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No harm no foul Chicken. I guess it wouldnt help my image in that I am also white and shave my head.


But not a Nazis. Promise.

Finnish military has used the swastika on their planes looong before A.H. ripped it off. I know the finns aren't offended by the
Although it was blue on white background and stood flat on the side, not on it's corner like the A.H. version, it was stilla swastika. It is still in use today.

Do people really think Hitler invented swastika?
He didn't invent anything, instead he ripped everything off - the ancient Rome being the biggest influence.
I say go with the grey uniform.
If people get offended by an army with grey uniforms, so be it. I bet then they will be offended by a lot of other stuff as well.

Just my two cents.

Jaric wrote: I guess it wouldnt help my image in that I am also white and shave my head.

Yeah, you should especially avoid the imagery of the Nazi party, then. You'll be auto pegged as a skinhead/Neo-Nazi otherwise.

so, one wrong is okay since it's not as wrong or popular as the other?

I don't think I said that. I don't think I even implied that. I don't think I even SORT OF implied that.

What I said, quite clearly, is that the atrocities of Stalin and Mao are not given enough consideration relative to the crimes of Hitler. Mao in particular is given nearly a free pass for murdering tens of millions.

we have plenty of fuel without bringing left/right into it.

This is about the seven hundreth time this thread has happened. You're right, it's not really about left and right, but after seven hundred threads, I get so tired of seeing the Political Correctness Gestapo tell somebody what they're allowed to paint something, I speak my mind.

Jaric wrote:No harm no foul Chicken. I guess it wouldnt help my image in that I am also white and shave my head.

You just answered your own question than. If you want to paint this army and keep it around yourself and your friends, go for it.

If you want to look like a Neo-Nazi moron, then by all means, bring your Nazi-themed army and shaved head to tournaments, and see how many people want anything to do with you. It's all about their perceptions at that point man.

Pake wrote:Finnish military has used the swastika on their planes looong before A.H. ripped it off. I know the finns aren't offended by the
Although it was blue on white background and stood flat on the side, not on it's corner like the A.H. version, it was stilla swastika. It is still in use today.

To be exact, it's in use in a much smaller capacity than it used to be. On airplanes, it was replaced by a white-and-blue roundel after WW2. But several medals and flags still show it quite prominently.

Well, since stupidity seems to run rampant throughout this thread, I will give my opinion.

As a part jew who's grandfather lived through the hell of the Shoah and the concentration camps I will give my blessing, because in the end it is just a color scheme. Flecktarn, the camoflage of the German army in this day and age was first used by the fallsckirmjäger of the Third Reich and no one seems to be offended by that. Feldgrau (field-grey) is just a color, not a symbol of Nazi-sympathy from your side.

Also I want to point out that there is a catch though. If I see you posting SS-colors I will be concerned for your social safety, that color scheme is still a bit of a nono. Wehrmacht however should be no problem. Take that from me who have reenacted as a Wehrmacht Feldvebel for years. Hell, I sought my gramp's permissions and blessings before I started with it and he said that it was good that I would be getting to go out in the sun and get healthy. Many Wehrmacht soldiers he told me were very friendly and helpful towards jews and most just never cared enough to rat them out.

And to Che-Vito: So shaved head means Neo-Nazi? Then I guess I have to go torch down a synagogue and shout Sieg Heil.

Hals und Beinbruch

Blah, blah, the Swastika was used before by everyone else, yes-yes-yes, but those times are gone, and what it represents now is PC unacceptable.

So;

Swastika;
Probably not, even historical model manufactures (WWII) do not even show it on the box art/image any longer because of PC and feelings and such (tear), but the decal is still included inside, so?

Goose-stepping posed guard;
Again, probably not a good idea.

Anything that may be considered in poor taste to an opponent, probably not a good idea;
Orks eating Tau babies, Etc. no matter how cool that would be!!!!

As for the rest, GO ahead, you would not be “wrong.” GW Imperial Eagle? etc…

Besides;
GW/FW armor is not emulating WWII Japanese Tanks (cus day is da lamest, I keeed, I keeed) http://www.tankmuseum.ru/images/pav7-11.jpg But seriously, judge for yourself.

I cannot believe this thread is FIVE (5) PAGES, lol

I can hardly wait for all the "nose art" that will get painted on the new plastic Valkyrie model, lol

I am painting my Flames of War Germans; fuschia am I wrong?
The answer is not required.

rexscarlet wrote:Blah, blah, the Swastika was used before by everyone else, yes-yes-yes, but those times are gone, and what it represents now is PC unacceptable.

Really?

Do you want to go and tell that to the Buddhists, Hindus and numerous others who still use it?

Its also still used heavily in many Asian (Sub Continent as well as Far East) cultures. But we are missing the point, this isn't about "Is the Swastika Bad?" because it is not. Its "Is it wrong to use it in a Nazi Context?"

Can I just add...







Interpret what you will.

I just painted an Imperial Guard platoon in German Fatigues, so what?

And also, the Death Korps of Krieg are German in but the bastardized name. They're based off French WW1 soldiers. There's not even a large amount of german influence in there - even the helmet is mainly French.

Get out of my internets.

sA

I need to do a Khmer Rouge Army.

I doubt much people will be offended.





(Pol pot made Hitler look like childs play, with his genocide)

Check the latest White Dwarf for some Heer inspired Imperial Guard.

(Pol pot made Hitler look like childs play, with his genocide)

Yet another genocide that doesn't get a huge amount of coverage because it has the double whammy of being perpetrated by Communists, and coming as a result of the American withdrawl from Vietnam.

That said Pol Pot was not objectively "worse" than Hitler. He was very, very bad, and he killed a lot of people, but the millions he killed are comparable in number to Hitler's genocides, not more. Add in the fact that Hitler instigated WWII, and Hitler is probably "worse" than Pol Pot (by a great margin).

Plus, hey... He was a Communist. And Communism is a "great idea" that just keeps getting "twisted" by evil men, right? Right? Right? I mean, look at Cuba... Er... IT'S GREAT!

yakface wrote:

The former has some sort of historical reference while the latter does not. While you may have just painted a confederate flag on the roof of your honda civic because you like 'dukes of hazard' people seeing your car aren't going to automatically know that and many will therefore assume you are potentially a racist.

Ignorant people should not be pandered to but educated. I got into a discussion once with a Roman reenactor about whether to put swastikas on a shield that had otherwise been painted to look like the one found at Duro Europos. In the end he did and it's caused no problems. It raises some questions from time to time by the public which is good because those people get to know more about the shield and that symbol's use in ancient times.

Ignorant people when left to their own devices do stupid things like protesting outside hindu temples because a muslim terrorist has just set off another bomb, or hassle paediatricians because they think they're pedophiles.

The whole concept of pc to me seems more akin to brainwashing than people getting along with one another. Someone will always take offence which is why it's better to teach the art of compromise than the blunt stick approach of pc.

Vargtass wrote: If I see you posting SS-colors I will be concerned for your social safety, that color scheme is still a bit of a nono.
Hals und Beinbruch

What are ss colours? Do you mean the black dress uniforms with the red armbands or something else?

To the poster who reckoned that krieg helmets were more french, they're obviously german but have a crest that is inspired by the french adrian helmet. Both helmets being inspired by mediaeval ones.

Jaric wrote:Wow I leave for a day and a whole debate happens!

I appreciate everyone's opinion on the subject, both those for and against. A lively debate is much better than a lynching...

Kid Kyoto I actually did not mean to imply I was trying to cram as much Nazis as I could and get away with it. I wanted peoples opinions on if I painted this army a certain way, how much flak would I get.

And no I would not merely take what I think is Nazis garb and paint it on some Cadians. I am a History Grad, and I would put some effort into learning what is supposed to look like what. Im a stickler for detail.

As for a followup, the Cadian heads dont really fit the German style (look more like US or Canadian GI's). Does anyone know of any heads that would fit better?

West wind productions sells them. They have both gasmask and non gasmask versions.

I guess you could use the original swastika which limbs face in the opposite direction from the nazi version. the original signifies peace and life the nazi version does the complete opposite!

Grubsnik

This post is about painting an IG Army WWII 3rd Reich.

The Swastika memtioned in my post is IN RELATION TO THAT.

As there were prevalent Swastikas through-out said Army; flags on top of vehicles, armbands, insigina, etc.

I was saying in the WWII context, not a good idea.

Since this is a NON-Historical game; WWII "German" Swastika = not a good idea, as it is not very PC, is that better?

I still want to make Orks eating Tau babies...

As far as I'm aware the Swastika didn’t actually appear on the uniforms of the Heer. The Waffen SS I'm not so sure about.

To be honest this is mute point, one can be inspired by the military uniforms, tactics and battles of a nation without glorifying the politics of said nation. After all the British Empire was responsible for some horrific atrocities in its time yet no one would suggest that collecting a Praetorian army made you some kind of apologist.

The Idea that doing a German inspired IG army makes one some kind of Nazi sympathiser is AFAIC deeply offensive. What exactly then would you imply about the WW2 historical gaming communities? Perhaps you would like to go to the FOW community and make this claim?

You need to do a test model and post it here.

Make this thread worth something. Then everyone can get up in arms bout his red arm band.

Oh yes. We definitely need a 'Hot or Nazi' poll on these models.

Bad puns aside, it would be nice to see a test model. The paint probably has less of a negative connotation than the words used to describe it.

I have stayed out of this thread for abit! ( there was an identical thread a month or 2 back )

If you really care about what others think , sticking with the color is perfectly fine, but leave the swastika out.

If you really cant figure out why its bad taste, sure ignore what we all say and go for it. ( Experience the result first hand yourself which is better than what we can warn you with right? )

I think people need to differentiate between Nazi (member of the ruling political party in WW2) and Whermacht (member of the German armed forces). I agree that specifically doing armies based upon the Gestapo, concentration camp service or death squads is pushing boundaries of good taste. The Waffen SS is a bit of a grey area in so much that they were field units and weren't directly involved in Nazi Atrocities. But armies based on the Heer (Army) I've no issue with at all.

Describing German inspired IG armies as 'Nazis in space' is rather misleading as only a minority of the German soldiers were paid up members of the party and the officer class was well known for its distain for the regime (The waffen SS units were distrusted by the Army high command) and hated the state interference in army affairs. Automatically calling members of the German army 'Nazi soldiers' is a bit like calling British soldiers Iraq 'Labour soldiers'.

One can pick holes in the Ideology of almost any historically inspired force. Ultimately it’s a pointless exercise.

Vargtass wrote:And to Che-Vito: So shaved head means Neo-Nazi?

I'll be generous and assume you skipped reading the rest of his post, since it was referencing being the skinhead who showed up with their IG painted up in Nazi regalia. Anyone who did that... yeah. When my first impression of a guy is that he's a skinhead with a hard-on for nazi symbolism, that's a pretty striking self-presentation, not not in a positive way.

Dave47 wrote:Ok, here's my take: If you like the color scheme, and think it would look good on your IG army, I would feel kind of silly getting annoyed at you. But if you chose the color scheme because it was really important to you to create an army of Space Nazis, I would think less of you, and would be somewhat offended. I have nothing against WW2 miniature games, but I think there's something questionable about intentionally dragging all of that specific baggage into my Sci-Fi Fantasy game.

Seriously, if you're that desperate for attention, spend less money on miniature games and more on getting your psychological dysfunctions straightened out.

Ultimately we all hate someone and we all have biases against someone, right? Why can't we just be honest about history? It's a game full of toy soldiers for crying out loud. We are allowed to hate Nazi's because they're white guys, but there's no way that we could ever charge an African man for being a racist even if he were to say that he hated me for the colour of my skin.

Go ahead, try and tell a black guy that he's a racist and see what happens. It's like you're pissing on a sacred relic: The 'freedom' they have that no one else has. It's completely backwards.

In the same way we can tell European (or the U.S.) governments that they've slaughtered millions in the war on terror but we can't call the Japanese or Chinese that for having slaughtered tens of millions in the past hundred years.

I say do it. Take a stand and do something in the interest of history... If you are a nazi that's fine (though I'm sure you're not). I'm sure damnation would be in your future but it would still be your choice. Who can throw stones? People who are members of the Weather Underground or the Black Panthers aren't racists, so what's in a name? Our politics and our visions of fairness are totally screwy. Who cares about what society will say. YOU know you're real intent and that's all that really matters. Everyone else is just whining about things they don't know anything about. The only people who can condemn you are those closest to you who know you best. So go for it. Paint a scheme that's interesting, that'll stimulate debate, that looks cool, and that'll set you apart from the rest.

LuciusAR wrote:I think people need to differentiate between Nazi (member of the ruling political party in WW2) and Whermacht (member of the German armed forces). I agree that specifically doing armies based upon the Gestapo, concentration camp service or death squads is pushing boundaries of good taste. The Waffen SS is a bit of a grey area in so much that they were field units and weren't directly involved in Nazi Atrocities. But armies based on the Heer (Army) I've no issue with at all.

Agreed. I think this sums up the sentiment that a lot of people share. It's not so much that it's anti-German army, rather anti-Nazi. and like I mentioned earlier, painting your army like the SS or other Nazi Party members will probably send out the wrong message.

In all honesty anonymous strangers on the internet can only tell you so much. If YOU really want to do it, no one will stop you. But just be conscious that some people may take it the wrong way.

In response to the previous comments made by other people in this thread, just because people don't get flak for painting up communist armies or armies in the colours of other genocidal dictators, doesn't really give a good reason to put up an SS-themed or Nazi-poster-boy army. To paraphrase, "Oh if other people are doing something JUST as bad/wrong, I should do it too!".

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Ultimately we all hate someone and we all have biases against someone, right? Why can't we just be honest about history? It's a game full of toy soldiers for crying out loud. We are allowed to hate Nazi's because they're white guys, but there's no way that we could ever charge an African man for being a racist even if he were to say that he hated me for the colour of my skin.

Go ahead, try and tell a black guy that he's a racist and see what happens. It's like you're pissing on a sacred relic: The 'freedom' they have that no one else has. It's completely backwards.

In the same way we can tell European (or the U.S.) governments that they've slaughtered millions in the war on terror but we can't call the Japanese or Chinese that for having slaughtered tens of millions in the past hundred years.

I say do it. Take a stand and do something in the interest of history... If you are a nazi that's fine (though I'm sure you're not). I'm sure damnation would be in your future but it would still be your choice. Who can throw stones? People who are members of the Weather Underground or the Black Panthers aren't racists, so what's in a name? Our politics and our visions of fairness are totally screwy. Who cares about what society will say. YOU know you're real intent and that's all that really matters. Everyone else is just whining about things they don't know anything about. The only people who can condemn you are those closest to you who know you best. So go for it. Paint a scheme that's interesting, that'll stimulate debate, that looks cool, and that'll set you apart from the rest.

This is probably the most surreal post I've seen on dakka!
I'm not sure if this is an anti-white position that the members of dakka have taken. Clearly there are people opposed to any genocidal dictatorship themed armies.

Also I think your view of history seems to be a little skewed. While every major culture (not race) has participated in large scale warfare that has caused many deaths, I'm pretty sure many people are intelligent enough to be aware of this. Hopefully this doesn't go off topic, but the only reason why we discuss the "war on terror" (deliberate quotes), is that it's a contemporary issue, vs. something that happened "the past hundred years".

To say that the Jaric is making a grand political statement against reverse-racism by painting Nazi-themed toy soliders is a bit of a stretch. Also I'm sure Jaric does not want to ostracize himself from his local gaming community by bringing little Nazi's everywhere with him. And like the OP recognized, it doesn't help that he's white and has a shaved head [no offence! ]. While yes, he would be making a pretty bold statement, ocassionally there is a bit of self-censorship that we all need. I don't run around feeling the need to point out every injustice that has ever been perpetuated. Similarly, if Jaric ever comes across someone questioning his moral integrity by having toy-Nazi's in a sci-fi game, for him to go out and lecture them on their own integrity to justify his work, I think that would just be not-so-fun-times for everyone involved.

In the end it's a game yes, but I suppose there are some limits to what is acceptable.

Personally, I think a Werchmart themed force would look pretty good, but possibly the drab-grey would be a bit ... well ... dull.

Maybe the Flektarn (right spelling?) instead. Also, the swastika, if I'm not mistaken, didn't appear much on the standard German forces, it was mainly the cross.

I don't think the swastika is a great idea, but that's mainly because I don't like how it looks. If the OP wants to smash swastikas all over his guard, he should! It doesn't mean he's a Nazi. If I was to paint Red Stars all over my guard, it wouldn't mean I was a Soviet, surely?