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Has anyone else considered using necrons as an ally? I was thinking about taking imotekh for the night fighting and a unit of immortals would be beneficial.

I really like the night fighting rules because orks with 3+ cover saves are awesome. The necrons can even hug the KFF to get the save as well.

Imotekh and Orks is quite an odd mix hehehehe. I wouldn't even use Necrons as my arch enemy is a necron player.

 Jidmah wrote:
I have dropped them and replaced them with more boyz. It's really sad how much better that has made my army. Besides the nerf to the KFF and allocation, the two hull points really seal their fate. Any marine army simply tosses a couple of krak grenades their way, and they die, where they could keep khorne berzerkers busy for a few rounds before. Guardsmen or eldar simply disengage from combat if you charge them, a melta bomb usually means a dead kan, haywire grenades mean a dead unit. Gauss weaponry and high strength blasts vaporize them. Pretty much every rule change has turned against them.
They are too expensive for three rokkits that miss half the time, while the short range of the grotzooka tends to put them within range of a unit that can take them down in combat - which might be as powerful as space marine scouts.

I got 9 Kans too...

Kan Wall just doesn't work well anymore...

So I tried something different... here's the gist of my army:

-Wazzie
-Mek with Shokk Attack Gunz
3x 5-man Lootas
1x 10-man gretchin
4x 4-man bikers, plus 1 nob with BP & PK
2x DeffKoptas with BS+TL Rokkit
3x 3-man Kanz (2 squad w/ KMB, 1 squad w/ Rokkits)
ADS with quad gun

Tactically, I moved the kanz forward as fast as I can (1st/2nd turn they were running)... with a potential 12" charge, that freaked my oppoennet out!

Kanz kept 'em busy for 3 - 4 turns.

The Shokk Attack guns... was surprising effective .

a cover save from a being deffrolled???!!!

 Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:
a cover save from a being deffrolled???!!!

Yeah, still trying to figure that one out. At least we don't give KFF saves to enemy vehicles, or it would just be depressing. But KFF does affect enemy infantry, so keep that in mind for if you want to deffrolla them.

Cuz, you know, forcefields totally save against steamrollers bolted to the front of a monster truck from hell

Um.... KFF helps ENEMY units?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:
a cover save from a being deffrolled???!!!

Yeah, still trying to figure that one out. At least we don't give KFF saves to enemy vehicles, or it would just be depressing. But KFF does affect enemy infantry, so keep that in mind for if you want to deffrolla them.

Cuz, you know, forcefields totally save against steamrollers bolted to the front of a monster truck from hell

Wait, why are enemy vehicles exempt from the KFF, yet enemy infantry get access to it?

Again, you will only get cover saves if you are awarded cover in the first place. As long as you are awarded cover, and dealt damage by something that is (a) not a close combat attack, or (b) not an attack that expressly denies cover, then you can use your cover saves.

If infantry is in terrain when Deffrolla'd, they get cover. If a vehicle moved flat out, they get cover (now with its own official ruling!). If a vehicle popped smoke, or is under the effects of KFF, it gets cover. Pretty much the same as it was in 5th, but no one was brave enough to bring it up

If you ram a unit that's not getting cover, they won't get cover. I've already has someone try to claim that the Deffrolla "granted" them the cover save xP

 the_ferrett wrote:
Um.... KFF helps ENEMY units?

The ruling that wargear only affects your on army unless expressely stated otherwise is absent from the rulebook FAQ. As such, many see that to mean that it's free game.

 Jag_Calle wrote:

Still a bit peeved at the whole kommando situation though..
*

On this topic, I was thinking one use for commando's still is very fighting vs a very shooty army that sucks in CC (Tau & IG), in which you either get to them & win, or die trying: infiltrating them forward does give you like a turn extra movement (especially when you can put terrain so that you can deploy behind it).

So you have to boy (6pt) with a stikkbom (7pt); that can move through cover & deploys further... maybe worth the 3 extra points?

 Jidmah wrote:
I have dropped them and replaced them with more boyz. It's really sad how much better that has made my army. Besides the nerf to the KFF and allocation, the two hull points really seal their fate. Any marine army simply tosses a couple of krak grenades their way, and they die, where they could keep khorne berzerkers busy for a few rounds before. Guardsmen or eldar simply disengage from combat if you charge them, a melta bomb usually means a dead kan, haywire grenades mean a dead unit. Gauss weaponry and high strength blasts vaporize them. Pretty much every rule change has turned against them.
They are too expensive for three rokkits that miss half the time, while the short range of the grotzooka tends to put them within range of a unit that can take them down in combat - which might be as powerful as space marine scouts.

Yea, Ive been running pretty much, horde Orks so far, with a dash of something else to mix it up/try things out. I have to say, horde Orks just beat the piss out of things. In fact, tonight I played another game where I spammed boyz in a 1k point game with dreads, a KFF and a SAG mek to fill it out. And my opponent was just hosed down. Granted I rolled REALLY well on my KFF saves, but even still, that would help reduce deaths to my mass of boyz, and the SAG is still proving to be a great asset to my horde. Im just taking a serious beating, bordering on the absurd, and then when in range, just pulverize with shootas and assault.


6th seems to be the Horde edition, where as before it was which ever klan uses BW the most.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kharrak wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:
a cover save from a being deffrolled???!!!

Yeah, still trying to figure that one out. At least we don't give KFF saves to enemy vehicles, or it would just be depressing. But KFF does affect enemy infantry, so keep that in mind for if you want to deffrolla them.

Cuz, you know, forcefields totally save against steamrollers bolted to the front of a monster truck from hell

Wait, why are enemy vehicles exempt from the KFF, yet enemy infantry get access to it?

Again, you will only get cover saves if you are awarded cover in the first place. As long as you are awarded cover, and dealt damage by something that is (a) not a close combat attack, or (b) not an attack that expressly denies cover, then you can use your cover saves.

If infantry is in terrain when Deffrolla'd, they get cover. If a vehicle moved flat out, they get cover (now with its own official ruling!). If a vehicle popped smoke, or is under the effects of KFF, it gets cover. Pretty much the same as it was in 5th, but no one was brave enough to bring it up

If you ram a unit that's not getting cover, they won't get cover. I've already has someone try to claim that the Deffrolla "granted" them the cover save xP

 the_ferrett wrote:
Um.... KFF helps ENEMY units?

The ruling that wargear only affects your on army unless expressely stated otherwise is absent from the rulebook FAQ. As such, many see that to mean that it's free game.

Reminds me of the 5th edition story of a Chaos player at a tourny claiming that the legs of his defiler, granted said defiler a 4+ cover save
And yes, YOUR KFF will not help an enemy get a cover save. Not how the rules work.

Disclaimer: This is about as RAW as you can get. But in my defense, it literally says all units. It's a giant force field dome and doesn't pick targets. To me, it made sense that literally anything that got within the dome would be shielded. It's not like the dome just magically disappears where the enemy is but leaves only orks cover. This isn't like the painboy healing allied guardsmen or anything. I'm just saying why it makes sense that it would affect all units within the field no matter what. If this gets heated we can always take it over to YMDC.

It says all units within 6", it never specifies enemy or ally or friendly or anything, it just says all units. It's like a blast template affects all units underneath, it does not discriminate. When a blast template scatters onto yours and your opponents units, you don't get to choose to only affect enemy or friendly units. That's what the KFF felt like.

As for why enemy vehicles don't get it, in the faq orks got for 6th ed, it states that only friendly vehicles become obscured, and get the +5 cover save for doing so. Nothing was mentioned about non vehicle, non ork units.

The ork codex entry for KFF if you want to see that as well.

Kustom Force Field:Meks will build or scavenge powerful force field projectors with which to protect their warty hides. A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the mek a cover save of +5. Vehicles within 6" are treated as being obscured targets. The force field has no effect in assault.

By not giving enemy units the cover save as well, you're not giving ALL units within 6" the save. That's how I've understood it since back in 5th, and if an enemy unit had gotten with 6" of me back then I would have given it to them then as well. The only real significance about it in 6th is that it allows you to shield an ally's infantry, which can be extremely handy for IG and other horde armies. This means you see it a lot more than you ever would back in 5th.

the_ferrett wrote:Um.... KFF helps ENEMY units?

Unlike almost every other aura in game, the KFF has not been limited to "friendly units" "units from Codex:Orks" or "units in your army". The FAQ in 5th concerning this kind of abilities has never appeared in new the rulebook(unlike most other FAQ answers), and has not (yet?) been reprinted.

Considering that all our allies are considered enemy units, this might as well be intended, rather than an overlook.

Jidmah i was hoping i could ask you to produce a list you would suggest being as our most viable for 950 pts and 1000 pts. I want to compare notes and see how you think orks are best used in smaller points and then i will compare my own.

If I'd ever have to attend a tourney at such low point levels, it would probably look somewhat like this:

- HQ -
Biker Warboss - He's a beast, and can take on most troops by himself, as well as any vehicle.
KFF Mek - Prevents focus fire

- Troops -
3x 20 Shoota boyz, Nob, BP, PK - Yes, I still believe in the power of the klaw. Sadly no spare points for 'eavy armor.

- Fast Attack -
Dakkajet, extra shoota - It's nigh invinicle at low point levels, too good to skip

- Heavy Support -
3x 3 Kannons. Can't beat their cost efficiency, and they are pretty decent all-round shooters.

You'll probably notice that I've skipped lootaz, but I really don't see a reason to fit them in. Kannons can handle vehicles and MCs if deployed agressively, dakkajet handles light armor and any kind of infantry(remember pinning!), the warboss takes on heavy armor and, when assisted by a boyz unit, characters and MCs.

 Jidmah wrote:
If I'd ever have to attend a tourney at such low point levels, it would probably look somewhat like this:

- HQ -
Biker Warboss - He's a beast, and can take on most troops by himself, as well as any vehicle.
KFF Mek - Prevents focus fire

- Troops -
3x 20 Shoota boyz, Nob, BP, PK - Yes, I still believe in the power of the klaw. Sadly no spare points for 'eavy armor.

- Fast Attack -
Dakkajet, extra shoota - It's nigh invinicle at low point levels, too good to skip

- Heavy Support -
3x 3 Kannons. Can't beat their cost efficiency, and they are pretty decent all-round shooters.

You'll probably notice that I've skipped lootaz, but I really don't see a reason to fit them in. Kannons can handle vehicles and MCs if deployed agressively, dakkajet handles light armor and any kind of infantry(remember pinning!), the warboss takes on heavy armor and, when assisted by a boyz unit, characters and MCs.

A pretty interesting idea here, I hadn't thought of running the warboss alone like that but you bring a good point, are you saying that the warboss hides with a 20 boy unit or races toward the enemy?

Hide. He has no choice but being your warlord, so you shouldn't toss him and that VP away carelessly. On the bright side, many leader feats benefit him even when racing around alone. But you'll want to keep him around till the end of the game anyways, as he can contest or even clear objectives easily.

I usually only unattach him when he can make an assault move that locks him in combat on the same turn. Against walkers, MCs or beatstick characters it's more beneficial to bring the boyz along as additional wounds and challenge protection. Don't have yourself baited out into the open by a rhino parking exactly 13" away.

I still cant believe cover save for deff rolla.... BRB says no cover saves for hits in melee. what do they honestly consider a Deff Rolla hit to be??? a shooting attack?!?

It's neither, hence the ruling.

Not that i like the ruling at all though..

For the whole kff to enemy units thing, you could make the arguement that if two units are both inside the kff, then neither gets cover, because there isn't an intervening force field between them. But then you'd have to let close melta squads and stuff bypass the save. That really needs to be fixed, but i just play with friends mostly, so we'll house rule it.

 keltikhoa wrote:
I still cant believe cover save for deff rolla.... BRB says no cover saves for hits in melee. what do they honestly consider a Deff Rolla hit to be??? a shooting attack?!?

It's a common misconception that cover saves can only be taken from shooting attacks, when the opposite has been true, even in 5th.

You get a cover save, if you have access to one, against any wound not caused by (a) a melee attack, or (b) an attack that expressly denies cover saves.

If you have a KFF in the battlewagon, it muddies the water somewhat.

I see it as a Field effect. It's not a Bubble, or a Dome. It's more like how you can feel electricity for a certain distance from a charged object- a field. It's not focused in any one area, but is infused throughout the effected area, and 'grounds' through living tissue (or cyborgs or metal dudes or whatever), which is how it extends to entire squads.

.... it's how they keep air on an asteroid that they are riding throw space...

Jidmah wrote:'eavy armor for nobz is mandatory now though.

How many people have tried this in their shoota mobs? Is it worth the extra 5 pts?

keltikhoa wrote:I still cant believe cover save for deff rolla.... BRB says no cover saves for hits in melee. what do they honestly consider a Deff Rolla hit to be??? a shooting attack?!?

They probably realized that jink wouldn't work otherwise. It's not that big of a deal though. Vehicles don't get cover from area terrain unless 25% is hidden, so unless they are obscured for some reason (KFF, smoke launchers) it is very unlikely that a vehicle will ever get a cover save against the rolla outside of special wargear and jink. Any infantry models were already entitled to use their armor save against the deff rolla, so unless you run over units like boyz or gaunts, the extra cover save does nothing. Outside of area terrain, being 25% hidden from a battlewagon standing right in front of you is close to impossible anyways.

Anvildude wrote:I see it as a Field effect. It's not a Bubble, or a Dome. It's more like how you can feel electricity for a certain distance from a charged object- a field. It's not focused in any one area, but is infused throughout the effected area, and 'grounds' through living tissue (or cyborgs or metal dudes or whatever), which is how it extends to entire squads.

The KFF is not a distinct piece of wargear, every one is a unique piece. Fore example, lore describes the Arch-Arsonist of Chartokk carrying a KFF - actually a looted forcefield generator original part of an eldar space ship that even blocked blows in close combat. I also remember reading about a big mek whose KFF was sort of a tesla coil, zapping bullets and missiles out of the air. And last, the KFF shown in the DoW PC Game provided every ork in range with a personal force field - it kind of created a bubble around everyone getting close enough to the big mek carrying it.

No matter how you look at it, it's ork high-tech, so it doesn't have to make sense in the first place.

Skragdakka Urduk wrote:

Jidmah wrote:'eavy armor for nobz is mandatory now though.

How many people have tried this in their shoota mobs? Is it worth the extra 5 pts?

Well, 'eavy armor won't be winning challenges for you, but it's still good to keep the nob alive from precision shots, vehicle explosions, ordinary flamers and the like. I've been using it thoroughly on my trukk mobs, where every wound counts, and will use it to protect nobz squads from overwatch/walls of death now that you can't LOS away wounds from your valuable klaws.

As for shoota mobs, large ones specially, I've never felt the need to give the nob extra protection. Wound allocation and LOS will take care of most threats.

Jidmah wrote:They probably realized that jink wouldn't work otherwise. It's not that big of a deal though. Vehicles don't get cover from area terrain unless 25% is hidden, so unless they are obscured for some reason (KFF, smoke launchers) it is very unlikely that a vehicle will ever get a cover save against the rolla outside of special wargear and jink. Any infantry models were already entitled to use their armor save against the deff rolla, so unless you run over units like boyz or gaunts, the extra cover save does nothing. Outside of area terrain, being 25% hidden from a battlewagon standing right in front of you is close to impossible anyways.

True. Most cover that would grant infantry 5+ or better saves is impassable terrain for battlewagons anyway.

Agreed with the above, I run big shoota mobz, and I dont really see the point in giving the Nob eavy armor. If the points are just sitting there, then sure, but normally no. Even in challenges, if the Nob has a good chance to KO his opponent, then Ill give er a go, if not, he just sits it out, as the 20+ boyz attacking will usually do enough damage on their own. And if not, well Fearless is badass in 6th, so I dont much care

Kharrak... " If a vehicle moved flat out, they get cover (now with its own official ruling!). "

Can you tell me where this is.. I must have missed it.

Re : KFF .. I would have thought the Ork telekinetic beleif they have would make it work, such as their weapons which only work in the hands of orks. The KFF would only protect the Orks 'cus only orks believe that a big whirring smoke belching thing-a-ma-jig with added whirly bits is going to keep them alive longer.

As for cover from a Rolla.. I guess if you were in a trench you could duck and it would roll over the top, but as stated - most cover is negated by the other rules (25% etc) and the Tank Shock / Dangerous terrain rules themsleves cause issue for ramming stuff too well protected.

[user] : Well I guess Im pretty lucky then, considering i am very new to this and really aint missing out on what was and its like ive told the guys i play with that if i Really cared if I waon alot, I wouldn't be plain orks. I chose th play orcs cause they are funny and sooo unpredictable.

MechanicusOmnisWrex wrote:

Re : KFF .. I would have thought the Ork telekinetic beleif they have would make it work, such as their weapons which only work in the hands of orks. The KFF would only protect the Orks 'cus only orks believe that a big whirring smoke belching thing-a-ma-jig with added whirly bits is going to keep them alive longer.

Good point! too bad rules are not written from fluff

That would not be accurate fluff though. Ork technology works better than it should, but it's not completely disfunctional like most people keep saying.
A human could probably pick up some of the shootaz and fire them two or three times before they jam, explode, or the recoil rips their arm off. Ork technology works better in ork hands, but it still has to work in the first place.

 Jidmah wrote:
That would not be accurate fluff though. Ork technology works better than it should, but it's not completely disfunctional like most people keep saying.
A human could probably pick up some of the shootaz and fire them two or three times before they jam, explode, oder the recoil rips their arm off. Ork technology works better in ork hands, but it still has to work in the first place.

Yeah there are instances of guardsmen picking up and firing ork shootas and other weapons. Deathworld for example They managed to fire the shootas for about half a minute until they jammed, but they still worked just fine.