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Wow this is interesting, now to address a few points without naming names.

Hypocrisy: Liking a product does not mean I have to like the company. There is no loyalty to the company because I like some of the product.
Because you guys have this view, this is why the politics are so messed up. You guys dont dislike an issue because of the issue itself, you dislike them because e.g republican / democrats party.
This is why we cant have nice things.

Its irrelevant whether this vide is made before the product release although ( May 23 finecast announced may 28th finecast release, video created May 31st )

But I'll entertain your idea of what if its made "before" the release.

Easy, successful propaganda, successful hype, successful in convincing the customers BEFORE THEY EVEN SEE THE PRODUCT FOR THEMSELVES.
*ahem e.g below. Do you think any of them have any "good" experience to finecast prior to the release? when it never existed?
No? then why are they so feverish about it? because, successful GW advertisement.

blood lance wrote:Theres one thing that everyone seems to be missing.
This video seems to have been made before the finecast release. The most people knew where that it was made from resin and the paragraph GW had mentioned it with.
How can the OP base an entire, near conspiracy theory about a company with this video considering that:
A kid made the video. Kids cant have large massive opinions like all others out there. In the future when he grows up his opinions may change, or dont change.
Its before or very close to the finecast release. He cant of been brainwashed or whatever it is thats being said when a lot of what he was talking about, he didnt know too much about the product.
And generally, it is pretty much Gw's description, because that was all there was at the time! He cant go on some hour long opinion of it from about 200 words or so.

I cant see why you are complaining that GW are getting younger customers. I udnerstand that as days go by, a lot of the veteran gamers go, but then younger ones move in. Its like one big cycle (Wow that sounds cliche)
Besides, when i was new to the hobby I was just like this kid. I bought everything and believed all I heard. Now in the future I dont do that, and I have another friend whos at the same stage in the hobby I was (the buy all believe all phase) and of anything, hes worse then I am! Its just a young/new player mentality. Most children like shiny thing so buy shiny thing. You cant expect them to know better when they arent sure what is better.

You and kanluwen keep missing the point. though ironically both of you claim that we missed something.....

a) No one is attacking the child for making the video
b) You said that a child makes the mistake now, because he is a child, though his opinion might change as he grows

See those 2 points above...
What do you think this thread is about then?

Its about tactically targetting a child at their earlier "unwiser" state as a main target of customer.

Its not about criticizing children, your post just agreed why GW is doing exactly what they are doing now.

I don't know where he got the idea that GW hold the copyright on finecast resin because I've not heard that said anywhere else. For a start they buy the plastic-resin elsewhere, they haven't invented a new polymer to my knowledge, and protecting such a thing or manufacture process legally could be a bit tricky. Not saying it can't be done, but as GW haven't invented anything the point is moot.

not like the anti-PP guys who hate everything from the word go.

So your white knighting for PP?

Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't know where he got the idea that GW hold the copyright on finecast resin because I've not heard that said anywhere else. For a start they buy the plastic-resin elsewhere, they haven't invented a new polymer to my knowledge, and protecting such a thing or manufacture process legally could be a bit tricky. Not saying it can't be done, but as GW haven't invented anything the point is moot.

There is an extremely high chance that child goes to dakka.

As I mentioned, all of his points have being used by dakkites, and even warseer that white knighted finecast. Or perhaps all white knights think alike?

And the copy right issue, it has being brought up before, some where along the line of " the specific resin mix is tailored formula to go with GW products, eg glue, primer, paint
perhaps he took that as a copy righted formula... after all, there is no product in this universe that can rival GW's ( supposedly... or so GW says )

Interesting, its written on their own site

So, what are Citadel Finecast miniatures and why are we making the change? Quite simply, Citadel Finecast is the next step in the evolution in tabletop miniatures wargaming. From the start, Games Workshop has always innovated and sought to increase the quality of our models - Citadel Finecast is the next step in that process. There are no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world, and we're proud and very excited for you all to see this for yourselves.

The Citadel Finecast miniatures are all made from a unique resin formula. For us as hobbyists, this is great news. The resin is easy to work with and quick to cut off the sprue, making assembling a miniature easier than it has ever been. Not only that, but it's incredibly light too, which means pinning wings and other heavy components will be a thing of the past. So, quick and durable, that's a good start. But of course, one of the main reasons for this change to resin was quality. One thing you'll notice immediately when you pick them up is the exceptionally sharp detail on the model, which can only be described as staggering. For dedicated painters (which we all are to some extent) this is a dream come true.

Anyways, enough about finecast, there are enough threads about finecasts, as well as poll results that overrides any white knighting.

Now the question is, how probable do you guys think GW is indeed targeting this age group as their main customer audience.

will it coincide with :

-everything is space marines
-release pattern
-release price
-shinny new large models, e.g the trend now every army gets a monster or 2
-fluff pattern, everything is over the top, all the story and conflicts are done for the sake of IN YOUR FACE, matt ward style ( though I personally feels matt ward is just abiding what GW wanted him to do )
-even army book cover. gone are the elegant epic pictures of armies, followed by again, in your face subject plastered 60% of the art space. As if its targeting those with A.D.D

Hyd wrote:Problem is, people who hold extreme positions tend to be the most vocal, often by aggressively defending their opinion (misplaced moral commitment maybe ?).
So if an average, reasonable dude walks in, looking for factual discussions with well constructed arguments only to meet vindictive verbal vitriol or just plain stupidity, what do you think the reaction will be ?
"Uh, what's their problem exactly ? *shrugs* Heh, whatever." and he calls it a day. Because he's not on a moral crusade about the topic at hand. In the end, you don't hear his point of view often because he's the quiet majority.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. The issue isn’t so much that people have a difference of opinions (which often results in people being mislabelled as a hater or white knight) but rather the extremity of those opinions. Unfortunately on Dakka, we have quite a few posters with fairly extreme opinions and who often take offence when contrary opinions have been posted. What doesn’t help though is the “internet tough guy” style of posting that seems to be popular nowadays.

In regards to the Finecast spiel posted by Lunahound, I remember glancing over it and not thinking too much about it when it was first released. It seems quite disturbing when I read through it again today. To say the spiel is an exaggeration is to say the least.

I say one of the advantages of targeted a younger demographic is that they’re less likely to make informed decisions as a) they’re younger and lack experience (e.g. novice user who is unaware of what minimum standards should be) and b) being younger, they’re probably more naïve and more likely to believe what an adult tells them (e.g. Finecast is the best thing since sliced bread). Assuming GW have been steadily shifting towards primarily targeting a younger market over the past 5-10 years, GW probably knew that their new focus on a younger demographic would minimise the negative impact of Finecast. This is just a tin foil hat theory mind you but I wouldn’t put it past them.

candy.man wrote:[ GW probably knew that their new focus on a younger demographic would minimise the negative impact of Finecast. This is just a tin foil hat theory mind you but I wouldn’t put it past them.

That theory would work if their target demographic being young males was a new direction. This was their target demographic years ago, before they even considered switching from metal. I agree it's probably an intended benefit they had in mind, but to say it's a new direction purely for the metal switch is pretty wrong.

@Chowderhead
Did our misunderstanding get resolved or should I get into detail to clear up the accusation?
Because I really dislike false accusations

-Loki- wrote:

candy.man wrote:[ GW probably knew that their new focus on a younger demographic would minimise the negative impact of Finecast. This is just a tin foil hat theory mind you but I wouldn’t put it past them.

That theory would work if their target demographic being young males was a new direction. This was their target demographic years ago, before they even considered switching from metal. I agree it's probably an intended benefit they had in mind, but to say it's a new direction purely for the metal switch is pretty wrong.

I dont think finecast was the change in direction.
It just further reinforces + show the fruit of GW's change.

curran12 wrote:ONE VIDEO ON THE INTERNET IS THE IDEAL WAY TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT ABOUT AN ENTIRE COMPANY.

I should dig up someone going on about PP and do the same thing.

This.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:

curran12 wrote:ONE VIDEO ON THE INTERNET IS THE IDEAL WAY TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT ABOUT AN ENTIRE COMPANY.

I should dig up someone going on about PP and do the same thing.

This.

You guys ......... makes me speechless

The video is nothing but an GW ideal manifesting and realized into a visual media to reinforce the idea of what GW has being doing, successfully.

The ideal: GW selects type of customers that doesnt really question anything being fed by GW, will buy the products regardless, if not by naivety, then loyalty alone.

The visual: You know the type, we all know them too well. The children that you see in GW, pulling their parents in GW and buy the random thing
they were told by staff to be "cool" or very good for them. Or the type that buys it for the sake of the product being GW made. Not caring whether its good or not.

We all seen the types before, but how do you show it? Well we see the video of that pretty much portray the "subject"

So... why is it like half of the posts in this thread cant get over that concept at all?

Is it animosity?
Is it some innate human trait of pro-group protection mechanism kicking in to defend that you love?

What exactly is it?

It is easier to dismiss than to disprove.

Heres what I dont get....why the hell is Dakka anti-GW? Its like biting the hand that feeds.

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:Heres what I dont get....why the hell is Dakka anti-GW?

Dakka as a whole? No it's not. There are members here that love GW to the point of fanaticism, members who hate them to the point of fanaticism, and people in between.

Its like biting the hand that feeds.

Interesting. Please elaborate a bit more.

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:Heres what I dont get....why the hell is Dakka anti-GW? Its like biting the hand that feeds.

Is it anti-GW or pro-gamer? There is a distinction. If I just said GW sucks I might be Anti GW. If I say Finecast sucks because it is a poorly thought out and produced product and is therefore not a value to gamers, well then I'm pro-gamer.

This distinction is lost on white knights that can only hear any negative as a blast at GW.

GW paints and modeling supplies are terribly high priced and much better products can be purchased for far less. Is this anti-GW or pro-gamer?

< Taken by the void dragon. >

notprop wrote:I'm pretty sure those that buy the games but hate Gw should be described as hypocrites

How? For hypocrisy to exist one must say one thing and then do something that goes against what they say (or vice versa). The only way you can read hypocrisy into the actions of myself and others is if you make the flawed assumption that not liking GW = not liking 40K.

I like 40K.
I do not like GW.

These two statements are not in opposition to one another, ergo, no hypocrisy present.

notprop wrote:...but Black Knight does sound less controversial (if you ignore the connection with Martin Laurence’s piss poor film that is).

Then to avoid the connotation, can we use Dark Knight in its place?

Mannahnin wrote:That's what's funny/sad. You and your "white knights" are absolutely the same in this. You each (rightly) feel that your actual feelings are more nuanced and balanced than you believe your "opponents'" are, but both of you go on and on expressing the less-nuanced part of your position. And accusing the other guy of being completely one-sided in his position.

I don’t buy a word of that. Hell that’s a borderline golden mean fallacy right there (“You are all the same!!!”)

What’s balanced about wilfully ignoring all the things GW (the company) does or pretending that obvious flaws (eg. Finecast) don’t exist? What’s nuanced about attempting to explain away these faults as though they weren’t real?

He won’t be young forever you know….

…and time makes bitter cynics of us all.

biccat wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:People who dislike PP and/or WM/H usually do so based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game which PP oft seems to encourage. People who dislike GW are usually critical of their business practices, although there are certainly plenty of snobs who deride the gameplay and even the models.

Interesting.

What makes people "who deride the gameplay and even the models" of GW "snobs" that doesn't apply equally to people who "dislike PP and/or WM/H. . . based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game."

Is it only snobbish to criticize Games Workshop's models and gameplay?

Fair point; guess I had a bit of my own prejudice showing. That being said, Warmachine is probably my second-favorite tabletop minis game, and I have a good-sized painted Cryx force I've used quite a bit (though not recently). I should have said "people", rather than snobs.

What about someone who is indifferent to PP, like myself? I own 4 PP models (for use in the 40K RPG), but the game holds no interest for me. That’s not a judgement of its quality, it’s just that I do not find it interesting. Does that make me a Grey Knight?

Ma55ter_fett wrote:…and time makes bitter cynics of us all.

I’m already a cynic. It’s kinda fun.

Bakerofish wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:
You're drawing a false distinction. From my perspective, there is less difference between the people who complain about each game than you think. People who dislike PP and/or WM/H usually do so based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game which PP oft seems to encourage. People who dislike GW are usually critical of their business practices, although there are certainly plenty of snobs who deride the gameplay and even the models. In reality most people are critical of at least SOME aspects of both companies/games. The folks who completely dump on either are a loud and annoying minority.

is it really a false distinction? The folks that people label as "GW-haters" are players who would profess love for the game/art/modeling aspects but hate the company. Yes they're vocal about their dislike for GW and would go out of their way to let the world know it but theyre still playing 40k games

on the otherhand i can only think of one guy whos an out-and-out Anti-Privateer Press who would go out of his way in this message board to let the world know that PP sucked in its entirety.

the folks who dislike PP for some reason or another in the board arent vocal enough to be labeled "haters"

thats what im trying to point out.

And my position is that the two kinds of "haters" are not really different. Our perspective on them is a bit different based on which we prefer, perhaps,. Just as biccat pointed out, I'm pretty neutral but evidently have a bit of pro-GW bias which led me to my poor word choice in "snobs".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

curran12 wrote:Whatever happened to the people who like GW, but just would appreciate it if they changed little things? Am I the last one of them?

My main point is that 99%+ of the people on this forum are in this group, if for "like GW" you read "enjoy GW's products". The vast majority of us have some criticisms of them, but like their stuff. Including Luna, HBMC and Kanluwen. Their seemingly polar opposite positions are mostly exaggerations of their real opinions, brought on by the unnecessarily combative dynamic of their interactions.

I like PP's model aesthetics
I like PP's game

I CANNOT stand the metal ( or anything larger than an ogre not made in plastic )

though thats partly my personal flaw as i absolute suck at assembling things.

Does that make me pro or anti GW? or neither?

LunaHound wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't know where he got the idea that GW hold the copyright on finecast resin because I've not heard that said anywhere else. For a start they buy the plastic-resin elsewhere, they haven't invented a new polymer to my knowledge, and protecting such a thing or manufacture process legally could be a bit tricky. Not saying it can't be done, but as GW haven't invented anything the point is moot.

There is an extremely high chance that child goes to dakka.

As I mentioned, all of his points have being used by dakkites, and even warseer that white knighted finecast. Or perhaps all white knights think alike?

Or, far more likely (and IMO obviously), the kid is just repeating the sales pitch given to him by GW staffers. Unavoidably the same good points of Finecast, both real (ease of conversion, less chipping, lighter) and false (durable) will be made by anyone repeating what GW staff have told them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:That's what's funny/sad. You and your "white knights" are absolutely the same in this. You each (rightly) feel that your actual feelings are more nuanced and balanced than you believe your "opponents'" are, but both of you go on and on expressing the less-nuanced part of your position. And accusing the other guy of being completely one-sided in his position.

I don’t buy a word of that. Hell that’s a borderline golden mean fallacy right there (“You are all the same!!!”)

What’s balanced about wilfully ignoring all the things GW (the company) does or pretending that obvious flaws (eg. Finecast) don’t exist? What’s nuanced about attempting to explain away these faults as though they weren’t real?

That's my point. Almost no one actually does that. I've seen Kanluwen criticise GW on several occasions. Can you name me someone who defends them more than he does? Literally no one I've ever seen willfully ignores all the things GW does wrong. You are making a hyperbolic comment based on an entrenched position of opposition to what you perceive someone as saying/believing, which IMO is not really an accurate assessment of their opinions. Both because your perception is impaired, and because he is adopting an exaggerated, near devil's advocate, position in response to similar hyperbole.

I like you and I like Kanluwen, though you both drive me nuts sometimes. I see you both post mostly reasonable opinions, from my perspective.

-Loki- wrote:That theory would work if their target demographic being young males was a new direction. This was their target demographic years ago, before they even considered switching from metal. I agree it's probably an intended benefit they had in mind, but to say it's a new direction purely for the metal switch is pretty wrong.

I agree with you’re reasoning as well Loki. My post wasn’t arguing that they switched to a younger demographic specifically for finecast but rather their previous switch to a younger demographic (started years before) allowed them to minimise the damage from finecast (thus making the entire project viable). I might even go so far as to speculate that this could have been mentioned in their project risk planning.

Whilst we can list the benefits for GW switching to a younger demographic, I wonder what the core reasoning was. Personally I doubt it is due to higher revenue as their previous demographic was able to make more frequent and larger purchases. Given how lucrative entertainment products marketed at kids can be (toys and games such as Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh), perhaps GW wanted to reinvent themselves so they can have a share of this market.

Mannahnin wrote:I like you and I like Kanluwen, though you both drive me nuts sometimes. I see you both post mostly reasonable opinions, from my perspective.

How about me :'<

I'm sure you're a lovely human being. But The video is just kid being an awkward kid gushing about his hobby and reiterating a sales pitch while shilling for attention (people to "rate, subscribe, and comment" on his video). I don't see much sign of sinister conspiracies in it.

candy.man wrote:Whilst we can list the benefits for GW switching to a younger demographic, I wonder what the core reasoning was. Personally I doubt it is due to higher revenue as their previous demographic was able to make more frequent and larger purchases. Given how lucrative entertainment products marketed at kids can be (toys and games such as Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh), perhaps GW wanted to reinvent themselves so they can have a share of this market.

Most likely because its easier to hook a 14 year old with awesome models, books and art. They see a Space Marine with a massively oversized automatic grenade launcher blowing a dinosaur cockroach to pieces and they're hooked. Show a 24 year old, and they might give it a glance, but less likely they'll be wowed into starting.

So it comes down to either easily impressionable young people spending their parents disposeable income or a harder to impress older audience with its own disposeable income. When you think about it, since there's the chance that the easily impressed younger audience will likely end up spending their own disposeable income on GW products when they're older, it's where you want to concentrate.

Exactly Loki! finally people are seeing past the boy and getting the deeper meaning -_-

<---- yaying

Only took about 4 pages.

A science fiction game featuring action, explosions and cool-looking guns and tanks and swords and stuff is appealing to teenage boys? Really? Obviously that's a desireable demographic, but it's not as if they're not targeting us older geeks as well.

-Loki- wrote:

candy.man wrote:Whilst we can list the benefits for GW switching to a younger demographic, I wonder what the core reasoning was. Personally I doubt it is due to higher revenue as their previous demographic was able to make more frequent and larger purchases. Given how lucrative entertainment products marketed at kids can be (toys and games such as Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh), perhaps GW wanted to reinvent themselves so they can have a share of this market.

Most likely because its easier to hook a 14 year old with awesome models, books and art. They see a Space Marine with a massively oversized automatic grenade launcher blowing a dinosaur cockroach to pieces and they're hooked. Show a 24 year old, and they might give it a glance, but less likely they'll be wowed into starting.

So it comes down to either easily impressionable young people spending their parents disposeable income or a harder to impress older audience with its own disposeable income. When you think about it, since there's the chance that the easily impressed younger audience will likely end up spending their own disposeable income on GW products when they're older, it's where you want to concentrate.

Bingo.

Was anyone seriously contemplating otherwise?

Mr Hyena wrote:

not like the anti-PP guys who hate everything from the word go.

So your white knighting for PP?

holy leap of logic batman.

@Manhannin

yeah i think theyve got older guys locked down pretty well in their sights. To be honest the only real thing thats missing from GW games is cheesecake (unless you count Slaanesh and Sisters of Battle, and that would raise a LOT of questions if you find that appealing that way )