[Kings of War] Mantic Fantasy News & Rumors

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**Pacific**

Elf Eagle Chariot.

scarletsquig wrote:
Just remembered, perfect solution (spending way too much time on dakka can help sometimes!)

http://eccentricminiatures.com/sprues.html

Eccentric minis, good alternate heads hard plastic, $2 for 16.

And.. they also have some spiked heavy maces and scourges (with hands attached!) that might do nicely for the basilean sisters.

Thanks for posting that, was after something similar for my Gamezone Dwarves.

**BobtheInquisitor**

scarletsquig wrote:
Anyone know a good source of alternate heads for those men at arms?

Like the minis, getting loads of them, don't like 3 of the heads, and we're not getting spares on the sprue.

Ideally, something with the same helmet style.
)

I'm planning on using some of the spare heads from the Revenants sprue--the ones that look like fully enclosed helms or the ones where the skull faces can pass as "intimidating" faceplates.

Without seeing the actual minis, it's hard to tell what other model ranges have parts that would fit. Maybe some Greek helmets for officers or specialist spearmen would work?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

scarletsquig wrote:
Just remembered, perfect solution (spending way too much time on dakka can help sometimes!)

http://eccentricminiatures.com/sprues.html

Eccentric minis, good alternate heads hard plastic, $2 for 16.

And.. they also have some spiked heavy maces and scourges (with hands attached!) that might do nicely for the basilean sisters.

If those arms fit the Mantic sisters, you just saved those sisters minis. Ronnie should give you some stock options.

**overtyrant**

nkelsch wrote:
God, do you know how impossible it would be to push that 2-fixed wheeled cart without any form of steering? That backwards chariot is a physical impossibility as the beasts of burden can't steer from behind due to the way carts work.

Animals can pull a static-wheeled cart, but to push it, it would need a form of steering in the wheels.

Whilst I'm not a huge fan of it, it is for a Fantasy game setting where the orxs riding it don't exist and giant dragon's fly through the sky breathing fire whilst wizards cast fireballs into the ranks of enemies!

**nkelsch**

overtyrant wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
God, do you know how impossible it would be to push that 2-fixed wheeled cart without any form of steering? That backwards chariot is a physical impossibility as the beasts of burden can't steer from behind due to the way carts work.

Animals can pull a static-wheeled cart, but to push it, it would need a form of steering in the wheels.

Whilst I'm not a huge fan of it, it is for a Fantasy game setting where the orxs riding it don't exist and giant dragon's fly through the sky breathing fire whilst wizards cast fireballs into the ranks of enemies!

Suspension of disbelief doesn't excuse basic mechanical failures... it makes the model look broken not to be explicitly designed to actually be a working 'reverse chariot'.

GW pumpwagon is a good example of rear-steering with a rudder wheel behind the two fixed wheels. It is absurd but not physically impossible. This chariot would fishtail and crash on itself within moments.

**overtyrant**

nkelsch wrote:
overtyrant wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
God, do you know how impossible it would be to push that 2-fixed wheeled cart without any form of steering? That backwards chariot is a physical impossibility as the beasts of burden can't steer from behind due to the way carts work.

Animals can pull a static-wheeled cart, but to push it, it would need a form of steering in the wheels.

Whilst I'm not a huge fan of it, it is for a Fantasy game setting where the orxs riding it don't exist and giant dragon's fly through the sky breathing fire whilst wizards cast fireballs into the ranks of enemies!

Suspension of disbelief doesn't excuse basic mechanical failures... it makes the model look broken not to be explicitly designed to actually be a working 'reverse chariot'.

GW pumpwagon is a good example of rear-steering with a rudder wheel behind the two fixed wheels. It is absurd but not physically impossible. This chariot would fishtail and crash on itself within moments.

Not with the standard orc mentality. If an orc think it will work it will work! Just like if an ork painted his truck red it will make it go faster! If this was for any other army I would agree with you, but since its for orcs....

**nkelsch**

overtyrant wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
overtyrant wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
God, do you know how impossible it would be to push that 2-fixed wheeled cart without any form of steering? That backwards chariot is a physical impossibility as the beasts of burden can't steer from behind due to the way carts work.

Animals can pull a static-wheeled cart, but to push it, it would need a form of steering in the wheels.

Whilst I'm not a huge fan of it, it is for a Fantasy game setting where the orxs riding it don't exist and giant dragon's fly through the sky breathing fire whilst wizards cast fireballs into the ranks of enemies!

Suspension of disbelief doesn't excuse basic mechanical failures... it makes the model look broken not to be explicitly designed to actually be a working 'reverse chariot'.

GW pumpwagon is a good example of rear-steering with a rudder wheel behind the two fixed wheels. It is absurd but not physically impossible. This chariot would fishtail and crash on itself within moments.

Not with the standard orc mentality. If an orc think it will work it will work! Just like if an ork painted his truck red it will make it go faster! If this was for any other army I would agree with you, but since its for orcs....

So Mantic's fantasy orcs now explain the failures in their models with GW's 40k psychic resonance for fungus men fluff? Most Orcs out there in the multiple fantasy worlds are not ignorant buffoon creatures who explain away action with willpower and psychic resonance. Even LotR orcs needed to build functional machines to lob rocks. They had pretty advanced catapults that worked due to physics, not by wishing.

Are people really falling over themselves to defend a broken concept that badly? People will just model it like a regular chariot because it looks broken otherwise.

**Da Boss**

Yeah, the chariot thing looks wrong. It'd be better if it had some other configuration.

**scarletsquig**

^Actually, Mantic's Orc background is really good.

They are intelligent creatures who live short, brutal lives. Live out in the cold windswept plains. Average lifespan is 10-15 years, maybe 20 if they're lucky enough to die of old age (rarely happens, most don't make into their second decade).

So, they have a bit of a mortality complex, which combined with their harsh "eke out a survival exposed to the elements" lives results in their motivation for being evil and going off and attacking anyone that has a better life than they were given.

They see a city of the elves, glowing with nice warm fires, knowing that everyone in there is immortal and enjoying fine wine, laughter and love and will do for all eternity, whereas they will be a corpse in the mud in a few years time whatever they do.

Which, of course, gives them every reason in the world to go down to that city and try to smash it to pieces and kill everyone inside.

Then, on top of that, they have a culture based around sagas passed down through generations about heroic krudgers that did great deeds... so each leader of an orc tribe (and those who would kill him and become leader, too!) wants to carve a name out for himself before he dies.

**Da Boss**

That is fething awesome. Awesome.
Wow. I love that idea- the short lifespan and rage at the futility of existence angle really sells it. They'd have to be pretty intelligent of course, otherwise their culture would utterly disintegrate. Do they age rapidly, or is it a magical curse that kills them off at age 15?

I always felt the orcs in LOTR got a real bum deal from the gods who essentially failed to protect them from Morgoth. They put the sun in the sky for the express purpose of driving them underground, ffs. Reality was against them, but they couldn't help being what they were. Made the whole bring down the Valar angle a lot more interesting to me when I thought about it.
Interesting stuff like that is why I was in love with the Orc archetype when I took up wargaming, and I've always been a bit disappointed by the GW treatment of the archetype.

SS, where can I access more of this background? The cool background sections on the mantic site went missing a while ago, are they back up?

**scarletsquig**

^ Most of it made it into the KoW rulebook, but other parts of it didn't, and it's all been deleted fom the Mantic site unfortunately.

It shares a lot with LotR, in that they are a creation of an insane/evil god purely for the purpose of war. Only their god is now dead, leaving them as nothing more than a plague on the world in the eyes of the other races.

The basic description for them describes them quite well:

Orcs are among the vilest of all creatures; evil beings created for war.
They delight in destruction, all their essence is bent towards violence, mind and body. They despise beauty and goodness, finding their presence painful, and do all they can to bring what is right in the world to ash.
It is said that if they ever achieve this aim, they will then fight among themselves in the ruins of the realms of better races, unheeding and uncaring, hatred driving them on to ultimate self-destruction.

Basically, nihilism incarnate.

**decker_cky**

I think everything you mentioned there is in the rulebook.

**Da Boss**

That is unfortunate! Perhaps I will have to pick up the rulebook to have a look at this background. It's exactly the sort of stuff I like in a fantasy because while it is unlike anything that currently exists, it is still understandable and "human".

Orcs as the personification of envy is a great idea.

Some beer and not enough sleep has my brain now working overtime on this concept.

**overtyrant**

nkelsch wrote:
overtyrant wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
overtyrant wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
God, do you know how impossible it would be to push that 2-fixed wheeled cart without any form of steering? That backwards chariot is a physical impossibility as the beasts of burden can't steer from behind due to the way carts work.

Animals can pull a static-wheeled cart, but to push it, it would need a form of steering in the wheels.

Whilst I'm not a huge fan of it, it is for a Fantasy game setting where the orxs riding it don't exist and giant dragon's fly through the sky breathing fire whilst wizards cast fireballs into the ranks of enemies!

Suspension of disbelief doesn't excuse basic mechanical failures... it makes the model look broken not to be explicitly designed to actually be a working 'reverse chariot'.

GW pumpwagon is a good example of rear-steering with a rudder wheel behind the two fixed wheels. It is absurd but not physically impossible. This chariot would fishtail and crash on itself within moments.

Not with the standard orc mentality. If an orc think it will work it will work! Just like if an ork painted his truck red it will make it go faster! If this was for any other army I would agree with you, but since its for orcs....

So Mantic's fantasy orcs now explain the failures in their models with GW's 40k psychic resonance for fungus men fluff? Most Orcs out there in the multiple fantasy worlds are not ignorant buffoon creatures who explain away action with willpower and psychic resonance. Even LotR orcs needed to build functional machines to lob rocks. They had pretty advanced catapults that worked due to physics, not by wishing.

Are people really falling over themselves to defend a broken concept that badly? People will just model it like a regular chariot because it looks broken otherwise.

I still stand by my comment but since the direction Mantic took with there orcs is not the silly type (for what of a better term) and more the brutal type I will admit that the fight wagon does not really fit with the rest of there orcs.

**frozenwastes**

spoiler tags on the images because you've already seen them, but I still want to comment.

Cavalry:

Spoiler:

These might be my favorite miniatures Mantic has ever made. I could see using them as proxy Cygnar or Menoth cavalry in Warmachine. Very big and very fantasy looking. If you want human fantasy cavalry these may end up being the go to models. I'd like to see pictures at more angles of these guys as soon as possible!

Men at Arms

Spoiler:

**scarletsquig**

decker_cky wrote:
I think everything you mentioned there is in the rulebook.

Most of it is, but a fair bit of it is missing. I did manage to find one snippet that I'd quoted in a forum post though:

GAKAMAK'S CHARGE

Brass-mouthed cannons barked smoke and flame, rocking back on iron-bound carriages with each report. Goblins toiled quickly to reload them as Slavemasters walked up and down the line of earthworks, whipping and kicking those they deemed too slovenly.

Atop his mighty Gore Arsewind, Gakamak the Unstoppable bared yellowing teeth in a hideous Orcish smile.

“East tower is almost down,” he grunted in the thick language of the Orcs, almost to himself. He turned his head and looked down to where his lieutenants waited nervously on foot around him. “Krossgar, get your troops to the foot of the banking. You will attack first after the wretches go in.” He fixed the Headcrusher captain before him with a glare. The Orc began to return it twofold and thought better of it, bowing low – he was not strong enough yet to best Gakamak in a challenge. “Yes, lord,” he growled, and marched away, armour plates clanking.

Gakamak gave orders to all his underlings, Orc and Goblin, as the cannons spoke once more. The weapons had been taken from the Abyssal Dwarfs last week, and now were being put to good use against their makers. Smoke puffed along the line of the walls, ornate metalwork denting, stonework disintegrating. He gave a snort of satisfaction as a tower slipped forward like a stab victim stumbling to its knees, blocks coming apart as it turned from a building to a pile of rubble in front of him. Moments later, the rumble of its collapse reached his ears. A roaring cheer went up from his army.

Gakamak smiled again at the destruction, felt his heart pound at the sight of something unmade. He’d rip it down, all of it, rip it to pieces, smash it, burn it and dance on the ashes. He chuckled in his barrel chest, deep and phlegmy.

“Told you. East tower,” he said, gesturing with a massive, clawed hand. “Now sound the attack. Goblins in, first wave. Tonight we dine on Dwarf flesh.” He flipped back his visor, threw back his head and roared along with the bray of harsh trumpets. As one, his army joined him, and Gakamak’s blood sang with the joy of war.

Quite like that piece since it
a) Shows tactical thinking on the part of the orcs.. battering the towers down with artillery, then sending in the goblins as the first wave of meatshields, and
b) Gets across the sheer delight that they get from seeing things being destroyed.

There two units were not done by the same sculptor, were they?

Both sculpted by Remy. The men at arms were digitally scanned and heavily reworked by mantic's 3d guys though.

**judgedoug**

Da Boss wrote:
Yeah, the chariot thing looks wrong. It'd be better if it had some other configuration.

The Orc Chariot is a multipurpose kit that can be assembled as a Chariot or a Fight Wagon.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Scarlet, if Remy did the Men at Arms, why do they have GW elf spearman hands and chimpanzee arms?

Not that I'm not getting some of them.

**NAVARRO**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Scarlet, if Remy did the Men at Arms, why do they have GW elf spearman hands and chimpanzee arms?

Not that I'm not getting some of them.

Because Remy according to Mantic does not " get" multipart... the parts that look like pants are probably done by some "expert" in multipart

**judgedoug**

nkelsch wrote:
So Mantic's fantasy orcs now explain the failures in their models with GW's 40k psychic resonance for fungus men fluff?

Where did anyone from Mantic say this? Or did some random person on a forum say it and you are using it as a basis to attack Mantic directly somehow?

nkelsch wrote:

Are people really falling over themselves to defend a broken concept that badly? People will just model it like a regular chariot because it looks broken otherwise.

"These bizarre contraptions consist of a wheeled platform crammed full with eager Morax at the front, pushed by two gores..."

There's Morax on a platform, and Gores push them directly forward. That model isn't a broken concept, it's a PERFECT EXECUTION of the concept. FFS.

This is an example of a model designed for Kings of War, and not Another Game System. I will be getting many of them, for my Kings of War Orc army, since it fits their style perfectly and is an excellent unit.

This sort of like that Celestial Hurricanum piece of gak nonsense that GW makes for Empire. It's designed for WHFB, and not any other game system. It looks absolutely fething slowed, laughably so, but it's a perfect execution of the concept - just like the Fight Wagon is. So you may not like it, just as I fething hate the Celesial Hurricanum garbage, but no one is forcing you to use it, just as I don't use that piece of gak for my Empire army (or the Empire War Rooster... man GW really pulled out the worse designs possible for the 8th ed Empire, huh?)

**scarletsquig**

@NAVARRO: That's a possible explanation. It has been noted that the 3d guys struggle a bit with organic, soft detail while being excellent at hard angles and lines. Captain Grumpypants from deadzone is a good example... no helmet, horrible mini, add a helmet, absolutely stunning mini... the face was *that* bad, and now that I think about it, looks quite similar to some of these men-at-arms.

I stayed out of that particular debate (it got ugly quick when people were jumping down Cyporiean's throat just for being nice and providing a bit of casual insider info), but I found that statement odd considering that Remy has in fact done a lot of multipart kit sculpting.. in fact the Warpath corporation marines that Remy sculpted were the first minis that Mantic ever produced that had separate heads and arms on *all* the minis, not just some of them.

**nkelsch**

judgedoug wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
So Mantic's fantasy orcs now explain the failures in their models with GW's 40k psychic resonance for fungus men fluff?

Where did anyone from Mantic say this? Or did some random person on a forum say it and you are using it as a basis to attack Mantic directly somehow?

A member of the bucket brigade said it... Same way they said the Ogres have no genitals hence the horrible knock kneed poses.

nkelsch wrote:

Are people really falling over themselves to defend a broken concept that badly? People will just model it like a regular chariot because it looks broken otherwise.

"These bizarre contraptions consist of a wheeled platform crammed full with eager Morax at the front, pushed by two gores..."

There's Morax on a platform, and Gores push them directly forward. That model isn't a broken concept, it's a PERFECT EXECUTION of the concept. FFS.

This is an example of a model designed for Kings of War, and not Another Game System. I will be getting many of them, for my Kings of War Orc army, since it fits their style perfectly and is an excellent unit.

This sort of like that Celestial Hurricanum piece of gak nonsense that GW makes for Empire. It's designed for WHFB, and not any other game system. It looks absolutely fething slowed, laughably so, but it's a perfect execution of the concept - just like the Fight Wagon is. So you may not like it, just as I fething hate the Celesial Hurricanum garbage, but no one is forcing you to use it, just as I don't use that piece of gak for my Empire army (or the Empire War Rooster... man GW really pulled out the worse designs possible for the 8th ed Empire, huh?)

The fight-wagon cannot function the way the model is designed and it is a terrible model. Fine as a chariot, lazy and stupid as a '2 models one kit' design. The 'fluff' describes and impossible piece of technology which would fishtail and crash the way it is currently built and be impossible to drive. If they had build a cart with steering and rear-animal pushing which actually function, they might be ok... but they lazily thought turning a chariot around was 'hey now we are like GW and make dual kits too!' The fight-wagon is an unreasonable, indefensible model. It looks fine as a chariot, it looks like a 5-year old assembled his model wrong as a backwards chariot as a fight-wagon.

While the Celestial Hurricanum may be a silly pointless contraption, it is at least a valid horse-drawn wagon which won't immediately crash and implode upon being pulled by horses. You can't steer a chariot with fixed wheels from behind, especially by dumb animals. It simply isn't possible with the way that device is designed. But if 'GW sucks too' is the bucket you need to carry mantic's water in, more power to you. Most people didn't pay GW based upon concept art and don't have to now consider a refund due to a terrible model. That is the difference between 'poor models' by GW and PP and mantic... People can choose not to buy PP and GW's flawed models opposed to already having been stuck funding them with poor execution.

I look forward to alternative fightwagon conversions which are designed to actually work. Orc modelers are really good at such conversions.

**Cyporiean**

Why are you even in this thread?

**NAVARRO**

scarletsquig wrote:
@NAVARRO: That's a possible explanation. It has been noted that the 3d guys struggle a bit with organic, soft detail while being excellent at hard angles and lines.

I stayed out of that particular debate (it got ugly quick when people were jumping down Cyporiean's throat just for being nice and providing a bit of casual insider info), but I found that statement odd considering that Remy has in fact done a lot of multipart kit sculpting.. in fact the Warpath corporation marines that Remy sculpted were the first minis that Mantic ever produced that had separate heads and arms on *all* the minis, not just some of them.

Yeah I know, I found it odd and also absurd in many levels, but lets leave it at that.

I for one would appreciate to see more from him and less from the other current mantic sculptors... There are very good sculptors outhere, like Diaz etc, mantic should hire those instead... and a decent painter.

**overtyrant**

Rule Number One is Be Polite; thanks ~ Manchu

**Polonius**

Cyporiean wrote:
Why are you even in this thread?

The same reason people white knight in GW threads. Consciously it's about "telling the truth" and "fighting against groupthink." Really it's about being the center of attention.

**nkelsch**

Polonius wrote:
Cyporiean wrote:
Why are you even in this thread?

The same reason people white knight in GW threads. Consciously it's about "telling the truth" and "fighting against groupthink." Really it's about being the center of attention.

I am a serious Orc Collector and would have loved to have another source for orc and goblin models... But Mantic keeps failing.

There are many others who have shown dislike with these models so my opinion is not alone... but some people can't stand any criticism to stand and have the need to bury and dissatisfaction with Mantic at all.

If Mantic wants to design 'dual kits' this was not a good execution of one.

As someone who has been burned by their false concept art, I think it is important whenever they miss the mark on what they promised in regards to concept art and quality sculpting, it is worth discussing in the public record.

**NAVARRO**

nkelsch wrote:
Most people didn't pay GW based upon concept art and don't have to now consider a refund due to a terrible model. That is the difference between 'poor models' by GW and PP and mantic... People can choose not to buy PP and GW's flawed models opposed to already having been stuck funding them with poor execution.
.

I don't get that, I mean if you have a problem with taking the risks of Kickstarters then the blame is on you for taking the damn risk in the first place.

**nkelsch**

NAVARRO wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Most people didn't pay GW based upon concept art and don't have to now consider a refund due to a terrible model. That is the difference between 'poor models' by GW and PP and mantic... People can choose not to buy PP and GW's flawed models opposed to already having been stuck funding them with poor execution.
.

I don't get that, I mean if you have a problem with taking the risks of Kickstarters then the blame is on you for taking the damn risk in the first place.

Oh I learned my lesson the hard way that Mantic has a 'bait and switch' model with how they use Remy's time on sculpting and that they cannot be trusted in regards to concept art. At least now I can see the models are terrible before I choose to buy them at retail or not, hence what this thread is all about.

**overtyrant**

Well they got the model bang on to the description and the rest of there orc line is great, haters gonna hate. I really dislike Mantics Dwarfs/chaos Dwarfs, there nuns and some of there elves (infact there is quite a bit of Mantics stuff I'm not a fan of) so I am no white knight for Mantic. Was also very disappointed with the quality of the boards and tokens in PP and DKH (great rule set though), but I don't feel the need to scream at the top of my lungs at every opportunity saying how naughty Mantic are,

**Polonius**

nkelsch wrote:

I am a serious Orc Collector and would have loved to have another source for orc and goblin models... But Mantic keeps failing.

Some stuff is a failure. Some stuff is great. A lot of it is pretty mediocre, and some people will like it and some people won't. You know, personal taste and all that.

There are many others who have shown dislike with these models so my opinion is not alone... but some people can't stand any criticism to stand and have the need to bury and dissatisfaction with Mantic at all.

Well, a lot of people feel a personal touch with Mantic. They're approachable, easy to contact, and listen to feedback. People want them to succeed, and certainly don't always have the most objective viewpoint.

So, that leaves two choices for a person in your situation. You can comment on failings in models, and raise the concerns that you have, and then allow the conversation to move on. Or, you can make it your personal mission to change the minds of people that, by all admission, are clouded with emotion.

I'm glad to see you've taken the mature course.

If Mantic wants to design 'dual kits' this was not a good execution of one.

It doesn't look great. OTOH, it's a really dumb idea, so I'm not sure what anybody expected.

As someone who has been burned by their false concept art, I think it is important whenever they miss the mark on what they promised in regards to concept art and quality sculpting, it is worth discussing in the public record.

There are a lot of loaded phrases in this sentence. Concept art can't be "false," unless you think Mantic intentionally showed concept art they had no intention of using. My memory is hazy, but I seem to remember them throwing concept art out pretty quickly, with the understanding that it was a rough sketch.

You seem to be confusing backing a kickstarter, and ordering a pizza. Yeah, if the picture of the pizza has pepperoni, and yours doesn't, that's a problem. But when somebody say, "I have an idea, and this is a sketch we spent 20 minutes on, do you want to front some cash?" it's understood by all parties that concepts can change. Maybe you thought you were going to get something that looked exactly like the sketch, but you'd be in the minority.

As for quality, I think we're all a little disappointed. Not much we can say about that, but about half of these kits are deeply flawed. But then again, nobody is disagreeing with that.

And we're all discussing this. I'm not sure Dakka is "public record," whatever you seem to think that means.