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OK, I'm gonna try and play devil's advocate in all of this... Heh, I'm the devil's whore!

Anyways, I think it needs to be more of a process of working together rather than everyone suggesting loads of different things, this way it should enable it to remain more consistent and focussed IMHO. For example, at the moment we have people suggesting loads of different things and creating a very rough idea of what you'll want. However, by working together it should help it gradually move on...
I believe that people should still continue to propose their ideas (it would never advance otherwise), however it should be more based off what is already established and not quite to the extent of a whole Legion being designed by one person, eg. Gathering Storm's recent suggestion, no offence. Although the chinese theme is v. good!

Also, it can be quite confusing without someone trying to regularly gather the current ideas (as KMoH/OP) is trying to. For example, I'm really unsure as to what is being intended here, for example, whether there is 2 Legions being designed including a total of 3 extra Primarchs due to 2 primarchs forming a Legion together?! maybe you should just focus on one Legion being created.

However, I do really like the whole modern war/camouflage idea. It's very original and very good.
Also, being separate from both Chaos and the Imperium is also a very good idea, akin to the Soul-Drinkers. This could potentially both cause Chaos and Loyalist splinter groups if 'desired' too.
I also like the idea of a 'weaker' Primarch, its nice. With the proper application of tactics combined with the natural ability of the Space Marines then they could be the uber-powerful group some people desire.

On the other hand, I find the name 'Prophets of Reason' a bit weak IMHO and I don't like the idea of them attacking the Emperor as well to be honest. Maybe they were 'crusading' out in a distant/unexplored region when they were somehow informed of Chaos and its intentions and the future of the Imperium and Emperor's intentions (godhood? Bloodthirsty?) and so went rogue?

Anyways, I apologise if I sound condescending or trying to take over, I'm simply trying to help...

Basically I suggest:
- People suggesting minor things at a time, rather than the ins ans outs of a entire Legion.
- Working together where possible, you know, one step/aspect at a time. By all means go back on it, but baby steps guys!
- That Kraven Master maybe regularly post the current status/ideas of the Legion(s), as he's trying to do at the moment...
- Maybe one Legion rather than both?
- Finally, for the love of all things lovable, don't attempt to make the rules rather than fiction, that's a whole different poop-storm!

As I said though, its just a suggestion and my opinion and I'm simply trying to help and play devils advocate...

Well, once we decide the really large ideas, that'll be the framework for smaller details. The way we've already been going though, it's doubtful we could do just 1 legion now. I also do think that them trying to replace the Emperor is a little silly, but I can't think of them doing anything else in their situation, nor can I think of another way they would be "banished".
I think it'd be kinda cool if the stronger legion could operate almost like the eldar, by sensing where trouble will start before it does, and it fits with the idea of Primarch1 having visions of the future.
Gathering Storm, we've decided not to take an almost complete idea and then build on it, but the oriental theme could be cool for the stronger legion. Is there any kind of chinese mythology or religious significance based around seeing the future?

There is a buddhist sect with beliefs that they could see into the future. I did a bit of googling and this is what I found
"Esoterics
More than a thousand years ago, a new mysterious sect of Buddhism was brought into Japan. Mikkyo , or known as Esoterics.
It was said the priests of Esoterics invoke powerful miracles, called horiki . They could cure diseases, kill a person by curse, fly in the air, see into the future, scare monsters such as oni , fight tremendous monsters with the power of Buddha. The religion was loved by the nobles in the Heian Era. There were two major temples of Esoterics once. But Enryakuji temple in Mt.Hiei , Kyoto, was destroyed by Oda Nobunaga in the Civil War Era, and only Kongobuji temple in Mt. Kouya remains now.
Kukai , aka Kobo Taishi , was the most famous priest of Esoterics. His subsect is called Singonshu. He is the founder of Kongobuji temple.
Priests of Esoterics often disciplined in mountains. Such priests were called Yamabuse . It was said they were good at both horiki and martial arts."

I like the idea of the oriental theme for the stronger legion but I think when designing name we should stick to roman/bible names like the rest of the 40k universe


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ZoomDakkaDakka wrote:Well, once we decide the really large ideas, that'll be the framework for smaller details. The way we've already been going though, it's doubtful we could do just 1 legion now. I also do think that them trying to replace the Emperor is a little silly, but I can't think of them doing anything else in their situation, nor can I think of another way they would be "banished".
I think it'd be kinda cool if the stronger legion could operate almost like the eldar, by sensing where trouble will start before it does, and it fits with the idea of Primarch1 having visions of the future.
Gathering Storm, we've decided not to take an almost complete idea and then build on it, but the oriental theme could be cool for the stronger legion. Is there any kind of chinese mythology or religious significance based around seeing the future?

I actually had an idea of the strongers primarchs mother being an eldar, so if you wanted we could use that idea. First off I want to say thank all you guys for your contributions You're doing a wonderful job! We should do one legion at a time though. Once we have the basics for the weaker legion we can move on to the basics of the other more stronger legion. I was then thinking that we could split into groups and work on each legion, still helping eachother out but allowing more ideas from one group rather than just a massive storm of ideas from everyone! I also love that Buddhist stuff that you have Idget that would be a really cool design for the stronger legion and in a way is almost as awesome as Grey Knights!

Anyway, what we do know so far:
The two primarchs are definately forming this alliance as far as I can tell.
One of the primarchs are quite weak compared to the others.
They are a third party as they dont belong to chaos or the imperium.
One of two legions will be oriental themed.

Also could you please put this in your signature to see if we can attract more people to the forum:
Share some ideas for the missing legions project here! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/310851.page

Thanks,
KmoH

Another piece of Chinese Mythology linking into seeing the future. The reading of tea leaves originated from China as did palm reading.

I think an oriental name would help to make the Legion more 'original' and help keep them more induvidual than the other 18 legions.

@everyone: I'm fine if only the 'Oriental theme idea' from my post is taken, it was the only point I made that I hoped would be used.

Good luck with the project everyone.

Gathering Storm

I think that chinese/foresight idea is very good. Most of the Legions have a theme and that would work well...
It could also provide a good basis for many to head down?

Thanks storm we will probably take things from your idea, possibly not all of it as everyone else cant submit much then. But we will be using them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:I think that chinese/foresight idea is very good. Most of the Legions have a theme and that would work well...
It could also provide a good basis for many to head down?

Sure! Go crazy.

They eat spinach and get powerfists

kravus master of Horus wrote:I actually had an idea of the strongers primarchs mother being an eldar, so if you wanted we could use that idea.

Mother?

The Primarchs were created by the Emperor from his own genetic material, and grown in a lab...

^BY THE EMPRAH!

I wonder if it would be too absurd for one of the missing primarchs to be a woman? I think it would be...controversial to some dakkaites.

@Samus, Read through this thread and you should see the Venus Blades

I think Kravus meant that Primarch1 would've been raised by an eldar. That could be part of the reason as to why he resents the Emperor actually, when the Emperor came to pick him up, he destroyed the Eldar population living there, but kept it a secret from Primarch1, and while envisioning the Emperor's death, he also saw the truth about what had happened to his home.
*gaaaaaasp!*

The two missing legions are the Iron Hearts and the Desert Lions. Though they may not have later received much recognition, in the old fluff they were Legions. Really really old fluff.

Really? Where did you read this, because they've been retconned into chapters now.

ph34r wrote:The two missing legions are the Iron Hearts and the Desert Lions. Though they may not have later received much recognition, in the old fluff they were Legions. Really really old fluff.

If true, (can't recall having seen it before) it would be fluff that pre-dates the current Codex Astartes Legion break-up. So they would have been legions in the same way as all the other Chapters were originally Legions... in a time when Space Marines were little more than regular guys in armour, and Imperial Guardsmen could be promoted to Space Marine-hood.

I apologize if some body mentioned this before but im puting forward the emporers shields

I am yet to put this in thier fluff thread but i thought just as the primarch was about to leave the world for the great crusade the BAM warp storm

My guess is after finding all the other Primarchs in different places in the galaxy: conquering worlds, leading tribes, terrorising cities etc. ...these two landed on planets were the plant life was a bit more exotic shall we say, and when the Emperor found them all they had ever done on their planet was doze around getting stoned all day.

And of course the emperor wouldn't want anyone to know two of his sons are a pair of slackers. So hence the deletion from records.

Ok, in all seriousness.

There are some good ideas but some of them don't fit well with the whole idea of having records expunged and nothing being known about them. Also, amking them into a super legion with 20 second founding chapters does not work well at all. These guys need to have been reduced to under chapter strength. Like under a thousand each maybe even only a few hundred if that. Make them a near extinct chapter.

Reason for them to be expunged: Here's a good one. Both Primarchs ended up on the same feral planet but each ended up on opposite sides of two warring factions. They eventually rule each respective faction never gaining the upper hand.

Enter the Emperor, who finds them and settles their differences. But the hatred for each other lingered deep in their hearts. Early in the crusade they would come to blows again, only this time their newly created legions would follow them in their hatred. The battle was vicious and bloody, so much so that both legions were reduced to nothing. The emperor once again tried to have them reconciliate but neither of them would agree. They essetially chased each other into space trying to gain the upper hand.

The Emperor, seeing the futility of his actions as well as the danger of the Imperium knowing what transpired ordered all records of their existence destroyed (including those who bore witness to these actions).

After the Heresy one would turn to the ruinous powers to gain an edge over his brother. The other would remain uncorrupted. But neither of them cares for the imperium of man, only the destruction of each other is their goal.

Given that only a few hundred of each chapter still exists to this day (due to constant fighting and lack of gene seed replenishment) they fight a guerrila war against each other and anyone that gets in their way.

The last time either Primarch was seen was when they confronted each other near the eye of terror, the colossal battle took them into the warp and were never seen again but their chapters (what's left of them) fight on in their names.

Each chapter fights any way they can and are not above using xeno technology to help them, seeing as how they are ill equipped. It lends credence to the un verified sightings of marines using eldar splinter rifles or vessels being boarded by chaos marines weilding ork choppas arriving via strange cruisers of unknown design.

Etc etc. you get the idea.

Good except there are known chapters who have fought against each other (e.g. SW and DA), turned against the imperium(kind of obvious but: e.g. Sons of Horus) and have had no care for the imperium (e.g. alpha legion) and yet they still haven't been removed from records. What makes these two chapters in your theory any different?


In my mind it can't have been something as simple as misbehaviour. Since it would have to have been worse than the Horus Heresy (considering none of the traitor legions have had their records removed).

It seems a lot of people have some ideas on the matter, and KMoH's last recollection seems good for a start, especially the idea of a legion with weaker geneseed that would have to resort to subtler tactics...

I don't see why we would change from that, but I had two other minor theories lurking in my mind:

- Theory 1 : one of the missing Primarch was genetically extremely close to the Emperor, much like a twin. His Legion was made of the strongest Space Marines, but also had the fewest numbers due to the limited amount of genetic materials taken from the Emperor himself. Sadly, the Primarch somehow felt neglected as a "lowly" Legion leader and turned against the Emperor in a jealous attempt to overthrow his creator (a kind of "Oedipus complex" ). Of course the Emperor wins, slays his "twin-son" and turns the still loyal Legion into his personal bodyguard, the mighty Adeptus Custodes.

- Theory 2 : the WH40k setting is the Galaxy, which is tremendously huge, but we know it's not the only one in the whole Universe. The Milky Way is but one of many more galaxies in our universe. Alos, in some Tyranid fluff, it is said that Tyranids most probably came from another galaxy... Maybe during the Age of Technology, Mankind most probably tried to imagine what laid in those galaxies...
So we could think that maybe, the Emperor decided to "sacrifice" one of his Legion to go further than the edge of the galaxy in an attempt to reach the closest one. He knew he was sending them to their deaths in the empty void of space, but had to do it nevertheless.
Stricken with shame and disgust at his death-sentence-like order to his "sons", he could no longer bear waiting for any information about them, and staring at their names, emblems, portraits & statues of his missing Legion, constantly reminded him of the glory they wouldn't earn in the Great Crusade.
So, he selfishly and guiltily decided that all records from the selfless Legion were to be deleted, and no mention whatsoever of them should ever be pronounced.

I know this goes into other directions, but I think they could make sense... Or do they?

Yggdrasil wrote:I know this goes into other directions, but I think they could make sense... Or do they?

The second one would definitely need work. "He knew <it was an absolutely stupid idea> but had to do it nevertheless," translates to "The author needed conflict, so he was handed an Idiot Ball and did it anyway." This action is only justified if the Emperor didn't think it was a pointless suicide mission into the void of intergalactic space.

@Yggdrasil: I do really like your second idea for their deletion, I have an old old White Dwarf with a reader writing White Dwarf's Dirty Steve to ask if the Fire Hawks were one of the missing legions. He obviously said no, but raised another important point:
Horus and his Legions TURNED AGAINST the Imperium of Man, slaughtered billions, nearly killed the Emperor and did irreparable damage to countless worlds, but they are still in Imperial Records.

The Two "Missing" Legions are expunged from records entirely. So therefore they either,
A) They did something FAR worse than the above
B) Were expunged for some other reason (a la Yggdrasil)
C) Were long lost before the record were written
or
D) Could have been an attempt to cover up the first heretics. The heresy wasn't deleted because it was too BIG to cover up and wanted to be used as an example.

Another important detail to consider is how they are spoken of in the Horus Heresy books. Malcador referred to them as "Lost to us forever". This could be literally lost, or figuratively lost, like a "You are no brother of mine!" scenario.

Also, in False Gods, when horus sees the growth tanks of one of the two lost primarchs,
"He stopped by the tank with XI stenciled upon it and placed his hand against the smooth steel, feeling the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass."

Clearly the Primarchs knew the fate of their brothers, and it was a very sore subject for them, and a subject of great sadness.

I do agree with Alex that Yggdrasil's idea needs work, however the Emperor, as people seem to forget, was a man. Not a god. Despite his apparent prescience, he could not foresee his sons' treachery, and he grew openly hostile toward Magnus for suggesting his sons would turn against him.

It is entirely possible that after finding his first sons, in his hubris, he sent one of them beyond the known galaxy, and the "Warp Void" of the Tyranids consumed them. The Tyranids are an extra-galactic threat, the Emperor would not know what they were, only feel a vast, gaping emptiness consuming the warp-signature of his beloved sons. This also explains how the Tyranids became attuned to the Astronomican and are therefore drawn to this galaxy.

I don't know if this helps at all for creating fluff for a legion, but if we do decide to go this route, there obviously was a reason the Emperor would pick this primarch instead of, say Perturabo, who's ability to destroy enemy strongholds would be invaluable. So they could have been extremely intuitive when it comes to understanding xenos. Surprisingly, all of the Primarchs thus far have exclusively lived on human worlds. It is entirely possible that, say Eldar or Impreiex, or even something like the Tau before their empire(and of course this would prompt their near-destruction by the Imperium, if my timeline is correct), therefore, this primarch could have had some limited prescience, a "knack" or empathic bond with xenos, and therefore could unmake them easier

AlexHolker wrote:

Yggdrasil wrote:I know this goes into other directions, but I think they could make sense... Or do they?

The second one would definitely need work. "He knew <it was an absolutely stupid idea> but had to do it nevertheless," translates to "The author needed conflict, so he was handed an Idiot Ball and did it anyway." This action is only justified if the Emperor didn't think it was a pointless suicide mission into the void of intergalactic space.

Yes of course, that's what I meant... He knew he had to send them, for the future of mankind, to go after a lost ship that had previously tried to quit the galaxy during the Age of Technology, or any other reason...

And, it needs some work for sure

Archmagos_Amadeus wrote:Horus and his Legions TURNED AGAINST the Imperium of Man, slaughtered billions, nearly killed the Emperor and did irreparable damage to countless worlds, but they are still in Imperial Records.

The Two "Missing" Legions are expunged from records entirely. So therefore they either,
A) They did something FAR worse than the above
B) Were expunged for some other reason (a la Yggdrasil)
C) Were long lost before the record were written
or
D) Could have been an attempt to cover up the first heretics. The heresy wasn't deleted because it was too BIG to cover up and wanted to be used as an example.

"C" seems out of the way, since somebody pointed out that the statues of the lost Primarch were removed. So there were records of them and had been found, since they even had statues!!!

Archmagos_Amadeus wrote:
Another important detail to consider is how they are spoken of in the Horus Heresy books. Malcador referred to them as "Lost to us forever". This could be literally lost, or figuratively lost, like a "You are no brother of mine!" scenario.

Also, in False Gods, when horus sees the growth tanks of one of the two lost primarchs,
"He stopped by the tank with XI stenciled upon it and placed his hand against the smooth steel, feeling the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass."

Clearly the Primarchs knew the fate of their brothers, and it was a very sore subject for them, and a subject of great sadness.

Thanks for the quotes, I was too lazy to go for them... Horus' sadness during his warp-dream in False Gods & Malcador's words are indeed interesting, and were definitely written for us fluff-lovers to speculate & debate over them!!!

Archmagos_Amadeus wrote:
I do agree with Alex that Yggdrasil's idea needs work, however the Emperor, as people seem to forget, was a man. Not a god. Despite his apparent prescience, he could not foresee his sons' treachery, and he grew openly hostile toward Magnus for suggesting his sons would turn against him.

QFT.

Archmagos_Amadeus wrote:
It is entirely possible that after finding his first sons, in his hubris, he sent one of them beyond the known galaxy, and the "Warp Void" of the Tyranids consumed them. The Tyranids are an extra-galactic threat, the Emperor would not know what they were, only feel a vast, gaping emptiness consuming the warp-signature of his beloved sons. This also explains how the Tyranids became attuned to the Astronomican and are therefore drawn to this galaxy.

This would sure make sense!!! So the Emperor was the traitor who unleashed the Great Devourer upon the Imperium of Man!!! Death to the False Emperor!!!! Erh, sorry, I was a bit... carried away

Archmagos_Amadeus wrote:
I don't know if this helps at all for creating fluff for a legion, but if we do decide to go this route, there obviously was a reason the Emperor would pick this primarch instead of, say Perturabo, who's ability to destroy enemy strongholds would be invaluable. So they could have been extremely intuitive when it comes to understanding xenos. Surprisingly, all of the Primarchs thus far have exclusively lived on human worlds. It is entirely possible that, say Eldar or Impreiex, or even something like the Tau before their empire(and of course this would prompt their near-destruction by the Imperium, if my timeline is correct), therefore, this primarch could have had some limited prescience, a "knack" or empathic bond with xenos, and therefore could unmake them easier

Or maybe the Squats?!? Or the Zoats?!? Or the Slanns?!?
That's a nice & original idea anyway... The Eldar could be viable, for their ways are sometimes an enigma to men... As for the Tau... I don't think they were nearly-destroyed before the warp storms came to isolate their sector, but more recorded as a minor autochtonous species that would easily be wiped out by the first Imperial settlers, IIRC...

I quite like the idea of the Eldar getting involved. I mean if one of the Biel-Tan Eldar Farseers was able to foresee the death and destruction Angron would cause if he wasn't stopped maybe the Farseers of some other Craftworld/Maiden World foresaw that one of the Primarchs could be manipulated for their gain.

Something like the XIth Primarch landed on an Eldar Maiden World and instead of being taken in by the humans (shunned by them, instead of reveered/feared) was taken in by the leader of the Maiden World Eldar, taught the language, ways, traditions and history of the Eldar.

When the Emperor finally finds his lost son he finds out that not only does he fraternise with the filthy Xenos, he is now their leader.

OR, the Eldar let him go to the Emperor (but have secretly made him into a sleeper agent), allow themselves to be attacked and forced off of the Maiden World in order to allow their 'inside man' to be accepted by his biological father. 10 years later, with the Primarch in a trusted position (now very close to the Emperor) the sleeper agent part of him activates and he attempts to kill the Emperor. Of course, with out the help of chaos, the Primarch is no match for his father and is slain outright. The chapter is then purged and deleted because of fears that the entire Legion may be sleeper agents bent on killing the 'Big E.

This act of betrayal shakes the Emperor and he now believs that because all of his sons were raised on human worlds (to an extent) that they can be trusted and that the Alien should be feared even more.

Gathering Storm wrote: This act of betrayal shakes the Emperor and he now believs that because all of his sons were raised on human worlds (to an extent) that they can be trusted and that the Alien should be feared even more.

This is indeed a possibility, but the fact remains that there were statues of the Primarch. He clearly had admiration for his son, and it was the Chaplains like Erebus who spread the "Abor the Xenos, hate the xenos" creed. Also, if the Emperor was truly betrayed, this would have serious reprocussions throughout the Imperium.

Since his son was a sleeper agent for the Eldar, but so outwardly loyal and close to him, he would have reached out to his sons more, gotten to know them better,(after all, keep you friends close and your enemies closer), he would not have allowed them to act more or less autonomously, he would have personally supervised their actions and taken an active role in the Crusade. This proactivity would have made it impossible for Horus to claim that the Emperor was "abandoning them" and made the heresy (based around the fact that he was the dominant personality in the void left by the emperor's leaving) nearly impossible to execute, if for no other reason than the Emperor being on his guard. At the absolute least he would not have so callously disregarded Magnus' warnings.

Also, Horus would not have thought of "The glories that would never be won" and everyone reflecting sadness at the thought of the Primarch's disappearance if there was any thought of heresy. This also would have cause the complete extermination of all the Primarch's Astartes, and he would most certainly would NOT have expunged all records, as he did with the other primarchs.

I like the, "Emperor's error led to their premature doom" angle personally.

Archmagos_Amadeus wrote: it was the Chaplains like Erebus who spread the "Abor the Xenos, hate the xenos" creed. .

But it was pretty much in the doctrine of the great crusade, the strict opposition towards Xenos. Alien weapons were outlawed. Worlds where aliens coexisted with humans were denied 'peacefull' surrenders etc.

Guys remember that this is dedicated to making up new chapters. This does not include speculation (unless related), submitting of single-person ideas in their entirety or submitting that we drastically change what has already been reached as a concensus.
The adeptus custodes were not just super space marines, they are individual investments by the Terran Lords, with their methods of creation differeing significantly from that of Space Marines.
Crantor, we've basically gotten the reason as to why they've been expunged, they don't need to have been reduced to below a thousand. Keep in mind that the chapters destroyed during the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre (or something like that) were reduced to below a thousand marines. The 2 primarchs constantly fighting each other would also not have warranted being expunged from the records, as that would've basically been what Horus had done.
And don't forget that the part where Horus sees the broken pod was in a vision produced by the chaos gods.

ZoomDakkaDakka wrote:Guys remember that this is dedicated to making up new chapters. This does not include speculation (unless related), submitting of single-person ideas in their entirety or submitting that we drastically change what has already been reached as a concensus.

I agree, I'm not entirely sure what the consensus is right now though, so I suppose we've gotten more than a little OT.

ZoomDakkaDakka wrote: And don't forget that the part where Horus sees the broken pod was in a vision produced by the chaos gods.

True, but it is kind of hinted that what he saw was the actual past, and what he feels when he sees the infant primarchs could not have been faked. Also, based off of what Malcador and Dorn says, it certainly does not seem they held any contempt for their lost brothers, merely pity.

But back to our original topic, what angle will we use for this second lost legion? Are they gone forever? Are they split into new chapters? Why were they expunged? Why don't the successor chapters(if any) know their existence? etc.

I think Archmagos_Amadeus idea in part is pretty good. The idea that the Emperor betrayed or did something to the primarchs. Not too keen on AAs particular idea of them being sent to another galaxy. But it would fit that to keep his own integrity and loyalty to his other primarch sons and the greater imperium in general, he would cover up something which besmirched his own reputation. After all there is nothing in the fluff which says those who knew the missing primarchs were told or knew why they were removed from records.

All we know for sure is that they are missing, and that those who knew of their existence laments their fate. I'm not sure if it was a coverup per se, but Yggdrasil suggesting that the Emperor removed their records out of sorrow could mesh with what whatwhat is saying(try saying that ten times fast). Perhaps he erased them because he knew that it was mankinds collective faith in him and his sheer force of personality that holds the Imperium together, and that his decision led to a whole legions' doom could have made him, regretfully cover up the entire affair.

This also could be one of the first seeds of Horus' discontent, that could allow him to believe the Emperor is abandoning his sons.