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Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Hordini wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with using some historically themed colors, and most people probably wouldn't recognize or automatically associate IG painted in a pseudo-Field Gray or with a bit of Splinter-pattern camo as "Nazi IG" anyway. The actual color of Field Gray varied so much throughout the war that it's almost pointless to discuss it much anyway.

But aren't we skirting the issue. It seems we're back to saying 'here's how to show your admiration for Nazi Germany without getting caught'.

Well, that wasn't my intent. I'm not sure that using a color scheme that utilizes Field Gray or a similar color is necessarily showing your admiration for Nazi Germany. The actual uniform color varied widely, and the Germans weren't the only ones to use similar colors, and its use wasn't restricted to the Third Reich. There are lots of 40k armies (especially IG) already out there that use a field gray color, and I don't think that's enough to call them "Nazi themed" or a way of showing admiration for the Third Reich, any more than using an olive drab color on Cadians makes them U.S. themed.

And also, could we stop bringing up the Death Korps of Krieg as an example of Nazi-themed armies? This is another example of how what a lot of 40k players think WWII German uniforms look like isn't really accurate. Somebody already said it, but the DKOK have just as much French influence as German, and they are more WWI-themed anyway.

Sorry about that Hordini.

Anyway, if it makes you happy and there is no malicious intent then start painting.

Eh, no need to apologize. That probably came off a bit more harsh than I meant i to.

I guess I understand why people bring up the DKOK, as they do have some strong (but mixed) historical influences (like many of GWs armies), but the important thing is that they are still clearly sci-fantasy miniatures, and they certainly don't feature real world iconography or imply it with things like armbands.

Why not just use historical minis then?

Ifurita wrote:I would just do it. Without the nazi symbology, it's hardly a super unique set of colors

I agree. It's the Nazi symbols or anything closely resembling them which sets people off.

Wow I leave for a day and a whole debate happens!

I appreciate everyone's opinion on the subject, both those for and against. A lively debate is much better than a lynching...

Kid Kyoto I actually did not mean to imply I was trying to cram as much Nazis as I could and get away with it. I wanted peoples opinions on if I painted this army a certain way, how much flak would I get.

And no I would not merely take what I think is Nazis garb and paint it on some Cadians. I am a History Grad, and I would put some effort into learning what is supposed to look like what. Im a stickler for detail.

As for a followup, the Cadian heads dont really fit the German style (look more like US or Canadian GI's). Does anyone know of any heads that would fit better?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Hordini wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with using some historically themed colors, and most people probably wouldn't recognize or automatically associate IG painted in a pseudo-Field Gray or with a bit of Splinter-pattern camo as "Nazi IG" anyway. The actual color of Field Gray varied so much throughout the war that it's almost pointless to discuss it much anyway.

But aren't we skirting the issue. It seems we're back to saying 'here's how to show your admiration for Nazi Germany without getting caught'.

I'd hate to call you out again, but I thought people decided you didn't get an opinion because of your "Jihad". The army its self isn't offensive to me, much like how a Nazi Germany Army wouldn't offend me, they're both great ideas as long as they are done tastefully. What bothers me most about your army and the fact that you post against a German Army is your blatant hypocrisy on the issue. Both themes are essentially the same something viewed as wrong and not PC yet you seem to think that because one is Muslims(Radical or Not) not Nazis, its instantly better than the other, when both have done horrible things.

Another thing that should be taken into consideration is the fact that there are still a lot of racist jerks who still flaunt the nazi imagery.

By putting it in your model army, you're basically drawing a connection between the neo-nazi's and your army. It's honestly a little much for people (and me).

While I respect artistic integrity and freedom of expression, there are reasons why genocides/nazi themed anything are innappropriate for our toy soldiers.

Also, on Stelek's blog he has a link to a pretty interesting read about "crossing the line".

http://lauby.blogspot.com/

I'm sure people will have mixed reactions to this, but I think he/she (although I think lauby is a dude) raises some pretty good points.

Hordini wrote:
Well, that wasn't my intent. I'm not sure that using a color scheme that utilizes Field Gray or a similar color is necessarily showing your admiration for Nazi Germany. The actual uniform color varied widely, and the Germans weren't the only ones to use similar colors, and its use wasn't restricted to the Third Reich. There are lots of 40k armies (especially IG) already out there that use a field gray color, and I don't think that's enough to call them "Nazi themed" or a way of showing admiration for the Third Reich, any more than using an olive drab color on Cadians makes them U.S. themed.

But he's not asking if using grey is a problem. I have a grey army. I have a gray army with WWII German helmets and a Nazi armored car in it. But I'm in no way trying to recreate the 3rd reich on the table top, any more than using Soviet armored cars means I'm a commie.

The original post asked about using a historically accurate Nazi paint scheme. He wants his army to look like the 3rd Reich. But not have anyone notice or get upset.

Well you can't have one without using their iconography and I must wonder why of all the historical paint schemes on Earth, why of all the paint schemes possible in the imagination ANYONE would choose Nazi German, especially if they say they don't admire the 3rd Reich. Then why emulate it?

Doesn't add up.

Let me preface this with the obligatory (though true): I'm Jewish.

The fact is, the US has become a world leader in the creation of a Cult of Offense Taking. To be Offended is to be empowered. The political correctness movement is the bedrock of all this ridiculousness, and establishes the special Rules of Offense, which we're all supposed to obey and potentially be empowered by.

So, there's a simple reason why it seems contradictory that one could play Nazis in FOW, but be shrieked at for playing a Nazi themed army in 40K: it's because it IS contradictory, stupid and ridiculous.

We're trying to paint evil armies. Did I paint my Tyranids to be harmless and friendly? My Chaos? Dark Eldar? Etc. Etc. No. They're supposed to be evil.

That said, and as has been covered by numerous people, you will no doubt get shrieked at for painting a heavily Nazi themed army. Being able to identify the ridiculousness of people's infantile morality does not mean you are exempt from being on the receiving end of it.

As has been hinted at in this thread, it's odd how the Nazis are the height of evil, while other equally terrible (or even worse) governments are given more of a pass.

Take Stalin and Mao, both of whom killed far more poeple than Hitler ever did. The conspiracy theorist in me says that the horrible acts of these Communist leaders are downplayed due to the political proximity of Communism to Socialism (which we're told is wonderful and benign). By comparison, Fascism is generally viewed as a corruption of the "right" side of the political spectrum, and thus a useful rhetorical ploy to attack conservative ideologies (ignoring the fact that the Nazis called themselves socialists).

So, take all that with a grain of salt, but consider this:

The fact that we're at a place where somebody's artistic expression, their creative outlet, their hobby, can make them a victim of censorship by their fellow hobbyist, sounds a lot like Fascism itself. You've got the citizenry itself acting as your vehicle of censorship, ostracizing and excluding those who don't toe the line.

In my opinion, if you really hate the Nazis and Fascism, a good place to start would be in learning to let other people do their thing, enjoy what they enjoy, paint how they want to paint, and not be your own one person Gestapo enforcement squad, making sure that "impure" thought is not permitted.

The opposite of totalitarian mind control isn't "totally sweet and correct totalitarian mind control." It's "not having totalitarian mind control."

ANYONE would choose Nazi German, especially if they say they don't admire the 3rd Reich. Then why emulate it?

Precisely because they don't? Because it's a symbol of evil?

Why did GW draw so heavily on the Nazis in their imagery? Do they admire the Nazis?

Actually, to some extent, we all do. We all admire the evilness of them. Their brutal efficiency, their command of imagery, propaganda, etc. They REALLY did evil.

It's like how people admire sharks. Do people actually LIKE sharks? Want to be friends? Play some XBox, have a beer? No. They admire how scary sharks are. How efficient they are as killers. How everything about them screams "killer sea monster." Is killing good? Is scariness good? No. But it still has a fearful appeal, like a trainwreck.

Phryxis wrote:
Take Stalin and Mao, both of whom killed far more poeple than Hitler ever did. The conspiracy theorist in me says that the horrible acts of these Communist leaders are downplayed due to the political proximity of Communism to Socialism (which we're told is wonderful and benign). By comparison, Fascism is generally viewed as a corruption of the "right" side of the political spectrum, and thus a useful rhetorical ploy to attack conservative ideologies (ignoring the fact that the Nazis called themselves socialists).

Oh jeez, I think the above statement made my IQ drop at LEAST several points...please try to put some thought into the words that you type, unless you truely believe that there is some grand conspiracy to "fight the right", and in that case, I would suggest that you:
- stop listening to Rush Limbaugh, (some village has been missing THAT idiot for far too long)
- stop playing so much Illuminati (wonderful game though it may be.)

please try to put some thought into the words that you type, unless you truely believe that there is some grand conspiracy to "fight the right", and in that case, I would suggest that you

No conspiracy required. If a group of likeminded people are all asked the same question, they don't have to have a shady backroom meeting to determine what they think. They're likeminded people. Their answers will tend to be similar.

And yes, I'm saying that the American media are "likeminded people."

Phryxis wrote:
No conspiracy required. If a group of likeminded people are all asked the same question, they don't have to have a shady backroom meeting to determine what they think. They're likeminded people. Their answers will tend to be similar.

And yes, I'm saying that the American media are "likeminded people."

While I will say I agree with you to a point, i will also say that I have given up on left and right. Neither one is vary useful the way they are these days.

Let me also point out that a discussion on this matter might be better suited else where. This thread is derailed easily enough as it is.

*Repenting to yakface for earlier transgression*

Lol I tried to bring it back with has anyone seen variant german style heads I can use when I build this army but no one was listening...damn soap box...

For German style helmets you could try Tamiya or Dragon models, though I'm not sure how effective that would be.

You could always try to file and green stuff helmets to make them look more like the M1934 Stahlhelm

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/227882.page

In this very forum... Looks like the Perry Bros made some German heads (though with gasmasks).

Phryxis wrote:Take Stalin and Mao, both of whom killed far more poeple than Hitler ever did. The conspiracy theorist in me says that the horrible acts of these Communist leaders are downplayed due to the political proximity of Communism to Socialism (which we're told is wonderful and benign). By comparison, Fascism is generally viewed as a corruption of the "right" side of the political spectrum, and thus a useful rhetorical ploy to attack conservative ideologies (ignoring the fact that the Nazis called themselves socialists).

WHAT?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:But he's not asking if using grey is a problem. I have a grey army. I have a gray army with WWII German helmets and a Nazi armored car in it. But I'm in no way trying to recreate the 3rd reich on the table top, any more than using Soviet armored cars means I'm a commie.

So....are we disagreeing about something? I seriously can't tell.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Well you can't have one without using their iconography and I must wonder why of all the historical paint schemes on Earth, why of all the paint schemes possible in the imagination ANYONE would choose Nazi German, especially if they say they don't admire the 3rd Reich. Then why emulate it?

Okay. I think I'm with you on this, at least in terms of historically influenced sci-fantasy armies. As I stated previously, I agree that it would be pretty wack to paint a 40k army in a historically accurate Nazi color scheme, complete with iconography (to the extent that Nazis with lasguns and flak armor can be historically accurate, that is). But do you think that someone painting and playing with a German army in a historical game like Flames of War is doing so because of a wish to emulate or admire the 3rd Reich?

Platuan4th wrote:

Mecharius wrote:Hitler stole the swastika from the romans, the same witht he "nazi" salute so do we hate the romans now too?????

Wow, are you ever misinformed.

The Nazis took the Swastika from the Hindu and Buddhists. It's an Asiatic symbol dating back to the Neolithic period and had NOTHING to do with Rome.



As well, the actual Roman military salute was a single right handed fist clenched over the left breast. It's actually unknown(and highly unlikely) whether the "Roman Salute" was actually used by the Romans at all(there is no evidence to support the claim that they used it) and may just be an artistic license taken by French artists in the 18th Century, as this is the first time in history there is any record of this gesture existing at all.

Next time, know a little history before stating these things.

i don't want to sound erm... like i am being picky but the Nazis didn't take it form hindus, it was used on Geometric patterns on pottery which shows up all over the place, in cloth by native americans, Hellenistic greeks etc
IN all likely hood it was taken from Germanic adn gothic pottery cause of its arian association

try reading this
http://www.ireference.ca/search/swastika/

you might want to educate yourself before you accuse peopel about not knowing history

"Take Stalin and Mao, both of whom killed far more poeple than Hitler ever did. "

so, one wrong is okay since it's not as wrong or popular as the other? WTF? all 3 are wrong, bad, evil...you name it. and don't try to drag the current U.S. political debate into this already raging debate. we have plenty of fuel without bringing left/right into it.

i'll say this one last thing, then i'm done with this insane arguement. i think we play wargames set in the future to escape the horrors and BS of reality. i don't get a Nazi feel from the IG. if anything i get a Roman empire vibe from the IG. granted that's my vibe, not saying that's how everyone sees it. just me. by doing an IG army that uses the Nazi theme glorifies it. it doesn't open peoples eyes to the true horror of what they really meant.

if we are going to look at the "cool and spiffy" colors and uniforms, then lets look at what they did while wearing them, too.

look i am sorry but preatorian guard should fall into the same catogory then.

they are based on colonial british troops who did thigns very similar to the nazi a mere 50+ years before. you can't just pick and choose what you exclude.

if theperson has nazi style uniforms thats ok imo, its hwne they start doing the whoel ss and relaly spammign the nazi icongrophy that you get rela issues and i totally agree with that. simky having troops painted in simailar colours to say SS storm troopers or similar.... can't be classified

I have no problem if he where to paint red arm bands with aquillas in them;showing there devtion to the emperor and blah blah and such. thats just me if you can paint it and make it look amazing more power to ya!

I'm sure if you did the finnish cross on some stuff people would freak out to.

But in the end paint what you want how you want just use common sense.

Nothing GW has made is overly Nazi looking at all DKOK is a combo of french and german in ww1 Now fluff wise is a different and would take pages up.

But where just talking about painting IMO it's fine I did my Drop Guard in Fallschirmjäger uniforms.

What we need to do here is also to think also not all German Army or Fallschirmjäger or Marine, Units where Nazi's it was really the high command and SS thats it really.

Platuan4th wrote:

Jaric wrote:And I didnt mean to derail it with the Nazis v Japanese...its just weird how Nazis are just inhuman monsters to some people, and portraying ww2 Japanese in a poor light is offensive because some countries locked up their citizens in wartime.

It's all about public perception. We still hear about the Nazis and have it held up as the ultimate evil today, but other than Pearl Harbor and the dropping of the bombs, the average person doesn't hear/talk about or perhaps know much about the Pacific Theater. Even looking at history shows/channels on TV, it's almost a 4:1 ratio(or more) of shows about Nazi German in relation to anything else WW2 related.

Hell, I know people who don't believe me when I tell them about how xenophobic/racist Japanese can be at times because their idea of Japan and Japanese society is Anime/Vidja games/Otaku.

No crap... The Japanese still to this day have xenophobic leanings and for those of you who pay attention it's not that subtle. We got so used to loving the Japanese that now the only people who like Germans(Nazi or otherwise) are either sexual deviants or labeled as Nazi sympathizers. What about those of us who just have pride in our society, and would prefer to know about all its history. I personally am doing a Nazi themed Inquisitorial Guard army and most people who I've tole the idea to liked it. I'm using the red flag, just instead of a cross or swastika I am simply using the Imperial Fist Gauntlet symbol.

Sgt.Roadkill wrote:i don't want to sound erm... like i am being picky but the Nazis didn't take it form hindus, it was used on Geometric patterns on pottery which shows up all over the place, in cloth by native americans, Hellenistic greeks etc
IN all likely hood it was taken from Germanic adn gothic pottery cause of its arian association

try reading this
http://www.ireference.ca/search/swastika/

you might want to educate yourself before you accuse peopel about not knowing history

I do know about the European history of the Swastika, thanks. I chose to use the Asian history based on the fact that the word itself is based upon the Sanskrit word स्वस्तिक(translated as svástika) and that Himmler and several other important Nazi figures believed that the Aryan culture and its remnants might be found in Tibet and India.

Sorry that I didn't explain my reasoning to everyone.

I am entirly against the idea. why would anyone think naziss and genocide is cool?

Phryxis wrote:

Take Stalin and Mao, both of whom killed far more poeple than Hitler ever did. The conspiracy theorist in me says that the horrible acts of these Communist leaders are downplayed due to the political proximity of Communism to Socialism (which we're told is wonderful and benign). By comparison, Fascism is generally viewed as a corruption of the "right" side of the political spectrum, and thus a useful rhetorical ploy to attack conservative ideologies (ignoring the fact that the Nazis called themselves socialists).

Well said.

Deadly chicken no one thinks genocide is cool. This is about a military colour scheme recreated on miniatures. Im not doing this to support Nazis, and I am rather insulted that you are implying I am.

i was not implying you were however I dont even like the idea of a swastika symbol! what would it make people think? I was not considering you supported Nazis but other people might if they see a swastica on your army banner.

p.s sorry for insulting you