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Brother SRM wrote:Comparing things in a vacuum doesn't generally work well.

Normally I fully agree. However, you can take nearly every situation of GK and other armies, and the GK can just flat out do it better.
Most armies have bad-matchups. In the case of GK -- these bad matchup's are Mech'dar or IG gunline. When other armies face a 'bad matchup', it means they have a poor chance of winning. GK has a 50/50 chance of winning on a bad matchup, and a greater chance of winning on a good matchup. (ie, any army not designed to kill GK)

GK is overpowered today. That will probably be fixed when 6th edition is released later this year. GW is thinking long term, and balancing for the upcoming 3 years and not just today.

Yeah - most people seem to do it because it's cheap, small elite army, that is basically better-marines.

I can see the appeal, and personally it's one of the 2 imperial armies I would ever consider, albeit not in the normal vein.
(The first being a Space Wolves Drop Pod army with 8-12 pods, the second being a Coteaz + 40 monkeys GK army.)

That said, I managed to beat a GK list full of psycannons and razorbacks at 2k with my tau... sooo make of that what you will.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

wormark wrote:.

Although not a perfect solution, rokkits. I realize they're not that great, but at least the Paladins die on every save roll of a 1. What in the Ork Codex is AP2? There's a plasma cannon equivalent on Dreadnoughts if I recall correctly.

Kustom Mega Blastas. They're Strength 8 AP2, but it's only Assault 1, no blast, and with an Ork's Ballistic's skill, well, you're hitting 1/3 of the time. That said, probably one of the best Termie hunters the Orks can get are squads of Burnas with 3 'free' KMB meks- you can try to get a lucky kill from range with the KMBs, template if you're close enough with a couple of the Burnas, and assault with Power Weapons for the rest of them, using the Meks and Burnas that Burned as the 'throw-away' wounds when the Knights inevitably attack first, even though you charged them.

Alternatively, if they don't have Powerfists or Thunderhammers (though they always do) KMB toting Killa Kanz- AV11 Walkers with a DCCW- they're cheap and they come in Squads.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Joey wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Joey wrote:
So, despite costing one point less than the howling banshee, the DCA has an invulnerable saving throw, an extra attack, at a higher strength and higher weapon skill.
Warrior acolytes with bolguns, same price as IG but with higher leadership and boltguns.
And that's just two of the henchmen. I could break down unit by unit how GK is more powerful than other books but I cba.
In short.
Grey Knights are over-powered

Eldar are an old codex. Their prices aren't in line with current pricing. Death Cult Assassins are also supposedly in one unit of the army, but of course Coteaz changes that.
Warrior acolytes with boltguns who can't get orders, which is the most important part of IG infantry squads.

Comparing things in a vacuum doesn't generally work well.

Yeah, and the GK warrior acolyte can have a storm sheild in the squad to soak up wounds.
Point for point GK offers more power than most codexes.

Just for fun: Which of the two assault units you compared has the ability to assault into cover without becoming I1?

Bahahahahahaha.
You seriously think the guardsmen's ability to assault through cover without getting I1 balances it?
People who play OP armies always say crap like that.

Joey wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Joey wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Joey wrote:
So, despite costing one point less than the howling banshee, the DCA has an invulnerable saving throw, an extra attack, at a higher strength and higher weapon skill.
Warrior acolytes with bolguns, same price as IG but with higher leadership and boltguns.
And that's just two of the henchmen. I could break down unit by unit how GK is more powerful than other books but I cba.
In short.
Grey Knights are over-powered

Eldar are an old codex. Their prices aren't in line with current pricing. Death Cult Assassins are also supposedly in one unit of the army, but of course Coteaz changes that.
Warrior acolytes with boltguns who can't get orders, which is the most important part of IG infantry squads.

Comparing things in a vacuum doesn't generally work well.

Yeah, and the GK warrior acolyte can have a storm sheild in the squad to soak up wounds.
Point for point GK offers more power than most codexes.

Just for fun: Which of the two assault units you compared has the ability to assault into cover without becoming I1?

Bahahahahahaha.
You seriously think the guardsmen's ability to assault through cover without getting I1 balances it?
People who play OP armies always say crap like that.

Firstly, I play Black Templars, so don't you come yelling with your "Oh you just play OP armies" BS. I didn't go for personal attacks, so I'd friggin' well expect you to not either.

Secondly, Howling Banshees have Banshee Masks, which works like grenades against terrain. Meanwhile, DCA don't. Oh look, I had a fair point, who would've thought?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Joey wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Joey wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Joey wrote:
So, despite costing one point less than the howling banshee, the DCA has an invulnerable saving throw, an extra attack, at a higher strength and higher weapon skill.
Warrior acolytes with bolguns, same price as IG but with higher leadership and boltguns.
And that's just two of the henchmen. I could break down unit by unit how GK is more powerful than other books but I cba.
In short.
Grey Knights are over-powered

Eldar are an old codex. Their prices aren't in line with current pricing. Death Cult Assassins are also supposedly in one unit of the army, but of course Coteaz changes that.
Warrior acolytes with boltguns who can't get orders, which is the most important part of IG infantry squads.

Comparing things in a vacuum doesn't generally work well.

Yeah, and the GK warrior acolyte can have a storm sheild in the squad to soak up wounds.
Point for point GK offers more power than most codexes.

Just for fun: Which of the two assault units you compared has the ability to assault into cover without becoming I1?

Bahahahahahaha.
You seriously think the guardsmen's ability to assault through cover without getting I1 balances it?
People who play OP armies always say crap like that.

Firstly, I play Black Templars, so don't you come yelling with your "Oh you just play OP armies" BS. I didn't go for personal attacks, so I'd friggin' well expect you to not either.

Secondly, Howling Banshees have Banshee Masks, which works like grenades against terrain. Meanwhile, DCA don't. Oh look, I had a fair point, who would've thought?

I wonder how many eldar players would sacrifice offensive grenades for FNP and Furious Charge? Plus +1S, +1T and power armour on a model that's only 4 points more.
Yeah.
I don't see why some people are so reluctant to acknowledge that some armies are over-powered. Not unbeatable, since no one is claiming that. But point-for-point they deliver more damage than many older armies, and that's a fact.

I've had a foot Ork army full of Shoota boyz, Tankbustas and Flash Gits go up against Foot Grey Knights. The Knights put out more firepower, at a longer range, with higher average strength, with a better BS than my Orks, from fewer models that were harder to kill. I'd understand it if they had lower range, or if fewer of them had decent-range guns, or if they were lower AP than they were. I'm not expecting them to shoot worse, but the fact of the matter is, they had greater volume of fire, greater accuracy, pretty much better everything shooting than the Orks at equal points. They also had better armour, better assault (faster) and just as many attacks. At the same time.

That's what's not fair. If it was one or the other, then fine. But both?

Joey wrote:
I wonder how many eldar players would sacrifice offensive grenades for FNP and Furious Charge? Plus +1S, +1T and power armour on a model that's only 4 points more.
Yeah.
I don't see why some people are so reluctant to acknowledge that some armies are over-powered. Not unbeatable, since no one is claiming that. But point-for-point they deliver more damage than many older armies, and that's a fact.

...what does Power Armour, T4 and FNP have to do with DCAs? They can have FNP if they're in an SoB army, which isn't what we're discussing. Similarly, how many Blood Angels players do you think would swap any of their psychic powers for Fortune?

Also, of course 5th edition armies are more powerful than Eldar; they're a 4th edition Codex, not made for 5th. They also dominated the meta in 4th with their unkillable Falcons.

Offtopic: but how long did it take for people to complain about IG? I was still new but I didn't see any strong complaints until 'Leaf blower' won (which wasn't even the strongest IG build possible). It seems that PA is quick to be picked apart and whined about but everyone else slips under the radar until they win.

I wish gk had vendettas, lrbt, and such.. trade a vendetta for a psyfleman anyday..

Anvildude wrote:I've had a foot Ork army full of Shoota boyz, Tankbustas and Flash Gits go up against Foot Grey Knights. The Knights put out more firepower, at a longer range, with higher average strength, with a better BS than my Orks, from fewer models that were harder to kill. I'd understand it if they had lower range, or if fewer of them had decent-range guns, or if they were lower AP than they were. I'm not expecting them to shoot worse, but the fact of the matter is, they had greater volume of fire, greater accuracy, pretty much better everything shooting than the Orks at equal points. They also had better armour, better assault (faster) and just as many attacks. At the same time.

That's what's not fair. If it was one or the other, then fine. But both?

And how.is that different to any other marine army?

Marine armies are typically easier and more forgiving of mistakes than m ost armies. The rules tend to be decent to strong.

Grey knights are the epitome of this+1

They are better than marines with better equipment and not much of a cost increase.

The cost increase means fewer models, so less painting, so you can play sooner at tournament standards.

They are the second easiest army to paint, neurons being slightly easier.

Anyone that says they are playing for fluff reasons and uses dread knights or psyrifleman spam is a liar.

blaktoof wrote:
Anyone that says they are playing for fluff reasons and uses dread knights or psyrifleman spam is a liar.

"Anyone who disagrees with me is a liar." See how silly that looks?

2nd easiest to paint? Um their termies arent quite as easy as tau, ba, necrons, bt, some eldar, etc. Draigo is certainly more difficult then those mentioned hqs unless your rushing of course cause then the pain job is only as good as the time.

Better then marines? Thats kinda a blanket statement. Good to know I guess though not entirely true.

Hhhm easy to play? Not so much if i loose 1-2 paladins or 3 purifers in a squad I bet I notice more then a block of necrons or gaunts.

So if they dont use a psyfleman or play henchman whats your suggestion for shooting beyond 24in? I mean razorbacks are kinda a waste if I want to run 10 purifiers. lol SR? um no I dont think 1 twin link las is gonna prob cut it. Vinidcare? oh yes his one shot is much better. lol

With wound allocation nonsense losing 1 paladin doesn't happen until you have failed 6 saves in. A 5 man unit...

Draigo is easy to paint.

You are denying that a basic gk model is not as good as a basic marine?

And yes dreadknight and psyriflemanspam is not fluffy, I didn't say it wasn't effective. People play it because it's effective, not because it's fluffy.

Any other gk fanbois have their psychic panties in a bunch?

Deadshot wrote:

Anvildude wrote:I've had a foot Ork army full of Shoota boyz, Tankbustas and Flash Gits go up against Foot Grey Knights. The Knights put out more firepower, at a longer range, with higher average strength, with a better BS than my Orks, from fewer models that were harder to kill. I'd understand it if they had lower range, or if fewer of them had decent-range guns, or if they were lower AP than they were. I'm not expecting them to shoot worse, but the fact of the matter is, they had greater volume of fire, greater accuracy, pretty much better everything shooting than the Orks at equal points. They also had better armour, better assault (faster) and just as many attacks. At the same time.

That's what's not fair. If it was one or the other, then fine. But both?

And how.is that different to any other marine army?

Most other Marine armies don't have Assault weapons- they're stuck with Rapid Fire- and they don't get psycannons with their 4 shots on Relentless Terminators or 3 shots in small squads. If a basic Marine army wants that volume of fire, they need to take guns that aren't as effective against armour, and pay for larger units, or else get or allow the enemy to get within charge range. Knights can just sit back and shoot.

Brother SRM wrote:Draigowing doesn't scare me much at all. Drive circles around badguys and shoot them; not much to it. It's a slow list unless it's mounted, in which case it's a tinier list than it already was. I've thought of starting the $150 army of 10 paladins, Draigo and a codex, just because it's easy to build, paint, and play.

I have only played one game with my GKs and it was that exact setup... I got STOMPED by the new Necrons.

Now, admittedly, I am not the most skilled of players, but the guy had tremor staves and a C'tan... I lost three Paladins to dangerous terrain (argh!) and in the end only Draigo made it to CC... the doom ark or whatever it is killed everything else.

IMO you *need* some transport.

Running a 2000pt list with Draigo, a libby, 10 pallies, 13 purifiers and 2 stormravens atm... not played any games though as I have yet to build the vehicles

Henners91 wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Draigowing doesn't scare me much at all. Drive circles around badguys and shoot them; not much to it. It's a slow list unless it's mounted, in which case it's a tinier list than it already was. I've thought of starting the $150 army of 10 paladins, Draigo and a codex, just because it's easy to build, paint, and play.

I have only played one game with my GKs and it was that exact setup... I got STOMPED by the new Necrons.

Now, admittedly, I am not the most skilled of players, but the guy had tremor staves and a C'tan... I lost three Paladins to dangerous terrain (argh!) and in the end only Draigo made it to CC... the doom ark or whatever it is killed everything else.

IMO you *need* some transport.

Running a 2000pt list with Draigo, a libby, 10 pallies, 13 purifiers and 2 stormravens atm... not played any games though as I have yet to build the vehicles

You failed 6 dangerous terrain tests in one turn? That's some pretty insane bad luck.

To be fair it was a combination of gauss and terrain, but the tests got the killing blow on all of them.

I don't know anything about the new Necron 'dex 'n' I am definitely a painter before a gamer, but eesh; difficult terrain if I hit you? Oh wait, I also took a C'tan: Looks like it's dangerous! Good luck getting to me, brah.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Anyone that says they are playing for fluff reasons and uses dread knights or psyrifleman spam is a liar.

"Anyone who disagrees with me is a liar." See how silly that looks?

Yep, it's blaktoof. reasoned argument isnt their strong suit.

rockerbikie wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

BobTheChainsaw wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Great White wrote:Some people chose them because they played deamonhunters.

I played Daemonhunters. I didn't use GK's. How d'ya think I feel about the GK Codex?

You do realize, with Inquistors, Assasins and Henchmen, you can keep playing your army with the new codex, right?

You just have to run Coteaz. This is the price for playing the least popular half of a dual codex when it gets updated. Consider yourself lucky they didn't get completely deleted from the codex(like they should have been)

I'm not sure if you are being serious. How would you like it if they deleted the Grey Knights and GW made the update Codex :Inquisition instead. Learn Empathy please.

I really do mean that. Inquisition players really dodged a bullet here. There were rumors flying around that Inquisition was getting taken out of the GK codex and getting stuffed competely.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Joey wrote:
I wonder how many eldar players would sacrifice offensive grenades for FNP and Furious Charge? Plus +1S, +1T and power armour on a model that's only 4 points more.
Yeah.
I don't see why some people are so reluctant to acknowledge that some armies are over-powered. Not unbeatable, since no one is claiming that. But point-for-point they deliver more damage than many older armies, and that's a fact.

...what does Power Armour, T4 and FNP have to do with DCAs? They can have FNP if they're in an SoB army, which isn't what we're discussing. Similarly, how many Blood Angels players do you think would swap any of their psychic powers for Fortune?

Also, of course 5th edition armies are more powerful than Eldar; they're a 4th edition Codex, not made for 5th. They also dominated the meta in 4th with their unkillable Falcons.

I read what Joey wrote and was like "What!?!" I thought the discussion was about DCA, but then I saw you are probably referring to normal Grey Knights. But since when do average Grey Knights have FNP and Furious charge? Plus they don't have an as high initiative... You can't just push several units into one and them use them as an argument to say an army is over powered.
And yes as the almighty Walrus says (again and again referring to you feels like I have been taking bad amounts of LSD) the newer Codexes seem to be stronger on many points than older codexes and you can't just say that because one army would like tho exchange something for that unit, they should be able to. I'd like to exchange my heavy weapon squads for longfangs... and everybody else would give their souls to have vendettas but that's the thing about armies, you got yours, deal with em or get another one^^.

But on topic, yes GK are somewhat stronger than other armies. No they are not unbeatable. No playing them is not necessarily boring. Playing an up hill fight can make things more interesting from time to time. I don't see how Grey Knights are by nature easier to paint than other armies. Bad mouthing every new army that comes up isn't the way to go, the whole hobby is about fun. If your opponents make the nastiest of nasty GK lists and curb stomps you then look for other people to play or serious up and continue to hope for good luck. Grey Knights still die like Marines and there is nothing manlier than charging smug GK with regular guardsmen and beating them.
By the way, I love how there were people who said that GK players just wanted to jump the cheep bandwagon, but some of the stronger builds like Coatez henchmen actually require a rather large investment and effort to get (unless they just proxy everything). Or Psyflemen, where does everybody get the darn Autocannons to build those?!?

All I know is, at my local store, we used to have the following line up (Before GK release)
2 Necrons
1 Dark Eldar
2 Eldar
3 BA
1 SW (Me)
2 Marines
2 BT
2 Chaos
3 Guard
2 Tau
1 GK
3 Ork

Which, IMO, is probably the most balanced store I've ever seen. Nowadays it's (Post Necron release)
3 Necrons
1 DE
0 Eldar
1 BA
1 SW
1 Marine
1 Templar
1 Chaos
2 Guard
1 Tau
2 Ork
8 GK (The original player is not among these)

The two WAAC players at the store, which I freely admit I'm one of, refuse to play GK since it's easy mode. I've never seen another army be so popular before...not even the third edition chaos dex which had 5 players and was considered very op...
Also, one of the GK is a henchmen player, and the other is draigo wing. Other then that, it's pretty standard GK lists....and they do extremely well...

The holy trinity of cheap, easy to paint and really powerful.

Draigo wrote:2nd easiest to paint? Um their termies arent quite as easy as tau, ba, necrons, bt some eldar, etc.

Spoken like someone who hasn't tried to make black and white look good. Seriously, as someone who's painted both Grey Knights and Black Templars I can tell you that (IMO, of course) Boltgun Metal is an infinitely more forgiving colour than white, and possibly even black.

Grey Templar wrote:I really do mean that. Inquisition players really dodged a bullet here. There were rumors flying around that Inquisition was getting taken out of the GK codex and getting stuffed competely.

I'd rather my army die on its feet than live on its knees.

DarkHound wrote:I think Grey Knights are one of the worst armies in the game. Their place in the story leaves no room for deviation and creativity. They are also such a small force with so little impact to the universe at large, getting an entire book to themselves is criminal. The Kroot have a bigger presence in the galaxy than the Grey Knights. The old book was closer to a good representation, though I'd join the Sisters and GK as auxiliaries to the Imperium's forces at large, because that's how they actually function.

When you say "Because thats how they actually function" are you referring to the fact that Grey Knights like to kill Sisters of battle and smear their blood on their armour, or?

When you say "Because thats how they actually function" are you referring to the fact that Grey Knights like to kill Sisters of battle and smear their blood on their armour, or?

I'm actually painting a squad of my GK with half covered in blood with smears of it on their chests/helmets. dripping gore from the waist down essentially. If I had some spare sisters bits I'd toss them on the bases.

Well now...

1) They may have played Daemonhunters (like me) for years
2) They may like the background and new plastic kits
3) They're a cheap army to buy into due to the low model count
4) They're quite a competitive army, meaning players have a better chance of wining of having a closer battle
5) They're new, so they're getting lots of coverage in WD, on forums and in stores


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:I played DH before. When I saw the new sculpts, I saw it as an opportunity to push my painting techniques, and to have a really small army (draigowing) that I could use to go to tournaments on my motorcycle.

This is so like me it's spooky.

DH player? Check
Small elite force? Check
Dig the new (not insanely expensive £37.50 metal Terminator squad)? Check
Travel mostly on a motorcycle? Check


......are you me?

Miraclefish wrote:Well now...

1) They may have played Daemonhunters (like me) for years
2) They may like the background and new plastic kits
3) They're a cheap army to buy into due to the low model count
4) They're quite a competitive army, meaning players have a better chance of wining of having a closer battle
5) They're new, so they're getting lots of coverage in WD, on forums and in stores


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:I played DH before. When I saw the new sculpts, I saw it as an opportunity to push my painting techniques, and to have a really small army (draigowing) that I could use to go to tournaments on my motorcycle.

This is so like me it's spooky.

DH player? Check
Small elite force? Check
Dig the new (not insanely expensive £37.50 metal Terminator squad)? Check
Travel mostly on a motorcycle? Check


......are you me?

You are Alpharius....