GW committing a slow corporate suicide?

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**DarthOvious**

PhantomViper wrote: Yeaaaaah, I think you might have misunderstood what the store owner was talking about...

Do you have any idea of the amount of terrain needed to play a competitive game of Infinity?

This much (the vehicles present on the tables are terrain pieces as well btw):

An average 40K table has around 8-10 different terrain pieces. An Infinity table has close to 50!

Now multiply that by 5 different tables that you would need to run a 10 person tournament and tell me that your average local GW store has that much terrain available...

Well he did give me the impression that it was more than you would need for other games, but I took what he said along with not seeing much terrain about. I may be mistaken but I thought he did say that those infinity players brought their own terrain but perhaps that is on top of anything else he may provide in the store. I'll have a look in two weeks time to see what the deal is and make a proper note of it.

The store also has more than 5 tables. They have quite a few but I will have a look next time. Also like I said, they play a lot of different things there, so I think a lot of card games are played too, like Magic for instance.

**Kaptajn Congoboy**

And this is why we're trying to establish, locally, that Infinity players contribute to a stock of Infinity-spesific terrain at our LGS.

**theQuanz**

I just looked at the GW Website...it took me to the Australian version and holy crap those prices are ridiculous.

Beating a dead horse, but wow...these people aren't going to be around much longer at this rate. By 2015 I think GW will be dead and gone.

**weeble1000**

Barksdale wrote:
weeble1000 wrote:[
Just because you are not a fan of calling GW products luxury goods does not mean that they are not luxury goods. If you want more than you can afford how is this GW's problem? Get a better paying job, or just buy less product. Another possibility is pay cheaper prices at some of the competitors. Unfortunately, you are sacrifcing alot of the quality customization options that the GW plastic kits give. Again, your choice.

I never said that GW products were not luxury goods. I simply argued that being a non-essential good or service does not ipso facto mean that one cannot have a reasonable opinion about the value of that good or service. Luis Vuitton handbags are quitisentially luxury goods, but I bet that there are plenty of folks that feel a Louis Vuitton handbag is overpriced when compared to other high end designer handbags.

I do not like the argument that because hobby products are luxury goods, customers can either buy them or shut up about it. Luxury or not, GW produces goods in a competitive market. And the GW brand does not have much value as a status symbol, by the way. I do not pay whatever GW charges for a Storm Raven kit on the basis that it is a conspicuous good. I do not walk into a gaming store, unpack my Storm Raven model, and expect other gamers to know that I am cool/affluent enough to have a Games Workshop product.

There are many reasons to buy GW products, but consumers also have many reasons to not purchase GW products, one of which is the price point. As you have argued, GW's plastic injection molded kits contain many "bonus" bits, therefore increasing the value of the kits. This is true, but it is also true of many competing products, namely because GW exists in a competitive market.

If you see 80 dollars of value in a Storm Raven kit, that's fine, but others are more than free to decide that 80 dollars is an unreasonably high price for the value of the prduct. GW's generally high prices across its product range also tends to erode the value of its products, as a gamer cannot play a game with but a single Storm Raven model, for example.

**Howard A Treesong**

Lanrak wrote:
When the game developers were left alone to develop and support a wide range of games for gamers, GW doubled its turn over every 3 years.
Since Kirby decided GW plc '...is in the buisness of selling toy soldier to children...' they have lost sales volumes ever since.

Before some one points out Kirby was at GW from 1986 ,he lead the managment buy out in 1992 etc.
He only started to 'influence ' games development in 1998.(40k 3rd ed .)And had 'heavy influence' on game development since the early 2000s.

I'd like to draw a correlation between their dropping of games development and their decline in sales. It's rather hard to say for certain because of the many other factors, but a big problem with GW for me is that they aren't a games workshop now, they are a Warhammer workshop. They almost totally focus on Warhammer and LOTR, and throw the very occasional bone of something like Space Hulk which was similar to previous releases, and Dreadfleet which was just poorly designed. GW used to produce some quality stuff, they lead the market for a reason, they made a huge range of stuff that pulled in gamers of all sorts. Now if you don't want Warhammer, they don't want you.

The price increases have become a joke. Every summer they now stick about 20% on. GW have always been known for being expensive and having dubious price increases, but it's just ridiculous and working on a regular cycle. I gave up playing GW years ago and mostly do other stuff because they sucked all the fun out of it by pushing the prices through the roof and killed all the many things that made their part of the the hobby fun.

**Palindrome**

weeble1000 wrote:
If you see 80 dollars of value in a Storm Raven kit, that's fine, but others are more than free to decide that 80 dollars is an unreasonably high price for the value of the prduct. GW's generally high prices across its product range also tends to erode the value of its products, as a gamer cannot play a game with but a single Storm Raven model, for example.

this is thrown into sharp focus when you compare what you get in a GW kit with what actual model companies sell. GW tank kits are like lego when comparied to the likes of Tamiya which actually cost less than a similar GW kit.

**ruff**

Palindrome wrote:
weeble1000 wrote:
If you see 80 dollars of value in a Storm Raven kit, that's fine, but others are more than free to decide that 80 dollars is an unreasonably high price for the value of the prduct. GW's generally high prices across its product range also tends to erode the value of its products, as a gamer cannot play a game with but a single Storm Raven model, for example.

Don't I know it.. I have put together many Dragon Models of WWII vehicles and there insane with the amount of parts they have.. Then I see GW tank kits and there like a vacation to put together for a third of the parts and twice as much as a museum quality model..

**SilverMK2**

ruff wrote:Then I see GW tank kits and there like a vacation to put together for a third of the parts and twice as much as a museum quality model..

A third of the parts? I have a 1:72 soviet tank model which has more parts than a Rhino and it is about 2.5 inches long

**ruff**

I was referring to the gw kit being a third of the parts compared to another kit, and twice the cost..lol..

**SilverMK2**

ruff wrote:I was referring to the gw kit being a third of the parts compared to another kit, and twice the cost..lol..

I know, I was expanding on the point by saying that a cheap model tank which is about 2.5 inches long has more parts than a rhino

**redkeyboard**

I am suprised they dont sell them ready built and then charge another 20% for assembling it for us.

**Platuan4th**

redkeyboard wrote:I am suprised they dont sell them ready built and then charge another 20% for assembling it for us.

But then they couldn't push the HHHobby.

**Pacific**

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:And this is why we're trying to establish, locally, that Infinity players contribute to a stock of Infinity-spesific terrain at our LGS.

Yes right.. it helps of course as well that you only have to paint up 10-12 models max for your force. You will have that much more time to devote to making some terrain. My friends and I are all contributing to a couple of tables, and as something new (we haven't really bothered with terrain so much before) are actually quite enjoying the fresh challenge.

**Kingsley**

Platuan4th wrote:
redkeyboard wrote:I am suprised they dont sell them ready built and then charge another 20% for assembling it for us.

But then they couldn't push the HHHobby.

What's with this "HHHobby" meme?

**H.B.M.C.**

Something us Black Knights devised for the express purpose of pissing off White Knights.

No, not really. Ask KillKrazy. It's his invention IIRC.

**brettz123**

helium42 wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:The Hobbit and 40k 6th edition are right around the corner. Unless GW screws up massively, I think they're actually poised to surge dramatically ahead. Does anyone else remember how GW did back when the Lord of the Rings movies were coming out? Right now, GW's debatably in a bit of a holding pattern, but they can afford to bide their time and wait until these big new games bolster their playerbase dramatically.

GW will see a major surge in revenue from the release of the Hobbit, but how long will that last? A year or maybe two?

I disagree that 6th edition will have the same effect that the Hobbit release will have. I'm not sure if people outside the hobby will jump in simply because a new edition is released. Most people outside of the wargaming circles are blissfully unaware that 6th edition is coming out, so how will they be pulled in by such a thing? If anything, raising prices right before an edition change might put some people off of picking up the new rulebook. I know I'll be waiting for the small paperback version that will likely come with the 6th edition starter set to come out and then pick one up on Ebay.

Two movies over two years so probably a three year bubble based on the previous movies. And it will most likely be a sizeable bubble. When GW releases the complete set of dwarves from the Hobbit it will be a huge seller.

**J.Black**

Fetterkey wrote:
What's with this "HHHobby" meme?

It seems to be an in-joke for the MODs and DCMs...... I wouldn't worry about it

**H.B.M.C.**

Yep. 2 years of movies. 3 years of bubble. 3 years of Kirby using that bubble's inevitable burst as an excuse for why they're not performing so well across 2016-2018.

**brettz123**

Barksdale wrote:
Just because you are not a fan of calling GW products luxury goods does not mean that they are not luxury goods. If you want more than you can afford how is this GW's problem? Get a better paying job, or just buy less product. Another possibility is pay cheaper prices at some of the competitors. Unfortunately, you are sacrifcing alot of the quality customization options that the GW plastic kits give. Again, your choice.

It is a huge problem for GW because their sales volume has been drastically slashed. That means they have a smaller and smaller customer base. I'm assuming you understand that this is not what a business wants correct? If GW keeps this trend going (and we have every reason to believe they will) the company could very realistically go out of business.

**Kirasu**

I think when comparing Forgeworld Prices to GW it's fairly important to add on atleast a 15% discount to GW prices since you *can* order from the warstore (Sorry I wont discuss Australian prices, they're beyond absurd and don't really deserve much discussion other than to say they're abnormally high)

A lot of people also can get up to 30% off retail prices however its almost impossible to get discounts on FW without resorting to buying models made from stolen molds/recasts from Russia/China

**brettz123**

Kirasu wrote:I think when comparing Forgeworld Prices to GW it's fairly important to add on atleast a 15% discount to GW prices since you *can* order from the warstore (Sorry I wont discuss Australian prices, they're beyond absurd and don't really deserve much discussion other than to say they're abnormally high)

A lot of people also can get up to 30% off retail prices however its almost impossible to get discounts on FW without resorting to buying models made from stolen molds/recasts from Russia/China

Don't forget the 15% shipping cost of forge world unless you spend 250 pounds or more.

**Bobthehero**

IIRC you can order your FW products to be sent at your local GW store and avoid paying shipping fees.

**SilverMK2**

Kirasu wrote:I think when comparing Forgeworld Prices to GW it's fairly important to add on atleast a 15% discount to GW prices since you *can* order from the warstore (Sorry I wont discuss Australian prices, they're beyond absurd and don't really deserve much discussion other than to say they're abnormally high)

A lot of people also can get up to 30% off retail prices however its almost impossible to get discounts on FW without resorting to buying models made from stolen molds/recasts from Russia/China

I'm not really sure what the use of comparing the prices ofgoods from one part of a company to the prices of goods from another part of the same company is. Forge world does produce some good kits but my god are their prices set way too high for the amount of warpage etc you get with some of them. Nor does saying 'you can buy these overpriced kits with a slight discount' mean all that much. Even with a 20 percent discount the new storm raven price will be 5 percent more after the price rise than full retail price is now.

Even if you do say that you can get item X at 15-20 percent off, there are still plenty of kits out there that are better, more detailed, etc, for less or comparable money.nd since GW keeps dropping the in game points and pushing bigger battles, people find even cheap less detailed/cusomisable/etc kits more attractive, especially for whfb were there are plenty of people selling there types of kits.a

**H.B.M.C.**

SilverMK2 wrote:I'm not really sure what the use of comparing the prices ofgoods from one part of a company to the prices of goods from another part of the same company is. Forge world does produce some good kits but my god are their prices set way too high for the amount of warpage etc you get with some of them. Nor does saying 'you can buy these overpriced kits with a slight discount' mean all that much. Even with a 20 percent discount the new storm raven price will be 5 percent more after the price rise than full retail price is now.

Not if you live in my part of the world. FW is cheaper than GW-proper from an Aussie perspective.

**Holycrusader27**

Doom amd gloom aside, 6th ed is were will see if it sinks or swims with me. Price increases don't effect me alot just because I have alot of the models I need for my army and have no desire to update reguardless of what codex keep, meta changes there will be. I stopped playing competitively and yet to regret it, if I want to play TTWG competitively again id stick to warmahordes. But I do see it effecting my lfgs/community I have helped out with doing demos but its the sticker shock that prevents people from starting that was before this years increase.

Flgs has only been open six month and has yet to break even on the stock he purchased when he opened. As alot of people pointed already with online retailer vs brick n mortar stores its hard. Ive seen some strategies from other stores where you buy into discounts were you pay X ammount unlocks X% off usually doesn't go higher then 20% but hey better then nothing.

**Surtur**

Lanrak wrote:A quick note on the financial history of GW plc.

From 1988 to 1997 gw(plc) doubled turn over every 3 years.(Despite holding sales and not incresing prices over inflation every year, or gouging the ROW.. )

1998 to 2000 growth slowed down,(Due to the tradeing card games.)(£76M to £91M from memory.)

2001 to 2004 , GW plc '...grew fat and lazy on the back of easy sucess...' of the LoTR licence.(Admitted by Mr Kirby.)
Thier turn over went up to £151M!(From memory.)
Then the LotR bubble burst.

And GW plc started loosing sales volumes.So GW plc put prices up to cover lost sales volumes, and the sales volumes plummeted faster.
SO GW plc increased the retail prices again to make up for lost sales volumes , and guess what happened!

I remember reading a report on here where the projected turn over adjusted for the rate of inlfation (average UK.)
EG all values in todays money.
Showed 2004 turn over at £174 M.(From memory.)

So GW plc lost 28% of its customers after the LoTR boom.

But how much did they loose if we factor in the price rises over inflation since then?(GW plc prices have more or less doubled on average , after infation is taken into acount.)
Odly enough its about half of its sales volumes.

Who would have thunk it?
Writing rules specificaly for a fickel demoghraphic that dont promote long term interest.Coupled with raising prices over inflation every year.
Actualy looses you customer faster than you can recoup money of the remaining ones!

When the game developers were left alone to develop and support a wide range of games for gamers, GW doubled its turn over every 3 years.
Since Kirby decided GW plc '...is in the buisness of selling toy soldier to children...' they have lost sales volumes ever since.

Before some one points out Kirby was at GW from 1986 ,he lead the managment buy out in 1992 etc.
He only started to 'influence ' games development in 1998.(40k 3rd ed .)And had 'heavy influence' on game development since the early 2000s.

(All figures from memory are within the 10M mark(Eg £76 M, is definatley 70 somethingM. )

If those numbers are near correct, then they're doing horrid compared to then. Factor in inflation and they make less than half of what they did during the LotR bubble.

**Rayvon**

Grimtuff wrote:
Rayvon wrote:I have heard people have this discussions for about ten, fifteen years now, and GW dont go anywhere.

Really? On the Internet in 1997 discussing the death of GW were we? Pull the other one. Thing is GW WERE in major danger of dying on their arse 15 years ago due to the Pokemon craze that sucked away their main demographic quicker than... something that does that. GW held on, due to setting ruthless daily sale targets for their stores and other factors then came their boom period from LOTR, which incidentally was about 10 years ago, another period where I highly doubt people would have been preaching doom about GW.

All it takes is another Pokemon to come along and GW is dead in the water.

Where did i mention the internet o wise one ?
Why would i lie ?
People have been saying GW is committing suicide by for the past fifteen years with the constant price hikes like it or not.
They wont be going anywhere, i assure you.

**Lanrak**

Hello again.
just got some official numbers .(After the LoTR bubble burst in 2005 to last year.)
Turn over.
2005=£135.08M
2006=£114.88M
2007=£109.50M
2008=£110.34M
2009=£125.70M
2010=£126.51M
2011=£123.05M

**Makaleth**

Wow, so still not caught up to the 2005 peak... might be 10 years at this rate.

**Dawnbringer**

Using the Bank of England's inflation calculator, I get these results indexed to 2011

2005: £165.49M
2006: £136.38M
2007: £124.65M
2008: £120.79M
2009: £138.34M
2010: £133.09M
2011: £123.05M