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Got WD last night and had a quick/brief glance over it.

Some things seem fairly decent but it's all down to Part 2 with point costs and wargear. We need some really EPIC wargear.

I can see why they've done it though. They realised no one hardly took Dominions and Retributors so had to think of a way to make us use them. Make each unit have unique Faith, that'll solve it...well no.

Seraphim aren't THAT bad but only if you take them with a Jet-Cannoness (if that's still possible). If you manage to pull off both their faith acts it could be handy.

Shooting phase - Seraphim can fire both pistols but no other weapons that turn from that model (errr why would you?), their faith allows re-roll to wounds (not bad really), they can re-roll failed Acts of Faith rolls AND Inv saves. With a Cannoness she could make them I4 and Preferred enemy in Assault. She is also Stubborn and passes this on to any unit I believe. Cannoness can also re-roll To Wound rolls as she benefits from the Seraphims faith just like they do hers.

ALSO a Seraphim unit would add +2 to any faith roll so you would need a 3+ re-rollable for Seraphim to get their faith off. +1 for Cannoness +1 for Seraphim Superior.

All our tanks have a 6+ Inv save too. Not much but it's going to save our bacon sometimes :-)

So if points are lowered I will definitely be trying this combo out. Especially with hand flamers :-D


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AND

To top it all off WD don't know who SoB will be fighting next month. It says "Hive Fleet Leviathan" in the Codex and "Orks" on the back cover!!! Yay two battle reports ;-0

Eumerin wrote:St. Celestine doesn't stay dead anymore. She's received mortal wounds several times, but the mortal bit never seems to stick like it should. The word amongst the faithful is that she'll continue to live until the Emperor himself claims her.

Personally, I like the change.

Sounds intriguing. We already have a pair of similar prophecies. The GK Codex mentions a prophecy where they believe an invincible warrior will finally die at the foot of the Golden Thorn but attribute it to Anval Thawn. Then there's Sanguinius' own prophecy about a golden angel defending the Emperor. While many BA reckon it refers to the HH, Dante believes it to be himself. It could also be used to describe the Sanguinor imo...

Well the Sanguinor is basically a copy paste living saint anyway.

Picked up a copy yesterday and flinched when I saw it was co-authored by Mat Ward. That might explain why we weren't all that impressed by the units and I've got a feeling that the list next month won't be any better.

It really isn't the end of the world BrookM.

I am certainly willing to give it a go and adapt. There are some nasty combos available already and it all boils down to the points really. For example if the Confessors are fairly cheap I will be attaching one to a Celestian Squad. Get a Cannoness in there too and it's pretty good.

I will miss Divine Guidance but looks like we will actually have to use other units other than Sister squads.

As long as he didn't write the fluff we're pretty much safe.

Well, there was no Ultra-fapping or horrible instances of murder for your blood and other acts of desecrating women, so I'm guessing Arby did that.

Did you feel sleepy during or after you read it? That's a sure sign of Arby's work.

It was boring and devoid of those things that make it 40k, so yes, it's his work alright.

So a quick lookthrough of the codex and I'm a bit confused about one thing (I didn't read all 30 previous pages of this thread) are there no force organization slots ?

It doesn't say what is HQ, Elites Troops ETC, or is it all just assumed to be the same as the previous codex, this is just an update to stats/wargear of existing models ?

Disarray wrote:So a quick lookthrough of the codex and I'm a bit confused about one thing (I didn't read all 30 previous pages of this thread) are there no force organization slots ?

It doesn't say what is HQ, Elites Troops ETC, or is it all just assumed to be the same as the previous codex, this is just an update to stats/wargear of existing models ?

You are missing half the codex. Which is out in next months white dwarf. Naturally.

n0t_u wrote:Well the Sanguinor is basically a copy paste living saint anyway.

No. 1 fan of Celestine to be sure. The martyr-like pose, the emphasised nipplage, what a copycat...

...It wasn't surprising to hear some WH fans say they'd rather use the BA codex than this release. Some of their themes often seem to overlap.

H.B.M.C. wrote:As long as he didn't write the fluff we're pretty much safe.

All this talk of prophecies involving the Emperor makes me think that Matt Ward was in charge of the fluff, and Cruddace the rules. If it were true, surely it would have played out better switching them around?

I agree.

With Ward at the helm of the rules we'd get all sorts of stupid over-the-top gak, but it'd be manageable and fun (even if half the concepts are pants-on-head).

And then with Arby on the fluff it would be sleep-inducing, which is preferable to rage-inducing.

I definitely prefer Ward on rules than Ward on fluff for Sisters. The metagame is kind of reliant on Wardified rules now, otherwise Sisters will be such a failure we'll never see a proper release again. Ward on fluff would mean the Sisters release would be the only to have the featured factor lose every major conflict. (except choking the enemy with Sororitas corpses?)

gr1m_dan wrote:Some things seem fairly decent but it's all down to Part 2 with point costs and wargear. We need some really EPIC wargear.

We're not going to get it. I don't know why people are expecting game-breaking wargear. It is very unreasonable.

gr1m_dan wrote:I can see why they've done it though. They realised no one hardly took Dominions and Retributors so had to think of a way to make us use them. Make each unit have unique Faith, that'll solve it...well no.

For Retributors, the problem is their limitation to HBs/MMs. They need a better variety when it comes to weapon choices, or they will never be a viable alternative to Exorcists in standard games. They have not gotten it, so they will still not be taken.

For Dominions-- just adding scout alone would have been enough.

gr1m_dan wrote:Seraphim aren't THAT bad but only if you take them with a Jet-Cannoness (if that's still possible). If you manage to pull off both their faith acts it could be handy.

They're still worse than they used to be.

gr1m_dan wrote:With a Cannoness she could make them I4 and Preferred enemy in Assault. She is also Stubborn and passes this on to any unit I believe. Cannoness can also re-roll To Wound rolls as she benefits from the Seraphims faith just like they do hers.

Yes, but then they also become far less mobile, losing hit and run.

Not that they can really rely on hit and run anymore.

gr1m_dan wrote:All our tanks have a 6+ Inv save too. Not much but it's going to save our bacon sometimes :-)

Not really... relying on a 1/6th chance to survive isn't something I'd want to do.

gr1m_dan wrote:To top it all off WD don't know who SoB will be fighting next month. It says "Hive Fleet Leviathan" in the Codex and "Orks" on the back cover!!! Yay two battle reports ;-0

So we get to see them playtest a horrible codex against two armies which allow for really horrendous builds so that they can try to tailor their lists to make sure Sisters win?

Melissia wrote:

gr1m_dan wrote:Some things seem fairly decent but it's all down to Part 2 with point costs and wargear. We need some really EPIC wargear.

We're not going to get it. I don't know why people are expecting game-breaking wargear. It is very unreasonable.

Maybe not EPIC!!! but something. It isn't unreasonable to wait for the whole shebang before giving up the ghost.

For Retributors, the problem is their limitation to HBs/MMs. They need a better variety when it comes to weapon choices, or they will never be a viable alternative to Exorcists in standard games. They have not gotten it, so they will still not be taken.

It looks like the Easy Bake Oven will be back. The entry in the first part indicates that HF are available to Retributors again. 4xHF in an Immo is still a good time. Especially since they are the only ones with Rending now.

For Dominions-- just adding scout alone would have been enough.

This does intrigue me. Dominions with scout will definitely be something I try out.

Not really... relying on a 1/6th chance to survive isn't something I'd want to do.

I don't think anyone is relying on a 6+ to survive. That being said, it is a nice bonus.

So we get to see them playtest a horrible codex against two armies which allow for really horrendous builds so that they can try to tailor their lists to make sure Sisters win?

Sigh

Melissa - you haven't seen part 2 of the Codex. You know exactly NOTHING on what we are getting. Neither do I.

I am guessing at the following for Command squads though. We have a Surgeon who is obviously going to give a squad FNP or a bubble of FNP. There is the vox caster unit too which will give us a buff to LD.

I am as mad as anyone about the removal of our old faith rules. I loved having AP1 Bolters (on 6's) and Flamers. I feel the pain of everyone but and whilst this isn't an awesome Codex it isn't AS BAD as it could have been.

I am going to play test Seraphim/Cannoness combo ASAP and I know it will be good. Hit and Run was great but this should be decent enough.

Ok a 6+ Inv save is pretty gash and I hate relying on one result but it is something...it's better then NOT having it. Surely you can agree on that.

Sigh what? Are you disputing that new release Codices always win their first battle in WD these days?

To be fair I remember when 7th edition Vampire Counts was released. The guy playing Vampire Counts didn't cast Invocation (the signature spell of the army that raises dead models) once the entire game and ended up losing.

Also regarding the 6++ save. If we are getting it for free then it's alright; certainly not anything that will affect the game in a meaningful way but whatever. If we are paying for it then it's bad.

htj wrote:Sigh what? Are you disputing that new release Codices always win their first battle in WD these days?

No, mostly because I don't usually read them. It is more 'Sigh, the horrible negativity on the internet makes me a sad panda sometimes, sigh. 'Yes, yes, 'Welcome to the internet, pretre'. haha

gr1m_dan wrote:Melissa - you haven't seen part 2 of the Codex. You know exactly NOTHING on what we are getting. Neither do I.

I know what to expect; I pay attention to GW.

gr1m_dan wrote:I am as mad as anyone about the removal of our old faith rules. I loved having AP1 Bolters (on 6's) and Flamers. I feel the pain of everyone but and whilst this isn't an awesome Codex it isn't AS BAD as it could have been.

"It could have been worse" is very poor consolation.

gr1m_dan wrote:Ok a 6+ Inv save is pretty gash and I hate relying on one result but it is something...it's better then NOT having it. Surely you can agree on that.

Not in comparison to having the old Shield of Faith.

We're paying for it with the loss of protection from force weapons and protection from psychic powers. And given that the list has no psykers, we aren't getting a psychic hood.


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pretre wrote:the horrible negativity on the internet makes me a sad panda

I'm negative in regards to how GW treats Sisters because I have a perverse enjoyment of being right all the time

Melissia wrote:

gr1m_dan wrote:Ok a 6+ Inv save is pretty gash and I hate relying on one result but it is something...it's better then NOT having it. Surely you can agree on that.

Not in comparison to having the old Shield of Faith.

We're paying for it with the loss of protection from force weapons and protection from psychic powers. And given that the list has no psykers, we aren't getting a psychic hood.

Okay, a couple statements here that require clarification. a 6+ invul all the time for all units is an improvement over a 5+ vs psychic and immune to force weapons. One is conditional and doesn't come up against a number of armies. The other is present all the time. You will take 15% less wounds and results, period. That's better than 33% less wounds from psychic powers and immunity from instagib on force (which only affected two models in our army, the Canoness and Celestine).

Secondly, we do not know if we will get a psychic hood or not. For all we know, Confessors can take a Pope Hat of Protection that prevents psychic powers within 24 on a 4+. Or Laud Hailers reduce enemy Ld within 24" by -1. No idea. We are/were an anti-psyker list.

I'm negative in regards to how GW treats Sisters because I have a perverse enjoyment of being right all the time

I will take this as the joke it was. laugh


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And before we get uppity, yes I know that SoF is inferior to SotM. We're not comparing those two though. We're comparing old SoF to new SoF. It is better now.

sirrah wrote:I definitely prefer Ward on rules than Ward on fluff for Sisters. The metagame is kind of reliant on Wardified rules now, otherwise Sisters will be such a failure we'll never see a proper release again. Ward on fluff would mean the Sisters release would be the only to have the featured factor lose every major conflict. (except choking the enemy with Sororitas corpses?)

Nope, the meta is Kelly / Cruddace - ified rules

People always forget that...

pretre wrote:It looks like the Easy Bake Oven will be back. The entry in the first part indicates that HF are available to Retributors again. 4xHF in an Immo is still a good time. Especially since they are the only ones with Rending now.

Why would you give up access to one of few str 8 weapons we have the codex that can shoot past 12"? Unless Sister heavy flamers can shoot 3 times or something wacky like that then its probbaly not worth it to take anything in heavy support but Exorcists. the codex receives are very limited number of high strength shooting over 24". There are only 3 existing guns in the codex with a strength over 5. They are the multi-melta, the exorcist missile launcher, and the meltagun. Also there are two guns unless we get some new wapons with a range over 24" and that is the heavy bolter and the Exorcist missile launcher. The new codex should have plugged some holes in the existing one and no I don't mean assault. Now more than ever we need strong shooting since we are almost entirely reliant on it and it with some serious weapons additions we aren't getting it. I suppose a possibility exists of shelling out a signifianct number of heavy bolters in the army along with manufacture of new weapons that have no representation in the current codex, but that is doubtful however since I'm not seeing any creative breakthroughs in the rules.

pretre wrote:You will take 15% less wounds and results, period.

... no, because POWER ARMOR.

pretre wrote:Secondly, we do not know if we will get a psychic hood or not.

I repeat myself:

Melissia wrote:We're not going to get it. I don't know why people are expecting game-breaking wargear. It is very unreasonable.

We're about as likely to get a psychic hood as we are to get an infantry-wielded punisher cannon.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:You will take 15% less wounds and results, period.

... no, because POWER ARMOR.

Great use of your shift key! 15% less wounds from AP1/2/Power Weapons/Dangerous Terrain/etc. and 15% less vehicle results, period. Obviously it doesn't do anything to normal attacks that don't go through power armor. Thanks for pointing out the obvious though!

Melissia wrote:We're about as likely to get a psychic hood as we are to get an infantry-wielded punisher cannon.

Sorry, forgot you were on the design team!
Notice that I also listed ld modifiers as psychic defense as well (which you conveniently forgot to quote). I bet your good name that there will be some sort of psychic defense in the wargear section.

@Petre thank you for some reasoning here.

@Melissia have you seen the Codexes that Ward and Cruddance have done? Ok one is crap (nids) but the others have produced pretty decent armies. They are not going to just uber nerf us for LOLZ. They would be the perverse ones if they did that!

Like I have said over and over whilst I dislike the fact we don't have our 2 most useful Faiths' any more there will be many times the new Faith system will help us a lot.

Dominions riding around in Rhinos with 4 twin linked BS4 Meltas, and our Rhino has 1/6 chance of saving any hits. Scouting too. That ain't something people can ignore really.

Again - it will come down to points and gear. If points are the same THEN it will be nerfed and crap. If we get rubbish gear like you predict THEN it will be crap. Just look at the last two Codexes Ward did. Sheesh. Some of his ubercheeze will seep through into some part of the 'dex. I hope.

Why do I seem to be the only one to actuall test this stuff out? Is it somewhat inaccurate becuase I'm using the old point system and wargear? Sure. but I would love to see more people take their sisters to the field even under the old wargear and point system just to give the faith point system and updated stats/stuff a shake.

I want to reiterate my mini battle (and I will be playing another, larger battle soon) that yea, faith sucks as we can't use it on the enemies turn anymore, but it isn't crippling. I was happy with the results of my cannoness attached to the repentia in my game. Taking out half my opponets list with half my list against a heavy H2H unit was nice.

That said, I would really encourage others to take it to the streets! I want to see Easy Bake Oven tried out on a battlefield. Use the old point system and test out the new ruels. THEN you can back up some of your arguments about faith/I 3/ect. with actual play.

I know you negative nancies will say "that won't be accurate as the wargear and points will change". Sure, they will, but the conclusions I can draw from fielding my nuns on the field with the mixed dex is a hell of a lot more accurate than your speculations. And it'll still give the feel of how things will be, even if the results will be moderatley different.

pretre wrote:Sorry, forgot you were on the design team!

If I was on the design team, the codex would have been far better. And yes, I firmly stand by that statement. This was a very rushed codex, I will be completely and utterly without surprise when there's no psychic defense.

gr1m_dan wrote:@Melissia have you seen the Codexes that Ward and Cruddance have done? Ok one is crap (nids) but the others have produced pretty decent armies.

They also were real codices where GW had an incentive to produce good rules because they were releasing models to sell alongside them.

gr1m_dan wrote:Some of his ubercheeze will seep through into some part of the 'dex. I hope.

There's a difference between hoping and expecting. I hoped this codex wouldn't suck. But I kept my actual expectations realistic. It's a PDF codex, they all suck

Melissia wrote:If I was on the design team, the codex would have been far better.

Shudder. I imagine an alternate universe with Celestine's Law instead of Draigo's...

This was a very rushed codex, I will be completely and utterly without surprise when there's no psychic defense.

You go girl!