Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

VoidAngel wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Wonder how GW will translate "Holocaust power" into German

Roughly, "Power-that-kills-a-great-many-but-has-nothing-to-do-with-historical-events-or-our-national-identity-and-really-almost-all-those-responsible-are-dead-and-we-modern-Germans-aren't-them-anymore-than-you-Americans-are-slave-owners-so-let's-alls-remember-our-predecessor's-mistakes-but-not-dwell-on-them-eh?"

I think - but my German was never that good. I may be a word or two off.

I would be forced to buy the army just to use that power.

Anavrin wrote:

VoidAngel wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Wonder how GW will translate "Holocaust power" into German

Roughly, "Power-that-kills-a-great-many-but-has-nothing-to-do-with-historical-events-or-our-national-identity-and-really-almost-all-those-responsible-are-dead-and-we-modern-Germans-aren't-them-anymore-than-you-Americans-are-slave-owners-so-let's-alls-remember-our-predecessor's-mistakes-but-not-dwell-on-them-eh?"

I think - but my German was never that good. I may be a word or two off.

I would be forced to buy the army just to use that power.

I would get a 2000 point army, and every single unit would have the power. And I would use its full title every time I said it.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

bhsman wrote:

The word 'Holocaust' isn't a German one, so it probably stayed the same? If you access the German website for the Daemonhunters .pdf you can probably check for yourself.

I think he was referring to the hypersensitivity to the subject that most Germans display. When I was in Germany, I had two different people apologize for the actions of their country in WW2. It was somewhat surreal.

i don't know if its really hypersensitivity when some of the victims as well as perpetrators are still alive regarding an event as widespread and evil as the holocaust. we're not talking about some slaughter of barbarian villagers during the pax romana; the event is still a part of the living memory of millions.

As it rightly should be. However, it should not shape the lives of the innocent; at least not past understanding what happened well enough to make sure it can't again.

Quick rundown of psychic powers in DH:

- Verbannung
- Dämonenbann
- Hammerfaust
- Inferno
- Bannkreis
- Vernichtung
- Wort des Imperators

Only Heroes of the GK could choose, GKT squads could have Inferno.

Go pick your "holocaust".

I'd like to see every GK having access to psychic powers.
And I'd welcome a change from "template" powers to hit the whole enemy unit.Without a possible backlash..


Just remember: indoctrinating people and wondering when it gets "surreal" ...... some actions come right back to you.

I have 3 swquads of 9 stormtroops in rhionos. I hope I can still use them in some way, I dont want to have to repaint them so they fit in with my guard army. I left 1 space per squad to include a sergeant with each if I ever needed to include them with my guard

I am really doubting ISTs are 100% gone. Sure theres a chance the whole codex has simply gone power armor, but surely they would leave some unpowerarmoured humans in there?

1hadhq wrote:Go pick your "holocaust".

I'd rather pass, thank you!

Back on topic: Rumours said that there are IST somewhere in the Codex, even if only with a special character or as special retinue.

Yeah. To play a non-GK army you will require a Special Char.

i am really getting anoyed by GW that if you want too play a style you will have too get a SC. but i doubt the storm troppers will be out the list. where highly specialiset and low in numbers but hey i found this complete army.

I agree, I'd also rather there was less emphasis on SC's.

However, we still don't actually know if this will be the case with the Grey Knight Codex. We have no real evidence...

Almost every Codex since the Dark Angels has included special chars that shape your army. Why would the GK Codex be any different?

Stormies will only be fieldable as an army via unlocking. Mark my words.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Almost every Codex since the Dark Angels has included special chars that shape your army. Why would the GK Codex be any different?

Stormies will only be fieldable as an army via unlocking. Mark my words.

I'm not denying this, not at all.

However, I don't feel you should start 'complaining' about Special Characters restricting such and such within the GK Codex until you have actual evidence.
Particularly as, for example, you may have someone come along, see someone on the internet() say that Storm Troopers WILL require a special character then claim the world is going to end and whatnot.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, but it's not a case of they WILL. It's a case of I THINK they will.

I know, I know, it's just semantics, but I don't feel it's right to pass judgement without any 'evidence' per se.


Personally, for what it's worth, I feel that they will require a Inquisitor HQ choice, but not a special character.

Not really sure what the problem with special characters is to be honest.

I'm sure there'd be precisely the same amount of complaints if they weren't available at all.

Personally, for me I don't mind Storm Troopers for example requiring an Inquisitor Lord to have as troops.
However, I WOULD NOT like a special character to force me into such a case. Special Characters in these cases can almost force the player to field them and therefore limit the personal aspect of their army as it were...

I've not explained it very well I admit, but I think the Space Marine Biker Captain is a much better mechanic than having to take, for example, Sammael.

I think requiring a Special Character is fine for some of the more 'off the wall' builds, such as all Wolf Guard, or scoring Stern-guard.
But for something as fundamental as Storm Troopers, I'd say it's a bit much.

Obviously that's just my personal opinion and speculation too.

Marked.

GK codex follows the design of 5th ed codices. Why should it be different?

The only confirmed kit is the StormRaven.
The name seems to imply its a Grey Knights codex.
The Inquisition moves back into the shadows....

Mr Mystery wrote:Not really sure what the problem with special characters is to be honest.

I'm sure there'd be precisely the same amount of complaints if they weren't available at all.

You're really good at missing the mark and once again have jumped into debate against something no one has actually said. No one has said Special Chars shouldn't be available, so please get a clue the next time you try and post something like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:However, I don't feel you should start 'complaining' about Special Characters restricting such and such within the GK Codex until you have actual evidence.

...

Personally, for what it's worth, I feel that they will require a Inquisitor HQ choice, but not a special character.

Just because you don't have evidence does not mean that I don't have evidence. Remember that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Just Dave wrote:However, I don't feel you should start 'complaining' about Special Characters restricting such and such within the GK Codex until you have actual evidence.

...

Personally, for what it's worth, I feel that they will require a Inquisitor HQ choice, but not a special character.

Just because you don't have evidence does not mean that I don't have evidence. Remember that.

If you have evidence then it's a perfectly reasonable criticism. Admittedly, you still haven't done more than imply that you do have evidence...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Not really sure what the problem with special characters is to be honest.

I'm sure there'd be precisely the same amount of complaints if they weren't available at all.

You're really good at missing the mark and once again have jumped into debate against something no one has actually said. No one has said Special Chars shouldn't be available, so please get a clue the next time you try and post something like this.

I think Mr.M meant if ISTs weren't available, not SCs.

No, I'm fairly sure he's talking about Special Characters.

Anyway... part of the problem is that many people don't like fielding SC's to unlock certain elements because you're then 'forced' into whatever advantages/disadvantages/wargear/etc. of that SC to be able to play the army you want to play.

A better example is from the SM Codex.

You want to field bikes as troops?

Just field a SM Captain on a bike! Arm him however you want, you're good to go!

If you had to field a SC to do that, it would be much more limiting, restrictive, etc.

This is even MORE so if you have to field a SC in order to 'unlock' Stormtroopers as troops - something many of us have from the last codex.

But, as Just Dave mentioned, we don't know this sure.

Odds are it will be the case, but, who knows?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Not really sure what the problem with special characters is to be honest.

I'm sure there'd be precisely the same amount of complaints if they weren't available at all.

You're really good at missing the mark and once again have jumped into debate against something no one has actually said. No one has said Special Chars shouldn't be available, so please get a clue the next time you try and post something like this.

You're really good at missing the mark and once again have jumped into debate against something no one has actually said , so please get a clue the next time you try and post something like this. too say it with your own words he didnt talked about the Gk SC but he asked what my problem was against SC. [Mod Edit - Please, no.]

and mr Mystery my problem against SC is that is want to make my ow character and play a perticualar force and not being forced too use a sc just because i want too field a full terminator army. so i dont have a problem with sc but the rules they are given in order for me too field a special army

Last question first: Termies have a 5+ Inv save apart from the 2+ AS. Artificer armor is only 2+.

An earlier rumor suggested that on the FW front the unit would roll one LD test. If it went off, they worked as FW, if not they didn't (and possibly a Perils test?). As for how it will work against units of multi wound models, does this not already come up? Are there not instances of multiple powerfists/high strength attacks striking multiwound units? What happens when Autocannons or AC's or Ion Cannons hit T3 multiwound units? I don't see the answer to these questions being much different to the one you posed.

So why exactly will I ever want to pay 20-ish points more per model just for the added 5+ inv save?

And a S10 weapon wounding multi wound models doesnt work like a force weapon.
If a S10 weapon causes 8 wounds on a grotesque squad then 8 models are removed, simple as that.

What if a force weapon wielding squad causes 8 wounds on a grotesque squad, should there be 8 separate Ld rolls for the force weapon effect per wound? One Ld test for all or will the squad simply instantkill one measly model?

The best way to make it fair for those who want to play Demon Hunters will be to make Inquisitorial Stormtroopers require an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord.

Fair and simple and you aren't as locked into one army as a SC would do.

fatty wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Not really sure what the problem with special characters is to be honest.

I'm sure there'd be precisely the same amount of complaints if they weren't available at all.

You're really good at missing the mark and once again have jumped into debate against something no one has actually said. No one has said Special Chars shouldn't be available, so please get a clue the next time you try and post something like this.

You're really good at missing the mark and once again have jumped into debate against something no one has actually said , so please get a clue the next time you try and post something like this. too say it with your own words he didnt talked about the Gk SC but he asked what my problem was against SC.

and mr Mystery my problem against SC is that is want to make my ow character and play a perticualar force and not being forced too use a sc just because i want too field a full terminator army. so i dont have a problem with sc but the rules they are given in order for me too field a special army

Mr Hyena wrote:The best way to make it fair for those who want to play Demon Hunters will be to make Inquisitorial Stormtroopers require an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord.

Fair and simple and you aren't as locked into one army as a SC would do.

This, it also makes more sense from a fluff standpoint. I imagine they'll be elites, and an inq. makes them either troops or scoring.

S_P

I don't really mind the special character thing anymore.

I suspect it will become more and more normal as the years/codex releases go on.

fatty wrote:You're really good at missing the mark and once again have jumped into debate against something no one has actually said , so please get a clue the next time you try and post something like this. too say it with your own words he didnt talked about the Gk SC but he asked what my problem was against SC. [Mod Edit - Please, no.]

and mr Mystery my problem against SC is that is want to make my ow character and play a perticualar force and not being forced too use a sc just because i want too field a full terminator army. so i dont have a problem with sc but the rules they are given in order for me too field a special army

I love how you can tell where you've copypasta'd my words and where you've typed your own, because you don't seem to know where the shift key on your keyboard is.

warboss wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

bhsman wrote:

The word 'Holocaust' isn't a German one, so it probably stayed the same? If you access the German website for the Daemonhunters .pdf you can probably check for yourself.

I think he was referring to the hypersensitivity to the subject that most Germans display. When I was in Germany, I had two different people apologize for the actions of their country in WW2. It was somewhat surreal.

i don't know if its really hypersensitivity when some of the victims as well as perpetrators are still alive regarding an event as widespread and evil as the holocaust. we're not talking about some slaughter of barbarian villagers during the pax romana; the event is still a part of the living memory of millions.

And one that neo-nazi groups around the world look to for inspiration and would do again if they could.

It's far from dead history.

If there were skinhead gangs modeling themselves on Roman Legions and looking to put the Hun to a sword we might look at Roman history differently too.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
If there were skinhead gangs modeling themselves on Roman Legions and looking to put the Hun to a sword we might look at Roman history differently too.

Hrm...

Pyriel- wrote:

Last question first: Termies have a 5+ Inv save apart from the 2+ AS. Artificer armor is only 2+.

An earlier rumor suggested that on the FW front the unit would roll one LD test. If it went off, they worked as FW, if not they didn't (and possibly a Perils test?). As for how it will work against units of multi wound models, does this not already come up? Are there not instances of multiple powerfists/high strength attacks striking multiwound units? What happens when Autocannons or AC's or Ion Cannons hit T3 multiwound units? I don't see the answer to these questions being much different to the one you posed.

So why exactly will I ever want to pay 20-ish points more per model just for the added 5+ inv save?

And a S10 weapon wounding multi wound models doesnt work like a force weapon.
If a S10 weapon causes 8 wounds on a grotesque squad then 8 models are removed, simple as that.

What if a force weapon wielding squad causes 8 wounds on a grotesque squad, should there be 8 separate Ld rolls for the force weapon effect per wound? One Ld test for all or will the squad simply instantkill one measly model?

As to the first matter, well I would say you are largely correct, though the exact nature of wargear and points comparisons has yet to be seen, so I will with hold judgment on that matter until the book comes out.

And is instakill really so different in effect from forceweapons that they would not remove models in exactly the same fashion?

Your third question was answered. An early rumor believes that the unit makes one LD test, and if passed, all attacks in the unit will act as FW.