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Melissia wrote:Yes... actually we will. I gave one example, brand new designs of weaponry and ammunition. But there's also the research of the Inquisition to produce new wargear for them to use as well.

It's likely that some of this research makes its way to the Imperium as a whole, but frequently it's too expensive for the Guard and not too useful for the Marines or Sisters (power armor being rather bad for sneaking around), so we don't see it in tabletop much.

You will never see them on par with Tau sorry.

If they were, bolters would be replaced with better weapons, lasguns would get upgrades, lascannons would be modfied heavily, stealth fields would be stock for terminators, AT rounds would get a revision, tank accuracey would skyrocket with targeting arrays, the list goes on.

Tau advance tech by inventing totally new weapons and revising designs completely. The way their weapons go, rail rifles stock wouldn't be crazy at all in a few expansions. Thats a weapon that a stock FW could use and would punch holes in power armor.


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nomotog wrote:What about in a person to person basis. How would the different named charters do in one on one fights? Farsight/sadowstrong/that other guy Vs the different BT with their own stat blocks.

I don't think sadowstrong will do too well in a stand up fight. She is more of a commander. Farsight he should be able to rack up some kills.

Shadowsun has a stealth field generator, 2 fusion blasters and is accurate like a mofo.

Farsight is a serial killer with 350 years of warfare under his belt in some really brutal battles, wielding a sword believed to be Chaos/Necron/Eldar. Also, he is sporting a plasma rifle and a shield gen in a battlesuit.

If it was just shooting, Shadowsun would prolly be the worse of the two to fight.

Anything melee and it would be Farsight.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:Yes... actually we will. I gave one example, brand new designs of weaponry and ammunition. But there's also the research of the Inquisition to produce new wargear for them to use as well.

It's likely that some of this research makes its way to the Imperium as a whole, but frequently it's too expensive for the Guard and not too useful for the Marines or Sisters (power armor being rather bad for sneaking around), so we don't see it in tabletop much.

You will never see them on par with Tau sorry.

If they were, bolters would be replaced with better weapons, lasguns would get upgrades, lascannons would be modfied heavily, stealth fields would be stock for terminators, AT rounds would get a revision, tank accuracey would skyrocket with targeting arrays, the list goes on.

Tau advance tech by inventing totally new weapons and revising designs completely. The way their weapons go, rail rifles stock wouldn't be crazy at all in a few expansions. Thats a weapon that a stock FW could use and would punch holes in power armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:What about in a person to person basis. How would the different named charters do in one on one fights? Farsight/sadowstrong/that other guy Vs the different BT with their own stat blocks.

I don't think sadowstrong will do too well in a stand up fight. She is more of a commander. Farsight he should be able to rack up some kills.

Shadowsun has a stealth field generator, 2 fusion blasters and is accurate like a mofo.

Farsight is a serial killer with 350 years of warfare under his belt in some really brutal battles, wielding a sword believed to be Chaos/Necron/Eldar. Also, he is sporting a plasma rifle and a shield gen in a battlesuit.

If it was just shooting, Shadowsun would prolly be the worse of the two to fight.

Anything melee and it would be Farsight.

There is actually some debate on how farsight has lived to be 350. I am of the theory that the name farsight just get passed on each time he dies, so he whouldn't be 350 in my book.

Do we know any BT with names? I don't have a SM codex.

Helbrecht, the Black Templar High Marshal (Chapter Master), easily superior to Shadowsun, about equal or slightly better than Farsight. Grimaldus, who I think is the head Chaplain. He's a very powerful veteran, easily able to take on either of those two.
I am of the same opinion about Farsight, considering most Tau don't live past 50 (correct?), it's more likely that he is corrupted by that sword or the title of Farsight is passed down through his successors.

Just want to point out tau will never develop warp travel because they have no signature in the warp so they can't have navigators which guides all imperim ships.

They can only do what the necrons do, but necrons are still millions of years ahead. Considering that they were one of the first race to develop, meaning they must be a fast evolving race like the tau.

The only reason the tau can develop so fast is because, if the IoM needed to build a new weapon, It would need to changed million and million of factories and trillions and triillions of guns.

Fo the tau, max of 10 billion guns to out fit all its troops.

iproxtaco wrote:Helbrecht, the Black Templar High Marshal (Chapter Master), easily superior to Shadowsun, about equal or slightly better than Farsight. Grimaldus, who I think is the head Chaplain. He's a very powerful veteran, easily able to take on either of those two.
I am of the same opinion about Farsight, considering most Tau don't live past 50 (correct?), it's more likely that he is corrupted by that sword or the title of Farsight is passed down through his successors.

Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.

Many believe he died and the name was passed on. I however believe the sword he wields gives him longer life.

Either way, in a h2h fight Farsight would be a brutal foe. He is wearing a suit that is leagues beyond a normal Space Marines armor and even a termi 1 on 1 would get shredded to ribbons if he wasn't melted from plasma first.

Then there is the small fact that Farsight tends to favor cheating in fights, you would have to deal with his honorguard before closing in on him.

Hopefully we get some more info on him in the next dex as a lot of people prefer Farsight/Enclave to Tau/Empire.

Well with the Tau reproducing like Tyranids, and technologically advancing toward Necrondom, I'd say by the time the slow grinding wheels of imperial bureaucracy organized such an attack, in several hundred years, not only would they take unprecedented losses, but quite possibly fail entirely as the rest of the imperium is left far too vulnerable in the meantime.

No I think the imperium had one chance at wiping out the Tau, and they missed it...

Consider: Once Commander Shadowsun finishes field testing the XV22 Stealth Battlesuit it could become standard issue for all Firewarriors... That would amount to SMs pissin in their pants as they melt under Tau plasma like a ripper swarm under heavy flamers. And that's just one wargear upgrade.

Archonate wrote:Well with the Tau reproducing like Tyranids, and technologically advancing toward Necrondom, I'd say by the time the slow grinding wheels of imperial bureaucracy organized such an attack, in several hundred years, not only would they take unprecedented losses, but quite possibly fail entirely as the rest of the imperium is left far too vulnerable in the meantime.

No I think the imperium had one chance at wiping out the Tau, and they missed it...

Consider: Once Commander Shadowsun finishes field testing the XV22 Stealth Battlesuit it could become standard issue for all Firewarriors... That would amount to SMs pissin in their pants as they melt under Tau plasma like a ripper swarm under heavy flamers. And that's just one wargear upgrade.

I could see it being issued to Stealth Shas'vres, but you have to earn the right to wear a battlesuit; it wouldn't be given to all Fire Warriors.

I'm behind Farsight in almost any one-on-one fight. Fast, mobile, and he has a shield generator and a sword that can cut through any armor.

Just read the topic... Black Templars only? Get real. No single SM chapter would stand a chance against the entire Tau empire.

Not without obscene amounts of reinforcement by the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy.


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Nerivant wrote:you have to earn the right to wear a battlesuit

With Tau, 'earn the right' pretty much means 'recieve the required training and prove that you can operate it comfortably.' They're not like superstitious SMs with their hand-me-down relic wargear...

Nerivant wrote:

Archonate wrote:Well with the Tau reproducing like Tyranids, and technologically advancing toward Necrondom, I'd say by the time the slow grinding wheels of imperial bureaucracy organized such an attack, in several hundred years, not only would they take unprecedented losses, but quite possibly fail entirely as the rest of the imperium is left far too vulnerable in the meantime.

No I think the imperium had one chance at wiping out the Tau, and they missed it...

Consider: Once Commander Shadowsun finishes field testing the XV22 Stealth Battlesuit it could become standard issue for all Firewarriors... That would amount to SMs pissin in their pants as they melt under Tau plasma like a ripper swarm under heavy flamers. And that's just one wargear upgrade.

I could see it being issued to Stealth Shas'vres, but you have to earn the right to wear a battlesuit; it wouldn't be given to all Fire Warriors.

I'm behind Farsight in almost any one-on-one fight. Fast, mobile, and he has a shield generator and a sword that can cut through any armor.

What if he was fighting the emperor? I think farsight is rather neat. Something like the tau version of what a SM should look like. Fast brutal and just crazy enough to make him scary.

nomotog wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Archonate wrote:Well with the Tau reproducing like Tyranids, and technologically advancing toward Necrondom, I'd say by the time the slow grinding wheels of imperial bureaucracy organized such an attack, in several hundred years, not only would they take unprecedented losses, but quite possibly fail entirely as the rest of the imperium is left far too vulnerable in the meantime.

No I think the imperium had one chance at wiping out the Tau, and they missed it...

Consider: Once Commander Shadowsun finishes field testing the XV22 Stealth Battlesuit it could become standard issue for all Firewarriors... That would amount to SMs pissin in their pants as they melt under Tau plasma like a ripper swarm under heavy flamers. And that's just one wargear upgrade.

I could see it being issued to Stealth Shas'vres, but you have to earn the right to wear a battlesuit; it wouldn't be given to all Fire Warriors.

I'm behind Farsight in almost any one-on-one fight. Fast, mobile, and he has a shield generator and a sword that can cut through any armor.

What if he was fighting the emperor? I think farsight is rather neat. Something like the tau version of what a SM should look like. Fast brutal and just crazy enough to make him scary.

In the realm of this scenario, I think he'd stand a fair chance against anyone; but there are definitely people out there who could break his XV8 in half over their knee.

Archonate wrote:With Tau, 'earn the right' pretty much means 'recieve the required training and prove that you can operate it comfortably.' They're not like superstitious SMs with their hand-me-down relic wargear...

Something not all Fire Warriors can do. Four years on the line before they're able to pilot one.
Though, I really do want to see the current experimental equipment either added to the normal arsenal, or nixed, and new gear move in. Don't think I'm against seeing more XV22's.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.

This is because GW keeps moving the dates around for the Gulf Crusade, etc. If it was 20 years ago, it makes sense. If it was 200 years ago, it starts getting odd.


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BaronIveagh wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.

This is because GW keeps moving the dates around for the Gulf Crusade, etc. If it was 20 years ago, it makes sense. If it was 200 years ago, it starts getting odd.

Someone once quipped about another person asking about if the Emperor would ever have TT stats that: 'Sure, set up your army, toss a hand grenade onto the table, and that's the Emperor.'

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

You will never see them on par with Tau sorry.

so you agree with your little blue greys inferiority?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

If they were, bolters would be replaced with better weapons, lasguns would get upgrades, lascannons would be modfied heavily, stealth fields would be stock for terminators, AT rounds would get a revision, tank accuracey would skyrocket with targeting arrays, the list goes on.

1) better than a boltgun?
Yours is not, pulse weapons may be reduced in effectiveness as the nids have shown. Nothing reduces the boltguns effect.

2) upgrading the weapon of bazillions of Guardsmen is such a good and easy to perform idea....But maybe they don't need upgrades?

3) lascannons work fine.

4) stealth is for pussys. And pussys have been caught in thier hiding before and ever will.

5) the AT of the IoM kills more in a day than Tau can in 1 millenia.

6) Imperium has BS 5, Tau not. Natural by the statline.

7) Thats your whole list?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Tau advance tech by inventing totally new weapons and revising designs completely. The way their weapons go, rail rifles stock wouldn't be crazy at all in a few expansions. Thats a weapon that a stock FW could use and would punch holes in power armor.

Its not likely to invent something new if you know a lot. The mechanicum may not show everything and surely has a ton of possible
improvements just stored somewhere and cannot find it ATM.

Really railrifles? Youre lost in wishlisting good sir.


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Archonate wrote:Well with the Tau reproducing like Tyranids, and technologically advancing toward Necrondom, I'd say by the time the slow grinding wheels of imperial bureaucracy organized such an attack, in several hundred years, not only would they take unprecedented losses, but quite possibly fail entirely as the rest of the imperium is left far too vulnerable in the meantime.

Major mistake. The Tau have to encounter all the baddies in 5th ed. This will go on. NO more pissing on the imperiums lawn without the
old grumpy just ignoring their cries for help when the fangs of the nid fleets close....

Archonate wrote:No I think the imperium had one chance at wiping out the Tau, and they missed it...

Until GW decides so, no one will be wiped.

nomtog wrote:
What if he was fighting the emperor? I think farsight is rather neat. Something like the tau version of what a SM should look like. Fast brutal and just crazy enough to make him scary.

VS the emperor? one who could have a 100.000 kneel before him just by willing it?
It won't end in any identifiable remains of that xenos....

BaronIveagh wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.

This is because GW keeps moving the dates around for the Gulf Crusade, etc. If it was 20 years ago, it makes sense. If it was 200 years ago, it starts getting odd.


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BaronIveagh wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.

This is because GW keeps moving the dates around for the Gulf Crusade, etc. If it was 20 years ago, it makes sense. If it was 200 years ago, it starts getting odd.

Someone once quipped about another person asking about if the Emperor would ever have TT stats that: 'Sure, set up your army, toss a hand grenade onto the table, and that's the Emperor.'

Do you still get to make a armor save?

1hadhq wrote:Really railrifles? Youre lost in wishlisting good sir.

... I think the concept of hypothesis is lost on you... As you post in this thread dedicated to an entirely hypothetical situation.

1hadhq wrote:
4) stealth is for pussys. And pussys have been caught in thier hiding before and ever will.

If you want glory, fight in the open. If you want victory, fight from the shadows.

nomotog wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.

This is because GW keeps moving the dates around for the Gulf Crusade, etc. If it was 20 years ago, it makes sense. If it was 200 years ago, it starts getting odd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.

This is because GW keeps moving the dates around for the Gulf Crusade, etc. If it was 20 years ago, it makes sense. If it was 200 years ago, it starts getting odd.

Someone once quipped about another person asking about if the Emperor would ever have TT stats that: 'Sure, set up your army, toss a hand grenade onto the table, and that's the Emperor.'

Do you still get to make a armor save?

No, but I'd get a cover save since I'd be bending over and kissing my rear goodbye.

Nerivant wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
4) stealth is for pussys. And pussys have been caught in thier hiding before and ever will.

If you want glory, fight in the open. If you want victory, fight from the shadows.

Space Marines win battles, but bombers and orbital bombardment win wars. Both use those sneaky guys to tell them what to blow sky high.

Archonate wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Really railrifles? Youre lost in wishlisting good sir.

... I think the concept of hypothesis is lost on you... As you post in this thread dedicated to an entirely hypothetical situation.

There is no concept of hypotheosis in the quoted post.
Just ignorance to the fact GW will balance any standard weapon and last time I've seen such fanboish wishlisting was a group of younger
gamers getting lost on armies of "Kaldor Draigos" ( not exactly him but..).

A hypothetical situation needs a common base to draw from.
Making a special weapon a standard weapon armywide isn't supported in fluff nor rules.

Archonate wrote:Well with the Tau reproducing like Tyranids, and technologically advancing toward Necrondom, I'd say by the time the slow grinding wheels of imperial bureaucracy organized such an attack, in several hundred years, not only would they take unprecedented losses, but quite possibly fail entirely as the rest of the imperium is left far too vulnerable in the meantime.

No I think the imperium had one chance at wiping out the Tau, and they missed it...

Consider: Once Commander Shadowsun finishes field testing the XV22 Stealth Battlesuit it could become standard issue for all Firewarriors... That would amount to SMs pissin in their pants as they melt under Tau plasma like a ripper swarm under heavy flamers. And that's just one wargear upgrade.

Tau reproducing by the trillions every day? Off the drugs please.
They still aren't at all close to where the Necrons are.
So, if the Imperium tried to defeat the Tau NOW, they would lose? BS. The Imperium could EASILY break the Tau, how long do you think a TINY empire like the Tau can expand and remain alive? Do you realize the size of the Tau compared to size of the Imperium? It's a common misconception that the Imperium is near breaking point. If the Tau have a militarization level of about 20-30% of an empire that is out-numbered by the average Imperial system, if the Imperium ever decided that it needed a large scale mobilization of even half that, they would have several hundred times the population of the Tau in Guardsmen alone. Please don't say anything like "Oh they could never do that" remember that this is a hypothetical thread. IF they ever decided that the Imperium actually was at the point of failing, the High Lords WOULD do something about it. Imagine if they decided that every able bodied man was to take up arms? The Tau are already horribly outnumbered by the IDLE Guard regiments.

Yeah, those Space Marines aren't just going to stand there and die, even if these make believe ultra plasma rifles that just melt them exist in the future. They have many other ways of detecting a stealthed unit other than human sight. Read the beginning of Horus Rising, there were enemies with superior stealth technology than the Tau, the Astartes lost a total of 1 marine with one major injury and another minor injury in which the Space Marine continued fighting. Enemy losses were 100%, and they were using A LOT more powerful weapons.

Wishful thinking does not apply.

1hadhq wrote:

Archonate wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Really railrifles? Youre lost in wishlisting good sir.

... I think the concept of hypothesis is lost on you... As you post in this thread dedicated to an entirely hypothetical situation.

There is no concept of hypotheosis in the quoted post.
Just ignorance to the fact GW will balance any standard weapon and last time I've seen such fanboish wishlisting was a group of younger
gamers getting lost on armies of "Kaldor Draigos" ( not exactly him but..).

A hypothetical situation needs a common base to draw from.
Making a special weapon a standard weapon armywide isn't supported in fluff nor rules.

1. Hive Fleet Gorgon was adapting to Tau weaponry via hardened carapaces. If a Pulse Rifle was having little effect a bolter would have little to no effect.

2. Rail Rifles are being field tested for mainline fronts including infantry. If you want to discuss a future conflict factor in that rail rifle tech could be on the battlefield in a future capacity. Tau aren't the IoM, the tests of today are often the weapons of tommorow. If a few battlesuits can wreck an Imperial Regiment, it is totally plausible a Cadre of FWs could sport Rail Rifles.

3. Stealth Suits are far from "pussy" means of fighting. They require an operator to often go deep into enemy lines and attack. While fighting a Titan, countless stealth suit pilots sacraficed themselves to try and halt it only to die. Pretty far from a cry baby who shoots and runs away when he gets shot at.

4. Lascannons are fine, for garbage. The Tau have better weapons that punch through armor in a clean shot from insane ranges and can be operated by a single pilot in a suit.

5. BS5 is something super human senses can provide. Having markerlights and targeting arrays do the work for basic troops is by far a superior way of obtaining that level of accuracey. When a drone dies send another. I wouldn't be surprised if Tau Tech in FW helmets allows them to obtain a higher BS at some point either. If Rail tech can be streamlined down into a FWs hand, I wouldn't be shocked if TA tech gets scaled down either.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Archonate wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Really railrifles? Youre lost in wishlisting good sir.

... I think the concept of hypothesis is lost on you... As you post in this thread dedicated to an entirely hypothetical situation.

There is no concept of hypotheosis in the quoted post.
Just ignorance to the fact GW will balance any standard weapon and last time I've seen such fanboish wishlisting was a group of younger
gamers getting lost on armies of "Kaldor Draigos" ( not exactly him but..).

A hypothetical situation needs a common base to draw from.
Making a special weapon a standard weapon armywide isn't supported in fluff nor rules.

1. Hive Fleet Gorgon was adapting to Tau weaponry via hardened carapaces. If a Pulse Rifle was having little effect a bolter would have little to no effect.

2. Rail Rifles are being field tested for mainline fronts including infantry. If you want to discuss a future conflict factor in that rail rifle tech could be on the battlefield in a future capacity. Tau aren't the IoM, the tests of today are often the weapons of tommorow. If a few battlesuits can wreck an Imperial Regiment, it is totally plausible a Cadre of FWs could sport Rail Rifles.

3. Stealth Suits are far from "pussy" means of fighting. They require an operator to often go deep into enemy lines and attack. While fighting a Titan, countless stealth suit pilots sacraficed themselves to try and halt it only to die. Pretty far from a cry baby who shoots and runs away when he gets shot at.

4. Lascannons are fine, for garbage. The Tau have better weapons that punch through armor in a clean shot from insane ranges and can be operated by a single pilot in a suit.

5. BS5 is something super human senses can provide. Having markerlights and targeting arrays do the work for basic troops is by far a superior way of obtaining that level of accuracey. When a drone dies send another. I wouldn't be surprised if Tau Tech in FW helmets allows them to obtain a higher BS at some point either. If Rail tech can be streamlined down into a FWs hand, I wouldn't be shocked if TA tech gets scaled down either.

1. Wrong. The Tyranids developed a specialized coating on their armour which dissipated plasma rifle shots, making them very ineffective. Kroot weapons were effective, being regular kinetic rounds. Bolters would annihilate.

2. Citation on field testing Rail Rifles for regular infantry please. I would agree than there's nothing to say that in the future rail rifles COULD be used, but the idea isn't close yet without proof. A few suits taking out a whole Guard regiment? DON'T MAKE STUFF UP. Or, give us they source. Until then it's BS. If you're going to sue examples of future, possible weapons, fine. In the next 50 years, the Mechanicum will find an STC that tells them how to make rail-rifles that are as reliable as the lasgun.

3. Stealth Suits are far from a pussy idea. It's a smart idea, but not as effective as a lot of players make it out to be. If the wearers don't take out their enemy very quickly, they will be targeted, regardless of stealth. A stealth suit trying to take down a marauding Titan is fairly stupid.

4. Lascannons are now garbage? Move along. They can also take out a Crisis suit or Tau skimmer in a single shot, if you think Tau weapons are so amazingly powerful, I'll think the same for the Imperiums. The lascannon can also be wielded by a single person. A Space Marine. A Dreadnought. A weapons team, granted is two people, but it's only two humans, as opposed to a mechanised exo-suit.

5. Keep in-game rules out please. In fluff, Markerlights help identify and locate a target and provide information like distance and location. A Tau is not going to be any better at aiming even with it. Sure, his rifle is more accurate, but is ability to aim is not improved. Still, markerlights are something that the Imperium really does lack.

iproxtaco wrote:
1. Wrong. The Tyranids developed a specialized coating on their armour which dissipated plasma rifle shots, making them very ineffective. Kroot weapons were effective, being regular kinetic rounds. Bolters would annihilate.

2. Citation on field testing Rail Rifles for regular infantry please. I would agree than there's nothing to say that in the future rail rifles COULD be used, but the idea isn't close yet without proof. A few suits taking out a whole Guard regiment? DON'T MAKE STUFF UP. Or, give us they source. Until then it's BS. If you're going to sue examples of future, possible weapons, fine. In the next 50 years, the Mechanicum will find an STC that tells them how to make rail-rifles that are as reliable as the lasgun.

3. Stealth Suits are far from a pussy idea. It's a smart idea, but not as effective as a lot of players make it out to be. If the wearers don't take out their enemy very quickly, they will be targeted, regardless of stealth. A stealth suit trying to take down a marauding Titan is fairly stupid.

4. Lascannons are now garbage? Move along. They can also take out a Crisis suit or Tau skimmer in a single shot, if you think Tau weapons are so amazingly powerful, I'll think the same for the Imperiums. The lascannon can also be wielded by a single person. A Space Marine. A Dreadnought. A weapons team, granted is two people, but it's only two humans, as opposed to a mechanised exo-suit.

5. Keep in-game rules out please. In fluff, Markerlights help identify and locate a target and provide information like distance and location. A Tau is not going to be any better at aiming even with it. Sure, his rifle is more accurate, but is ability to aim is not improved. Still, markerlights are something that the Imperium really does lack.

1. Dunno, don't have the Tyranid codex.

2. Codex Tau Empire, Page 29. "The rail rifle is an implementation of the technology utilized in the railgun that is mounted on vehicles and Broadside battlesuits. It has only recently been authorized for issue to front-line units, having completed an extensive field testing phase."

3. agree

4. Yeah but we can one-shot a Monolith without being incredibly lucky.

5. Yeah but if the markerlight "guide other weapons it [the target] with unerring accuracy" (Codex Tau Empire page 29), it doesn't matter how proficient the gunner is; one soldier paints the target the computers do the rest and all anyone else has to do is pull the trigger. Just think about the smart weapons in Judge Dredd. I think you're thinking in terms of modern military and less in terms of 40,000 years in the future and what a slightly similar weapon system would be capable of. I couldn't find anything in the codex that makes the markerlight as simple as you painted it to be.

Cheers.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes they do. The Templars don't care one bit about the so called "rules" in the Codex Astartes.

I'm sorry, no offense intended, but the way you wrote that comes across like an angsty teenager angry at his dad for making him follow the so called "rules".

Why the Mechanicus, arguably the most powerful "sub-faction" in the Imperium, would care about the Codex is beyond me.

Because it was put in place to prevent another Space Marine rebellion, like the one that schismed the Mechanicus in two? It's part of Imperial Law? It governs not only combat doctrine and internal policy but how other Imperial organizations interact with them.

There's a reason the BT codex states that the Inquisition is suspicious of them and pays them special attention.

And what would the Imperial Navy do? Shoot them?

Yes? If the Imperial Navy feels that a Space Marine fleet is becoming too powerful, too oriented for ship to ship combat and no longer oriented towards orbital assaults, then those Space Marines have the capacity to challenge the Imperium's primary means of controlling them, and thus considers them a threat.

Actually, IIRC, the Imperial Navy did in fact open fire on the Imperial Fists (the BT's founders) when they would not submit to the Codex Astartes.

As for the Inquisition wiping out Chapters that ignore the CA; last time someone from the Inquisition tried to kill off the Space Wolves, the Wolves held out for 3 years and eventually sent the Inquisition packing.

They sent the *Ecclesiarchy* packing, if I'm remembering my fluff right (don't have the book in front of me). Not the same thing, with nowhere near the resources, means, or weight of numbers. An Inquisitor requisitioning assassins, a couple dozen IG regiments, and a sector battlegroup would wipe out the SW's fairly quickly and decisively, unless the SW's are suddenly able to defeat superior space forces with ships designed for ship to ship combat and kill 30-40 guardsmen each (far in excess of the 10-12 for 1 ratio given by the SM codecies).

While it is true that the Imperium almost was plunged into another civil war over the implementation of the Codex Astartes, you would do well to remember who it was that resisted it the most

Dorn? Yes. He relented in the end however and now his Imperial Fists are one of the finest exemplars of a Codex chapter.

aswell as how much the Templars cared once the Codex was implemented.

By running off to "do their own thing"?

agnosto wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
1. Wrong. The Tyranids developed a specialized coating on their armour which dissipated plasma rifle shots, making them very ineffective. Kroot weapons were effective, being regular kinetic rounds. Bolters would annihilate.

2. Citation on field testing Rail Rifles for regular infantry please. I would agree than there's nothing to say that in the future rail rifles COULD be used, but the idea isn't close yet without proof. A few suits taking out a whole Guard regiment? DON'T MAKE STUFF UP. Or, give us they source. Until then it's BS. If you're going to sue examples of future, possible weapons, fine. In the next 50 years, the Mechanicum will find an STC that tells them how to make rail-rifles that are as reliable as the lasgun.

3. Stealth Suits are far from a pussy idea. It's a smart idea, but not as effective as a lot of players make it out to be. If the wearers don't take out their enemy very quickly, they will be targeted, regardless of stealth. A stealth suit trying to take down a marauding Titan is fairly stupid.

4. Lascannons are now garbage? Move along. They can also take out a Crisis suit or Tau skimmer in a single shot, if you think Tau weapons are so amazingly powerful, I'll think the same for the Imperiums. The lascannon can also be wielded by a single person. A Space Marine. A Dreadnought. A weapons team, granted is two people, but it's only two humans, as opposed to a mechanised exo-suit.

5. Keep in-game rules out please. In fluff, Markerlights help identify and locate a target and provide information like distance and location. A Tau is not going to be any better at aiming even with it. Sure, his rifle is more accurate, but is ability to aim is not improved. Still, markerlights are something that the Imperium really does lack.

1. Dunno, don't have the Tyranid codex.

2. Codex Tau Empire, Page 29. "The rail rifle is an implementation of the technology utilized in the railgun that is mounted on vehicles and Broadside battlesuits. It has only recently been authorized for issue to front-line units, having completed an extensive field testing phase."

3. agree

4. Yeah but we can one-shot a Monolith without being incredibly lucky.

5. Yeah but if the markerlight "guide other weapons it [the target] with unerring accuracy" (Codex Tau Empire page 29), it doesn't matter how proficient the gunner is; one soldier paints the target the computers do the rest and all anyone else has to do is pull the trigger. Just think about the smart weapons in Judge Dredd. I think you're thinking in terms of modern military and less in terms of 40,000 years in the future and what a slightly similar weapon system would be capable of. I couldn't find anything in the codex that makes the markerlight as simple as you painted it to be.

Cheers.

1. It's in the Tyranid Codex, page 18 onwards.

2. They're used in a heavy weapons capacity, being large, and not practical for the regular infantry just now. He was suggesting that the Tau are testing them as standard infantry weapons, as in a replacement or supplement to the Plasma Rifle. No source has been given about the matter. Or he is talking about rail rifle teams, in which case he is just plain Bsing and wrong.

4. Still takes a fair amount of luck to one-shot a Monolith with anything outside of apoc.

5. The Markerlights locate a target and provide information to the Fire Warriors. It can then be used in sync with a seeker missile, or other automated weapons, but its not going to physically turn the infantryman's rifle to the target. The Fire Warrior just knows where it is, how far, etc. But actually hitting the target is all down to the wielders ability to aim, which is not going to be at all better on average than a Guardsmens.

iproxtaco wrote:
1. It's in the Tyranid Codex.

2. They're used in a heavy weapons capacity, being large, and not practical for the regular infantry just now. He was suggesting that the Tau are testing them as standard infantry weapons, as in a replacement or supplement to the Plasma Rifle. No source has been given about the matter. Or he is talking about rail rifle teams, in which case he is just plain Bsing and wrong.

4. Still takes a fair amount of luck to one-shot an Monolith with anything outside of apoc.

5. The Markerlights locate a target and provide information to the Fire Warriors. It can then be used in sync with a seeker missile, or other automated weapons, but its not going to physically turn the infantryman's rifle to the target. The Fire Warrior just knows where it is, how far, etc. But actually hitting the target is all down to the wielders ability to aim, which is not going to be at all better on average than a Guardsmens.

1. It explains why I don't know.

2. I own a fair amount of the models and they're not any larger than a pulse rifle. Gamewise I doubt they'll ever make them standard issue. Fluffwise, I could see it on a limited basis...maybe with Ethereal guard FWs..

4. Not too much 4+ to glance or pen and 4+ to kill. One unit of broadsides has done it for me, every game I've played vs. Necrons.

5. If you've got some fluff that's not in the codex, fine by me but the codex says that the MLs are making the weapons accurate, nothing about the firer. Modern, common sense would say that the firer needs to have a direct impact but we're talking about a fantasy universe with magic swords and giant robots.

Regarding the pulse rifle thing, the exact quote is:

"in response to the powerful pulse rifles of the tau firewarriors, carapace was restructured, bone recombined and tissue reknitted, dramaticaly increasing the tyranid's ressistance to tau ordnance.
In reply, the tau reconfigured their weapon loadouts, retro-fitting pulse rifles to use new prototypes or older ammunition, ballistics which the Tyrannids had not before encountered and hence
had not adapted to."

The older ( and newer! ) variants of Tau ammunition were effective because they weren't yet encountered by the Tyranid horde and not because the Hivefleet in question had any problems to
adapt to kinetic rounds. The Kroot haven't even been mentioned in this context.

agnosto wrote:
1. It explains why I don't know.

2. I own a fair amount of the models and they're not any larger than a pulse rifle. Gamewise I doubt they'll ever make them standard issue. Fluffwise, I could see it on a limited basis...maybe with Ethereal guard FWs..

4. Not too much 4+ to glance or pen and 4+ to kill. One unit of broadsides has done it for me, every game I've played vs. Necrons.

5. If you've got some fluff that's not in the codex, fine by me but the codex says that the MLs are making the weapons accurate, nothing about the firer. Modern, common sense would say that the firer needs to have a direct impact but we're talking about a fantasy universe with magic swords and giant robots.

2. Pathfinders get rail rifles. They also get slightly better carbines too. I say that they are more elite then font line. I don't think the tau will put rail rifles in the hands of base troops. (It seems like they are working on getting ion cannons smaller instead, so Iron rifles. just don't hold your breath. It will take time.) Their is presumably a reason for this. I think that rail rifles require a lot of computing and calculations or their rounds will brake apart in air. That's why you only see them on vehicles or with snipers.

Page 20 -400901.M41 Following heavy losses by Tau Firewarriors, the Termagaunts and Hormogaunts quickly develop an almost total immunity to pulse-rifle fire. Sha'draigs main settlement is overrun and Shas'el Vorcah withdraws his forces to the mountains.

505901.M41 Stealth Teams recover several hundred Kroot rifles from the ruins of Pechallai's defences. The retrieved weapons is distributed amongst Vorcha's surviving Firewarriors.

Kroot weapons proved effective because they were kinetic, hence saying bolters would have been worse than pulse-rifles is stupid and borne out of fanboyism and trolling.

On the topic of Markerlights. The lights are used to identify targets and provide information about it to assets connected to the team using it or the general battle network. To improve the Firewarriors basic ability to aim with his weapon would require the device to physically aim the rifle for the soldier. It does not do this, therefore it only gives the Tau information gor them to interpret independently. It does not improve their ability to aim.

The rail-rifles are still huge, complicated, unwieldy with a low rate of fire, thus unsuitable for mainstream infantry at present or in the near future unless you can give me the source which states that they have been adapted to pulse-rifle ease of use.

More compact weapons with shorter range and reduced stopping power have been the trend in infantry weapons over the past century, with larger rifles, often newer variants of old standard infantry rifles, going to trained marksmen, instead of being the standard weapon. In terms of models, pulse rifles are probably oversized for visual reasons, and I'd hazard a guess they'd carry a great deal more ammo than rail rifles as well.

iproxtaco wrote:Page 20 -400901.M41 Following heavy losses by Tau Firewarriors, the Termagaunts and Hormogaunts quickly develop an almost total immunity to pulse-rifle fire. Sha'draigs main settlement is overrun and Shas'el Vorcah withdraws his forces to the mountains.

505901.M41 Stealth Teams recover several hundred Kroot rifles from the ruins of Pechallai's defences. The retrieved weapons is distributed amongst Vorcha's surviving Firewarriors.

Kroot weapons proved effective because they were kinetic, hence saying bolters would have been worse than pulse-rifles is stupid and borne out of fanboyism and trolling.

I seriously don't get your problem. The Tyrannid forces adapt to Pulse Rifles because those were the most common weapon amonst their enemies.
Kroot rifles worked because Gorgon hadn't adapted to them at this point. So, how exactly did you get the idea that firewarriors armed with bolters, instead of pulserifles, would have been more efficient?
Wouldn't the Nids simply have adapted a high ressistance to boltgun fire instead or are bolters somehow magicaly protected from Gorgon's ability to adapt to the technology and strategy of it's enemy?