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Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.

iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.

I might point out that this is again GW magic stepping in, as far more tyranids have died to lasguns, which are also energy based, then pulse rifles, but this has never happened to the Imperium.

The way it couched it, they made it seem as though Gorgon didn't develop any kind of "reflective coating"--but rather they generated the ability to have a mucous coating on their carapaces that made 'pulse' weapons lose much of their effectiveness.

How that would work and why it wouldn't affect las weapons I do not know.

BaronIveagh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.

I might point out that this is again GW magic stepping in, as far more tyranids have died to lasguns, which are also energy based, then pulse rifles, but this has never happened to the Imperium.

A pulse-rifle is quite different to a lasgun. They don't work in the same way. A pulse-rifle is a plasma launcher, a lasgun is a powerful laser. The coating is obviously designed for the plasma bolts of Tau weaponry, and not the lasers of the Imperial Guard. It's quite obvious when it mentions no hindrance to the Cadians when they arrive.

Archonate wrote:Just read the topic... Black Templars only? Get real. No single SM chapter would stand a chance against the entire Tau empire.

Not without obscene amounts of reinforcement by the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy.

It all depends, actually. Are we talking about straight-up slugfests? Attrition battles, ground wars, et al?
Because I've pretty comfortably laid out ways this could work. If the goal is a, damn the consequences exterminate them all and render their worlds uninhabitable salting the worlds and leaving them barren wastes--it's doable. The Black Templars will probably be wiped out or have to coordinate synchronized bombardments across the breadth of the Tau Empire, but it's doable.

Ground wars for territory, yeah that won't work. They'd be wiped out.

Nerivant wrote:you have to earn the right to wear a battlesuit

With Tau, 'earn the right' pretty much means 'recieve the required training and prove that you can operate it comfortably.' They're not like superstitious SMs with their hand-me-down relic wargear...

You've read the same book that I have, right? The Tau Empire book, where they mention that to become a Battlesuit Pilot or any amount of advancement, the Fire Caste have to undergo a series of 'Trials', yes?

Tau are just as, if not more, superstitious as the Imperium. The only difference is that it's less like the Imperium at large and more like the Astartes.

Plus, as has been mentioned, the cybernetic upgrades between a Fire Warrior and his suit make them 'twitchy' outside of their suits. They had the same problem with the early rail rifles, where the target uplink systems were frying the nervous systems of the Fire Warriors operating them.

iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.

The Hive Fleet was adapting to EVERYTHING being thrown at it.

From ground tactics to the Tau arsenal it adapted and overcame. It wasn't until the combined arms of both the Imperial and Tau ships weapons overwhelmed it, the Nids were defeated.

If you think Bolters wouldn't easily be overcome after a few battles you're nuts. Hardened caparace then game. Being a slower round would mean nothing, it adapted to the wide spread threats like Pulse Rifles and Ion rounds, if bolters became the common round it would adapt all the same. Second, the worst case scenario would be an evolution that renders something like the lasgun worthless, since the Imperium wouldn't be able to replace them with any other weapons in time.

nomotog wrote:What about in a person to person basis. How would the different named charters do in one on one fights? Farsight/sadowstrong/that other guy Vs the different BT with their own stat blocks.

I don't think sadowstrong will do too well in a stand up fight. She is more of a commander. Farsight he should be able to rack up some kills.

Well shadowsun is able to hold her own in melee actually, especially with her inv. save and drones wall. But she wouldn't (couldn't?) excel in this because her being valuable is due mostly to her deep-striking able-to-pop-two-tanks-a-turn then assault another-ness.

That means you could literally kill three transports in a turn with her.

Then get you blade storms to clean things up

And farsight could probably kill any individual templar one-on-one.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.

The Hive Fleet was adapting to EVERYTHING being thrown at it.

From ground tactics to the Tau arsenal it adapted and overcame. It wasn't until the combined arms of both the Imperial and Tau ships weapons overwhelmed it, the Nids were defeated.

If you think Bolters wouldn't easily be overcome after a few battles you're nuts. Hardened caparace then game. Being a slower round would mean nothing, it adapted to the wide spread threats like Pulse Rifles and Ion rounds, if bolters became the common round it would adapt all the same. Second, the worst case scenario would be an evolution that renders something like the lasgun worthless, since the Imperium wouldn't be able to replace them with any other weapons in time.

Except we're talking about a fixed event, not something potentially in the future or open to interpretation in that manner.
The Imperium has fought the Tyranids many more times than the Tau have, and yet there's nothing to suggest that this has ever proved effective against the bolter or the lasgun.

Considering the bolter is not energy based but kinetic based, creating a protective coating would not work the same. Bolt rounds are designed to penetrate armour and soft targets and detonate inside. To stop a high velocity and powerful impact on a very small area, you need very strong or very thick armour something which the Tyranids do not have the resources to apply to every one of the smallest warrior organisms. Even if they stopped the rounds from penetrating, they would detonate on the surface and crack the armour.

That's one irritating thing about arguing with some Tau players about the Tau. Everything has to swing the Tau's way. If a Crisis suit takes on a Dreadnought, who cares if the Dreadnought can walk faster than it or carries a twin-linked lascannon and had superior armour, strength and CC ability, eh? Everything will go right for the Crisis suit, the dreadnoughts obvious advantages be dammed.

Kanluwen wrote:

Plus, as has been mentioned, the cybernetic upgrades between a Fire Warrior and his suit make them 'twitchy' outside of their suits. They had the same problem with the early rail rifles, where the target uplink systems were frying the nervous systems of the Fire Warriors operating them.

@ the twitchiness, I also previously mentioned the same thing happens to Titan Princeps/Moderati. It even happens to the Callidus temple assassins, being in a body not your own, especially one that makes you infinitely more powerful, will cause profound psychological trauma. Callidus aren't "twitchy" because they're comfortable forgetting who they were.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.

The Hive Fleet was adapting to EVERYTHING being thrown at it.

From ground tactics to the Tau arsenal it adapted and overcame. It wasn't until the combined arms of both the Imperial and Tau ships weapons overwhelmed it, the Nids were defeated.

If you think Bolters wouldn't easily be overcome after a few battles you're nuts. Hardened caparace then game. Being a slower round would mean nothing, it adapted to the wide spread threats like Pulse Rifles and Ion rounds, if bolters became the common round it would adapt all the same. Second, the worst case scenario would be an evolution that renders something like the lasgun worthless, since the Imperium wouldn't be able to replace them with any other weapons in time.

Except we're talking about a fixed event, not something potentially in the future or open to interpretation in that manner.
The Imperium has fought the Tyranids many more times than the Tau have, and yet there's nothing to suggest that this has ever proved effective against the bolter or the lasgun.

Considering the bolter is not energy based but kinetic based, creating a protective coating would not work the same. Bolt rounds are designed to penetrate armour and soft targets and detonate inside. To stop a high velocity and powerful impact on a very small area, you need very strong or very thick armour something which the Tyranids do not have the resources to apply to every one of the smallest warrior organisms. Even if they stopped the rounds from penetrating, they would detonate on the surface and crack the armour.

That's one irritating thing about arguing with some Tau players about the Tau. Everything has to swing the Tau's way. If a Crisis suit takes on a Dreadnought, who cares if the Dreadnought can walk faster than it or carries a twin-linked lascannon and had superior armour, strength and CC ability, eh? Everything will go right for the Crisis suit, the dreadnoughts obvious advantages be dammed.

...in case you haven't noticed, ever single player of every single faction will support their faction to the end. Arguments are unavoidable to the ambiguous nature of the 41str millennium...

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.

The Hive Fleet was adapting to EVERYTHING being thrown at it.

From ground tactics to the Tau arsenal it adapted and overcame. It wasn't until the combined arms of both the Imperial and Tau ships weapons overwhelmed it, the Nids were defeated.

If you think Bolters wouldn't easily be overcome after a few battles you're nuts. Hardened caparace then game. Being a slower round would mean nothing, it adapted to the wide spread threats like Pulse Rifles and Ion rounds, if bolters became the common round it would adapt all the same. Second, the worst case scenario would be an evolution that renders something like the lasgun worthless, since the Imperium wouldn't be able to replace them with any other weapons in time.

Except we're talking about a fixed event, not something potentially in the future or open to interpretation in that manner.
The Imperium has fought the Tyranids many more times than the Tau have, and yet there's nothing to suggest that this has ever proved effective against the bolter or the lasgun.

Considering the bolter is not energy based but kinetic based, creating a protective coating would not work the same. Bolt rounds are designed to penetrate armour and soft targets and detonate inside. To stop a high velocity and powerful impact on a very small area, you need very strong or very thick armour something which the Tyranids do not have the resources to apply to every one of the smallest warrior organisms. Even if they stopped the rounds from penetrating, they would detonate on the surface and crack the armour.

That's one irritating thing about arguing with some Tau players about the Tau. Everything has to swing the Tau's way. If a Crisis suit takes on a Dreadnought, who cares if the Dreadnought can walk faster than it or carries a twin-linked lascannon and had superior armour, strength and CC ability, eh? Everything will go right for the Crisis suit, the dreadnoughts obvious advantages be dammed.

Ok man, first I assumed we were talking about Gorgon. It was a hyper adaptive hive, more so than the other Nids fought to date. It had no problem adapting both its fleet assets and its ground assets equally. To date, it is perhaps the most dangerous Hive Fleet to ever exist, simply because it adapted to technology in a way that could shatter every army thrown at it simply by rendering their guns plinkers.

So the math on your bolters is worthless, they wouldn't do anything. If the Gorgon found a way to adapt to the Tau arsenal it would have little problem adapting to the Imperial Arsenal. Which is heavily reliant on a single type of weapon, the Lasgun.

Second, Dreads vs suits is an odd match up between units. In CC a Dread can wreck a suit, but in terms of mobility a suit can dance around a Dread with ease. In fluff this becomes even more apparent as suits are depicted as damn near flying around battlefileds. The fight could very well go either way largely dependant on where they encounter each other. As for the weapons and shield gens, again, an odd match up. Largley dependant on what each is kitted with.

iproxtaco wrote:

Except we're talking about a fixed event, not something potentially in the future or open to interpretation in that manner.
The Imperium has fought the Tyranids many more times than the Tau have, and yet there's nothing to suggest that this has ever proved effective against the bolter or the lasgun.

Considering the bolter is not energy based but kinetic based, creating a protective coating would not work the same. Bolt rounds are designed to penetrate armour and soft targets and detonate inside. To stop a high velocity and powerful impact on a very small area, you need very strong or very thick armour something which the Tyranids do not have the resources to apply to every one of the smallest warrior organisms. Even if they stopped the rounds from penetrating, they would detonate on the surface and crack the armour.

That's one irritating thing about arguing with some Tau players about the Tau. Everything has to swing the Tau's way. If a Crisis suit takes on a Dreadnought, who cares if the Dreadnought can walk faster than it or carries a twin-linked lascannon and had superior armour, strength and CC ability, eh? Everything will go right for the Crisis suit, the dreadnoughts obvious advantages be dammed.

Except that makes no sense, because a lasgun damages a target by a laser burning through it. A pulse rifle deals damage by converting a small amount of matter to plasma which hits the target, burning through it.


So, how does a modification that insulates from the much more powerful thermal effect of a pulse rifle not totally ignore a lasgun's pitiful output?

BaronIveagh wrote:
Except that makes no sense, because a lasgun damages a target by a laser burning through it. A pulse rifle deals damage by converting a small amount of matter to plasma which hits the target, burning through it.


So, how does a modification that insulates from the much more powerful thermal effect of a pulse rifle not totally ignore a lasgun's pitiful output?

Took the words right out of my mouth. If it's some kind of coating that dissipates thermal energy; it's going to stop as lasgun as well as a pulse rifle. Flamers too, probably. The IG wouldn't be able to stop them, and the SM don't have the numbers for it.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.

The Hive Fleet was adapting to EVERYTHING being thrown at it.

From ground tactics to the Tau arsenal it adapted and overcame. It wasn't until the combined arms of both the Imperial and Tau ships weapons overwhelmed it, the Nids were defeated.

If you think Bolters wouldn't easily be overcome after a few battles you're nuts. Hardened caparace then game. Being a slower round would mean nothing, it adapted to the wide spread threats like Pulse Rifles and Ion rounds, if bolters became the common round it would adapt all the same. Second, the worst case scenario would be an evolution that renders something like the lasgun worthless, since the Imperium wouldn't be able to replace them with any other weapons in time.

Except we're talking about a fixed event, not something potentially in the future or open to interpretation in that manner.
The Imperium has fought the Tyranids many more times than the Tau have, and yet there's nothing to suggest that this has ever proved effective against the bolter or the lasgun.

Considering the bolter is not energy based but kinetic based, creating a protective coating would not work the same. Bolt rounds are designed to penetrate armour and soft targets and detonate inside. To stop a high velocity and powerful impact on a very small area, you need very strong or very thick armour something which the Tyranids do not have the resources to apply to every one of the smallest warrior organisms. Even if they stopped the rounds from penetrating, they would detonate on the surface and crack the armour.

That's one irritating thing about arguing with some Tau players about the Tau. Everything has to swing the Tau's way. If a Crisis suit takes on a Dreadnought, who cares if the Dreadnought can walk faster than it or carries a twin-linked lascannon and had superior armour, strength and CC ability, eh? Everything will go right for the Crisis suit, the dreadnoughts obvious advantages be dammed.

Ok man, first I assumed we were talking about Gorgon. It was a hyper adaptive hive, more so than the other Nids fought to date. It had no problem adapting both its fleet assets and its ground assets equally. To date, it is perhaps the most dangerous Hive Fleet to ever exist, simply because it adapted to technology in a way that could shatter every army thrown at it simply by rendering their guns plinkers.

So the math on your bolters is worthless, they wouldn't do anything. If the Gorgon found a way to adapt to the Tau arsenal it would have little problem adapting to the Imperial Arsenal. Which is heavily reliant on a single type of weapon, the Lasgun.

Second, Dreads vs suits is an odd match up between units. In CC a Dread can wreck a suit, but in terms of mobility a suit can dance around a Dread with ease. In fluff this becomes even more apparent as suits are depicted as damn near flying around battlefileds. The fight could very well go either way largely dependant on where they encounter each other. As for the weapons and shield gens, again, an odd match up. Largley dependant on what each is kitted with.

+1 on the suit vs. dread view.

They really do fly in the fluff, only landing to fire, cool their jets, save fuel etc.

Also, in fluff, XV88s wreck dreads. the railguns destroy basically anything, include bulky walkers

And finally, one weapon which I can see obliterating dreads ( on the TT, yes, but ESPECIALLY in the fluff) are the fusion cascades. If you take the pair, you get d6 melta hits. Rapid fire guns max out at 2 shots per turn, and these at three each, so these would be firing melta at a rate higher than would be easy to imagine. Melta-minigun.


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Nerivant wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
Except that makes no sense, because a lasgun damages a target by a laser burning through it. A pulse rifle deals damage by converting a small amount of matter to plasma which hits the target, burning through it.


So, how does a modification that insulates from the much more powerful thermal effect of a pulse rifle not totally ignore a lasgun's pitiful output?

Took the words right out of my mouth. If it's some kind of coating that dissipates thermal energy; it's going to stop as lasgun as well as a pulse rifle. Flamers too, probably. The IG wouldn't be able to stop them, and the SM don't have the numbers for it.

...they could always manipulate the orks into fighting the Nids...

Nerivant wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
Except that makes no sense, because a lasgun damages a target by a laser burning through it. A pulse rifle deals damage by converting a small amount of matter to plasma which hits the target, burning through it.


So, how does a modification that insulates from the much more powerful thermal effect of a pulse rifle not totally ignore a lasgun's pitiful output?

Took the words right out of my mouth. If it's some kind of coating that dissipates thermal energy; it's going to stop as lasgun as well as a pulse rifle. Flamers too, probably. The IG wouldn't be able to stop them, and the SM don't have the numbers for it.

Perhaps it can dissipate gentle puffs of unusually warm air better than it can withstand real weapons?

Explain how the Tyranids would somehow manage to create protection on their base Termagaunts that is greater than Power-armour. They do not have the resources to create trillions of organisms like that, else they would have done it already.

And it's never described as insulating against heat, so you're all wrong. Plasma is different to lasers. One is gas, the other is light. One is heated gas, the other is heated light. This modification the Tyranids had was clearly effective against Gas. The properties of the plasma obviously had a weakness which the Tyranids exploited. You'd think that if the same were true of Bolters and lasguns, at least a few of the splinter fleets that the Imperium have to deal with would adapt in some way. Obviously not.
I won't bother going over the difference between a kinetic bolter round and an energy based Pule round. Clearly the logic is lost on some people.

Great use of a combination of fluff and in-game rules to make sure you have the best argument by the way. If I were to do that, my Grey Knights would obliterate nearly everything, but I don't have an inflated opinion of my fictional army.

iproxtaco wrote:Explain how the Tyranids would somehow manage to create protection on their base Termagaunts that is greater than Power-armour? They do not have the resources to create trillions of organisms like that, else they would have done it already.

And it's never described as insulating against heat, so you're all wrong. Plasma is different to lasers. One is gas, the other is light. One is heated gas, the other is heated light. This modification the Tyranids had was clearly effective against Gas.

Great use of a combination of fluff and in-game rules to make sure you have the best argument by the way. If I were to do that, my Grey Knights would obliterate nearly everything, but I don't have an inflated opinion of my fictional army, so I don't.

This is the threat of Hive Fleet Gorgon.

It was capable of adapting to weapons like nothing before it. Perhaps the last galaxy to come in contact with it had highly adaptive weaponry, nobody knows.

They somehow have the capacity to mutate and evolve on a scale that no other Nid fleet has had. As for gathering resources? The Imperial Guard and PDF defend the Imperium, with their weapons rendered useless, what on earth is going to stop the Nids from getting enough Biomass to counter a few thousand Space Marines?

The Tau realized the horrendous threat posed by Gorgon and sent a small fleet to hunt down the splinter fleet and destroy it. If it ever regains full power the fleet could possibly wipe out large portions of any empire it comes in contact with.

So how exactly do the Tyranids obtain the bio-mass to effectively protect every single organism with Terminator or greater armour and protect themselves against lasguns? Using the anti-pulse adaptation that didn't work with lasguns? Or just adapt again? Gorgon is GONE. There are thousands of fleets, it's the only one to adapt to pulse-rifles, didn't do it for kinetic rounds. Why haven't the others yet? Despite being able to adapt to any other situation? Firstly, because doing so when attacking the Imperium would be inefficient, and secondly, because there is no need to.

iproxtaco wrote:Explain how the Tyranids would somehow manage to create protection on their base Termagaunts that is greater than Power-armour. They do not have the resources to create trillions of organisms like that, else they would have done it already.

And it's never described as insulating against heat, so you're all wrong. Plasma is different to lasers. One is gas, the other is light. One is heated gas, the other is heated light. This modification the Tyranids had was clearly effective against Gas. The properties of the plasma obviously had a weakness which the Tyranids exploited. You'd think that if the same were true of Bolters and lasguns, at least a few of the splinter fleets that the Imperium have to deal with would adapt in some way. Obviously not.
I won't bother going over the difference between a kinetic bolter round and an energy based Pule round. Clearly the logic is lost on some people.

Great use of a combination of fluff and in-game rules to make sure you have the best argument by the way. If I were to do that, my Grey Knights would obliterate nearly everything, but I don't have an inflated opinion of my fictional army.

Um, Plasma is not actually a gas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_%28physics%29

Light is just the visible portion of the EM spectrum, or which heat is a part. A lasgun heats a target through high irradiance.

A plasma weapon, as described in 40k, would also effect the target through emitting MORE heat over a shorter distance.

Now I'll take a deep breath, and try to explain to you that both would effect it in exactly the same way, and that it doesn't matter if it's a laser, hot plasma, gas, or even magma, as all of them are damaging the target through direct application of enough heat.

However, I have the feeling that pointing out that there's a hole in your reasoning big enough to park a landraider Crusader in would simply have you jerking off to the idea of a landraider crusader.


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iproxtaco wrote:So how exactly do the Tyranids obtain the bio-mass to effectively protect every single organism with Terminator or greater armour and protect themselves against lasguns? Using the anti-pulse adaptation that didn't work with lasguns? Or just adapt again? Gorgon is GONE. There are thousands of fleets, it's the only one to adapt to pulse-rifles, didn't do it for kinetic rounds. Why haven't the others yet? Despite being able to adapt to any other situation? Firstly, because doing so when attacking the Imperium would be inefficient, and secondly, because there is no need to.

So, wait, adapting to the only weapons separating you from the largest chunk of digestible biomassi in the galaxy would not be worth the payoff? Either the hivemind practices Reaganomics or you might want to re think this.


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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Perhaps it can dissipate gentle puffs of unusually warm air better than it can withstand real weapons?

Yes, because it's so much harder to withstand a flashlights beams then it is to withstand being hit with a chunk of a star. I'm an IG fan, and I think you need to put down the obscura pipe.

What? That this adaptation wasn't actually about dissipating heat? That's a hole in your reasoning, not mine.
Regardless of whether Plasma is a gas, solid or a form of matter similar to gas ( which I admit is a big mistake on my part), it still has properties which Gorgon exploited, but which had no effect on the lasgun.

iproxtaco wrote:Explain how the Tyranids would somehow manage to create protection on their base Termagaunts that is greater than Power-armour. They do not have the resources to create trillions of organisms like that, else they would have done it already.

And it's never described as insulating against heat, so you're all wrong. Plasma is different to lasers. One is gas, the other is light. One is heated gas, the other is heated light. This modification the Tyranids had was clearly effective against Gas. The properties of the plasma obviously had a weakness which the Tyranids exploited. You'd think that if the same were true of Bolters and lasguns, at least a few of the splinter fleets that the Imperium have to deal with would adapt in some way. Obviously not.
I won't bother going over the difference between a kinetic bolter round and an energy based Pule round. Clearly the logic is lost on some people.

Great use of a combination of fluff and in-game rules to make sure you have the best argument by the way. If I were to do that, my Grey Knights would obliterate nearly everything, but I don't have an inflated opinion of my fictional army.

Um. I don't think that makes sense. Both plasma and lasers do damage by heat. It's not like the heat generated from hot gas is all that different from the heat from a laser. How would you make an armor that blocks plasma, but not lasers? The nest I can think of is some kind of gel based body that allows plasma to fly through it well blocking lasers... and that just raises more problems then answers, so ya.

Nerivant wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
Except that makes no sense, because a lasgun damages a target by a laser burning through it. A pulse rifle deals damage by converting a small amount of matter to plasma which hits the target, burning through it.


So, how does a modification that insulates from the much more powerful thermal effect of a pulse rifle not totally ignore a lasgun's pitiful output?

Took the words right out of my mouth. If it's some kind of coating that dissipates thermal energy; it's going to stop as lasgun as well as a pulse rifle. Flamers too, probably. The IG wouldn't be able to stop them, and the SM don't have the numbers for it.

The thing is it never really says what exactly the Cadians had that the Tyranids "couldn't adapt to".

Maybe it was a difference in the scale of the heat or frequency of the wavelengths utilized by the pulse rifles v lasguns, or maybe it was the inevitable swathes of heavy bolters, autocannons, mortars, and missile launchers that they likely had as well.

iproxtaco wrote:The rail-rifles are still huge, complicated, unwieldy with a low rate of fire

Huge?... They're the same size as pulse rifles! Something like holding a 2x4 piece of lumber... And probably not much heavier. Tau don't do 'unwieldy'. Low rate of fire? Yes. Rail Rifles are used much like sniper rifles... Hence the 'causes pinning'. The low rate of fire is probably the only thing that makes them a specialist weapon, and unfit for standard issue. They're heavy weapons for the same reason sniper rifles are heavy weapons. Not because they're actually heavy.

give me the source which states that they have been adapted to pulse-rifle ease of use.

Where's your source that says 'rail-rifles are huge, complicated, and unwieldy.'
And I believe that quote was given, pg 29 of the Tau codex, remember? They were brought into use by front line troops (meaning vanguard/scout units e.g. Pathfinders) after extensive field testing.

iproxtaco wrote:What? That this adaptation wasn't actually about dissipating heat? That's a hole in your reasoning, not mine.
Regardless of whether Plasma is a gas, solid or a form of matter similar to gas ( which I admit is a big mistake on my part), it still has properties which Gorgon exploited, but which had no effect on the lasgun.

Because if it doesn't dissipate heat, then it has no way to stop a plasma round. Anything that would shield the target from a plasma weapon would also shield it from a lasgun.

It's like saying it's shielded against hellguns but not lasguns.

You're missing the key part of the rail rifle, actually.

What makes them "complicated and unwieldy" is the fact that they require target lock mechanisms that aren't on the standard Fire Warrior gear, but are with the Pathfinder stuff.

Where does it get the bio-mass in the first place to start this adaptive process? It needs A LOT to equip billions with terminator armour to take on Astartes, more to protect against the lasgun. The fleet only learns from experience.

Kanluwen wrote:
Maybe it was a difference in the scale of the heat or frequency of the wavelengths utilized by the pulse rifles v lasguns, or maybe it was the inevitable swathes of heavy bolters, autocannons, mortars, and missile launchers that they likely had as well.

Actually, it's quite obvious what the Cadians had: plot armor.

That aside: the DKoK ran into a similar problem with Necrons and lasguns doing nothing. And, despite suicide squads throwing themselves at the necrons while their comrades meltagunned them to death while they grappled thier foes, in the end the DKoK lost and was forced to withdraw from the planet.

Archonate wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The rail-rifles are still huge, complicated, unwieldy with a low rate of fire

Huge?... They're the same size as pulse rifles! Something like holding a 2x4 piece of lumber... And probably not much heavier. Tau don't do 'unwieldy'. Low rate of fire? Yes. Rail Rifles are used much like sniper rifles... Hence the 'causes pinning'. The low rate of fire is probably the only thing that makes them a specialist weapon, and unfit for standard issue. They're heavy weapons for the same reason sniper rifles are heavy weapons. Not because they're actually heavy.

give me the source which states that they have been adapted to pulse-rifle ease of use.

Where's your source that says 'rail-rifles are huge, complicated, and unwieldy.'
And I believe that quote was given, pg 29 of the Tau codex, remember? They were brought into use by front line troops (meaning vanguard/scout units e.g. Pathfinders) after extensive field testing.

The models. The fact that it's larger, thus more complicated, and the fact that it's a rail-rifle, involving complicated technology. Unwieldy because they're big. Specialists Weapon with a low rate of fire used by scout roles, hence low ammo.
All of the above makes them unsuitable for general infantry.

And that's been stated before. Still not addressing the point though. They still aren't used or being tested as a replacement or counterpart for the Pulse Rifle, which was the original point.

iproxtaco wrote:Where does it get the bio-mass in the first place to start this adaptive process? It needs A LOT to equip billions with terminator armour to take on Astartes, more to protect against the lasgun. The fleet only learns from experience.

Which would be the biomass the hive fleet carries with it from world to world. Given the difference in tonnage you're looking at.... well, you're looking at a single undernourished drone ship in exchange for an unstoppable tide of bioconstructs overrunning entire planets.

I call that a short term problem/long term solution.

BaronIveagh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:What? That this adaptation wasn't actually about dissipating heat? That's a hole in your reasoning, not mine.
Regardless of whether Plasma is a gas, solid or a form of matter similar to gas ( which I admit is a big mistake on my part), it still has properties which Gorgon exploited, but which had no effect on the lasgun.

Because if it doesn't dissipate heat, then it has no way to stop a plasma round. Anything that would shield the target from a plasma weapon would also shield it from a lasgun.

It's like saying it's shielded against hellguns but not lasguns.

Why? Different properties, which the adaptation obviously exploited. Not that difficult to understand. It says nothing about dissipating heat. It protects against pulse-rifle hits, not against lasgun hits, therefore, NOT HEAT.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Maybe it was a difference in the scale of the heat or frequency of the wavelengths utilized by the pulse rifles v lasguns, or maybe it was the inevitable swathes of heavy bolters, autocannons, mortars, and missile launchers that they likely had as well.

Actually, it's quite obvious what the Cadians had: plot armor.

That aside: the DKoK ran into a similar problem with Necrons and lasguns doing nothing. And, despite suicide squads throwing themselves at the necrons while their comrades meltagunned them to death while they grappled thier foes, in the end the DKoK lost and was forced to withdraw from the planet.

You're misquoting Dead Men Walking.

The lasguns weren't "doing nothing".

But it was taking alot to put them down. Their hellguns and meltaguns were what was effectively winning the day, so in typical Krieg fashion...the lasgunners kept fire going and did everything they could to ensure that the Grenadiers armed with both were able to stay in the fight.

It should be telling that one of the Krieg training sergeants assigned to the PDF told them that "if they knew they were about to die, to throw their lasgun clear so that the Quartermasters could collect it for another soldier to use".