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NO_SUCH_LUCK wrote:I'm surprised no one has laid a mushroom cloud on your head for saying the N word

Naggers? Like, people who Nag at you? Annoying people?

hope you didnt slip when typing that one Gwar
that could land you in the gak pretty quickly.

No, I didnt. It was a Subtle South park Joke. and slip? The fething letter is on the other side of the keyboard!

Oh to go back on topic:
I wouldn't care.
Many people (especially people who had no connection to the events of WW2) would

funny isnt it?
its allways people without connections to events that seem to shout about things, people who are connected tend to just get on with things and make no deal of it.

I think my take on it is that the Nazi era troops used Black and red....so if that were wrong, what would the Blood angel Death company be? There are Scads of armies that have used that color scheme before. I seem to recall that there were some early (2nd ed or so) GW Guard minis that had gas masks with lightning bolts on their helmets. GW tends to "borrow" heavily from history, so I don't see too much of a problem with you going with that. Just so I can /agree with everyone else though definitely leave off the SS/swastikas. Otherwise, yeah you could be calling down the thunder. Yadda yadda yadda public perception*, etc et al.

*I know that the swastika was a hindu symbol, and SS could just stand for "Salami sandwiches" for all I know, but that's not what people are gonna think. Toeing the line is fine. It's when you step over it that people start to get all angry.

If anyone asks say they are chaos/ evil.

There are two things to consider;
1. It might offend someone and you might feel bad
2. It might offend someone and they might annoy you yapping

namegoeshere wrote:If anyone asks say they are chaos/ evil.

They're part of the Imperium.

Of course they're evil.

So, let's go through this post-by-post:

Jaric wrote:So with the advent of the new Guard book, I am going to start a guard army. I was planning on painting the army with the colours of Germany circa ww2. Purlely an historically accurate colour scheme, no swastiks or Hellhounds fueled by Jews etc. I was then told that this could offend people which I think is slowed considering:

1. The Imperium is way worse than anything the Nazis did

2. I could paint an army with the Imperial Japanese colours and people wouldnt have a problem even though Japan was as bad or worse on the Chinese in ww2 and their POW's etc.

What do you think? Am I wrong? I could go to any minitaure store and buy every veh and model Germany had in the war, so is this any different?

Ok, here's my take: If you like the color scheme, and think it would look good on your IG army, I would feel kind of silly getting annoyed at you. But if you chose the color scheme because it was really important to you to create an army of Space Nazis, I would think less of you, and would be somewhat offended. I have nothing against WW2 miniature games, but I think there's something questionable about intentionally dragging all of that specific baggage into my Sci-Fi Fantasy game.

Your focus on comparing Germany to Japan and trying to show that "the Nazis kind of got an unfair rap, historically speaking" isn't doing you any favors.

Jaric wrote:How far down the rabbit hole of ignorance can I go do you think? If I put red arm bands on my troops, but with the Aquila instead of the Other symbol, is that kosher too?

Yes that word play was awesome and you know it.

What about black uniformed storm troopers? Would a little SS on the uniform be too much?

I think you could just paint Commissars to look like Gestapo without any real effort.

Do you think I would be allowed to play this army at a tournie? Could I be disqualified for a paint scheme?

On a side note, this leads me to a more general discussion. Obviously all the guard models are err modelled on armies from different eras. The Valhallans for instance look a lot like ww2 winter German soldiers to me.

Once again, the point shouldn't be to try and cram as much Nazi iconography as possible into your army without being yelled at. No one hands out bonus points for faithfully recreating every detail of the Gestapo's uniform.

Jaric wrote:Plus the most obvious German army out there: Death Korps (ww1 era).

If even GW is creating German army style models, should this even be an issue? Or is it because its pre-nazis German that its okay?

Ohhhhh Nazis are bad, but Mustard-Gas using Germans are okay?

Do you really not get the distinction between WW1 Germans and WW2 Germans? There's a big difference between "Germans" and "Nazis."

Jaric wrote:]Sorry bout kicking a dead horse. I assumed I wasnt the first person to think about gazis (guard+Nazis...or maybe Nuard...) but I have never seen it brought up here.

And I didnt mean to derail it with the Nazis v Japanese...its just weird how Nazis are just inhuman monsters to some people, and portraying ww2 Japanese in a poor light is offensive because some countries locked up their citizens in wartime.

Anywhooo so im getting colour scheme is okay, but Iconography is bad. But the colour red is conjunction is right out? I think red is a striking colour contrast and will look good sans Swastika. Maybe ill put the sickle and hammer on it and make them Comminazis...the ultimate insult to humanity!

Honestly, I'd come up with a different scheme. The scheme is not bad in and of itself, but you seem to be drawn to the scheme for the wrong reason. This is, of course, a personal thing, but someday someone is going to give you some mild crap about it, and if you react the "wrong way" (as you did in this thread) you may suddenly find that no one wants to play with you.

The wrong part is that there are no photos of painted minis in this whole thread.

Dammit.

What a total waste of thread space. I've never heard such absolute bollocks in my life. If you're planning to recreate a Wermacht colour scheme, go ahead. They used camo colour schemes like every other force in WW2. You don't see people getting crucified for painting up Luftwaffe models with painstaking accuracy, swastikas and all.

I can see why people would have beef with SS, swastika or Rising Sun heraldry. If these are removed, it's just another uniform, minus political inclination. If people still get pissed, refuse to play them.

brassangel wrote:No, what the Japs did to their Chinese POW's was not worse than what Germany did. Germany took people who weren't soldiers at all (and certainly not at war), and eliminated them because Darwins "Origin of Species" justified the downgrading of a nationality.

(emphasis mine)

What? What?! WHAT?!?!?

That's not right. That's not even wrong. Jesus H. Buddhallah Vishnu Christ, that's the most uninformed and ludicrous take on Nazi belief systems I've ever heard uttered by someone who's not a holocaust denier.

I'd say go for it (tastefully).
And by tastefully I don't mean skirt around the theme.
You don't need the symbols of the Reich, the guard have enough of their own
the 2 headed eagle, the skull and the wing
Use the grey-green, the lime-wash and the pea soup for the elites.
Black uniforms for the officers.
Make them fascists.
Right up parallel back story.
Make your opponent HATE them.
seriously
Use them to as the face of what's wrong with the Imperium:
during the good times they'll send in well trained soldiers
during the worst time they'll send in brainwashed and desperate children
all the while convinced that they where right.

It's creepy and nasty but the imagery works very well for the darker side of the Guard.

You know, this has probably been mentioned, but it's irritating because so many people now-a-days assume that all German soldiers were part of the Waffen SS and the Gestapo and other insidious organizations within their military. There were plenty of guys drafted into the regular army, or Heer, just like one our side (with the exception of the Einsatzgruppen, which were created and run by Himmler). And those regular soldiers didn't go around sporting red armbands and the double S insignias and massacring Jews. The only swastika they wore (from what I can tell) was on a badge, an eagle holding a very small swastika.

reference: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/germany.htm#1940
http://www.ww2archive.net/cat9.htm

Not the best references but still, it's something to go on.

Anyway now that I'm off of my soapbox, just do a regular Heer styled army and call it good.

Just do it, and as long as you don't add any Nazi iconography, nobody really cares.

I say go for it. And for those naysayers all I have to say is; if everything reminds you of WW2 someone is nursing alot more then a grudge; what the nazis did was horrible no doubt but don't let that influence the hobby. And for the record hitler stole the sieg-lightning bolts from old norse religion so do we suddenly hate them too??? Hitler stole the swastika from the romans, the same witht he "nazi" salute so do we hate the romans now too?????

Mecharius wrote:Hitler stole the swastika from the romans, the same witht he "nazi" salute so do we hate the romans now too?????

Wow, are you ever misinformed.

The Nazis took the Swastika from the Hindu and Buddhists. It's an Asiatic symbol dating back to the Neolithic period and had NOTHING to do with Rome.



As well, the actual Roman military salute was a single right handed fist clenched over the left breast. It's actually unknown(and highly unlikely) whether the "Roman Salute" was actually used by the Romans at all(there is no evidence to support the claim that they used it) and may just be an artistic license taken by French artists in the 18th Century, as this is the first time in history there is any record of this gesture existing at all.

Next time, know a little history before stating these things.

Jaric wrote:How far down the rabbit hole of ignorance can I go do you think?

Read below, as you have already gone far enough in my mind.

Jaric wrote:Would a little SS on the uniform be too much?

Yes, as in the original premise, you stated that it would be modeled after the generic German Army, not the SS.

Jaric wrote:I think you could just paint Commissars to look like Gestapo without any real effort.

Good for you, again, not part of the generic German Army.

Jaric wrote:Do you think I would be allowed to play this army at a tournie? Could I be disqualified for a paint scheme?

You could play a generic looking German army at a tournament, probably wouldn't be disqualified for the scheme.
You could throw in that other crap you have listed, maybe be disqualified, and have next to nobody want anything to do with you.

Jaric wrote:On a side note, this leads me to a more general discussion. Obviously all the guard models are err modelled on armies from different eras. The Valhallans for instance look a lot like ww2 winter German soldiers to me.

Yes, as has been established more than likely thousands of times by GW workers, artists, and managers, the armies that exist for IG are all based strongly off of some historical force, at least in an asthetic way.

Granted, I am not Jewish, Black, Slavic, and am not a gypsy by ethnic heritage (granted, living out of a van, selling art, and traveling makes me one by the sense of the word, but that is beside the point). When you talk about painting a ww2 era German army, and then begin throwing out different Nazi influences you would LIKE to incorporate, you are opening a can of worms.

Example: The SS and Gestapo were involved in the deaths of thousands of innocents, based on race, political motivation, or religious backround.
9/11 attackers: Involved in the deaths of thousands of innocents based on religious backround, political motivation (part of the U.S.), and race (American?)

Now, if I suggested on these forums that I paint an army modeled to look like Arabic guerrillas, and call my force the Taliban Regiment, do you think some people might be rightfully pissed off? The German army of ww2, especially in the beginning years, is something to admire, but if that is your motivation, then keep it to those worth admiration.

Oh for craps sake, how many other countries, have or have had Feldgrau uniforms? We're talking Sci Fi toy soldiers. So I guess if I paint my Guard in Olive Drab some persons over in Viet Nam are going to get all bent out of shape?

my opinion:
bad taste. bad Idea. don't do it.
there is entirely too many other choices out there.

brassangel wrote:If you left off the swastika, it's fine. It's just a color scheme after that.

The symbol that represented the Nazi party is what would offend.

No, what the Japs did to their Chinese POW's was not worse than what Germany did. Germany took people who weren't soldiers at all (and certainly not at war), and eliminated them because Darwins "Origin of Species" justified the downgrading of a nationality.

Completely different.

FYI: Jap is widely recognized as a racial slur.

I found your reply humorous when you state he shouldn't use the Swastika but then drop "Jap" in casually.

I don't find Jap terribly offensive, but it's certainly a slur, but more so it's just an out-dated term that will fade away in time like the word "colored" when meaning non-whites.

I say the OP should do whatever he wants. If he wants to model every guardsmen after Adolf Hitler even, then he should go for it. He'll be the one reaping any possibly repercussions, not anyone else in this thread.

Go for it. The Nazi's had a good uniform, regardless of what they were. The Swastika isn't even that offensive to me. It was actually a Hindu good luck charm before Hitler grabbed it (I swear, that man never had an original idea in his life). When viewed in its original context it's not insulting at all.

If you're really worried about people getting offended just replace all the Swastikas with an Iron Cross. It's still unmistakably Nazi, but for some reason it doesn't offend people.

On the whole Nazi issue; I had a friend who converted a WHFB skeleton unit to all be dressed in rotting Nazi uniforms (right down to the armbands). He got a few laughs, but then again we never played that unit outside our group of friends. I'm not sure I'd want to.

EDIT: as much as it may seem from my post, I am NOT a white supremest. Nazis were unmistakably evil.

Paint them grey, allow yourself a few armbands, but go with Demetedwombat's suggestion and add the Iron Cross if you feel like you need to add some iconography.
Personaly, I wouln't mind if you added swastikas, but a lot of people are sensitive to that kind of thing.

Hey man Just do it, but when you do it make it look good. It's your army you paid for it do what you want. I seen a Sisters of Battle army that belonged to some gamers wife with a Hello Kitty theme, the colors were soft pink, hot pink and red. This game is all about fun and thats what really matters.

Greenlight1107 wrote:a Hello Kitty theme, the colors were soft pink, hot pink and red.

Not only is this intimidating, but fun to imagine a unit retreating from said "Hello Kitty" Regiment.

"Watch the hot pink squad on your flank! We're being OVERRUN!"

Do it. Use all the symbols, and then go a step further.

Organize your forces to a very precise level like a German unit, with the exact number of troops per unit and tank support of the real unit. Execute blitzkrieg style warfare on opponents.

Go all the way. Don't worry about offending people. Educate them. On the realities of the Reich Army, and don't focus on the leadership and extraneous stuff. Just focus on a single combat unit.

Mattlov wrote:Do it. Use all the symbols, and then go a step further.

Organize your forces to a very precise level like a German unit, with the exact number of troops per unit and tank support of the real unit. Execute blitzkrieg style warfare on opponents.

Go all the way. Don't worry about offending people. Educate them. On the realities of the Reich Army, and don't focus on the leadership and extraneous stuff. Just focus on a single combat unit.

The sad part, I'm not sure if you're kidding.

dementedwombat wrote:

Mattlov wrote:Do it. Use all the symbols, and then go a step further.

Organize your forces to a very precise level like a German unit, with the exact number of troops per unit and tank support of the real unit. Execute blitzkrieg style warfare on opponents.

Go all the way. Don't worry about offending people. Educate them. On the realities of the Reich Army, and don't focus on the leadership and extraneous stuff. Just focus on a single combat unit.

The sad part, I'm not sure if you're kidding.

The sad part, I'm not sure why i agree with this. Tipppy-toeing round a piece of world history is one step from saying it didn't happen

Che-Vito: That's funny stuff man!!!

WOW this thread went WAY more smoothly then the last one I read about this same topic. Shoot man even I got into the argument. And personally I wouldnt care if you made them look similar. As long as the swastika was left off and SS icons off youd be totally fine. Adding any of those Im sure will make some people get pissed off.

KingCracker wrote:WOW this thread went WAY more smoothly then the last one I read about this same topic. Shoot man even I got into the argument. And personally I wouldnt care if you made them look similar. As long as the swastika was left off and SS icons off youd be totally fine. Adding any of those Im sure will make some people get pissed off.

The Sieg is perfectly good; it means quick. people educate yourself, just because it was used once in a bad way doesn't mean the symbol itself is bad.