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We kind of decided that both legions were sent on a secret penance mission by the Emperor. I guess he would've lied to the other Primarchs, which would've led to them feeling sorrow rather than contempt. Though this means that the coup would've been performed in secret.

It must have either been in secret or have been something no one told would ever wish to speak of again. As expunging something from records entirely would not be a simple task and telling the reason why to others would not be helpfull.

True. Although this makes sense, it still begs the question,

"Why delete the records?"

Ok. Lets start with the idea that to contain it as a secret and to delete any record of their existence so easily the Primarch’s, and their legion’s, fate must have been known to very few. Or it must have been something no one who did know would ever wish to speak of or even mention again.

Considering how hard it is to conceive of something no one would ever desire to speak of or even mention ever again, it would seem about right that to contain the truth of what happened it must have been only known to the emperor or at most a very select and extremely well trusted few.

Does that include the primarchs? That’s an extremely high level of trust, considering the Emperor had issues with many Primarchs right from the first time they met (Angron for example) it stands to reason the level of trust required is not present in all of them. Therefore knowing that some primarchs he could not trust it is likely considering the importance of the information (we know it must have been important for it to be deleted) that to be safe all Primarchs may have been excluded from this information.
Which would leave only malcador? Could he be trusted with this information.

If it came down to the Emperor, that he is the only one who knew of their fate, it limits the possibilities of what could have happened to them extremely. For example it couldn’t have been a huge or even slightly large event as that would leave witnesses. Or if it did, they are all now dead or unable to convey what happened (xenos perhaps?).

So that leaves us with what? The main idea that survives here is the Emperor himself did something he would want to keep secret. As since he is the only one to know about it, it stands to all likelihood that he himself is directly involved in the issue. If he deleted the records himself, being the only one who knew of the primarchs fate. He must have come to that decision all on his own accord, with information he only gained from his own accounts or from those who are now dead. Or there could have been others who did know, who the Emperor killed or had killed, again indicating that the primarch's fate somehow involves him.

Considering he deleted this information and wanted no one to know about it it means the information is either damning of him or in some way harmful to the imperium or both. Following the above sequence, those are the only options.

So shall we assume it's an Imperial coverup perpetrated by the Emperor?

insaniak wrote:

ph34r wrote:The two missing legions are the Iron Hearts and the Desert Lions. Though they may not have later received much recognition, in the old fluff they were Legions. Really really old fluff.

If true, (can't recall having seen it before) it would be fluff that pre-dates the current Codex Astartes Legion break-up. So they would have been legions in the same way as all the other Chapters were originally Legions... in a time when Space Marines were little more than regular guys in armour, and Imperial Guardsmen could be promoted to Space Marine-hood.

Yeah, the fluff is so old that is should basically be ignored, but they are the two old distinct space marine organizations that were referred to as legions and never mentioned again. In my mind, though it is definitely not official, they are the two missing Legions. Why they are missing is still a total mystery to me.

ph34r wrote:

insaniak wrote:

ph34r wrote:The two missing legions are the Iron Hearts and the Desert Lions. Though they may not have later received much recognition, in the old fluff they were Legions. Really really old fluff.

If true, (can't recall having seen it before) it would be fluff that pre-dates the current Codex Astartes Legion break-up. So they would have been legions in the same way as all the other Chapters were originally Legions... in a time when Space Marines were little more than regular guys in armour, and Imperial Guardsmen could be promoted to Space Marine-hood.

Yeah, the fluff is so old that is should basically be ignored, but they are the two old distinct space marine organizations that were referred to as legions and never mentioned again. In my mind, though it is definitely not official, they are the two missing Legions. Why they are missing is still a total mystery to me.

Do you recall where they were referred to as Legions? As far as I can tell the Desert Lions were only mentioned in Chapter Approved: Imperial Robots, which (in the reprint in the 40K Compendium at least) describes them as "the Desert Lions Chapter", while the Iron Hearts (who appeared in Hell in a Bottle, part of Into the Maelstrom and Let the Galaxy Burn) are similarly described.
Of course, Hell in a Bottle also makes mention of "Primarch Rubinek", but it seems quite a stretch that GW would have revealed one of the missing Primarchs in a throwaway sentence in a Black Library short story. It seems more likely to me that "Primarch" is perhaps a title the Iron Hearts give their Chapter Master, although I think the most likely case is that the author simply made a mistake.

IMHO I would like the second legion to have the Tyranid idea. But instead they return from the other galaxy stronger from facing creatures that man couldnt even dream possible. In an angry frenzy the primarch and his legion are so disgusted with what their own father had done to them by sending them there they vow never to go back to their holy emporer and focus on building their legion and home world outside known space where they had came from, only coming back to the milky way to fight with their noble brothers of the other lost legion.

I'm not terribly fond of the 'Tyranid Idea', I definately favour the 'Emperor's Error' idea put across by whatwhat and Archmagos_Amadeus.

It could have even been a sort of 'Tactical Error' where the Legion became lost in the Warp or (something just hit me) the Primarch of one of the Legions actually died. The reason this would be so significant is that mortal men and Astartes revered the Primarchs as God-like. The death of one would led to the massess knowing that ultimately the Primarchs 'were only human' and not the 'awe inspiring Gods' they were made out to be. I know that during the Heresy Ferrus Manus and Sanguinus were killed but they were killed by fellow Primarchs and that later Dorn would fall but this was after the Heresy. Pre-Heresy, the death of a 'God' would shake the fledgling Imperium and the Emperor himself. Of course, the Emperor would have to cover it up and silence the chapter in order to keep the 'Death of a God' secret from the public. It would be better to tell some of the truth to his sons (that it was a tragedy) but with-hold information on what happened, OR maybe even the Primarchs were told of this and that is why the see it as a tradgedy. The reason to remove the Statues of them would be to in effect try and 'retcon' them from living memory and with the Emperor being the Emperor no-one would say anything if the Statues were removed (fearing for their own life or something).

And maybe the reason for the other Legion (and Primarch) being stricken from the records was because he was the only Primarch that opposed the Emprah' witholding the truth from his people.

There, an idea supporting 'Emperor's Error (/fault)'.

Æscholt wrote:

ph34r wrote:Yeah, the fluff is so old that is should basically be ignored, but they are the two old distinct space marine organizations that were referred to as legions and never mentioned again. In my mind, though it is definitely not official, they are the two missing Legions. Why they are missing is still a total mystery to me.

Do you recall where they were referred to as Legions? As far as I can tell the Desert Lions were only mentioned in Chapter Approved: Imperial Robots, which (in the reprint in the 40K Compendium at least) describes them as "the Desert Lions Chapter", while the Iron Hearts (who appeared in Hell in a Bottle, part of Into the Maelstrom and Let the Galaxy Burn) are similarly described.
Of course, Hell in a Bottle also makes mention of "Primarch Rubinek", but it seems quite a stretch that GW would have revealed one of the missing Primarchs in a throwaway sentence in a Black Library short story. It seems more likely to me that "Primarch" is perhaps a title the Iron Hearts give their Chapter Master, although I think the most likely case is that the author simply made a mistake.

Desert Lions might be a bit less possibly correct, I just remember them fighting to retake Istvaan V with Legio Cybernetica members, which I took to mean Heresy-era. They could be a successor chapter, though.
Iron Hearts if taken at face value are a Legion, but of course it is almost certainly just a writer error.

edit: scrap that. Thinking of something entirely different.

Gathering Storm wrote:It could have even been a sort of 'Tactical Error' where the Legion became lost in the Warp or (something just hit me) the Primarch of one of the Legions actually died.

There certainly is a precedent for chapters being lost in the warp (i.e. The Fire Hawks), and the possibility that a primarch DIED, either in conflict, on their "home" world, or (to whet your appetites) a genetic flaw. The Primarch Project was little more than an experiment when it began. If it was perfect, there would not be the gene-seed degradation we see today, and there would not be traits like the salamanders' melanin defect, or the space wolves' wulfen. So what if one of these primarchs was a total failure? Its organs flawed, muscles underdeveloped, brittle bones etc, the Emperor could have found the primach, seen its suffering, and suddenly realized that an entire LEGION of His astates was a ticking time bomb, cursed by their own seed.

Then again, the Emperor is "perfect"

As long as we capture that it was some failing of the Almighty Immortal God Emperor of Mankind(beloved by all oc), I think the sky is the limit.

Nice theory again... Also remember that at the time, the Emperor was "just" the leader of Mankind, not yet the "God-Emperor"...

Now that's another intriguing theory Archmagos_Amadeus.

It would be a pretty grimdark reason to purge a chapter and it fully fits in with the idea of there being a 'weaker' Legion. Having a bunch of 'useless' marines would completely ruin the astartes reputation of being the 'uniters and protectors of Humanity'.

Or what if at first the gene-seed seemed stable BUT, in a few short years (maybe 5-10) (or after some good ole healthy exposure to the Warp) massive flaws in the geneseed started to occur as you suggested. That way there is also a reason for there being a statue of the Primarch previously.

Yes for the weaker legion it would work out, obviously you cant make them super weak but basically 7 feet tall IG

kravus master of Horus wrote:Yes for the weaker legion it would work out, obviously you cant make them super weak but basically 7 feet tall IG

Yeah, but why have that when you could have horrific defects of Grimdark proportions...

For the 'Weaker Legion' if feel that the Primarch needs to have died. Otherwise a reason for deleting them from the records is doesn't seem justified. Also, since they are weaker, an obvious sign of their weakness would be that their Primarch was also 'Weak' and was killed.

P.S.-How about updating your first post to include more of the contributers? Please? (Archmagos_Amadeus,whatwhat and others?)

Let me tell you what we have for my legion:
Angels of Salvation were the 2nd, of the original twenty, Space Marine Legions.Their primarch is Constantine.Legion strenth is 100 000 marines.Angels of Salvation are split into brotherhoods, each brotherhood has its own painting scheme
Here is Angels of Salvation Tactical marine:

What if Constantine and Allister Khaine led 101 expedition together during great crusade thats why they have relations as brothers have.

So what do we know for definate?

@Gathering Storm: Thanks! I've been rereading my horus heresy books lately, and it seems like the entire thing feel apart when the illusion and glamour of the Great Crusade was revealed, so it wouldn't be too far out there to assume that the Emprah would want a massive cover up.

@kravus master of horus: Do you mean what has GW established for sure? Or what conclusion have we come to?

Personally, of all the theories so far, (And I'm sorry, I know its really conceited of me to say this) my personal favorite is the one involving the Tyranids. I really like the direction that we seem to be heading in; that is was partially(or wholly) the Emperor's fault that one of the legions no longer exists, and I really feel like it would mesh well with the established fluff and stories we've heard about the Primarchs thus far.

As far as my other idea goes, are we combining it with the "Legions at War" concept? Is that one idea that we have set in stone? I'm sorry if I seem a step or two behind, I was a latecomer to this thread

It also really shows the emperors humanity because he made a mistake that way. Plus i like Constines legion...

Perhaps we could use the name for the legion and primarch, if not the fluff. That is, if the mighty son of the Emprah Constantine doesn't mind and noone here objects.

The only issue I can forsee is that there are already two "Angel" named legions: Blood and Dark.

I agree. Kinda tired of the angel thing.
If it was Knights of something i would be fine with it.

The thing is about the emperor mistake idea, is it still doesn't explain why the records were deleted. I mean why didn't he just fabricate a story about what happened to them? Surely leaving it blank provokes more questions of the emperor not less. And why would the chapter have to be removed from history because of his mistake?

I wonder if this happened.
The emperor stares at a screen. Starts scrolling threw the InterEmp.
"So uhh hmmm i wonder if my wikipage on the legions is up.."
He clicks it goes to the wikipage.
"Thank god i saved all the info on here for all the legions. Instead of giving it to my loyal subjects hehehe."
Selects the 2nd and 11th legions. "Ahh i love these two." His finger slips onto the delete button.
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
*File deleted.*
"FUFUFUFUFUFUFUFUFUFUFUFUFUFU."
Macalodor Walks in. "My lord what happened?"
Emperor "I deleted two legions."
Macalodor: "Really that sucks. told yer"
If someone can rewrite this That would make me so happy.

Yggdrasil wrote:- Theory 2 : the WH40k setting is the Galaxy, which is tremendously huge, but we know it's not the only one in the whole Universe. The Milky Way is but one of many more galaxies in our universe. Alos, in some Tyranid fluff, it is said that Tyranids most probably came from another galaxy... Maybe during the Age of Technology, Mankind most probably tried to imagine what laid in those galaxies...
So we could think that maybe, the Emperor decided to "sacrifice" one of his Legion to go further than the edge of the galaxy in an attempt to reach the closest one. He knew he was sending them to their deaths in the empty void of space, but had to do it nevertheless.
Stricken with shame and disgust at his death-sentence-like order to his "sons", he could no longer bear waiting for any information about them, and staring at their names, emblems, portraits & statues of his missing Legion, constantly reminded him of the glory they wouldn't earn in the Great Crusade.
So, he selfishly and guiltily decided that all records from the selfless Legion were to be deleted, and no mention whatsoever of them should ever be pronounced.

This is the theory thus far that makes the most sense as to why they were expunged entirely. I appreciate that we are taking up the "The Emperor is still only a man" angle as far as this goes. I assumed anyway that we were looking into this angle, idk if it is set in stone

I'm sorry, but are people still putting forward their self-created legions? This is...harrumph. I'd just like to take this moment to remind people to actually read all the already proposed (and decided on) ideas.

I meant what we've decided so far, no ideas about the second legion yet although because everyone agrees its going to end up as an oriental style legion lost in a terrible galxy that come back and claim revenge against the emporer which is what i'd personally like to see.

Well, I'm given to understand that we've come to these conclusions:

1) The Emperor was involved in the fate of at least one of the Legions

2) He deleted the records for either a more personal reason, or for the benefit of the Imperium as a whole

3) The other Primarchs may or may not know the entire story

What we are debating is

What happened?

The most popular opinions are:

There was a genetic flaw in the geneseed, so the Emperor either mercy killed them, or sent them on a suicide mission

They turned against the Emperor

They turned against Horus

They went beyond the Galaxy and were consumed by the tyranids

Or some combination thereof. I actually wrote a story today based on principles 1 and 2 in History class out of boredom. I'll post it if anyone is interested, it's not Graham McNeil, Dan Abnett or Dark Lord Seanron by any means but it's pretty decent.

Its probably better than mine
But anyway i think it is a mix.

A mix of which ones?