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IF you want to do a "nazi" themed guard army do a late war version of tired old men and brainwashed adolescents. But if i were you id take inspiration from the rich history and make your own interpretation.

Its not worth spending $$$ to piss of conservatives

It just goes to show you can never be to careful!

"I don't think the swastika is a great idea, but that's mainly because I don't like how it looks. If the OP wants to smash swastikas all over his guard, he should! It doesn't mean he's a Nazi. If I was to paint Red Stars all over my guard, it wouldn't mean I was a Soviet, surely?"

That should pretty much be the end of the debate if it was a rational world Disjointed. People tend to judge first, and think later.

No am I not a Nazis Apologist. and I am not painting this army as a stand against reverse discrimination. I think the army will look cool. Isint that why we all paint armies?

Yeah I like the idea of the main force being Wermacht, but I will have a least a unit or 2 of Waffen SS. You cant just pick and choose what you think were the good germans, and what were the bad that fought in ww2. Thats unfair and historically inaccurate.

I will totally start a modeling blog here on how it goes when I start. I assume not at least till May (new guard book duh). Plus my daughter is due end of May so that may you know slow the painting lol.

I dont think the people I play with will have any problem whatsoever, I was thinking about the tournies.

I live in Ottawa, and the next Gaming Summit ill bring this army. I am trying to register in their forum to repost my OP and see what the community says.

And I think the fact I have a shaved head and am white will lead people to think im a skinhead is total bs. Im well dressed, have a goatee, glasses, and no tattoos. I dont really fit the stereotype mold. Although people are stupid and will just assume anyways. Sigh.

Maybe ill make covert Nazis by building a Krieg army. Or Steel Legion lol.

Well, the Legion have always looked pretty cool!
What ever you end up doing, I'd like to see the results!

Plus, why does having a shaved head make you a White Supremacist? One of my really good mates (and drum teacher) used to shave his head, and still kind of does (mohecain) I just think it looks damn cool!
People who just assume like this are complete morons for judging before knowing!

When people mean shin head they also mean the build and how they hold themselves not just a shaven head

Why even bring it up, if you're not planning on using readily-identifiable Nazi icons & symbols?

Just paint the commissars black, the troopers in Feldgrau or whatever unit colors you're planning on using, and be done with it. No one would ever know or take offense. What's the point in pointing out your inspiration and asking about it, really?

Honestly, to me this seems more like an attempt to show how edgy and different your approach to minis is, rather than a serious question. Apologies if that's wrong, but that's how it's coming across, OP.

And this little gem: "The Imperium is way worse than anything the Nazis did" is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen in a forum. And that's saying something. One of these groups was real, and responsible for the deaths of untold numbers of people. The other is fictitious, and therefore it doesn't matter what they're portrayed as having done. Because they don't exist.

That's like saying "You know what, that Jeffrey Dahmer's not such a bad guy, because hey, you know, at least he didn't kill as many people as died when the Death Star blew up."

I know that's an exaggeration, but you get my point. Just paint the damn minis however you want, but if you're not planning on using swastikas and SS lightning bolts, then why even bring it up? You know it's just gonna stir people up, and why intentionally do that?

As a side note, I did know a guy a bunch of years ago who used german WW2 themes in an old 2nd edition Mordian Iron Guard army. He basically never got another game in at our LGS. Not 40K, not fantasy battle, not MTG, not anything. Not a lot of people want to play someone who treats serious and tragic historical events like a joke. He even had a hard time coming into the shop from then on, because quite a few customers were jewish, and they in particular didn't think it was funny or pithy or cool.

The whole concept is just tasteless and insulting to people who have a real-life connection to those events. Like it seems harmless to you, or whatever, but these are real events that have left a real mark on many people's lives. And its one thing to play a WW2 minis games, where the real events are the focus and setting, but to do that in a clearly fantastical game like 40K? It comes across like you think the imagery you're using is cool, and that you consider it worthy of emulation. Even if you don't, you can't guarantee that people won't see it that way, so why do it?

Like making a Nurgle army that's all diseased-looking native americans hugging US cavalry blankets, or a 9/11-themed army that's all Stormboyz wearing turbans, Blood Axes wearing dynamite vests, and ork shoe-bombers, a Nazi-themed IG army would make me, for one, refuse to play that person and possibly ask them to step outside the game store and discuss it.

LuciusAR wrote:I think people need to differentiate between Nazi (member of the ruling political party in WW2) and Whermacht (member of the German armed forces). I agree that specifically doing armies based upon the Gestapo, concentration camp service or death squads is pushing boundaries of good taste. The Waffen SS is a bit of a grey area in so much that they were field units and weren't directly involved in Nazi Atrocities. But armies based on the Heer (Army) I've no issue with at all.

They're all Nazis to the business end of an M1 Garand. Dead Nazis.

Why even bring it up, if you're not planning on using readily-identifiable Nazi icons & symbols?

Just paint the commissars black, the troopers in Feldgrau or whatever unit colors you're planning on using, and be done with it. No one would ever know or take offense. What's the point in pointing out your inspiration and asking about it, really?

Honestly, to me this seems more like an attempt to show how edgy and different your approach to minis is, rather than a serious question. Apologies if that's wrong, but that's how it's coming across, OP.

And this little gem: "The Imperium is way worse than anything the Nazis did" is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen in a forum. And that's saying something. One of these groups was real, and responsible for the deaths of untold numbers of people. The other is fictitious, and therefore it doesn't matter what they're portrayed as having done. Because they don't exist.

That's like saying "You know what, that Jeffrey Dahmer's not such a bad guy, because hey, you know, at least he didn't kill as many people as died when the Death Star blew up."

I know that's an exaggeration, but you get my point. Just paint the damn minis however you want, but if you're not planning on using swastikas and SS lightning bolts, then why even bring it up? You know it's just gonna stir people up, and why intentionally do that?

As a side note, I did know a guy a bunch of years ago who used german WW2 themes in an old 2nd edition Mordian Iron Guard army. He basically never got another game in at our LGS. Not 40K, not fantasy battle, not MTG, not anything. Not a lot of people want to play someone who treats serious and tragic historical events like a joke. He even had a hard time coming into the shop from then on, because quite a few customers were jewish, and they in particular didn't think it was funny or pithy or cool.

The whole concept is just tasteless and insulting to people who have a real-life connection to those events. Like it seems harmless to you, or whatever, but these are real events that have left a real mark on many people's lives. And its one thing to play a WW2 minis games, where the real events are the focus and setting, but to do that in a clearly fantastical game like 40K? It comes across like you think the imagery you're using is cool, and that you consider it worthy of emulation. Even if you don't, you can't guarantee that people won't see it that way, so why do it?

Like making a Nurgle army that's all diseased-looking native americans hugging US cavalry blankets, or a 9/11-themed army that's all Stormboyz wearing turbans, Blood Axes wearing dynamite vests, and ork shoe-bombers, a Nazi-themed IG army would make me, for one, refuse to play that person and possibly ask them to step outside the game store and discuss it.

What this guy said.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Go ahead, try and tell a black guy that he's a racist and see what happens. It's like you're pissing on a sacred relic: The 'freedom' they have that no one else has. It's completely backwards.

I've done it, some look shocked, some agree whole heartedly that they ARE racist, but are ok with it because they feel they have that right because of history.

Also, it's not some freedom only Blacks think they have, other minorities(such as Gypsies and Hispanics) believe they have that freedom, too(and anyone that argues against that is wrong and a racist to them). I've seen real-life Minority-Offs, it's ridiculous.

Reverse Racism is STILL racism.

a Nazi-themed IG army would make me, for one, refuse to play that person and possibly ask them to step outside the game store and discuss it.

So on first impression you would potentially assault someone wow internet tough guys

No. But I would just stand there, point at them and laugh.

And laugh

And laugh

Then I would have them thrown out.

Ulf and by Frazzled you are both being PC up to the point of being fascist. You are saying that since someone might interpret what I am doing as insulting, dont do it. Your like do it and hide it, or dont do it. At the very least its hypocritical.

And this I find laughable, "The whole concept is just tasteless and insulting to people who have a real-life connection to those events." So if I model a Guard army on an army that committed countless atrocities, murders, etc, and no one is alive who has a connection, its okay?

Im Canadian. I have no connection to your US atrocities on the Natives. Am I allowed to make a Nurgle army that's all diseased-looking native americans hugging US cavalry blankets without getting hassled? Which by the way is a cool idea and will remember it next time I make a fantasy army.

And your little story about not playing with that guy sounds very very prejudicial at least, and douche-like at worst. Did you even ask him why he did it? Was it historically accurate? There were Jewish people in the store so never mention the N word? Pretending something didnt happen is how these things happen in the first place. Those who forget history are bound to repeat it.

Well Ulf and Frazzled this must all be moot for you since your both American. Dont you prize Freedom of Speech as one of the most sacred of civil liberties?

No, not at all. I literally mean talk to them. About how it's borderline appropriate at best to bring something like that into a store where kids spend time, and where others go to have fun and spend time with friends. The same way I would ask someone who was wearing a T-shirt that said something like "Kill all Jews" or "Hitler was Right" to either change their shirt or get the F out.

Gaming, especially in a communal area like a gaming store that's open to the public, is a group activity that carries an implied responsibility to the other participants. We should all do our best to respect that. Which includes not doing something as deliberately offensive as going through all the trouble to paint tiny swastikas on our miniatures. Seriously.

Sorry if I phrased that "step outside" comment poorly. I'm not advocating violence at all. I used to manage a fairly large gaming store, and I had to ask people to step outside for a word on a pretty regular basis, so that's what I was thinking of when I was typing, kind of without thinking about the other connotation. My bad.

"a Nazi-themed IG army would make me, for one, refuse to play that person and possibly ask them to step outside the game store and discuss it."

This is one of the dumbest things Ive heard on this thread. Now whos being the fascist?

Or get them thrown out of the store Frazzled? Who made you the PC god? Hello you live in the US for gods sake.

Jaric wrote:Well Ulf and Frazzled this must all be moot for you since your both American. Dont you prize Freedom of Speech as one of the most sacred of civil liberties?

Frazz is from Texas, where the Second Amendment is more important than any other and is, in fact, mandatory, not optional. You get your choice of free gun as soon as you move into the state(first one's free!).

Also, gods forbid you step anywhere near Frazz's lawn...

Okay I just dont get this:

"No, not at all. I literally mean talk to them. About how it's borderline appropriate at best to bring something like that into a store where kids spend time, and where others go to have fun and spend time with friends. The same way I would ask someone who was wearing a T-shirt that said something like "Kill all Jews" or "Hitler was Right" to either change their shirt or get the F out."

So now your saying a Cadian army painted in ww2 german colours is the same as a shirt that says "Kill all Jews," and "Hitler was right?" What?!!!!!

And whats wrong with kids seeing a German army. No one is saying you praise it or support it. Kids should learn History, not be hidden from it. Explain it to them dont shield them.

I shudder to think what you do to people who play Flames of War in your store and there are kids around...

Jaric wrote:Ulf and by Frazzled you are both being PC up to the point of being fascist. You are saying that since someone might interpret what I am doing as insulting, dont do it. Your like do it and hide it, or dont do it. At the very least its hypocritical.

Its called good taste and common decency. I know Canadians in general have that. Are you the exception or just lack capacity to act and think like an adult?

Call me a fascist. Malf...sic em!

Platuan4th wrote:

Jaric wrote:Well Ulf and Frazzled this must all be moot for you since your both American. Dont you prize Freedom of Speech as one of the most sacred of civil liberties?

Frazz is from Texas, where the Second Amendment is more important than any other and is, in fact, mandatory, not optional. You get your choice of free gun as soon as you move into the state(first one's free!).

Also, gods forbid you step anywhere near Frazz's lawn...

That is indeed quite certain

No your saying curb my way of painting to fit under what you deem to be appropriate.

Common decency? Im not making Ovens or Death squads...

I believe this is the first time I´ve said either of these two things, but this feels about right...

Firstly: Can we please lock this already? The proper discussion is far gone. Also, I believe I haven´t seen any modeling and painting pictures.....

Secondly: In Before The Lock.

Obviously he was speaking about IRL, and not forums.

I, personally, wouldn't 'test the waters' with such an emotional topic - even if it means nothing to you.

Jaric wrote:No your saying curb my way of painting to fit under what you deem to be appropriate.

Common decency? Im not making Ovens or Death squads...

You started this thread saying that you wanted to make a nazi IG army. Many people have said that you should not. You seem to have just been looking for support, because despite the number of people that are clearly against it, you still think that it would be fine to make this army and you would not run into problems with anyone.
The fact is, nazis do not belong in 40k. The fact that the 40k universe is so harsh is not an excuse because the 40k universe is not real. Many people would be offended by an army if you tried to make an accurate representation of a nazi army, complete with swastikas and ss squads, and with good reason.

glowgos wrote:IF you want to do a "nazi" themed guard army do a late war version of tired old men and brainwashed adolescents.

In other words the Imperial Guard.

ph34r, there does not seem to be any kind of agreement on this issue.

Jaric, the best thing to point out is that if your friends don't care what you paint your guys as then do whatever. If you are playing publically then you will be at the mercy of the event organisers and they're unlikely to allow obviously painted nazi imagery on their tables.

Look I started this thread not to garnish support for my idea, but to see what the waters were like. So far I see people on both sides of the issue.

I would have hoped that if I brought this army to an adult setting, and people had an issue with it, they would ask me at least some questions about it rather than just arbitrarily make snap assumptions about me and the army.

Jaric wrote:Ulf and by Frazzled you are both being PC up to the point of being fascist. You are saying that since someone might interpret what I am doing as insulting, dont do it. Your like do it and hide it, or dont do it. At the very least its hypocritical.

And this I find laughable, "The whole concept is just tasteless and insulting to people who have a real-life connection to those events." So if I model a Guard army on an army that committed countless atrocities, murders, etc, and no one is alive who has a connection, its okay?

Im Canadian. I have no connection to your US atrocities on the Natives. Am I allowed to make a Nurgle army that's all diseased-looking native americans hugging US cavalry blankets without getting hassled? Which by the way is a cool idea and will remember it next time I make a fantasy army.

And your little story about not playing with that guy sounds very very prejudicial at least, and douche-like at worst. Did you even ask him why he did it? Was it historically accurate? There were Jewish people in the store so never mention the N word? Pretending something didnt happen is how these things happen in the first place. Those who forget history are bound to repeat it.

Well Ulf and Frazzled this must all be moot for you since your both American. Dont you prize Freedom of Speech as one of the most sacred of civil liberties?

Jaric, my point was just that if you're not planning on making it overtly and proudly Nazi, then why bring it up? It doesn't sound like you're pro-Nazi at all, so why not just paint the models any way you like, and be done with it? I'm not saying don't do it. Just that it's tasteless.

I mean, go as crazy with this as you feel you need to. Wear an army-surplus SS uniform to the next Games Day if you like. Whatever. I can't stop you, nor do I have any interest in telling you what to do. Live your life the way you see fit to. My two cents were just that it's a tasteless thing to do, and that your logic of "if a fictional evil is worse than a real evil, that makes it more palatable", sounds like nonsense to me. Thats' it.

Connection to historical events or no connection, you're missing the point i was trying to make, or maybe I was making it poorly. So let me clarify; I think that basing a fantastical army's theme on something horrible that involved hundreds of thousands of deaths is pretty tasteless. It could very well offend people, and why do that on purpose? Isn't there enough in the history of the 40K universe that can be used as the basis for an army?

To address your point about the guy from my old gaming group: he was a total jerk about this army. It had dead models wearing yarmulkes crushed under the treads of tanks, ovens used as bases for the heavy weapons, etc.... It was really pretty awful. We did ask him about it, and his point was that hey, it was a clever theme, and who cared about it, since it happened so long ago? So yeah, speaking as the one who knew this dude and saw this army, I feel pretty good about how people reacted. They just refused to give this guy the time of day and include him in any gaming that was going on.

I don't know how you connect what i'm saying to denying history, by the way. The implication is what; that making a Nazi-themed army is in some way helping keep WW2 alive in the public memory so that it never happens again? Well, I don't think it's in any danger of being forgotten, with or without some gamer's SS IG army.

I also never advocated not mentioning one word or another. Just that it was a serious event, with serious consequences, and that it's tasteless to compare it to a ficitional group of characters on the basis of a moral value judgement.

The last thing I'm gonna say is this: Jaric, I have no problem with your army. I personally like the color-schemes of many WW2 armies, on a purely aesthetic level. My question was always this: If you're not touting Nazism or planning on incorporating controversial iconogrpahy into your paint scheme, why even bring it up? I don't get the impression that you're a racist, nor that you condone anti-semitism in any way. So why not just paint the army, do a kick-ass job of it, post the pictures here and be done with it? I for one would never have even made the connection between an IG army with grey trooper and black commissar uniforms and the Third Reich. But since you pointed it out and then expressly asked for feedback, I was trying to oblige you.

Don't get so riled up. Calling me a fascist, or implying that I am one, is way out of line. I did not call you a racist, or even imply that. My criticisms are directed at the logic of your argument, not at you. I get to choose with whom I play games, and if I choose not to play against someone who's doing something I find offensive, how is that fascist? Am I somehow obligated to play them? Am I denying them some right, or dictating to them how to live their life? No, I am not. I am simply offering my opinions on a question that you, Jaric, asked in your original post. I used a hypothetical situation to illustrate my point.

Plus, what does living in the US have to do with anything? That one point I don't understand at all. Neither Frazzled nor I are saying one single thing about people not being allowed to express themselves. I for one, and to me it seems like Frazzled as well, an saying that if people want to do something offensive, then go nuts. But expect there to be reactions that don't favor that point of view.

Bottom line is that this is all opinion, anyhow. Take it into account, or don't. But you asked for people's opinions on a public forum, so don't get personal about it when people respond and offer the opinions you asked for.

Just to chuck in my 2 pence worth. I would have no issue whatsoever, in fact if it was anicely painted and themed amy, I'm more likely to applaud you. Nazi's Germany, WWII, its an historical event, get over it. You've all played COD games and that doesn't bother you knowing how much time and effort some games designers put into bringing back to life the Nazi amy, you've all watched WWII films and never had outcrys about 'how dare you recreate Nazi's'.

How many of you are offended by the new look Ultramarines. With thier colours, red leather tabbards, helmet plumes, they are very much based on the Romans, who slaughtered thousands in their quest for world domination, or witchhunters who burned alive 100's of innocents. Its an historical event! All you Space Marine Players, Trash your armies as the whole background of the 18 Legions is based upon the 18 Roman Legions etc etc, and they killed Jesus for Christs Sake, Heathens the Romans were, so all trash your Space marines in disgust! Black Templars or Crusaders who killed 1000's in the great crusades. Historical Events people. Recreating them doesn't make you an evil nasty person.

My Talleban Troops look like Afghan Terrorists with Turbans, I should bin them all, have the whole army melted down!

My apologies Ulf. I didnt mean for this to get personal. I just didnt like how you ostracized that guy, but now since you have explained it in more detail I understand your reaction better.

TheSecretSquig wrote:Just to chuck in my 2 pence worth. I would have no issue whatsoever, in fact if it was anicely painted and themed amy, I'm more likely to applaud you. Nazi's Germany, WWII, its an historical event, get over it. You've all played COD games and that doesn't bother you knowing how much time and effort some games designers put into bringing back to life the Nazi amy, you've all watched WWII films and never had outcrys about 'how dare you recreate Nazi's'.

How many of you are offended by the new look Ultramarines. With thier colours, red leather tabbards, helmet plumes, they are very much based on the Romans, who slaughtered thousands in their quest for world domination, or witchhunters who burned alive 100's of innocents. Its an historical event! All you Space Marine Players, Trash your armies as the whole background of the 18 Legions is based upon the 18 Roman Legions etc etc, and they killed Jesus for Christs Sake, Heathens the Romans were, so all trash your Space marines in disgust! Black Templars or Crusaders who killed 1000's in the great crusades. Historical Events people. Recreating them doesn't make you an evil nasty person.

My Talleban Troops look like Afghan Terrorists with Turbans, I should bin them all, have the whole army melted down!

Wait you have an army called the "Talleban?" Thats awesome lol. Are they killing Commies, or NATO?

Wow, sorry I responded to this thread. I was writing my last post when Jaric was writing about my supposed behavior when people play FOW. That is going too far, Jaric. You don't know me, or anything about me. If you ask for opinions, expect to get them. I at no time attakced you or implied anything negative about you. I thought I'd get the same courtesy in return. I was clearly wrong.

I thought I could present my point of view, in response to the OP's solicitation for opinions, without being called a fascist and without the implication that I'm some kind of violent person.

I'm done.

My Tallarn Army his actually called the Tal Hi'Barn Terror Troops. I have researched and put genuine replica's of Talleban Flags on some of the models. At a tournament we had a great few shots of it as my opponent had a Space Marine Army painted in the Stars & Stripes of the US. It looked awesome as 2 opposing armies go.

Ulf wrote:

As a side note, I did know a guy a bunch of years ago who used german WW2 themes in an old 2nd edition Mordian Iron Guard army. He basically never got another game in at our LGS. Not 40K, not fantasy battle, not MTG, not anything. Not a lot of people want to play someone who treats serious and tragic historical events like a joke. He even had a hard time coming into the shop from then on, because quite a few customers were jewish, and they in particular didn't think it was funny or pithy or cool.

It was unfortunate for your mate then that he had to deal with such an uptight group of people, I know jews who don't take offence at such things because they're rational people and not frothing at the mouth fanatics.

...Like making a Nurgle army that's all diseased-looking native americans hugging US cavalry blankets, or a 9/11-themed army that's all Stormboyz wearing turbans, Blood Axes wearing dynamite vests, and ork shoe-bombers, a Nazi-themed IG army would make me, for one, refuse to play that person and possibly ask them to step outside the game store and discuss it.

I'd be more concerned at the quality of the conversions and the overall theme and if I was truly offended I'd make it my mission to defeat that army every time I saw it. Afterall, 40K tabletop is about the game and not about personal politics.