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TheSecretSquig wrote:My Tallarn Army his actually called the Tal Hi'Barn Terror Troops. I have researched and put genuine replica's of Talleban Flags on some of the models. At a tournament we had a great few shots of it as my opponent had a Space Marine Army painted in the Stars & Stripes of the US. It looked awesome as 2 opposing armies go.

Lol I just dont understand this. You had a Talleban army, flags included, in a tournie and no one cared? Why the hell am I worried about then?

Oh and Ulf:

Less QQ more Pew Pew.

Here I have my Rough Riders (Tal Hi'Barn Shock Troops) carrying actual Talleban army flags. My trooper's armed with demo charges actually have a C4 harness modelled onto them (guy in the middle). I used this in several tournaments at GW HQ in Notts, and its won a best painted / themed army award at the same event. I've never had any issues with any opponents, including the Die Hard USA guy with his painted Stars & Stripes army, when we played, we had a great laugh about each others armies.

If I came accross a themed IG Nazi army, I'd only get upset if it wasn't historically correct.

You sir have just renewed my faith in the common man not being a PC tard.

Thank you.

Lol I just dont understand this. You had a Talleban army, flags included, in a tournie and no one cared? Why the hell am I worried about then?

simple.
they were all adult enough to know that a model is just a model.

But you are from the U.K. id say as a whole we are more liberal than flags and freedom USA stiff upper lip and all that.

my 2P is that the OP is clearly a troll and should do a army a bit more current if he wants a original discution.

Im thinking a IDF force with armoured bulldozers as chimeras, oh yeah those guys arn't accurate so should suit guard.

My army was taken away by a GW Photographer to be photo'ed up and featured on their web site. I stopped him because I had the sense to know it wasn't 100% PC for a large organisation like GW to show Tallebarn Flags on their web site. They aggreed, and pic's were never taken. No-one had an issue, certainly not the 100 competitors who voted it the best painted themed army. I have no idea whatsoever what the arabic writing on the flags mean, nor do I care. Its a well themed, historically correct army.

If someone takes offense to it, its their petty problem to get over. Whatever country, background, religion you are, somewhere in history, you did something bad.

glowgos wrote:But you are from the U.K. id say as a whole we are more liberal than flags and freedom USA stiff upper lip and all that.

I think that's irrelevant, actually. The GW manager that told me that GW does not allow people to play historically accurate armies(their words, NOT MINE, and he said ANY army, not just WW2 Germans) in their stores was managing a U.K. GW store for a British Company that doesn't allow it within their stores. From what he told me, it sounds like GW doesn't allow it for the same reason of it may offend people and then they will blame the company for allowing offensive material in their store(the same reason they will kick you out for cursing).

cadbren wrote:

Ulf wrote:

As a side note, I did know a guy a bunch of years ago who used german WW2 themes in an old 2nd edition Mordian Iron Guard army. He basically never got another game in at our LGS. Not 40K, not fantasy battle, not MTG, not anything. Not a lot of people want to play someone who treats serious and tragic historical events like a joke. He even had a hard time coming into the shop from then on, because quite a few customers were jewish, and they in particular didn't think it was funny or pithy or cool.

It was unfortunate for your mate then that he had to deal with such an uptight group of people, I know jews who don't take offence at such things because they're rational people and not frothing at the mouth fanatics.

Suggesting that people that disagree with you are "frothing at the mouth fanatics" is a great way for me to stop caring about your opinion.

I thinlk this entire thing is getting blown out of proportion. While I agree with many points (and disagree with quite a few as well), they have nothing to do with the original issue. That being, should the OP paint a IG army in a Nazi (WWII German) Color Scheme. As uniforms go, you could do much worse than Nazis. I have the feeling that, if painted in historically accurate WWII German battle dress, the vast majority of people wouldn't even notice a Nazi influence.

The problem arises when overt Nazi iconography is used. I agree that, at least in the interest of personal safety while playing at clubs, the swastika/ss symbols should be avoided. That being said, however, there are many other symbols that suggest "WWII German army" without screaming "Nazi." Therein arises the question of is it possible to seperate "German Army" from "Nazi." I would say that it is. The image of polished German organization is easily identifiable and seperate from the image of "evil Nazi lunatic".

Paint lots of stark, imperialistic symbols on your guard. Mechanize them. Have waves of grim grey clad troopers piling out of Chimeras to strike where the enemy is weakest. Create Commissars and Generals in black and red trench coats to watch over it all and enforce discipline where it is lacking. Achieve that without using Nazi symbols, and you will achieve success.

Winding down after that last paragraph, I'm all for a mechanized Blitzkrieg IG. That's what they're good at. Use the German color scheme, if that's what looks good (or terrifying, as the case may be). They don't have to be Nazi, they just have to be German. That's the image you want.

EDIT: space marines in stars and stripes, that's awesome. I've got to find a picture of that.

TheSecretSquig wrote:If someone takes offense to it, its their petty problem to get over. Whatever country, background, religion you are, somewhere in history, you did something bad.

That doesn't mean that you should make an army based on the bad things that your country did and drag it into Warhammer 40k.

Jaric wrote:You sir have just renewed my faith in the common man not being a PC tard.

And... more insults against people who do not agree with you. Great. Way to support your point of view.

i just find it highly amusing that people take offence to models.

you know the 40k addiction has taken over when you start to merge 40k with reality.

does this now mean if someone doesent like ravenwing they are now a racist since the models have black armour?

JD21290 wrote:i just find it highly amusing that people take offence to models.

you know the 40k addiction has taken over when you start to merge 40k with reality.

does this now mean if someone doesent like ravenwing they are now a racist since the models have black armour?

How can armor color = skin color = racism? There is an entire chapter of black space marines and that is not racist, there is no way that a black armored chapter is racist.
What it does mean is that, if you model your IG army with white land ownders as commissars and black slaves as penal troops, someone will be offended. And why shouldn't they?

I think that's irrelevant, actually. The GW manager that told me that GW does not allow people to play historically accurate armies(their words, NOT MINE, and he said ANY army, not just WW2 Germans) in their stores was managing a U.K. GW store for a British Company that doesn't allow it within their stores. From what he told me, it sounds like GW doesn't allow it for the same reason of it may offend people and then they will blame the company for allowing offensive material in their store(the same reason they will kick you out for cursing)./

Who exactly is the GW manager? junior or senior, he just sounds like hes bigging up the company's"responsibility and ethics" i wouldn't be surprised if he told you next they would use "green" materials. I have also seen seen histroicaly accurate armies (what ever the hell that is ) being played in stores and tournaments the celts , japanese samurai and yes germans spring to mind.

P.S. I think geographic location has a big effect on the culture and therefore possibility to offence, for example if i took a "nazi" army to israle id have a totaly diffrent reaction than if i had taken them to Uganda. I find the idea of basing your guys on a grinding industrial killing machine adhorent .

Platuan4th wrote:

glowgos wrote:But you are from the U.K. id say as a whole we are more liberal than flags and freedom USA stiff upper lip and all that.

I think that's irrelevant, actually. The GW manager that told me that GW does not allow people to play historically accurate armies(their words, NOT MINE, and he said ANY army, not just WW2 Germans) in their stores was managing a U.K. GW store for a British Company that doesn't allow it within their stores. From what he told me, it sounds like GW doesn't allow it for the same reason of it may offend people and then they will blame the company for allowing offensive material in their store(the same reason they will kick you out for cursing).

I've used this several times in GW HQ, used in local GW stores and no-one has ever had a problem. Talleban have horses, I have cold ones, I have sucide bombers with modelled explosive harness for demo charges. I swapped all my Tallarn Missile Launchers for the Steel Legion ones, as they look more like the Soviet era Rockits the Talleban would use, Feth, I even called the army Tal Hi'Barn. Read the Cities of Death book and in the back you'll find GW's version of Stallengrad, and they even admit this in the book. Now if I was to add Dead Cadian's to bases and tanks and things, painted up to represent any of the allied forces, then that would be out of order, distasteful, and deservedly wrong. But there is a limit, a line you don't cross and that would be it.

If I had the money, I'd love to do a DKK army painted and themed as a WWII German army, as with those models, if done correctly would look awesome. Thats not to say I support Mr Hitlers views, or I show no respect to any of the ethnic minorities he persecuted, but that I kow my HISTORY and I'd make it as historically correct. I personally, would not put Swazikas on it, but instead of the black symbol, I'd use an Imperial Eagle. The Talleban flags above suit my IG army, as its modelled off a rebelious group of dessert nomads, not an Emporer loving IG army.

glowgos wrote:I find the idea of basing your guys on a grinding industrial killing machine adhorent .

I don't think it's so much the army wants to be Nazi. It's just that a soulless grinding machine is exactly what the Guard is. The Nazis are the best example of that we can relate to in our real life. It's only natural to model something based off real world influences.

I am in no way supporting an army with Nazi symbols. I'm just saying that there's other reasons to do it than believing the Nazis were right. I would have no issue with an authentic Nazi army, but most people would. Therefore I propose the compromise I discussed previous.

I love arguing with no one. Nobody cares about this point I'm making right now. I'll stop posting now.

How can armor color = skin color = racism? There is an entire chapter of black space marines and that is not racist, there is no way that a black armored chapter is racist.
What it does mean is that, if you model your IG army with white land ownders as commissars and black slaves as penal troops, someone will be offended. And why shouldn't they?

from the looks of how far this has been taken so far i wouldnt put it past a few people.

(this is starting to remind me of the RE5 argument)

not only would that be a stupid idea, but i think most people have enough sense to realise thats not a good idea.
allthough, what do the dark eldar take?
slaves are known in 40k and WHFB, read fluff and you will see plenty.

The imperial guard always struck me as more WW1 than WW2 but i can relate to the familiar themes especially with the space marines

Bored now. Perhaps the OP should have set this up as a poll thread, and spared us from the PC nonsense that's accumulating here.

JD21290 wrote:slaves are known in 40k and WHFB, read fluff and you will see plenty.

Yes, slaves are a part of the 40k universe. Brutal dictatorships, witch hunts, and wiping out millions are part of the 40k universe. Does that mean that you should make an army that brings real world history that was tragic for a huge number of people, and still remains a very touchy subject today, and make a 40k army based on it with the excuse that something similar to it exists in a similar fashion in 40k? No.

glowgos wrote:The imperial guard always struck me as more WW1 than WW2 but i can relate to the familiar themes especially with the space marines

Thank you. When dealing with things beyond our understanding (system wide warfare where a million people could be killed in a second, 8ft tall genetically modified killing machines, dark gods etc.) it is necessary to "back it down" so we can grasp the scale.

The WWII German army is simply the best reference point we have for system wide grinding warfare. Let's hope we never get a better one.

I'm done for real this time. I think we should just let this thread die. Every point that can be made probably has been at least once.

its made a very touchy subject by people who keep dragging it into light every 5 minutes.

i think everyone should stop with this PC bs for a while and think about what they are actually saying here.
its a game involving small models, in a galaxy where nearly everything we have in our history has been done, but on a much larger scale.

its people who are TOO PC that cause more problems for everyone.


im out of this one now before i say something i do regret, but overall im just pissed off with how far people do take things, rather than thinking before they say something they instead preach PC crap to everyone, which ok, in this day and age its expected to be PC, but not to the degree where you start disputes about the smallest of things.

JD21290 wrote:its made a very touchy subject by people who keep dragging it into light every 5 minutes.

i think everyone should stop with this PC bs for a while and think about what they are actually saying here.
its a game involving small models, in a galaxy where nearly everything we have in our history has been done, but on a much larger scale.

its people who are TOO PC that cause more problems for everyone.


im out of this one now before i say something i do regret, but overall im just pissed off with how far people do take things, rather than thinking before they say something they instead preach PC crap to everyone, which ok, in this day and age its expected to be PC, but not to the degree where you start disputes about the smallest of things.

Compared to most people I know I am very un-PC. I don't start arguments about racism, I don't "drag it into the light every 5 minutes". Making an army of slaves and slave owners, which you seem to be defending by saying that I am being overly PC, is just ridiculous. You are just being completely unreasonable if you think that a person who thinks an obviously racist and offensive army is being "TOO PC", "dragging it into light every 5 minutes", or is talking "PC bs".

I get the feeling some people are thinking this will turn out to be a holocaust themed army, as opposed to one based off of the German military.

It's not in any way equivalent to basing an army off of, say, 9/11, or slavery, or Stalin's Ukrainian famine. Those are events, not armies.

It's a military force based off of a military force, and I fail to see what would make it worse than a Valhallan or Praetorian army (assuming the army still retains roots in the 40k universe).

ph34r wrote:

JD21290 wrote:i just find it highly amusing that people take offence to models.

you know the 40k addiction has taken over when you start to merge 40k with reality.

does this now mean if someone doesent like ravenwing they are now a racist since the models have black armour?

How can armor color = skin color = racism? There is an entire chapter of black space marines and that is not racist, there is no way that a black armored chapter is racist.
What it does mean is that, if you model your IG army with white land ownders as commissars and black slaves as penal troops, someone will be offended. And why shouldn't they?

Not racist? Purge the alien anyone?....

K Paint how ever you want really you could even do different colors like a friend said to me you could do pee dot just maybe different colors like on a ash waste world so red and blue or black and red an so on.
people should not have a problem as long as you dont add a Nazi over tone like the swastika and such. like I said use common sense no one should have a problem with a German color scheme.
The only problem is that SS colors are the different but yet very different and most people can spot them. but regular army unit is very boring.
like I said early use maybe a Fallschirmjäger color scheme that would be different.
just my 2 cents

Orkeosaurus wrote:I get the feeling some people are thinking this will turn out to be a holocaust themed army, as opposed to one based off of the German military.

It's not in any way equivalent to basing an army off of, say, 9/11, or slavery, or Stalin's Ukrainian famine. Those are events, not armies.

It's a military force based off of a military force, and I fail to see what would make it worse than a Valhallan or Praetorian army (assuming the army still retains roots in the 40k universe).

I know that the proposed army would not be anything like one poster described with ovens on HW team bases, etc. A color scheme is just a color scheme, a style is just a style, but when you bring things like red arm bands and swastikas into your army it's not just an idea or a theme, it's you actually making a nazi army in 40k with that explicit purpose.

I think you have to have a mix and a blend of history, and fictional correctness.

E.g. If you painted an Historically correct IG army as a WWII German army complete with Swaztikas, then that would be wrong as it does not fit into the 40k universe. Swap the plack Swaztika for an Imperial Eagle, and it does fit.

My Ta Hi'Barn troops sporting bomd harness's and Talleban flags works fine. If I then painted dead US or UK troops on the bases or modelled trophies like a Cadian helment with a US / UK Flag on it, wrong.

mattyboy22 wrote:Not racist? Purge the alien anyone?....

Aliens are not real, there is no alien that would take offense to that. That is something that only exists in 40k and has no hold in history.
If the SM battle cry was "Purge the jews and gypsies", that would be racist.

TheSecretSquig wrote:I think you have to have a mix and a blend of history, and fictional correctness.

E.g. If you painted an Historically correct IG army as a WWII German army complete with Swaztikas, then that would be wrong as it does not fit into the 40k universe. Swap the plack Swaztika for an Imperial Eagle, and it does fit.

I agree with this. If you like the style of a historical army, and make a 40k army similar to that, fine. If you make an army that is obviously just that historical army, not fine.
I would go further than just swapping Swaztikas and remove arm bands as they have no precedence in 40k and can't be justified that way, but you could probably get away with just swapping swastikas.