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aka_mythos wrote:Now I'm feeling like I missed the opportunity to make a smarmy remark about how he's wrong since precedent clearly shows DA and BA will be reintegrated into a single book.

It's never too late to snark

IdentifyZero wrote:It might sound pretty off the wall, but there is nothing stopping anyone from just using the Dark Angels rules as Fallen. It makes the most sense anyways.

Nope, the Dark Angels as a chapter are organized to hunt the Fallen. That would mean the Fallen operate as if they were....hunting...themselves?

DODcrazy wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:It might sound pretty off the wall, but there is nothing stopping anyone from just using the Dark Angels rules as Fallen. It makes the most sense anyways.

Nope, the Dark Angels as a chapter are organized to hunt the Fallen. That would mean the Fallen operate as if they were....hunting...themselves?

The implication is the best representation of rules for The Fallen are the Dark Angels themselves, for obvious reasons. If you fail to see this, I would assume you miss out on a great deal.

Well there's another problem, in that The Fallen aren't organized into anything remotely resembling a cohesive force.

Fielding an "Army of the Fallen" using the Codex: Dark Angels would be like fielding an "Army of Inquisitors" using Codex: Imperial Guard, with what should be a force consisting of nothing but decently powerful characters and their army of pawns/retainers.

Kanluwen wrote:Well there's another problem, in that The Fallen aren't organized into anything remotely resembling a cohesive force.

Fielding an "Army of the Fallen" using the Codex: Dark Angels would be like fielding an "Army of Inquisitors" using Codex: Imperial Guard, with what should be a force consisting of nothing but decently powerful characters and their army of pawns/retainers.

Is this because you said so?

If you bother to read the back story at all, you would know most of The Fallen would pretty much consider the original chapter the traitors. They weren't willing pawns or even servants of the Chaos Gods who pledged themselves, unlike the traitor legions.

Taking it a step further, Chaos Space Marines are upwards of ten millenia old, having fought in the heresy in some cases. I guess Codex: Chaos Space Marines doesn't really do a good job of representing these 'decently powerful characters' either. Since a Space Marine in the lore is considered much stronger then a normal human, far superior in every way, I suppose in comparison to the Imperial Guard codex and every other Codex they are under powered given their status as supermen.

See where this is going?

If you wanted to field an army of The Fallen, you would be using Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Then again, neither of those, according to your unique form of logic, would adequately even represent the forces they are intended to represent.

IdentifyZero wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Well there's another problem, in that The Fallen aren't organized into anything remotely resembling a cohesive force.

Fielding an "Army of the Fallen" using the Codex: Dark Angels would be like fielding an "Army of Inquisitors" using Codex: Imperial Guard, with what should be a force consisting of nothing but decently powerful characters and their army of pawns/retainers.

Is this because you said so?

No, this is because per GW the Fallen do not all exist together nor do they group together in anything larger than "small bands". The majority of them become warlords and mercenaries, "rising to positions of considerable power, taking control of entire armies of lesser men and leading them to their destruction for the Fallen's own ends. Some have ruled entire planetary empires, sowing death and misery across whole sectors and waging bitter wars that have lasted decades and cost the lives of billions".

If you bother to read the back story at all, you would know most of The Fallen would pretty much consider the original chapter the traitors. They weren't willing pawns or even servants of the Chaos Gods who pledged themselves, unlike the traitor legions.

I've read the backstory. I've got not just the current codex sitting in front of me, but the mini-dex prior to this one on hand.

That bit about "The Fallen considering the original chapter the traitors"? That's from "Angel of Darkness" by Gav Thorpe.
The two Horus Heresy novels, "Fallen Angels" and "Descent of Angels" both deal with the whole thing leading up to the Fall a bit better.
To make a long story short:
They don't consider them "traitors". They felt that they were being punished for some imaginary transgression. It was a massive case of a persecution complex running amok.

Taking it a step further, Chaos Space Marines are upwards of ten millenia old, having fought in the heresy in some cases. I guess Codex: Chaos Space Marines doesn't really do a good job of representing these 'decently powerful characters' either. Since a Space Marine in the lore is considered much stronger then a normal human, far superior in every way, I suppose in comparison to the Imperial Guard codex and every other Codex they are under powered given their status as supermen.

See where this is going?
If you wanted to field an army of The Fallen, you would be using Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Then again, neither of those, according to your unique form of logic, would adequately even represent the forces they are intended to represent.

Hyperbolic comparisons unrelated to the issue at hand?

CSM could very well stand to take a buff, certainly, for the Legionnaires who are "upwards of ten millenia old". Sadly though the current CSM book is dealing with renegades, those Astartes who have turned since after the Horus Heresy. They're "on par" with the standard Space Marines.

I digress. The point is that it's not a case of stats. It's a case of the idea simply not being feasible per how the Fallen have always been represented in the fluff. They are not an organized group, and the only time they group in any decent numbers is when Cypher leads them. You're confusing my statement with one I did not actually make.

There's a reason that Cypher was a character in the previous Codex: Chaos Space Marines and not the mini-Codex: Dark Angels. There's also a reason why he was basically set up to allow you to take a "squad of Fallen Angels" rather than an army of Fallen Angels.

Kanluwen wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Well there's another problem, in that The Fallen aren't organized into anything remotely resembling a cohesive force.

Fielding an "Army of the Fallen" using the Codex: Dark Angels would be like fielding an "Army of Inquisitors" using Codex: Imperial Guard, with what should be a force consisting of nothing but decently powerful characters and their army of pawns/retainers.

Is this because you said so?

No, this is because per GW the Fallen do not all exist together nor do they group together in anything larger than "small bands". The majority of them become warlords and mercenaries, "rising to positions of considerable power, taking control of entire armies of lesser men and leading them to their destruction for the Fallen's own ends. Some have ruled entire planetary empires, sowing death and misery across whole sectors and waging bitter wars that have lasted decades and cost the lives of billions".

If you bother to read the back story at all, you would know most of The Fallen would pretty much consider the original chapter the traitors. They weren't willing pawns or even servants of the Chaos Gods who pledged themselves, unlike the traitor legions.

I've read the backstory. I've got not just the current codex sitting in front of me, but the mini-dex prior to this one on hand.

That bit about "The Fallen considering the original chapter the traitors"? That's from "Angel of Darkness" by Gav Thorpe.
The two Horus Heresy novels, "Fallen Angels" and "Descent of Angels" both deal with the whole thing leading up to the Fall a bit better.
To make a long story short:
They don't consider them "traitors". They felt that they were being punished for some imaginary transgression. It was a massive case of a persecution complex running amok.

Taking it a step further, Chaos Space Marines are upwards of ten millenia old, having fought in the heresy in some cases. I guess Codex: Chaos Space Marines doesn't really do a good job of representing these 'decently powerful characters' either. Since a Space Marine in the lore is considered much stronger then a normal human, far superior in every way, I suppose in comparison to the Imperial Guard codex and every other Codex they are under powered given their status as supermen.

See where this is going?
If you wanted to field an army of The Fallen, you would be using Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Then again, neither of those, according to your unique form of logic, would adequately even represent the forces they are intended to represent.

Hyperbolic comparisons unrelated to the issue at hand?

CSM could very well stand to take a buff, certainly, for the Legionnaires who are "upwards of ten millenia old". Sadly though the current CSM book is dealing with renegades, those Astartes who have turned since after the Horus Heresy. They're "on par" with the standard Space Marines.

I digress. The point is that it's not a case of stats. It's a case of the idea simply not being feasible per how the Fallen have always been represented in the fluff. They are not an organized group, and the only time they group in any decent numbers is when Cypher leads them. You're confusing my statement with one I did not actually make.

There's a reason that Cypher was a character in the previous Codex: Chaos Space Marines and not the mini-Codex: Dark Angels. There's also a reason why he was basically set up to allow you to take a "squad of Fallen Angels" rather than an army of Fallen Angels.

I was going to waste time replying to the rest of what you said, until your last bit about the current chaos codex. That sort of misguided argument of facts, makes so much else posted invalidated.

The current chaos codex covers all Chaos Space Marines, legions included. There has been enough discussion about this on Dakka as it is. Just because you want it to be solely about renegades who just fell, it is not. Every space marine including those who fell during the heresy are 'renegades', so in that regard your description is correct.

Also, just as an aside, most 40k armies are 'small bands' especially when it comes to marines. There is nothing stopping you from making a Fallen Angels army whether as a small band of a few squads or a company sized force if you wanted.

IdentifyZero wrote:
I was going to waste time replying to the rest of what you said, until your last bit about the current chaos codex. That sort of misguided argument of facts, makes so much else posted invalidated.

The current chaos codex covers all Chaos Space Marines, legions included. There has been enough discussion about this on Dakka as it is. Just because you want it to be solely about renegades who just fell, it is not. Every space marine including those who fell during the heresy are 'renegades', so in that regard your description is correct.

Also, just as an aside, most 40k armies are 'small bands' especially when it comes to marines. There is nothing stopping you from making a Fallen Angels army whether as a small band of a few squads or a company sized force if you wanted.

The Fallen Angels were scattered by the Ruinous Powers, not just through space--but through time itself. Members of the Fallen will appear on planets, with what feels like no time at all between the "present" and the Fall of Caliban.
It's also worth noting that finding the Fallen is absurdly difficult. They're not exactly advertising themselves by having a "Hey guys, black robe party over here!" sign hanging around. The Dark Angels (and their Successor Chapters for that matter) will go to war simply because they have found someone who might know where to start looking for a member of the Fallen. Look at the "Siege of Vraks" books for that one.

The "renegades" bit? That's from the writer of the Codex, Gav Thorpe, himself. It was to be a three book set for Chaos: Renegades, Legions, and Daemons. Codex Chaos Space Marines was to be the "renegades" book. There's a very good reason that the Red Corsairs were focused upon so heavily for the book, and it wasn't because of how handsome Huron is in comparison to his erstwhile buccaneer compatriot Captain Jack Sparrow.

Kanluwen wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:
I was going to waste time replying to the rest of what you said, until your last bit about the current chaos codex. That sort of misguided argument of facts, makes so much else posted invalidated.

The current chaos codex covers all Chaos Space Marines, legions included. There has been enough discussion about this on Dakka as it is. Just because you want it to be solely about renegades who just fell, it is not. Every space marine including those who fell during the heresy are 'renegades', so in that regard your description is correct.

Also, just as an aside, most 40k armies are 'small bands' especially when it comes to marines. There is nothing stopping you from making a Fallen Angels army whether as a small band of a few squads or a company sized force if you wanted.

The Fallen Angels were scattered by the Ruinous Powers, not just through space--but through time itself. Members of the Fallen will appear on planets, with what feels like no time at all between the "present" and the Fall of Caliban.
It's also worth noting that finding the Fallen is absurdly difficult. They're not exactly advertising themselves by having a "Hey guys, black robe party over here!" sign hanging around. The Dark Angels (and their Successor Chapters for that matter) will go to war simply because they have found someone who might know where to start looking for a member of the Fallen. Look at the "Siege of Vraks" books for that one.

The "renegades" bit? That's from the writer of the Codex, Gav Thorpe, himself. It was to be a three book set for Chaos: Renegades, Legions, and Daemons. Codex Chaos Space Marines was to be the "renegades" book. There's a very good reason that the Red Corsairs were focused upon so heavily for the book, and it wasn't because of how handsome Huron is in comparison to his erstwhile buccaneer compatriot Captain Jack Sparrow.

None of this stops you from making an army of The Fallen if you want to.

I don't see why you're arguing against the right of someone to do it. The lore lends itself well to any number of possibilities if that is a concern for anyone. Given the 'unique' things people make into armies that has no logical sense (Bobbleheads, my little ponies etc..).

There is plenty of possibility to have a force of Fallen appear out of the warp and thrust into a battlefield, forced to fight over and over, never dying at the end of each battle and reappearing only to begin another assault in another war zone in another time. Just one example.

I mean, 40k has Draigo planet hopping through the eye of terror one upping daemon princes for fun.

IdentifyZero wrote:
None of this stops you from making an army of The Fallen if you want to.

Of course not. Nothing can stop anyone from doing whatever the hell they want with their armies.

That said...

I don't see why you're arguing against the right of someone to do it.

Did you really just leap to the argument of "the right of someone to do it"?
They have the "right" to make the army, just like I have the "right" to mark them down in a tournament where an army is supposed to be based upon a "fluff" concept.

I will not hesitate, especially if it is quite clear that they've done nothing but just use robed Marines and random bits/iconography to be able to point at and say "Look, they're not just X, they're Y and Z too!".

The lore lends itself well to any number of possibilities if that is a concern for anyone.

For many people I'm sure it is. For myself? The lore comes first, gameplay of my force comes second.
I will not field Vendettas in my Guard force. Valkyries? I have no issue with that, as the Valkyrie is something with a pedigree. The Vendetta is a redheaded stepchild, a creation of Robin Cruddace for some silly reason rather than just including the Vulture Gunship.
By that same vein, I will not field my Dark Angels force as Grey Knights or whatever flavor of Marine is best that week.

Given the 'unique' things people make into armies that has no logical sense (Bobbleheads, my little ponies etc..).

"Joke" armies are where things get kind of strange. If they're done well: people will love them. If they're done poorly: they will be lambasted.

There is plenty of possibility to have a force of Fallen appear out of the warp and thrust into a battlefield, forced to fight over and over, never dying at the end of each battle and reappearing only to begin another assault in another war zone in another time. Just one example.

Ehhhh...
That's kind of reaching, in my own opinion.

If someone does a Fallen force well? Hats off to them. If they do a Black Legion force with a squad of Fallen as "Chosen"? Awesome.

But more often than not, whenever I see people try to do "counts as" they do nothing to make the subject their own. They do the bare minimum to make it clear that it is not X, but rather it might be Y!

I mean, 40k has Draigo planet hopping through the eye of terror one upping daemon princes for fun.

Somehow, I knew we were reaching that point where inevitably someone has to reach for the "Draigo" card to justify something.

Firstly, let's clear something up.
The Eye of Terror is not the Warp.
Draigo is trapped within the Warp, not the Eye of Terror.
The Eye of Terror is a section of space where the rules of the Warp have bled onto reality. It is a place where the laws of nature do not apply.
The Warp is another dimension entirely.

IdentityZero, no ones arguing against an individuals right to build whatever army they want using whatever codex they want. This discussion on Fallen Angels spiraled out from the assertion that the adversary rules present in the old Daemonhunter and Witchhunter codices were precedent for the Fallens inclusion in the DA book... simply what was in those two Inquisition books is something that GW is moving away from. Is there other precedent, sure, but it still seems counterintuitive.

I have no problem at all with a player who wants to play a Fallen Angels army, or even a player who plays Fallen count-as whatever army. It just seems a stretch to imagine GW taking what's been a relatively niche concept and expanding it to the level of a whole army.

just do what i do, if i play chaos i just point at a model and go "that guys a fallen DA" ask if i can replace it with a fallen model i have (usually just a tac marine to keep it simple) and i then gun for it to kill it in CC, it has no game effect but it adds to the game for me and the oponent... its fun

Personally, I'd run Iron Hand Straken as a Fallen Angel. He's got a Marine statline, a S6 power weapon and so on, and he commands an entire army of renegades and puny humans.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Personally, I'd run Iron Hand Straken as a Fallen Angel. He's got a Marine statline, a S6 power weapon and so on, and he commands an entire army of renegades and puny humans.

Another good way is the Tyrant's Legion from IA9. They'd make a good Fallen force, since there's like 10 marines in it, and they're just using the humans for cover.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Personally, I'd run Iron Hand Straken as a Fallen Angel. He's got a Marine statline, a S6 power weapon and so on, and he commands an entire army of renegades and puny humans.

He's my favorite way to run a counts-as Chaos army in the game right now. You can even get all manner of mutants and monsters using some of the less than stellar units, like Ogryns and Rough Riders.

Brother SRM wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Gray knights got a henchmen army dual list. And sisters were a WD dex, and lost even their own basic witch hunter stuff.

Is that like saying Space Wolves got a dual list because they can take Fenrisian Wolves as troops? Or is it like saying Space Marines got a dual list because you can make bikers troops with a bike captain. Ooh, ooh! Orks aren't just a dual list, but a TRIPLE list because you can take Nobz as troops with a warboss, or Deff Dreads as troops with a Mek! One special character who shuffles the FOC slightly does not a second army list make. Even so, taking Coteaz doesn't restrict you from taking Grey Knights in your army, he just lets you use more henchmen. Even so, Kan is right; that's completely different from the old nemesis rules.

Actually it's more because they forcefully integrated Inquisitors with Gray Knights like some chewed up toy.. but yes I didn't know he was referring to those old rules. I forgot all about them honestly.

So Dark Angels use RED plasma?

Kroothawk wrote:mrtn posted this on Warseer:

If that's how they are painted, they do...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:If that's how they are painted, they do...

Wow, hope they have bits like that plasma gun in the new DA upgrade sprues. That's a nice looking gun

timd wrote:So Dark Angels use RED plasma?

Some of mine have red, some have blue. Plasma is just whatever color the painter feels like.

Brother SRM wrote:

timd wrote:So Dark Angels use RED plasma?

Some of mine have red, some have blue. Plasma is just whatever color the painter feels like.

I've done green plasma many times... ^.^

It's not the plasma that is blue or red. It is the magnetic coil and thus it depends on the materials of such coil.

Well I cant see anything screaming Not DA yet. I guess that if the fallen are in the new chaos codex it could be a trick but that would be pushing it a bit.

timd wrote:So Dark Angels use RED plasma?

He's about to make a "Gets Hot" roll.

How about this for the Fallen? I think it would make GW happy and get the flavor over...

1. If the DA player takes an Inquisitor Chaplain, he may purchase a squad or character of the fallen.

2. In addition the DA player may take up to the value of the Fallen as additional forces.

3. If done so, the DA player will give the Fallen squad/character to his opponent to use as he sees fit.

4. If the Fallen unit(s) is killed in HTH the DA may count it as an extra objective or 2 KP depending on the scenario. If the DA fails to capture (kill) the fallen, his opponent may claim an extra objective or 2 KP.

Extra models equals extra dollars...

DAaddict wrote:How about this for the Fallen? I think it would make GW happy and get the flavor over...

1. If the DA player takes an Inquisitor Chaplain, he may purchase a squad or character of the fallen.

2. In addition the DA player may take up to the value of the Fallen as additional forces.

3. If done so, the DA player will give the Fallen squad/character to his opponent to use as he sees fit.

4. If the Fallen unit(s) is killed in HTH the DA may count it as an extra objective or 2 KP depending on the scenario. If the DA fails to capture (kill) the fallen, his opponent may claim an extra objective or 2 KP.

Extra models equals extra dollars...

That does nothing to make GW happy or get the flavor over.

It just screws the Dark Angels player over by forcing them to pay for models they let their opponent use.

DAaddict wrote:How about this for the Fallen? I think it would make GW happy and get the flavor over...

1. If the DA player takes an Inquisitor Chaplain, he may purchase a squad or character of the fallen.

2. In addition the DA player may take up to the value of the Fallen as additional forces.

3. If done so, the DA player will give the Fallen squad/character to his opponent to use as he sees fit.

4. If the Fallen unit(s) is killed in HTH the DA may count it as an extra objective or 2 KP depending on the scenario. If the DA fails to capture (kill) the fallen, his opponent may claim an extra objective or 2 KP.

Extra models equals extra dollars...

Yeah how about a big plate of NO with an extra side of NO.

It sounds like he's confused and thinks Fallen are a DA unit... not the traitor, chaos lovers they are.

DODcrazy wrote:

DAaddict wrote:How about this for the Fallen? I think it would make GW happy and get the flavor over...

1. If the DA player takes an Inquisitor Chaplain, he may purchase a squad or character of the fallen.

2. In addition the DA player may take up to the value of the Fallen as additional forces.

3. If done so, the DA player will give the Fallen squad/character to his opponent to use as he sees fit.

4. If the Fallen unit(s) is killed in HTH the DA may count it as an extra objective or 2 KP depending on the scenario. If the DA fails to capture (kill) the fallen, his opponent may claim an extra objective or 2 KP.

Extra models equals extra dollars...

Yeah how about a big plate of NO with an extra side of NO.

bad idea how abotu we just designate his hq has info and must be captured problem solved

aka_mythos wrote:It sounds like he's confused and thinks Fallen are a DA unit... not the traitor, chaos lovers they are.

Y'know, the funny thing is most of the Fallen don't really have that much to do with Chaos.

Some certainly do, but most are just out for themselves at this point.