets and IIRC restricted to escort vessels. Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges do not bear them.

Space Marines are only forbidden from having strong space fleets by the Codex.


the Codex is NOT enforced, its done on a Voluntary basis with the Imperium as a rule wanting it to be followed.


however, there is nothing keeping a space marine chapter from giving the codex the finger and having any dang ship they please. and if the chapter makes themselves irreplacable the Imperium as a whole can't do anything about it. the Inquisition doesn't like the BT and SWs nopt following the Codex, but since those chapters are utterly loyal and do so many good things then the Inquisition can't, won't, and don't want, to call them out.


If a Chapter stays loyal and fights to the utmost for the Imperium they can fight the war in any way they please.

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marines are only forbidden from having strong space fleets by the Codex.


the Codex is NOT enforced, its done on a Voluntary basis with the Imperium as a rule wanting it to be followed.

It's enforced enough that the surviving loyalist Legions almost went to war to ensure that it became enforced, and the Inquisition will take action against chapters it can prove are in gross direct violation of it. The Inquisition and other chapters and forces may ignore breaches as long as it is convienient, but the Codex isn't supposed to be voluntary.

however, there is nothing keeping a space marine chapter from giving the codex the finger and having any dang ship they please.

Aside from the Inquisition, the Mechanicus and the Imperial Navy which make very sure that Space Marines don't generally get access to Lance equipped ships except in the most exceptional cases or on rare and small escort vessels?

the Inquisition doesn't like the BT and SWs nopt following the Codex, but since those chapters are utterly loyal and do so many good things then the Inquisition can't, won't, and don't want, to call them out.

They haven't wanted to...so far. If the Inquisition truly wanted to they'd have no problems wiping out the SW's or BT's. It may be bloody and destructive, but probably no more a memorable war than hundreds of others conflicts of the like that have occurred throughout the Imperium's history.

Regardless, from what we know of the BT's, there's nothing to suggest they have large numbers of lance equipped vessels.

If a Chapter stays loyal and fights to the utmost for the Imperium they can fight the war in any way they please.

I can think of several chapters which would disagree with that statement.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Current fluff on the Leman Russ variants is that they have 'always' existed

Yes, that is what they told the mechanicus isn't it!

And there's many other more minor evidences of advancement such as the plasmagun attachment I noted earlier.

Wait, the Mechanicus told the mechanicus they always existed? Since they're the ones that make the Leman Russ...

I might point out that the plasmagun vents mentioned are also not commonly used because they have a tendency to kill the person using it, more effectively then the gun merely overheating. And, I might point out that while it's 'new' it's not stated how this came about. 'New' could be 'new' like the Lightening being re-discovered or 'new' like 'Hey, look what I made!'

Which is an assumption on your part, but that doesn't mean ew things aren't being made.

Another example would be the various small arms (anywhere from a stub revolver to a boltgun) designs that are made by the gunsmiths at Gunmetal City, a notorious hive city in the Calixis sector. A person (of wealth I should note, or a governmental agency) can commission them to make a new design specifically tailored for their needs. ?These are brand new, unique designed, occasionally even mass produced in the more lucrative contracts (such as for PDF forces, for example, or for noble family's or a governor's own enforcers).

And then there's always the Inquisition, which does plenty of research and attempts to develop new tools and methods to combat the various terrors of the galaxy. And even the Ecclesiarchy is always researching chemistry, attempting to provide the right chemical reagents to bless its weapons and armor against the unholy.

it isn't so much that there is a taboo against new stuff, its more like they don't like altering old stuff.


you could build a whole new tank design from scratch and they would listin to you.

the problem arises when you take a Lemun Russ and alter it by putting a better engine or a different weapon on board.

and lets face it, its easier to alter existing designs then it is to start over. especially if those designs have beem tried and proven for 10,000+ years.


the way Forge Worlds get around this is by saying they "found an STC" for this upgrade. they then begin to mass produce it and the Mechanicus at large is none the wiser.

the Mechanicus isn't a united organization either. they have their own little power struggles within and will hide information from each other to further their own careers.

Melissia wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Current fluff on the Leman Russ variants is that they have 'always' existed

Yes, that is what they told the mechanicus isn't it!

And there's many other more minor evidences of advancement such as the plasmagun attachment I noted earlier.

Wait, the Mechanicus told the mechanicus they always existed? Since they're the ones that make the Leman Russ...

I might point out that the plasmagun vents mentioned are also not commonly used because they have a tendency to kill the person using it, more effectively then the gun merely overheating. And, I might point out that while it's 'new' it's not stated how this came about. 'New' could be 'new' like the Lightening being re-discovered or 'new' like 'Hey, look what I made!'

Which is an assumption on your part, but that doesn't mean ew things aren't being made.

Another example would be the various small arms (anywhere from a stub revolver to a boltgun) designs that are made by the gunsmiths at Gunmetal City, a notorious hive city in the Calixis sector. A person (of wealth I should note, or a governmental agency) can commission them to make a new design specifically tailored for their needs. ?These are brand new, unique designed, occasionally even mass produced in the more lucrative contracts (such as for PDF forces, for example, or for noble family's or a governor's own enforcers).

And then there's always the Inquisition, which does plenty of research and attempts to develop new tools and methods to combat the various terrors of the galaxy. And even the Ecclesiarchy is always researching chemistry, attempting to provide the right chemical reagents to bless its weapons and armor against the unholy.

The Imperium has steady improvements and mods going on but thats a given. Even a stagnant war machine is going to produce some variants and mods to existing models from time to time.

But you will never see the IoM create on a level the Tau do. The Tau actually invent new ships, tanks, skimmers, suits, rifles, shield gens, stealth fields, and drone technology. While the most basic grunt is carrying a weapon that outranges and out damages a Space Marines bolter.

Plus who knows what other technology they will integrate into their Empire in a few more expansions.

Yes... actually we will. I gave one example, brand new designs of weaponry and ammunition. But there's also the research of the Inquisition to produce new wargear for them to use as well.

It's likely that some of this research makes its way to the Imperium as a whole, but frequently it's too expensive for the Guard and not too useful for the Marines or Sisters (power armor being rather bad for sneaking around), so we don't see it in tabletop much.

BaronIveagh wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
Those new ships still suck compared to the Lunar class cruiser and oh I would use FFG RPGs as a example of anything as they while fun also get the majority of things wrong.
After all Tau can afford to equip their troops with high end gear because unlike the IOM they're small and they don't have problems with the Warp,logistics etc.....

Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?

That's sort of funny considering the IoM lost a Lunar and a Dauntless (and 8 escorts) to them at Taros, and had an Overlord and Dictator badly damaged.


GW has declared it fluff. Therefor it's one more conflicting fluff on the Tau.

Please, list Imperial advancements that post date about M36, which was pretty much the last time innovation beyond new weapons configurations on an existing platform took place.

That same Taros battle also shows Imperial ships not having shields(?),well that's usual for FW(the same idiotic company which thinks that the Caliban is still intact,makes every commander idiotic(example is Shadow Captain Moron from IA8)).BFG shows Tau ships as being weaker than the Imperial.

Let's see the Imperial advances:Experimental Torpedoes in Shadow Point,Lances perfected in M37 by Mars,improved very long plasma batteries,new ships classes,that planet Tesla which was full of experimental weaponry.

Vaktathi wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Where is it described as Tech Heresy? I don't find anything about that in the DW rulebook.

As for BTs and lances, what's the argument it's opponent's (I understand that you were in favour of marine lance weapons, yes?) are using? If it's only the Codex Astartes, why would the Templars even pause to consider it?

Because it's not like the completely ignore the Codex

Yes they do. The Templars don't care one bit about the so called "rules" in the Codex Astartes. Why the Mechanicus, arguably the most powerful "sub-faction" in the Imperium, would care about the Codex is beyond me. And what would the Imperial Navy do? Shoot them?

As for the Inquisition wiping out Chapters that ignore the CA; last time someone from the Inquisition tried to kill off the Space Wolves, the Wolves held out for 3 years and eventually sent the Inquisition packing.

While it is true that the Imperium almost was plunged into another civil war over the implementation of the Codex Astartes, you would do well to remember who it was that resisted it the most, aswell as how much the Templars cared once the Codex was implemented.

IvanTih wrote:

That same Taros battle also shows Imperial ships not having shields(?),well that's usual for FW(the same idiotic company which thinks that the Caliban is still intact,makes every commander idiotic(example is Shadow Captain Moron from IA8)).BFG shows Tau ships as being weaker than the Imperial.

Let's see the Imperial advances:Experimental Torpedoes in Shadow Point,Lances perfected in M37 by Mars,improved very long plasma batteries,new ships classes,that planet Tesla which was full of experimental weaponry.

Have not read shadowpoint for a long time, I'll have to re-read it.

Taros: Actually shields get mentioned several times. The problem is that most of the A'rho's weapons ignore shields, as you might note, only a few weapon hits get through, but it's bombers and torps gut the Hammer of Thrace, combined with a single ion hit that got through it's shields.

If Lances were perfected in M37, why are the versions from before that longer ranged, more powerful and have less draw on the engines?

Very Long range plasma batteries: See above. The Hecutor pattern plasma weapon was used during the Heresy and is both longer ranged and more powerful then is currently mounted on most Imperial ships.

What new ship classes? If you haven't noticed, they're all Lunar hulls with different weapon configurations. The only 'new' class is the Falchion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes they do. The Templars don't care one bit about the so called "rules" in the Codex Astartes. Why the Mechanicus, arguably the most powerful "sub-faction" in the Imperium, would care about the Codex is beyond me. And what would the Imperial Navy do? Shoot them?

As for the Inquisition wiping out Chapters that ignore the CA; last time someone from the Inquisition tried to kill off the Space Wolves, the Wolves held out for 3 years and eventually sent the Inquisition packing.

While it is true that the Imperium almost was plunged into another civil war over the implementation of the Codex Astartes, you would do well to remember who it was that resisted it the most, aswell as how much the Templars cared once the Codex was implemented.

I brought up this argument in the 'Space Marine Lances' debate as a reason to keep the str 2 lance option. I was firmly reminded that the BT's do not have their own shipyards, and that if the Nova Frigate, with it's single lance weapon, was cause for concern among the IN and Inq, then a battlebarge full of them would be tantamount to waving a flag that says 'Purge Me!'.

And, while the admech might not care about the Codex Astartes, I'm sure they care that the Inquisition cares.

What about in a person to person basis. How would the different named charters do in one on one fights? Farsight/sadowstrong/that other guy Vs the different BT with their own stat blocks.

I don't think sadowstrong will do too well in a stand up fight. She is more of a commander. Farsight he should be able to rack up some kills.