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Good thread Lunahound, but I don't think many people would really doubt the argument you are making.

Anyone who has been following GW for 10 years or more, in any kind of detail, would acknowledge the changes that have happened in the company, and the change in target demographic.

Bakerofish wrote:and on that note I like John Blanche's artwork and would argue that if he wasnt around GW's aesthetics would be very different

I said as much the other day.

Bakerofish wrote:are they really haters though? they like the IP, they like the game...just not the company

not like the anti-PP guys who hate everything from the word go.

You're drawing a false distinction. From my perspective, there is less difference between the people who complain about each game than you think. People who dislike PP and/or WM/H usually do so based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game which PP oft seems to encourage. People who dislike GW are usually critical of their business practices, although there are certainly plenty of snobs who deride the gameplay and even the models. In reality most people are critical of at least SOME aspects of both companies/games. The folks who completely dump on either are a loud and annoying minority.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Bakerofish wrote:are they really haters though? they like the IP, they like the game...just not the company

That's just it. I really like 40K, and a bunch of other games GW makes. And their miniatures. And their artwork ('cept for John Blanche's scribble-art). And their fluff (aside from many of the Ward-related items). But I'm not going to stick my fingers in my ears and pretend all is right and justified with GW - the company - and their actions towards their customer base.

That's what's funny/sad. You and your "white knights" are absolutely the same in this. You each (rightly) feel that your actual feelings are more nuanced and balanced than you believe your "opponents'" are, but both of you go on and on expressing the less-nuanced part of your position. And accusing the other guy of being completely one-sided in his position.

Howard A Treesong wrote:He's just repeating what hesbeen told and read. Finecast figured aren't magically more detailed and the bit about it being cheap (in the long run) is woeful, prepare to be disappointed!

Kids tend to show unquestioning loyalty to things because they are still developing critical faculties and still believe what adults tell them. For example, does he really think they are industructible and you can throw them on the floor? As for the prices? He's 10, he's not paying for them.

This.

Howard A Treesong wrote:The only question is how many of GW's customers are the same? This is the point that Kanuwlen seems to have missed, because when I first when to GW kids were an uncommon sight, it's mostly kids now.

Maybe it's different in the UK (and in actual GW stores), but I rarely see kids this young into it. Even college age or teenage are definitely in the minority everywhere I play. I have been hearing this same stuff about GW turning everything toward kids for as long as I've been in the game, though (since 1998).

Mannahnin wrote:People who dislike PP and/or WM/H usually do so based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game which PP oft seems to encourage. People who dislike GW are usually critical of their business practices, although there are certainly plenty of snobs who deride the gameplay and even the models.

Interesting.

What makes people "who deride the gameplay and even the models" of GW "snobs" that doesn't apply equally to people who "dislike PP and/or WM/H. . . based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game."

Is it only snobbish to criticize Games Workshop's models and gameplay?

On the subject of the video, I wonder what his Dakka user name is. I have a few guesses.

Mannahnin wrote:
You're drawing a false distinction. From my perspective, there is less difference between the people who complain about each game than you think. People who dislike PP and/or WM/H usually do so based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game which PP oft seems to encourage. People who dislike GW are usually critical of their business practices, although there are certainly plenty of snobs who deride the gameplay and even the models. In reality most people are critical of at least SOME aspects of both companies/games. The folks who completely dump on either are a loud and annoying minority.

is it really a false distinction? The folks that people label as "GW-haters" are players who would profess love for the game/art/modeling aspects but hate the company. Yes they're vocal about their dislike for GW and would go out of their way to let the world know it but theyre still playing 40k games

on the otherhand i can only think of one guy whos an out-and-out Anti-Privateer Press who would go out of his way in this message board to let the world know that PP sucked in its entirety.

the folks who dislike PP for some reason or another in the board arent vocal enough to be labeled "haters"

thats what im trying to point out.

biccat wrote:
On the subject of the video, I wonder what his Dakka user name is. I have a few guesses.

The kid's not a Dakka user AFAIK, unless you're making a sly stab at certain GW White Knights on here...

Bakerofish wrote:Yes they're vocal about their dislike for GW and would go out of their way to let the world know it

And that's pretty much the definition of a hater. If you go out of your way to profess your feelings about it, you're overdoing it.
All extreme positions end up weakening their (maybe completely valid) points by being extreme about it.

Disagree ? Replace "hater" by "white knight" in my sentence. Though I think "fanboy" would be more appropriate.

I'm pretty sure those that buy the games but hate Gw should be described as hypocrites, but Black Knight does sound less controversial (if you ignore the connection with Martin Laurence’s piss poor film that is).

In other news GW sells to kids with or with access to disposable incomes (As evidenced by the Vid) and Coca cola targets fat people with a sweet tooth (as evidenced by the USA and most of Western Europe).

This Vid would be like holding a mirror to allot of this community, fortunately we're all cool and never fall for advertising/brainwashing and know everything about everything even and especially when new to stuff.

@hyd

yes i agree that if you take the hate/defense to the extreme then you earned the label

but that still goes back to my question. if they love/hate an aspect of what theyre speaking about, are they REALLY haters/white knights?

I personally dont think so. I'd rather reserve the terms for the unreasonable/extremes that you talked about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@notprop

Hypocrites? really? thats harsh...and a good chunk of the reading/posting population here in Dakka

Bakerofish wrote:
@notprop

Hypocrites? really? thats harsh...and a good chunk of the reading/posting population here in Dakka

Well, I agree with him to a certain extent. However, people that PLAY GW's games but rant about them (a good chunk of the reading/posting population here in Dakka as you put) are not. Me? I like 40k, it's background, models and gameplay at certain times (depends what I'm in the mood for), however I think GW corporate can go sit on a railroad spike.

I do not buy GW products anymore, due to their shenanigans last year being the straw that broke the camel's back but I still play their games with the stuff I already have. This does not make me a hypocrite.

No calling anyone anything, but paying for product while bemoaning the seller seems like quite a good example of hypocrisy to me.

I don’t mind that, but I find it funny that people get quite so emotionally entwined in these discussions that they have to label camps for one another for perceived transgressions. Is that not what this thread is about?

Too old for the internet I guess......

@notprop

youre misusing the word hypocrite sir.

@ Grimtuff - and nor are you by that description.

I work for a big corporation, the gak our PLC get up to to turn a few quid is mind numbing in the detail in which they will strive to accomplish its goals.

GW really are nice chaps compared to us.

Fish - pretty sure i'm not.

candy.man wrote: Even still, GW’s financials have been on a steady decline for quite a few years now so I’ll say that it’s yet to pay off for GW.

Umm... not according to their publicly reported financial information:

http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011-Full-Year-Report-and-Accounts-full-25-July.pdf

Their turnover and profit have been pretty steady for the past 5 years, which is pretty damn good considering the world economy is in the toilet and they sell what can only be described as luxury goods.

The document is also pretty interesting to read as they have their CEO commentary on Finecast and some other organisational stuff.

@notprop

i hate pulling the dictionary out on people since im not a native english speaker but:

"hypocrisy: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not"

it involves deception.

Complaining about inflated GW prices while continuing to buy is not hypocrisy. Foolish maybe. Or desperate. But not hypocrisy.

Flinty wrote:

candy.man wrote: Even still, GW’s financials have been on a steady decline for quite a few years now so I’ll say that it’s yet to pay off for GW.

Umm... not according to their publicly reported financial information:

http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011-Full-Year-Report-and-Accounts-full-25-July.pdf

Their turnover and profit have been pretty steady for the past 5 years, which is pretty damn good considering the world economy is in the toilet and they sell what can only be described as luxury goods.

The document is also pretty interesting to read as they have their CEO commentary on Finecast and some other organisational stuff.

Yes, although if you consider that profits have held to a similar level while prices have gone up, a straightforward conclusion would be that less units are being sold.

Mind you, volume of sales is hardly likely to go up when you tell a whole region of the world to 'feth off'. We also have no way of knowing how much the Finecast replacements are costing, presumably a noticeable amount if they are now reportedly asking for a return of the actual miniatures in some cases (something which has never happened before in my experience).

I think:
- Perennial price increase (more for RoW)
- Drop of quality control
- lack of marketing in any form
- secrecy surrounding new releases
- taking WD from news-stands

All of these factors reflect poorly on the decision making of the company at the executive level. It's great that GW are managing to stay afloat in these difficult times (it probably helps that the games are played in a lot of cases by people or those with parents who have had a good education, and by extension often better paying jobs), but I think most would agree that if the above were rectified even in part, they would be making a lot more sales, and the number of 'whine' threads on this forum would be reduced by a factor of 10.

Bakerofish wrote:@notprop

i hate pulling the dictionary out on people since im not a native english speaker but:

"hypocrisy: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not"

it involves deception.

Complaining about inflated GW prices while continuing to buy is not hypocrisy. Foolish maybe. Or desperate. But not hypocrisy.

That’s quite alright chum, but you really should read more than just the first line of a definition that you Google.

Merriam-Webster wrote:
Examples of HYPOCRISY
• the hypocrisy of people who say one thing but do another

The use of English goes beyond the basic definition.

15 all I think.

Never played this game before - Wheeeeeeeeeeee!

*facepalm

you said "I'm pretty sure those that buy the games but hate Gw should be described as hypocrites"

now...if you would care to educate me kind sir...what description fits what you said right there?

by your definition every anti-Obama US citizen who still LIVE in the united states would be considered a hypocrite.

is that what youre saying?

No. Hating GW and buying 40k do not a hypocrite make.

I'm afraid it does by your choice of dictionary. Don't worry I'm sure all the other dictionaries concur.

The Obama simile doesn't work. If they hated Obama and still voted for him then it would but it doesn't.

So where does that leave us, 30 all or game notprop? Pimms anyone?

Guys please

Bakerofish, technically you are indeed correct, but hypocrite is one of those words that is commonly used incorrectly (another of those words is 'ironic').

I would say that people who are on the forums complaining about GW bitterly, then go onto a website and buy $300 of stuff, are indeed hypocritical.

In dictionary terms that would be an incorrect use of the word, but everyone would understand exactly what I meant when I said it.

But by the same token, just because a consumer buys product from a manufacturer, does not immediately make that manufacturer immune to criticism. Obviously there is a fine line to be drawn - personally, I would feel uncomfortable criticising something vociferously and yet still buying it but that is more to do with the fact that it is deceitful in words and action.

The point being, and has been iterated already, one can still enjoy GW games/settings/miniatures and yet still find scorn for the company, for its business practices.

sorry its just a pet peeve of mine

unlike most of you guys I had to learn English as a second language and if a word isn't being used properly then it ISN'T being used properly. Nuance and implied meanings are taught but the above usage was just wrong.

but apparently instead of coming with a worthwhile argument other than "cuz i say so" is the norm for some so I guess I must "lose" as i can't win a fools game

I would suggest you are being a little foolish if you raise a definition and then disregard everything but the first line.

Also since pedantry seems to be you game a few more capitals might be in order. Sorry, a pet peeve if you will.

Whatever happened to the people who like GW, but just would appreciate it if they changed little things? Am I the last one of them?

Has this board really devolved into haters vs. white knights? Both of them are idiots, and act like it.

notprop wrote:I would suggest you are being a little foolish if you raise a definition and then disregard everything but the first line.

Also since pedantry seems to be you game a few more capitals might be in order. Sorry, a pet peeve if you will.

im just waiting for you to come up with a definition that satisfies your usage is all

but you've already "won" and you've resorted to attacking my grammar

cheers

Theres one thing that everyone seems to be missing.
This video seems to have been made before the finecast release. The most people knew where that it was made from resin and the paragraph GW had mentioned it with.
How can the OP base an entire, near conspiracy theory about a company with this video considering that:
A kid made the video. Kids cant have large massive opinions like all others out there. In the future when he grows up his opinions may change, or dont change.
Its before or very close to the finecast release. He cant of been brainwashed or whatever it is thats being said when a lot of what he was talking about, he didnt know too much about the product.
And generally, it is pretty much Gw's description, because that was all there was at the time! He cant go on some hour long opinion of it from about 200 words or so.

I cant see why you are complaining that GW are getting younger customers. I udnerstand that as days go by, a lot of the veteran gamers go, but then younger ones move in. Its like one big cycle (Wow that sounds cliche)
Besides, when i was new to the hobby I was just like this kid. I bought everything and believed all I heard. Now in the future I dont do that, and I have another friend whos at the same stage in the hobby I was (the buy all believe all phase) and of anything, hes worse then I am! Its just a young/new player mentality. Most children like shiny thing so buy shiny thing. You cant expect them to know better when they arent sure what is better.

Posted a video response to which he posted a somewhat grammatically incorrect reply.

lord marcus wrote:Posted a video response to which he posted a somewhat grammatically incorrect reply.

So...You posted a video critiquing a child's opinions/beliefs about a product before it comes out whereas you have hindsight in your favour...
Classy move.

curran12 wrote:Has this board really devolved into haters vs. white knights? Both of them are idiots, and act like it.

Problem is, people who hold extreme positions tend to be the most vocal, often by aggressively defending their opinion (misplaced moral commitment maybe ?).
So if an average, reasonable dude walks in, looking for factual discussions with well constructed arguments only to meet vindictive verbal vitriol or just plain stupidity, what do you think the reaction will be ?
"Uh, what's their problem exactly ? *shrugs* Heh, whatever." and he calls it a day. Because he's not on a moral crusade about the topic at hand. In the end, you don't hear his point of view often because he's the quiet majority.

But Dakka's not in such dire a state
I don't recall seeing blind hatred and people do bring facts to the table when discussing. If anything, there is certainly an "echo chamber" effect, which in my experience is quite common on the internet.

On topic :

daedalus wrote:Especially bitter about youtube videos, which are the internet-equivalent of scrawling a message on a bathroom wall in a pub.

QFT.

Somebody also mentioned Apple, which is the first thing that came to my mind ; an example that sadly shows you don't need to be a minor to be a brand zealot.

Edit :
Decided to delete post