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So with the advent of the new Guard book, I am going to start a guard army. I was planning on painting the army with the colours of Germany circa ww2. Purlely an historically accurate colour scheme, no swastiks or Hellhounds fueled by Jews etc. I was then told that this could offend people which I think is slowed considering:

1. The Imperium is way worse than anything the Nazis did

2. I could paint an army with the Imperial Japanese colours and people wouldnt have a problem even though Japan was as bad or worse on the Chinese in ww2 and their POW's etc.

What do you think? Am I wrong? I could go to any minitaure store and buy every veh and model Germany had in the war, so is this any different?

Just do it

I would just do it. Without the nazi symbology, it's hardly a super unique set of colors

do it, without the swastika's its pretty hard to identify the scheme as nazi

I'm surprised no one has laid a mushroom cloud on your head for saying the N word and guard in the same poast!

Well, GMM Studios painted up a beautiful army in roughly Third Reich colors and even without the swastikas, he got crucified in the forums for doing it.

How far down the rabbit hole of ignorance can I go do you think? If I put red arm bands on my troops, but with the Aquila instead of the Other symbol, is that kosher too?

Yes that word play was awesome and you know it.

What about black uniformed storm troopers? Would a little SS on the uniform be too much?

I think you could just paint Commissars to look like Gestapo without any real effort.

Do you think I would be allowed to play this army at a tournie? Could I be disqualified for a paint scheme?

On a side note, this leads me to a more general discussion. Obviously all the guard models are err modelled on armies from different eras. The Valhallans for instance look a lot like ww2 winter German soldiers to me.

Plus the most obvious German army out there: Death Korps (ww1 era).

If even GW is creating German army style models, should this even be an issue? Or is it because its pre-nazis German that its okay?

Ohhhhh Nazis are bad, but Mustard-Gas using Germans are okay?

I say go for it but make sure you do your uniform rights Field Grey/ German grey for early war and then later on in the war the uniforms changes Still field grey but they have the Pea soup and oak camo of late war.
Then on the Vehicles early war there panzer grey( german grey) and mid war there when you get all the differnet camo patterns, Late war you get the standard three color theme of Dark yellow, Dark green and red brown.
So you get some options Vs just plain grey vs three color camo depending on era of paint scheme.

i'll be using german ww2 vehicles for my renegade guard. I don't see a problem with it personally

If you left off the swastika, it's fine. It's just a color scheme after that.

The symbol that represented the Nazi party is what would offend.

No, what the Japs did to their Chinese POW's was not worse than what Germany did. Germany took people who weren't soldiers at all (and certainly not at war), and eliminated them because Darwins "Origin of Species" justified the downgrading of a nationality.

Completely different.

Jaric wrote:Plus the most obvious German army out there: Death Korps (ww1 era).

To get technical on you(as an owner of DKoK models), they are actually a combination of WW1 Germans and French(much more apparent in the Officers than the basic trooper).

GMM did red stripes and red flags on his stuff and got lynched for it. I think that tells you the line that you can cross without getting in trouble. SS on the uniforms, definitely bad form. Black uniformed storm troopers - hell, there are folks with black uniformed troops all over, so that's not a big deal.

<sigh> I don't want to get into a discussion about the morality of painting and playing questionable armies again and again. Do a search in the Modeling and Painting forum for "Nazi" and I'm sure you'll find all the previous discussions.

Jaric wrote:So with the advent of the new Guard book, I am going to start a guard army. I was planning on painting the army with the colours of Germany circa ww2. Purlely an historically accurate colour scheme, no swastiks or Hellhounds fueled by Jews etc. I was then told that this could offend people which I think is slowed considering:

1. The Imperium is way worse than anything the Nazis did

2. I could paint an army with the Imperial Japanese colours and people wouldnt have a problem even though Japan was as bad or worse on the Chinese in ww2 and their POW's etc.

What do you think? Am I wrong? I could go to any minitaure store and buy every veh and model Germany had in the war, so is this any different?

1. Imperium= fiction.
2. Is there some kind of "evil" scale out there? I'd avoid trying to compare how awful one horrific regime is to another.

I would call this questionable, it really depends on what you'r intentions are. If it's just for looks than it seems fine to me.

EDIT (removed all the hemming and hawing)

Please don't do this. You will get called on it. You will offend someone. If you want to paint Nazis, do a historical army (or at least Weird War II), or even better, get yourself a Tamiya or Academy kit and knock yourself out.

Basically, try to follow this rule: if you have to ask yourself whether it's in good or bad taste, it's probably in bad taste.

It seems to boil down to: Using the scheme of the German army circa WW2 is passable, it's once you start adding ANY historical iconography(the twin lightning SS, red flag/armbands, crosses, etc.) that a line seems to get crossed. Also, don't expect to use it in GW stores, as they frown upon Historically accurate schemes.

brassangel wrote:No, what the Japs did to their Chinese POW's was not worse than what Germany did. Germany took people who weren't soldiers at all (and certainly not at war), and eliminated them because Darwins "Origin of Species" justified the downgrading of a nationality.

Completely different.

Dude, you don't want to start this...the Japanese did horrific things to soldiers and civilians alike. It's not that different. But then, you can make similar arguments about the Soviet gulags and the millions that died there and Valhallan miniatures. This discussion has been had again and again and again. And what it always comes down to is "How much flak are you willing to take for your army?"

Dead horse time!

Why do you so badly want to emulate one of the most horrific totalitarian regimes in western history? Just think about that a second. Okay, fine historical blah blah, then why not try a WW2 game? Is it the fascinating early grey uniforms? The amazing later green grey uniforms? Black helmets? Now the SS did have some interesting patterns, but they are also considerably more complex to paint. And none of these will probably do more than raise an eyebrow if you don't add Nazi iconography. So why do you need to? And then why bother asking if people will be offended when you know they will?

jmurph wrote:Dead horse time!

Why do you so badly want to emulate one of the most horrific totalitarian regimes in western history? Just think about that a second. Okay, fine historical blah blah, then why not try a WW2 game? Is it the fascinating early grey uniforms? The amazing later green grey uniforms? Black helmets? Now the SS did have some interesting patterns, but they are also considerably more complex to paint. And none of these will probably do more than raise an eyebrow if you don't add Nazi iconography. So why do you need to? And then why bother asking if people will be offended when you know they will?

AHA! There it is!



SAY NAZI AGAIN MOTHERF%$#R!!!

Stalin killed more people than Hitler.

Nobody cares if you put his political officers in your army. Or make a Valhallan army.

I agree on not using swastikas or Jew hellhounds though. That would probably be in poor taste.

brassangel wrote:If you left off the swastika, it's fine. It's just a color scheme after that.

The symbol that represented the Nazi party is what would offend.

No, what the Japs did to their Chinese POW's was not worse than what Germany did. Germany took people who weren't soldiers at all (and certainly not at war), and eliminated them because Darwins "Origin of Species" justified the downgrading of a nationality.

Completely different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

"Would a little SS on the uniform be too much? "

Yep

Okay - I reference the following threads for previous discussions about using Nazi models and iconography.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209735.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/217610.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/227515.page

If these threads don't tell you how folks feel about ideas like this, I don't think there's a whole lot else that can be added. You'll note that only one of the three threads was ultimately locked due to the heated discussion.

Jaric wrote:2. I could paint an army with the Imperial Japanese colours and people wouldnt have a problem even though Japan was as bad or worse on the Chinese in ww2 and their POW's etc.

Want to bet no-one would have a problem?

brassangel wrote:If you left off the swastika, it's fine. It's just a color scheme after that.

The symbol that represented the Nazi party is what would offend.

No, what the Japs did to their Chinese POW's was not worse than what Germany did. Germany took people who weren't soldiers at all (and certainly not at war), and eliminated them because Darwins "Origin of Species" justified the downgrading of a nationality.

Completely different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

The Japanese did nasty things in WW2. And I am not a Japan Basher. I lived there once, love the country and the people and the country, and want to live there again one day. But lets not forget what can happen when extremism takes hold, in Europe or Asia.

Not condoning it, but its kind of ironic that if it were "I wanna do my Guard Like WW2 American Troops" no one would care.

The allies didn't exactly gak roses the whole war you know:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II

I am Jewish, and I honestly would not care. I do not find the Swastika offensive, for to do so would find much of Hindu and oriental Culture offensive. etc etc etc ad infinitum

Oh and just to as some srs to the thread:

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for anyone to see: just go with plain german style uniform, nothing wrong with it atall, its a bit of paint on a model

with the swas its very edgy, alot of people take offence to it (i dont see how its bad on a small model, its simply historical) but yea, alot of people may be up in arms about it, so not the best idea
allthough people who do all the historical re-enactments dont get shot for wearing the full uniform.



Edit:

not to hijack this thread, but i had an idea ages ago, but now thinking it may not be the best idea.

the 1/4 sun symbol (unsure of its name)
i was going to use a full sun symbol on tau, simply because black clothing, white armour and a red design like that would stand out, any way i can alter that to avoid causing offence?

or, any similar patterns? (pm me if so please)

Sorry bout kicking a dead horse. I assumed I wasnt the first person to think about gazis (guard+Nazis...or maybe Nuard...) but I have never seen it brought up here.

And I didnt mean to derail it with the Nazis v Japanese...its just weird how Nazis are just inhuman monsters to some people, and portraying ww2 Japanese in a poor light is offensive because some countries locked up their citizens in wartime.

Anywhooo so im getting colour scheme is okay, but Iconography is bad. But the colour red is conjunction is right out? I think red is a striking colour contrast and will look good sans Swastika. Maybe ill put the sickle and hammer on it and make them Comminazis...the ultimate insult to humanity!

red detail on them should be fine
just dont do a "+"
seems a tad too close for some people.

i myself am not really offended by anything, to me life is life, things have been said and done in the past which i do not agree with, but crying about them now will not change history.

Why not parody them and make them love nazis, with heartstikas?

or Hello Kitty Nazis.... ow my brain just exploded.

NO_SUCH_LUCK wrote:I'm surprised no one has laid a mushroom cloud on your head for saying the N word

You mean this word:

"NO_SUCH_LUCK"

?

Jaric wrote:And I didnt mean to derail it with the Nazis v Japanese...its just weird how Nazis are just inhuman monsters to some people, and portraying ww2 Japanese in a poor light is offensive because some countries locked up their citizens in wartime.

It's all about public perception. We still hear about the Nazis and have it held up as the ultimate evil today, but other than Pearl Harbor and the dropping of the bombs, the average person doesn't hear/talk about or perhaps know much about the Pacific Theater. Even looking at history shows/channels on TV, it's almost a 4:1 ratio(or more) of shows about Nazi German in relation to anything else WW2 related.

Hell, I know people who don't believe me when I tell them about how xenophobic/racist Japanese can be at times because their idea of Japan and Japanese society is Anime/Vidja games/Otaku.