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reds8n wrote:With version 5 still being Big C and etc etc etc standard rules and caveats apply still.

Oh come off it. Are you trying to tell me that GW (or anyone) releasing (for free) a new or different version of a set of rules somehow makes the previous version illegal distribute (for free)*?

This is no different to someone uploading an old FAQ. Or one of the experimental rules that FW has put up for their new units over the years.




*Assuming said older version is not changed in any way to hide the fact that it is out of date or in any way make it appear that it is the new version and that it is obviously the previously available version.

It does if it is copyrighted material, yes.

And GW legal have been so understanding and helpful, especially of late, too right ?

For once, I would like to see some sort of real anti-games workshop movement going along... yes you got your boycotts and your online flames... But since they are pretty much unseen to GW, a more direct method is perhaps needed?

I have to say, I have no sympathy for the poor sod who wrote the original rules set, and then was "supposedly" told to destroy his copy or else......I mean, what kind of spineless individual allows themselves to be bullied in this way? I don't mean to be rude, but with everything going on right now, involving GW and its C&D letters etc, its starting to wind me up that people would rather come onto a website forum, runny nose an all, and complain about big bad GW, rather then rolling up their sleeves and getting to work!!

I don't care how big everyone percieves GW to be, the law is the law, and if GW is breaking the law then it doesn't matter how much money they have in their bank, they won't win! Hell, people sue places like Mcdonalds for their coffee being too hot, and win! people sue cigarette companies for "making" them smoke till they develop cancer....and they win! GW is nothing...NOTHING in size to these companies, and has nowhere near their spending power or legal defence....and yet people are bending over, lowering their underwear and exposing the one way shute to the GW bully boy tactics! Its ridiculous and shameful.

Bullies will take what they can get, and nothing pleases a bully more than people just "taking it on the chin"! So until someone punches back, nothing will change.

If this guy really spent 5 years of his life working on this, then in the first instance, get a girlfriend, and spend some time in the sun....hell, even internet porn will help! in the second instance, tell GW where to go, get some legal advice, and stop being a gakker!

Let this be a lesson to any other volunteer, who choses to spend his valuable time doing what GW can't be bothered to do! Don't expect thanks, don't even expect money.....do expect to lose your virginity a second time, prison style, and do expect to have to fight for what you believe in!

This isn't an endeavour for the weak hearted!

Delephont wrote:I have to say, I have no sympathy for the poor sod who wrote the original rules set, and then was "supposedly" told to destroy his copy or else......I mean, what kind of spineless individual allows themselves to be bullied in this way? I don't mean to be rude, but with everything going on right now, involving GW and its C&D letters etc, its starting to wind me up that people would rather come onto a website forum, runny nose an all, and complain about big bad GW, rather then rolling up their sleeves and getting to work!!

I don't care how big everyone percieves GW to be, the law is the law, and if GW is breaking the law then it doesn't matter how much money they have in their bank, they won't win! Hell, people sue places like Mcdonalds for their coffee being too hot, and win! people sue cigarette companies for "making" them smoke till they develop cancer....and they win! GW is nothing...NOTHING in size to these companies, and has nowhere near their spending power or legal defence....and yet people are bending over, lowering their underwear and exposing the one way shute to the GW bully boy tactics! Its ridiculous and shameful.

Bullies will take what they can get, and nothing pleases a bully more than people just "taking it on the chin"! So until someone punches back, nothing will change.

If this guy really spent 5 years of his life working on this, then in the first instance, get a girlfriend, and spend some time in the sun....hell, even internet porn will help! in the second instance, tell GW where to go, get some legal advice, and stop being a gakker!

Let this be a lesson to any other volunteer, who choses to spend his valuable time doing what GW can't be bothered to do! Don't expect thanks, don't even expect money.....do expect to lose your virginity a second time, prison style, and do expect to have to fight for what you believe in!

This isn't an endeavour for the weak hearted!

I have to agree, but I don't think that... the guy that took 5 years on this would be able to be the one to pull it off. Someone elkse that GW doesn't know, MAYBE, but They know this guy. They know he has an additional interest in the product, and that he could have possibly been in question in making money based on the Blood Bowel( ) product.

I think the issue that the writer really has, from my understanding is that he has an additional Fantasy football game that coule well and good be described as being a copy, then to go and be involved in writing the rules, regardless if they were voluntary or not, that the rules included his ideas for a team, which seem to be available from him.

It took a bit, but if that was what one spends 5 years of thier life on, I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say that someone doesn't know what side of the bread is buttered when it comes to GW and "Fan created material".

They are notorius for these sort of cheese plays in ALL of thier Specialist games ranges.
Necromunda. How did that Ash Waste thing go, again? Worked out really well... Up until the point where they turned the faucet off on the forums.
Gorkamorka. Great support. Don't know what happened to it, but Gubbins didn't last past issue 1.
Cidital Journal. A magazine supposedly loaded with fan created material, yet it is in the cheap bins at your local used book store. They don't even agknowledge it's presence.
How are those Epic Players, by the way? Hows Battlefleet Gothic going? Warmaster?

GW has this guy by the short hairs, because they KNOW him. He actually had the idea that he was contributing, but in reality in working on thier product, he was only helping them in regards to THIER product. They either took advantage of his blind loyalty to that 5 year work, or he was a shill, and didn't see that he was contributing to his own issue when he came out with his own football game. On one hand I sympathyse, but on the other, I feel more sorry to Joe Q Public, who wants to play this game, was another of the countless contributers, and now he is shafted, along with the other well known guy that supposedly worked on it for 5 years.

Seriously, you want to know what he should really do? Go take the cursed documentation to the NFL, make a table top version of a variation on a theme, and make a table top version of... Deathball 2000. Where Football teams are represented as "Road Warrior " versions of real life football clubs and pit themselves to the death.
Add to this the "Fantasy football" stuff that we play in our office pools, add some other additions, as in the NFL2K, Madden, or any other games, and you will have yourself an instant winner.
Who wouldn't like to play the conference series with no holds bared on the table. Lets see how Randy Moss does, running that ball through a machinegun laced minefield, or plays on the pitch located in a nuclear dump site. Add a explosive timer to that ball, see how they like running that downfield. We can add some noted cons like Johnny Strangler- Left tackle with 57 confirmed kills. Payton Manhunter- Noted for his shotgun formation, especially the flichett rounds that he will shoot a lineman in the face with. Or Vick Pittbull- the genetically modified rabid mad Man/Dog.

Blaas, out! I have a BETTER game then stupid Blood Bowel.

We can use NFL teams, World Cup Football, Hockey, Basketball, Rugby, Baseball.
You could easily market this to the fantasy football crowd that plays thier office pools. All we need is to get some of these Leagues to bless off on it, give them a cut, and easy protection from on high.
Variations on a theme...

The thing about is that THIS type of game has no legal legs for GW to mess with this guy over. Think of if this guy would just make a outright basic table top version of "Football". I am truly suprised that someone hasn't done it already. Use some of the intricacies of actual football, such as contracts, free agency, management of teams, real time stuff like on the video game, but on the table.
THEN... you take that to Rugby, the European leagues, the other sports like baseball, or basketball....

the possibilities.... Hmmm...... We haven't even gotten into the DEATHRACE 2000 game, with Indy cars, or NASCAR with machinguns on them...


Muh ha ha ha ha....

It's easier to say this if you/I are not the ones risking our necks and having to go through some messy legal stuff to fight it. It's sometimes better for everyone to just walk away...

I already committed to not buying any more GW products this year... that might get extended...

GalakStarscraper wrote:Okay ... let me put this another way.

GW gave permission for LRB 5.0+ to be posted. There was no NDA issues with that document. So rather than post fake LRB 6.0s that MIGHT make GW legal ask questions at me even though I have NOTHING to do with any of those ... why not ask someone if they have an LRB 5.0+ PDF that you can get. Then take pencil and in 30 seconds you'll have LRB 6.0 (since the changes were that small). You'll have a credits section ... you'll have artwork and Did You Knows. The difference between LRB 5.0+ which was approved for release and fake LRB 6.0s is night and day. And I'd have a much better Christmas week with a lot less stress. There are hundreds of copies of LRB 5.0+ out there ... stick with that. I'm NOT asking you to post LRB 5.0+ to anywhere on the Net. But I'm sure if you need one and asked someone in the community could hook you up (Not me ... remember I had to get rid of all of those documents). But a pencil, 30 seconds and an LRB 5.0+ printout and you'll have an LRB 6.0 that doesn't raise your blood-pressure and doens't cause me any grief.

That's really what I need folks to realize. Any LRB 6.0 has been declared by GW Legal to be a bad thing ... let's run with that if it keeps GW legal off my back and off TFF's back. LRB 5.0+ was a playtest document provided to the community for over a year to get ready for LRB 6.0. It isn't a "bad thing". So still with the good here. Yes rebellion is fun and feels good ... but its not going to accomplish anything real ... and its so darn easy to get a nice version of the new rules with just a few penciled in items ... I just want folks to focus on that.

Tom

Yeah,
So that's what i'm going to do.
I think I have a copy of LRB5.0+ on my work computer, I'm going to edit that and make my own version of LRB6.0 and distribute it to the players in the new Lewisham Bloodbowl league I'm planning for the new year. On the Plus side we will also have the Slann and Underworld Teams. I'll think I'll call it LRB6.0+ and I'll highlight Toms name on the credits page.
?
The real shame here is that by doing this GW have forced loyal Fans to go behind their backs for a proper LRB6... and if I make a Slann team I'll have to make a exception to my personal 'only buy mini's from the proper source' policy. They are a bit ugly but where else does one find frogs playing football? ->Slann Team.

Panic...

I didn't know about LRB 5.0+ (since I don't play BloodBowl myself). That sounds like the perfect solution to everyone's woes...

That sucks. GW should have pulled the Star Players completely!

yeah,
I'm not linking direct to these PDFs because i'm not sure of the legality.

But if one was to go to google and search for 'LRB_5_plus_Experimental2008.pdf'
This is LRB5.0+ it has the animosity rules etc....

After that If I wanted to try a new BBRC + NAF approved team I'd search on google for 'NewTeams_LRB6.pdf'

Panic...

reds8n wrote:..yes.. as version 6 you can, legally, go and download from the GW. With version 5 having been removed from the legal site....I'm sure there are copies floatinga round here and there..but that is those sites problem as/when/if GW legal come and growl at them.

With version 5 still being Big C and etc etc etc standard rules and caveats apply still.

Ok no problem. (see it pays to ask.)

That is really poor form. This has been a shocking year for customer relations from GW.

biggest thing was most of the proposed changes and the updated cost of players.

How about as a form of retaliation you stop buying their blood bowl models, oh wait... That already happened. Shock! It shouldn't come as any surprise that they don't care about the small blood bowl community thats been developing its own rules and proxying its own models for years. They do other things with the license beyond simply lose money on it as a figure game now.

ShumaGorath wrote:How about as a form of retaliation you stop buying their blood bowl models, oh wait... That already happened. Shock! It shouldn't come as any surprise that they don't care about the small blood bowl community thats been developing its own rules and proxying its own models for years. They do other things with the license beyond simply lose money on it as a figure game now.

Every new player buys GW teams to start out.

Most vet players use some form of GW models to create new teams and models.

Lizardmen are easy to make from WFB stuff, as are Skaven, Orcs, and even Norse (use Chaos Marauders).

The alternative stuff is really not that common, especially when tournaments are held at GW stores.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey, Panic. Here are some other Slann alternatives

http://www.impactminiatures.com/index.php?option=rolljordanhfrogs

H.B.M.C. wrote:

reds8n wrote:With version 5 still being Big C and etc etc etc standard rules and caveats apply still.

Oh come off it. Are you trying to tell me that GW (or anyone) releasing (for free) a new or different version of a set of rules somehow makes the previous version illegal distribute (for free)*?

The previous version was always illegal to distribute (at least according to GW, and if you're trying to avoid the attention of their legal department, that's the part that counts).

GW's downloads have a disclaimer that they are provided with permission to save temporarily and print one copy. They have never included an allowance to distribute them. In the last incarnation of their website, the download agreement that you had to click on to download anything specifically forbade distributing any of their documents...


Whether or not that's legally enforcible on stuff being offered for free is anyone's guess. But it's been GW's position for years that their own website should be the only place that people are downloading their stuff from.

A little OT, but are the fansites of the games FFG is putting out going to be the targets of the new year? I wouldn't doubt it; you heard it here first!

yeah,
@skrulnik they are a much better slann sub.

Panic...

insaniak wrote:...GW's downloads have a disclaimer that they are provided with permission to save temporarily and print one copy.

Yeah. That'll hold up in court.

yeah,
The new GW Legal Bird seems to think the skys falling down...
While I think Gw should be protective, they are proper out of order lately... esp. when half their product is clearly based on someone elses IP.

I'd love for them to recieve a C&D from WarnerBros telling them who owns the rights to the giger Alien IP...
A nice smack to the chops like that might make them reconcider their position.

LRB5.0+ is well loved by the community... GW really needs to get a grip on what Legal is doing to the fanbase.
If I was in charge I'd start by sacking that Legal Tart.

Panic...

Panic wrote:I'd love for them to recieve a C&D from WarnerBros telling them who owns the rights to the giger Alien IP...

I have some vague recollection of something like that happening back in the 90's. Didn't go any further.

Ozymandias wrote:Looks like I'll be sticking with LRB5.

I agree with the King of Kings on this one. I look upon GW's works and despair.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

insaniak wrote:...GW's downloads have a disclaimer that they are provided with permission to save temporarily and print one copy.

Yeah. That'll hold up in court.

Wouldn't it? It's the same distribution disclaimer used by a considerable number of businesses online.

Yeah virtually any business that sells art.. That part of GWs legal antics actually makes sense :p

Copyright conditions apply to stuff given away for free.

But it is unrealistic to think GW could stop people swapping a digital file if it is done discretely.

Kilkrazy wrote:Copyright conditions apply to stuff given away for free.

Strong, legally-sound examples: Firefox and Linux.

KK your new Avatar is disturbing.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Strong, legally-sound examples: Firefox and Linux.

'Cept they don't care if you put the .exe file on a disc and give it to your friend.

The new witch in GW legal would.




And that time I did type witch.

Wow. Just....wow.

I'm normally quite sympathetic towards GW, and even I'm having a hard time defending them for this-and I really shouldn't try to defend them at all. What they have done in regards to the credits, never mind the rules theselves, can only be described as a scandal, and they need to be held to account for it somehow.

Truly GW, from the bottom of what little heart I have left, feth you. feth you to hell

Also, anyone looking for the 5th ed rulebook, go onto theBlood bowl video games website, then click on "Media", then "Rulebook".

EDIT: Just noticed Scott-S6's post. So yeah, you can either go to Blood bowl online, or this one. Isn't it nice to have choice

Or maybe its GWs way of telling people to buy blood bowl for computer!

Kirasu wrote:Or maybe its GWs way of telling people to buy blood bowl for computer!

YES!