3rd Reich army scheme for guard...wrong?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/227515.page

The answer to your question lies here.

My only question is why people aren't badgering for picks. Also link is slightly different, I questioned about Witch Hunter Nazis.

If you want emblems similar to the Nazi Icons, look at the Helgasht from Killzone.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Jaric wrote:So with the advent of the new Guard book, I am going to start a guard army. I was planning on painting the army with the colours of Germany circa ww2. Purlely an historically accurate colour scheme, no swastiks or Hellhounds fueled by Jews etc. I was then told that this could offend people which I think is slowed considering:

1. The Imperium is way worse than anything the Nazis did

2. I could paint an army with the Imperial Japanese colours and people wouldnt have a problem even though Japan was as bad or worse on the Chinese in ww2 and their POW's etc.

What do you think? Am I wrong? I could go to any minitaure store and buy every veh and model Germany had in the war, so is this any different?

Yes it's wrong because admiring and seeking to emulate the Nazis is wrong on many, many levels.

Even if you 'only' admire their military you cannot divorce the military from its deeds and the government that created it.

And...

THE IMPERIUM IS NOT WORSE THAN NAZI GERMANY BECAUSE THE IMPERIUM IS FICTIONAL!

**Mattlov**

dementedwombat wrote:
Mattlov wrote:Do it. Use all the symbols, and then go a step further.

Organize your forces to a very precise level like a German unit, with the exact number of troops per unit and tank support of the real unit. Execute blitzkrieg style warfare on opponents.

Go all the way. Don't worry about offending people. Educate them. On the realities of the Reich Army, and don't focus on the leadership and extraneous stuff. Just focus on a single combat unit.

The sad part, I'm not sure if you're kidding.

I'm not kidding. I'm saying don't focus on the "Evil Nazi" aspect and focus on the highly trained military force aspect.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yes it's wrong because admiring and seeking to emulate the Nazis is wrong on many, many levels.

Even if you 'only' admire their military you cannot divorce the military from its deeds and the government that created it.

And...

THE IMPERIUM IS NOT WORSE THAN NAZI GERMANY BECAUSE THE IMPERIUM IS FICTIONAL!

This coming from a man with Inquisitor Hussein and his "Jihad".

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/7714-Inquisitor%20Hussein%20and%20his%20Jihad.html?m=2

**Kid_Kyoto**

BrotherStynier wrote:

This coming from a man with Inquisitor Hussein and his "Jihad".

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/7714-Inquisitor%20Hussein%20and%20his%20Jihad.html?m=2

Yep.

Why?

Hussein is one of the most common names on Earth, up there with Mohammed and 李

I forget who but remember hearing there's a prominent American with the middle name Hussein

I figured it's time it was reclaimed and people stopped thinking of Moslem=Terrorist=Evil.

Now if someone starts researching Talliban uniforms and making up rules for crashing Thunderhawks into buildings...

Well that's something different.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yep.

Why?

Hussein is one of the most common names on Earth, up there with Mohammed and 李

I forget who but remember hearing there's a prominent American with the middle name Hussein

I figured it's time it was reclaimed and people stopped thinking of Moslem=Terrorist=Evil.

Now if someone starts researching Talliban uniforms and making up rules for crashing Thunderhawks into buildings...

Well that's something different.

I fail to see how reclaiming Jihad, and Hussein is any different from reclaiming the Wehrmacht as a bad thing, he's not saying he's gonna make rules for hunting Jews, Gays, Gypsies and Slavs. He's using the uniforms and some of the icons which the German Army itself still uses.

Now if you'll allow me I have to point out a flaw in you logic, Taliban have no specific uniform so researching it would be pointless, they are a guerrilla force and wear what ever.

Edit: [removed highly politicized trolling] Please stop helping to drive this thread off-topic. -- yakface

**ph34r**

Color scheme? Go for it. There is no reason not to use a color scheme, it's not particularly unique.
Red arm bands/swastikas/ss markings: Why would you do this? Even if you changed all the swastikas on arm bands to imperial eagles, it is clear what you mean, because there is no background precedence of people running around with red arm bands as standard uniform in Warhammer 40k. SS markings are out of place completely too.

**yakface**

Here is the thread you want to read if you really want to drown yourself in this topic:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209982.page

And here's my take on the issue (it was the last post in that thread before I locked it):

Obviously the use of potentially offensive real-world images in a science fiction miniature game is a tricky situation, as evidenced by the discussion on this forum. The reactions from people range from: "This is ridiculous it is a miniature game, it doesn't matter what you put on your models" to "The use of such themes and images is clearly a statement being pushed by the creator."

This sort of outrage and counter-outrage at the outrage is eeirly reminiscent of the last time a really well-painted model incorporated real-world iconography. . .Victor Hardy's Greater Daemon model that had an image of a daemonic Madonna/baby Jesus painted onto it.

What both these cases illustrate is that, like life, whenever you display something as your own, be it a t-shirt, bumper sticker, or miniature, this is a form of communication that other people will see, interpret and come to their own conclusions about you and why you have chosen to put forth whatever message they believe you are sending. The problem with a miniature (or any other work of art), is that the meaning behind the creator's work isn't always clear, at least not as clear as a T-shirt saying: "White Power!", which obviously has a pretty succinct message.

So without personally knowing the creator, or the ultimate goal or meaning of his work people are left to judge what has been put forth at face value and decide for themselves if it is a harmless incorporation of historical themes or rather it is a cleverly designed piece of propaganda.

I'm sure that if we were able to meet the creator in person, 95% of us would be able to judge in fairly short order what type of person he was and that judgement would quickly change our perception of his work. But the problem with the internet, or if we were to view pictures of the army in another format, is that we don't get to physically meet the person who created the army and without that basic connection many of us will forever be in doubt of their motives, no matter what they write about their intentions.

All of which begs the question: Even if the creator has absolutely no ill-will in mind with his work, why would he go to such (obviously) great lengths to create something that will be found in poor taste by a large percentage of the population? Gaming is a social hobby and for the most part the goal is for you and your opponent to have a good time playing against each other. So why would someone wish to create an army that they would essentially have to explain themselves everytime they play against a new player?

Which opens up a whole different slew of questions: Did the creator really think that no one would be offended by his work? If so, how could he possibly be so naive? If not, why would he want subject himself to the hassle of dealing with repeated negative allegations stemming from his work? Is he desperate for attention or does he really have an agenda he's trying to push?

We can go around in circles trying to guess the answers to these questions but the only person who knows for sure is the creator, and he's not participating in the discussion, so at some point it just becomes a case of everyone else spinning their wheels trying to guess the answer when there cannot be one found.

But ultimately, these are legitimate questions that need to be asked and discussed by the gaming community as it will be people like us that play games against armies like this and everyone needs to be fully aware of how other people will react to different images. I think this army, and this discussion, have done a very good job of showing the different sides of this difficult subject.

Anytime you incorporate real-world iconography into your army you have to be prepared for people to interpret those symbols and come to their own conclusions about what you have created. The more potent the real-world symbol, the more likely that others will draw negative conclusions about your motives. Finally, if you use potent real-world images on your models knowing that you will draw negative reactions from a good percentage of people you show it to, what does that say about yourself?

**Doctor Thunder**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
BrotherStynier wrote:

This coming from a man with Inquisitor Hussein and his "Jihad".

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/7714-Inquisitor%20Hussein%20and%20his%20Jihad.html?m=2

Yep.

Why?

Hussein is one of the most common names on Earth, up there with Mohammed and 李

I forget who but remember hearing there's a prominent American with the middle name Hussein

I figured it's time it was reclaimed and people stopped thinking of Moslem=Terrorist=Evil.

Now if someone starts researching Talliban uniforms and making up rules for crashing Thunderhawks into buildings...

Well that's something different.

Sorry, Kyoto, not buying it. When you have a Jihad army you forfeit the right to criticize someone for having a nazi army and have people take you seriously. It would be like me bashing someone for making a female marine army.

**Crimson Devil**

Jaric, the exchange between Doc and Kyoto is a good example of what Yakface just wrote and what you're setting yourself up for.

If you use obvious German uniforms and symbols you're playing with people perceptions and stereotypes. Consider the use of the word Jihad. To most Americans it is a negative term. Full of evil and hate, like Nazi or Communist. To the Terrorists it means "struggle in the way of God". You compliment the bastards every time you use it to describe them. Regardless of how unfair it is, WW2 Germans = Nazi in the public's mind. Most will not know the difference or give you the chance to explain it.

**Lord Kaesar II**

i'll absolutely say: go as far as you want. besides the demonized swastikas, you've got the potential for a prety brutal army. and no, i'm not hating on jews or being extremist, just saying that i'd find it fun to fight near 'german army during WWII', naturally minus the swastika and armband. but with the SS part, i'd say, if you want to, go for it. but, expect some flak for that. you can't fly a plane in a warzone without it

**Sidstyler**

I figured it's time it was reclaimed and people stopped thinking of Moslem=Terrorist=Evil.

...and you're going to do that with a "jihad" lead by a guy named Hussein?

Muslims aren't evil terrorists, it's like claiming all Christians are like Fred Phelps. You can't judge an entire group of people based on a handful of extremists who pervert and misrepresent their respective religions (and in an effort to practice what I preach I've actually fallen in love with a Muslim girl

). But honestly I'm not sure I understand how exactly your army is going to be breaking any stereotypes, it reminds me of the plethora of Nazi-themed armies that have been the topic of discussion lately.

**cadbren**

Platuan4th wrote:
Mecharius wrote:Hitler stole the swastika from the romans, the same witht he "nazi" salute so do we hate the romans now too?????

Wow, are you ever misinformed.

The Nazis took the Swastika from the Hindu and Buddhists. It's an Asiatic symbol dating back to the Neolithic period and had NOTHING to do with Rome.

As well, the actual Roman military salute was a single right handed fist clenched over the left breast. It's actually unknown(and highly unlikely) whether the "Roman Salute" was actually used by the Romans at all(there is no evidence to support the claim that they used it) and may just be an artistic license taken by French artists in the 18th Century, as this is the first time in history there is any record of this gesture existing at all.

Next time, know a little history before stating these things.

That salute is referenced as the Roman salute though. It may well be an 18th century fiction but that's what it's called. As for the swastika, or hakenkruetz (hooked cross), it is first recorded in Europe carved into mammoth bones. These are from the Ukraine and date back to around 10,000 BC, long before it appeared in India.
The swastika appears in the art of the ancient celts, romans and greeks.
The nazis adopted the swastika because many of their members came from the Thule society, a nationalist quasi-pagan group and the swastika is the symbol of the german god Woden (the god that Wedensday is named in honour of). You'll note that the nazis also liked using ancient runes as symbols.
Because it was such a common symbol at one time it appears as decoration in many older buildings including some synagogues as well of course in churches. The swastika, which is ultimately used as a good luck charm was coming back into fashion until 30s propaganda associated it solely with the nazis and so people outside of Germany stopped using it.
Today a number of pagan groups use it but with some debate because of it's nazi associations.

A third reich themed IG army wouldn't need it anyway, but a black aquila in a white circle on a red background with the appropriate amount of gold edging would look pretty good.
Your basic troops could be painted as late war german infantry (no jackboots), collar tabs are just those double line doohickies, they look like this 'II' but on their side with an eagle on their right breast.
Stormtroopers would be SS of course with cammo uniforms and an eagle on their left uper arm.
Now if you have some ogryn, I've always thought they would make good skinheads, just give them heaps of tattoos.
Commisars are the only ones I can think of that would have red arm bands on their left arms.

Also, I saw on the net someone had a german WWII themed army and they had converted a bunch of 1/35th ? scale german models into guard ones; don't remember what the troops looked like though.

It's good to see armies based on actual history, they tend to be better looking than made up ones and in a small way they honour the sacrifices of all the real soldiers who have died throughout history.

**cadbren**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Even if you 'only' admire their military you cannot divorce the military from its deeds and the government that created it.

Yes you can. The nazi look was impressive. It is the epitome of fascist control, discipline and devotion. It is why it is constantly referenced in films such as Star Wars and Starship Troopers, why it inspires some of the art in 40K and why books on the SS are still popular; it's not their politics that people are interested in, it's the fact that they were one of the best fighting machines ever created and having companies like Hugo Boss designing your uniforms just makes things that much more impressive.

I can admire the mongol armies and their efficiency despite the nine million people they are reputed to have killed (most of them unarmed), I can do the same for the ancient Romans who also butchered entire peoples. If you are so offended by incocents being killed by groups such as the nazis then why are you playing a game which is about slaughtering the opposition (there's no diplomacy in the 40K universe). Why too do you have a japanese name and avatar if you are from china when the japanese butchered the chinese during WWII?

**Dave47**

cadbren wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Even if you 'only' admire their military you cannot divorce the military from its deeds and the government that created it.

Yes you can. The nazi look was impressive. It is the epitome of fascist control, discipline and devotion. It is why it is constantly referenced in films such as Star Wars and Starship Troopers, why it inspires some of the art in 40K and why books on the SS are still popular; it's not their politics that people are interested in, it's the fact that they were one of the best fighting machines ever created and having companies like Hugo Boss designing your uniforms just makes things that much more impressive.

I can admire the mongol armies and their efficiency despite the nine million people they are reputed to have killed (most of them unarmed), I can do the same for the ancient Romans who also butchered entire peoples. If you are so offended by incocents being killed by groups such as the nazis then why are you playing a game which is about slaughtering the opposition (there's no diplomacy in the 40K universe). Why too do you have a japanese name and avatar if you are from china when the japanese butchered the chinese during WWII?

Keep in mind that "films such as Stat Wars and Starship Troopers" didn't go to great lengths to capture every detail of the Gestapo Uniforms. It's important to remember that the OP's question wasn't: "Hey, the paint scheme I like strongly resembles one the Nazis used, is that going to cause me problems?" It was" Hey guys, how much Nazi iconography can I squeeze into my IG army without getting into trouble?"

This isn't a case where someone's artistic choices piss off hypersensitve people. His stated goal is making a Nazi army. That's perfectly appropriate in Flames of War. But why should we go out of our way to drag that baggage into the 41st millenium?

I think making fun of Kid Kyoto is a red herring at best, and activley disingenuous at worst." Reclaiming "Husein" or "being Japanese" is very different from reclaiming "Nazi." Even if you believe that there are "good aspects" of a Nazi army, the OP isn't trying to capture those aspects. He's asking if he can model his officers as Gestapo agents.

There's no way to pretend that this is in good taste. And let's not compare this to the Mongols or Romans. No living human has relatives who were killed by those regimes. In the 4th millenium (or even the 22nd century) it may well be ok to model a Nazi army. Until then, let's try to observe some minimum standards of decorum and taste.

**namegoeshere**

You can either get along with people, or you can get angry with them. If someone hasn't physically attacked, purposefully maliciously attacked you verbally, or is affecting your work or finance - then it's pretty much garunteed that it's just you being weird not someone else attacking you.

So live and let live. It is a grimdark universe where there is nothing but war, after all

**Sidstyler**

I'm still not sure how "reclaiming Hussein" makes sense, but maybe that's just because I'm an idiot.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Dave47 wrote:
This isn't a case where someone's artistic choices piss off hypersensitve people. His stated goal is making a Nazi army. That's perfectly appropriate in Flames of War. But why should we go out of our way to drag that baggage into the 41st millenium?

I think making fun of Kid Kyoto is a red herring at best, and activley disingenuous at worst " Reclaiming "Husein" or "being Japanese" is very different from reclaiming "Nazi." Even if you believe that there are "good aspects" of a Nazi army, the OP isn't trying to capture those aspects. He's asking if he can model his officers as Gestapo agents.

Until then, let's try to observe some minimum standards of decorum and taste.

What's wrong with dragging the real world inspiration for things in to the 41st millennium? Nothing, there isn't anything wrong with it in fact Games Workshop does it themselves as has been pointed out earlier in the thread with mention of the Valhallan Regiments obviously modeled off of the WWII and 1950's military of the USSR, or the modeling of the Steel Legion loosely off of the Wehrmacht. In an Empire spanning millions of stars you can't tell me you couldn't imagine one of these fictional places to be similar to the workings of 1932-1945 Germany.

If you think about it reclaiming Hussein and Jihad is the same thing as trying to reclaim Nazi. For the American people, Jihad at least, and possibly Hussein at least if used along with some variation of Saddam will be considered taboo something that should be avoided. Jihad will for a while be an evil thing like the Nazis unless people can learn to accept things and move past them. Yes Nazis were bad and did horrible things, but it is the past a thing to be looked back on and learned from not scorned. Playing ignorant and attacking people that look at the Nazis as something more than just evil, but as something that was one of the military power houses of its time who helped pave the way for modern times in both military and civil applications. Learn from them, their mistakes and things that should have never been done.

There is nothing wrong with someone modeling things (like Gestapo Agents) off of groups from the past, look at the Inquisition its modeled off of the Spanish Inquisition and the Gestapo, they all do the same thing. Sure he's not making an Inquisitor a Gestapo Agent but the rule still applies.

How can you claim that there is no way to pretend that the idea is in good taste, yet mention Flames of War? Do you find that not to be in good taste or just pretend it doesn't happen most of the time? What about hobbyists that build Taymia or Dragon WWII models do you find that in bad taste as well?

**WaaaaghLord**

but, people play nazi armies in games like Flames of War and other WW2 games

surely its just the same concept?

**thesuperiorninja**

Dave47 wrote:
cadbren wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Even if you 'only' admire their military you cannot divorce the military from its deeds and the government that created it.

Yes you can. The nazi look was impressive. It is the epitome of fascist control, discipline and devotion. It is why it is constantly referenced in films such as Star Wars and Starship Troopers, why it inspires some of the art in 40K and why books on the SS are still popular; it's not their politics that people are interested in, it's the fact that they were one of the best fighting machines ever created and having companies like Hugo Boss designing your uniforms just makes things that much more impressive.

I can admire the mongol armies and their efficiency despite the nine million people they are reputed to have killed (most of them unarmed), I can do the same for the ancient Romans who also butchered entire peoples. If you are so offended by incocents being killed by groups such as the nazis then why are you playing a game which is about slaughtering the opposition (there's no diplomacy in the 40K universe). Why too do you have a japanese name and avatar if you are from china when the japanese butchered the chinese during WWII?

Keep in mind that "films such as Stat Wars and Starship Troopers" didn't go to great lengths to capture every detail of the Gestapo Uniforms. It's important to remember that the OP's question wasn't: "Hey, the paint scheme I like strongly resembles one the Nazis used, is that going to cause me problems?" It was" Hey guys, how much Nazi iconography can I squeeze into my IG army without getting into trouble?"

This isn't a case where someone's artistic choices piss off hypersensitve people. His stated goal is making a Nazi army. That's perfectly appropriate in Flames of War. But why should we go out of our way to drag that baggage into the 41st millenium?

I think making fun of Kid Kyoto is a red herring at best, and activley disingenuous at worst." Reclaiming "Husein" or "being Japanese" is very different from reclaiming "Nazi." Even if you believe that there are "good aspects" of a Nazi army, the OP isn't trying to capture those aspects. He's asking if he can model his officers as Gestapo agents.

There's no way to pretend that this is in good taste. And let's not compare this to the Mongols or Romans. No living human has relatives who were killed by those regimes. In the 4th millenium (or even the 22nd century) it may well be ok to model a Nazi army. Until then, let's try to observe some minimum standards of decorum and taste.

How can you even say that his intention is to make a Nazi army out of ill will? Which is what you seem to be saying. Do you know this person? Is he a well known Neo-Nazi who also plays 40k? I think instead of making accusations toward someone lets answer his question. I say do it, but as stated, expect some flak. Besides, I'd bet anything he doesn't even check this thread anymore.

**Kid_Kyoto**

So... just to be totally clear, if I rename Inquisitor Hussein then no one will ever do a Nazi IG army again?

DEAL!

**Sidstyler**

If only we could be that lucky.

**Hordini**

I don't think there's anything wrong with using some historically themed colors, and most people probably wouldn't recognize or automatically associate IG painted in a pseudo-Field Gray or with a bit of Splinter-pattern camo as "Nazi IG" anyway. The actual color of Field Gray varied so much throughout the war that it's almost pointless to discuss it much anyway.

When you start to add things like armbands, symbols and runes (even if you change the runes) you're really starting to push the envelope in a direction that you probably don't want to go. Besides the fact that it can be pretty distasteful, adding things like armbands tends to be doubly ridiculous because they are often added because people want what they think is a "historically accurate" army, even though troops didn't wear things like arm bands in combat.

I'd also be careful with replacing the swastika with the iron cross. Now, claiming that the iron cross is a Nazi symbol is incorrect, the modern Bundeswehr still uses it on their vehicles, for goodness sake. However, doing something like painting a blood flag and replacing the swastika with an iron cross is probably going to be frowned upon, because there is a strong implication there - it can be a way of invoking a swastika without actually painting one.

Basically, my policy is, if you are actually interested in the history, you should play a historical game. Historically-themed sci-fantasy armies rarely end up being executed as well as their creators imagined, and they usually just end up pretty lame and silly looking in general.

I wasn't going to re-post this, but I think my post from the thread Yakface linked to sums up my feelings a bit more completely.

As someone who plays historical wargames and sci-fi/fantasy wargames, who has studied a bit of the subjects of Germany and WWII, and who has family and friends who served and fought on both sides during the war, I have developed some pretty specific, and pretty strong feelings about this matter.

Let me also say up front that I have a German army for Flames of War, and am also working on a Soviet army.

Now, as to the original topic, I find the more that I see sci-fi and fantasy armies that are "based" on WWII Germany, the Soviet Union, or other military forces associated with extremist governments, the more I find it distasteful, and depending on the execution, a bit sickening.

As to the army that was recently "run out on a rail" in the modeling forum, I will say this: It was beautifully painted, and aside from some of the flags, didn't bother me that much. I thought the aerial recognition flag that just replaced the swastika with an iron cross was unnecessary, but the majority of the army was extremely well done and pulled from enough other non-Nazi sources that it didn't bother me.

The Kriegmarines on the other hand are nowhere near as well done (no offense to the Kriegmarine painter, but the other army was painted to a truly exceptional standard), and also in much poorer taste, in my opinion.

This may seem hypocritical to some that I find sci-fi or fantasy armies based on WWII Germany to be distasteful at best, but am okay with actual German armies in a WWII game, but please allow me to explain myself.

I think if you're modeling a German unit in a historical context, using historically accurate color schemes and equipment, and are doing it respectfully (i.e. in a way that is not glorifying units with histories of war crimes and that sort of thing) that there is no problem. I actually see this as a good thing because it can be used as a teaching tool, is promoting historical research and better understanding of the topic, and helps to ensure that the history is remembered.

I also think there is a limit to what should be modeled in good taste though. While I take no issue with gamers modeling German military units, I would find it disgusting if someone wanted to model a bunch of camp guards or an Einsatzgrupp. I also find it sickening when people model Waffen-SS units because they think they were "cool" but don't actually have any interest in learning about the history. I also have found it kind of sick when I've heard people talk about fielding Volkssturm militia or Hitlerjugend child soldiers, but those things are kind of sore subjects for me.

But my point is, in a historical context I see no problem in modeling and playing a WWII German army.

As said, I think doing a 40k army with WWII iconography is kind of wack. This is from a combination of reasons. The first (which is a generalization, I admit) is that most of these armies are poorly researched, and are modeled like people think the Germans looked, but for the most part are nowhere close to accurate about anything, and when you actually talk to the person it's often apparent that their knowledge of the subject is woefully limited. It always seems like they did it because they just think it's "cool" or because "the Germans were l33t" but don't actually know anything about the subject - which again, is something I take issue with even in historical games. They are taking a serious subject and turning it more or less into a crude science fiction inside joke ("My Space Marines are actually German - LOL!") which I find annoying because it dilutes the subject matter and cheapens the whole thing.

I also think that separating the subject from its historical context in some ways is a lot more glorifying (even unintentionally) than model a historical unit. At least with historicals, you are modeling something that happened. When someone does Nazi's in Space, I feel like they are implying (intentionally or not) that they need Nazis in Space because there aren't enough Nazis in the real world.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to model and play a German army from WWII, then model and play an actual German army from WWII, and try to develop a little understanding of what you are doing. Learn something from it.

But don't make a Nazis in Space army because you think Waffen-SS camouflage, arm bands, and blood flags look good on Imperial Guard miniatures. Please.

**Mattlov**

WaaaaghLord wrote:but, people play nazi armies in games like Flames of War and other WW2 games

surely its just the same concept?

That's a really good point. People don't have a problem with Germans in FoW, can they really justify being angry or offended if the iconography is used in a different game?

**Hordini**

Mattlov wrote:
WaaaaghLord wrote:but, people play nazi armies in games like Flames of War and other WW2 games

surely its just the same concept?

That's a really good point. People don't have a problem with Germans in FoW, can they really justify being angry or offended if the iconography is used in a different game?

Please see my previous post.

**yakface**

Or to put it a little differently, when you are recreating something from the past, there is historical precedence and reference for why things look the way they look.

When you take iconography from the past and transpose onto something that doesn't have that reference, then you are (unfortunately) making a statement of intent. While you may have the most simple of intentions for doing this, people who see your work DON'T KNOW THIS and therefore will tend to judge the work at face value, which ultimately leads to issues.

It is the difference between taking a dodge charger and painting it up exactly as it looked in the dukes of hazard and taking some random car (a honda civic, for example) and just painting a confederate flag on the roof.

The former has some sort of historical reference while the latter does not. While you may have just painted a confederate flag on the roof of your honda civic because you like 'dukes of hazard' people seeing your car aren't going to automatically know that and many will therefore assume you are potentially a racist.

**kennyalhavg**

do it, ive seen it done before... but with swatztikas

**Captain_Cow**

I say go for it, they may have done a lot of terrible things but one has to admit that they have awsome uniforms.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Hordini wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with using some historically themed colors, and most people probably wouldn't recognize or automatically associate IG painted in a pseudo-Field Gray or with a bit of Splinter-pattern camo as "Nazi IG" anyway. The actual color of Field Gray varied so much throughout the war that it's almost pointless to discuss it much anyway.

But aren't we skirting the issue. It seems we're back to saying 'here's how to show your admiration for Nazi Germany without getting caught'.

**Captain_Cow**

Just do it WITHOUT the nazi iconography(?), stick to the color scheme that the WWII German troops used. If still that bothers them so much then have them complain to Forge World for this line of IG troops:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/DEATH_KORPS_OF_KRIEG.html