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Overview
The Daemon Prince of the new CSM book is much different than the previous incarnation. The new DP is more of a beatstick yet comes with a higher price tag. This article will cover the new DP roles, and compare it to similar units from other codex's.



Role
There are two roles of the DP. The first is to destroy MSU squads. This is the cheapest way to outfit the DP, and it excels at this role. One DP can expect to kill 5 marines in assault very quickly with little or no wounds. The DP can also destroy most vehicles in the game with little effort through 3 smash attacks on the charge.

The second method of running a DP is to utilize its abilities for shooting. The DP can vector strike at STR 6 and use either the Burning Brand or psychic powers for its shooting. This DP can also be used to destroy key targets through assault -- such as smashing a vindicator.

DPs come with a variety of ways to build the model. Each build should logically fill its role in your army, and should be designed accordingly.





Build strategy - Beatstick
The first build is that of a melee beatstick. Since the goal of this unit is to destroy units in assault, it will likely spend only one turn in 'swoop' mode before moving to glide mode to assault units.

The DP is not a champion of chaos, so they are not required to challange every round possible.

The first two boons you should look at are power armor, wings and the Chaos Artefact 'black mace'. I would suggest the mark of Tzeentch or Nurgle. This build gives the following advantages
- Daemon weapon for 5-11 attacks per round.
- Hatred of marines, giving weapon attacks a 8/9 chance of hitting round one vs marines
- Fleshbane, so always wounding on 2+ with AP2.
- Cursed weapon, vastly increasing killing potentional vs hordes.
- Mark to provide extra protection - Nurge for bonus vs shooting, Tzeentch for bonus vs assault.

When charging, this build will have between 6-12 attacks hitting 2/3 of the time and wounding on 2+. When attacking marines, they hit 8/9 of the time. Any wounds will cause toughness tests on all enemy models within 3" or they die with no saves!
Don't forget the extra STR 6 hammer of wrath hit too.

That means when charging you will kill ~3 TH/SS termies on the round you assault, and will get 1 wound in return. When assaulting normal MEQ you can expect entire squads to evaporate. Even blob squads of IG will have a hard time as you will either be killing 10-20 a turn with cursed effects or eating one character a turn, and then killing 5-10 through cursed effects.

Don't forget the mace effect can also work during a vector strike at the end of your movement phase.

This build works well for Epidemius's tally. Given the ability to kill 9+ models a turn the round it assaults, you can expect the Epidemius tally to increase quickly. Epidemius's tally rule specifically says "Daemon of Nurgle" which is the same wording in the CSM dex.

This is also an excellent model to give 'Dimensional Key' to. This allows you to deep strike any units without fear of scatter -- something you can build your army around.

As this model needs to be in assault as quickly as possible, its best to hide it behind a bastion or some other terrain allowing you to start on the board. You want to be in assault on turn 2. Given the 24" inital flight, with a ~17" assault on turn 2 its reasable to expect to be in assault on turn 2.

If you worry about not making your charge distance, you can go with a DP of Slaanesh to give fleet, increasing the average charge distance by 2".

Another good thing to consider is 'Gift of Mutation'. Being able to roll on the chaos gift chart can give a decent upgrade.




Build strategy - Shooting platform
The first build is that of a weapons platform. This DP will be more expensive that equally equipped vehicles, but the DP is much more resilient. One decent LC shot can destroy a 170 pt helldrake, but will only inflict a wound on the DP. The DP also does not fear assault, like a forgefiend does.

The two best marks are tzeench or nurgle. Nurgle provides extra shooting protection with shroud, and Tzeentch provides extra resistance through armor saves. Both are valid options, though I give Tzeentch a small advantage.

Generally your default attack will be a swooping vector strike. D3+1 STR 6, AP 3 hits is nothing to laugh at. Since you have already 'bought' this power with wings, its effective to keep it.

For the 'second' shooting power, there are a few options.
A cheap power is to take a burning brand of skalathrax. This brings your DP to 250 points, and gives him a similar role to a CD DP with breath. Since the brand is torrent, you have a lot more flexability where you place the template (since you can put the short end anywhere within 12" of your DP) yet its less effective vs high Toughness or vehicles.

Another good thing to consider is 'Gift of Mutation'. Being able to roll on the chaos gift chart can give a decent upgrade.

The final option is to take one level of psychic power and use one of the CSM powers in conjunction with vector strike. This is a way to get a cheap bolt or other power.





Comparison to similar units
When you compare the beatstick DP to the bloodthrirster you see that both units function in similar roles. The BT has a higher toughness and armor save, and can be used to tank force weapons. The DP has a much greater potential to kill through the black mace, and gains in power via the Chaos Boon table.
I think the DP edges out over bloodthirster for the role of beatstick due to the damage output of the DP.

For 250 points, you can buy a Lord of Change over a DP. The DP is much better in assault than a LoC, yet the LoC has a few advantages
- Better Save
- Better Tougness
- 2 shooting attacks base (gaze + bolt)
- No psychic tests required.
As such, I would rate the LoC as a better option than the base psychic DP, but on par with the burning brand DP. I say that simply because of the flexability of the burning brand DP.


Weaknesses
One good round of shooting can destroy a DP, even one swooping. This means before you DP can get into assault it can be rendered ineffective.

Lack of EW is also a hinderance. It means STR 10 attacks or force weapons are a good counter.
If you see a lot of broadsides on the other side of the board, you might want to consider leaving your DP in reserves until you can use your havocs to thin them out. Don't challange ghazz with your DP during a Waaaagh. Use common sense with your DP, and don't think hes more than he is.

Beatstick DPs can also rely upon some support to maximize their effectivness. Two havoc squads bristling with autocannons in a bastion are an example of this support. These havocs can open transports on turn one, allowing the DP to get to the candy inside the rhino-wrapped MEQ.


Summary
DPs are decent units, but with rules manipulations they quickly become good units. This is best seen through the Chaos Wargear list rules combining with the MC rules. Examples of this are the Black Mace, or burning brand. Those artifacts are good in the hands of lords, and are great in the hands of a DP.

A beatstick prince with a black mace is one of the secrets of the new codex I think people will soon realize is extremely good. Once you see one cut through a 50 guard blob squad, or obliterate 5 TH/SS marines with barely a scratch people will start taking them very seriously. Until then, internet pundits will say 'railguns lolz' and proclaim DPs useless.

A shooting DP has much less 'killy' power. Its advantage is flexability in being able to target weaker units and assault them. In comparison a LoC is better off just flying around and pew-pew'ing. In both cases neither model brings much 'killy' power with it. Their strong value is in contesting, etc..

I find it funny how much though you put into this when you get rules wrong.

Another option is to take 1+ levels of psyker and give your DP the scroll of magnus.

Can't take the scroll as it doesn't have a mark.

Also, remember to go after characters with your shooting attacks to maximize additional boons that you may gain.

Sorry, he isn't a champion of chaos. This is what the Sorc w/ jump pack is for.

Also your lack of talking about the Daemon of Khorne with 3 Biomancy powers is amusing. (yes that means up to S10 on the charge without using the smash rule) and is 5 points cheaper.

Thanks for catching the rules errors. I have edited the post accordingly. Nobody's perfect, right?

 jegsar wrote:
Also your lack of talking about the Daemon of Khorne with 3 Biomancy powers is amusing. (yes that means up to S10 on the charge without using the smash rule) and is 5 points cheaper

Speaking of which, p94 explains "Daemons of Khorne may not take this upgrade", when referring to psychic powers.
A picture is worth 1000 words...

The Daemon Princes still seem very expensive... on the flip side, some will say more appropriate.

Minimum for me is 220 points....that's a land raider, or a squad of plague marines.

Though, I can see the potential of the Dp and all of the nice offensive artifacts.

Sorry i was thinking of something else that is Khorne that can end up with psychic powers... i forget what though.

There is a 500 point FFA event is coming up for me. The FoC has been changed for it (one HQ and one infantry or jump infantry) and I plan on running a 430 point DP and a Oblit. should be interesting.

It seems like there is no build in which two DP's cant effectively be used (even though the option to do so still remains.) It looks as if a DP is a situational 1 per army not due to restriction (as in in the Chaos 3.5 codex) but due to expense.

For instance if you are running a Khorne theemed army, 1 Khorne prince and 1 Khorne lord to unlock Berzerkers as troops. Then if playing at 1500 points you have about 600 points left to play with. Still seems too expensive.

I agree. Look at the meta with Daemon players.

A few months ago, people (including myself) were bringing 5 FMCs. Each FMC costed the same as a daemon prince in the new CSM codex.

Today that number has decreased. Your seeing 2-3 FMCs due to their high cost.

I've steered away from the DP but now I see it's potential clearly after watching a couple of games where he was played.

Thing is, would you rather potentially have a 3+ cover save or reroll 1's for saves.?

He is a big point sync and leaves a huge hole in your army but if he doesnt die then oh my.. that black mace winged dude is going to go to town.

Thinking more about his use and the fact that he would only potentially be swooping for one turn leans me more towards Tzeench or Slaanesh, for the additional chance of making that save or the charge respectivley.
The important aspect will be that you need to keep this guy in combat, a failed charge will wreck your day.

Combats also need to be planned, You really don't want your DP coming out of combat in your turn.

The other aspect is additional survivability. This can be granted to your DP through Mastery level 3.
Taking a Slaanesh version allows you immediate access to a ranged shooting attack through the primas power.
You are left with 2 rolls on Biomancy favouring Iron Arm mainly for eternal warrior and endurance for FnP.
The issue I have with this is that you are only going to get one of these powers at the most in 50% of games.

Does his cost justify the chances of rolling these powers?
I do appreciate that with EW and/or FnP he would pretty much wreck total face.

If the Mastery levels point cost are worth the chance of giving him EW and/or FnP I see this as probably the best build:

DP of Slaanesh
Wings
Power Armour
Mastery level 3
Black Mace

That's 285 points.
I think due to the unreliable chances of getting Iron Arm/Endurance he needs to be ran with other distractions otherwise he could potentially be nuked before he even reaches combat.

OP:
Oh dear god, some constructive talk on using the new daemon prince.Well done good sir, i think you have nailed some very viable points and builds.

I'm think of using the Nurgle +mace build.

khaosspacemarines wrote:
OP:
Oh dear god, some constructive talk on using the new daemon prince.Well done good sir, i think you have nailed some very viable points and builds.

I'm think of using the Nurgle +mace build.

I too leaned towards the Nurgle option intially but I do not think its the best competative build.
You need to ensure the charge is made otherwise your DP will likely be toast. Slaanesh for fleet then becomes extremely important.

Thinking crazy here but what about a cheap Slaaneshi wingless prince?

I'm more leaning towards the Tzeentch prince, but a good argument is being made for the Slaanesh one. I don't see much use for the Khorne one without the Axe for S8.

However, the more I look at it, and despite my initial feelings, I'm having a really tough time accepting the Nurgle one.

Yes, Shrouding is nice. In order to get the most out of it, you need to be swooping and diving. No big deal, unless you are using the Brand which will probably be a majority of the time for me.

However, Slow & Purposeful is disastrous. You will most likely beat the enemy by a large margin, which leads to them failling their morale and not being caught in a sweeping advance, leaving you vulnerable during your opponent's turn. Against Space Marines you can't reliably tied them up for a turn to finish them off because of this as well. Your best targets for the Daemon Prince would be a Fearless unit, with many of them being a risky choice.

So, if you build him ranged, you get better protection, but less reliable/no shooting when it counts, and if you build him for melee, you kill/run off everything and are at risk again.

This is why I'm probably going to stick with Tzeentch for awhile. Rerolling half of your failed armor saves is HUGE. And, I will be alternating between the Brand and Mace (with or without Biomancy) until I figure out which one I like better.

 minigun762 wrote:
Thinking crazy here but what about a cheap Slaaneshi wingless prince?

I did consider it. Slaanesh, Armor, Combat Familiar (Smash rule means the 2 extra attacks are AP2). For 190 points, it'll kill anything it touches. It'll move about 14" a turn too, but it needs target saturation. Maulerfiends, Dreadnoughts, etc.

 jegsar wrote:
Also your lack of talking about the Daemon of Khorne with 3 Biomancy powers is amusing. (yes that means up to S10 on the charge without using the smash rule) and is 5 points cheaper.

baahahaha A Khorne Psyker bahahaahaha where do you pull that from....

 jegsar wrote:
Sorry i was thinking of something else that is Khorne that can end up with psychic powers... i forget what though.

o_O

just dude. Just . Khornate psykers

But lol's aside, I think the shooty DP is too expensive for the pew he puts out. Beatstick though has some value to it. Planning is required no matter what, now that they lack EW and have gained wings to send them flying out far ahead of the main force and get isolated very very quickly. I'm just cut there's no spartan prince anymore he was the best....was...

I agree that Slaanesh will probably be the best choice, as making that charge is critical. If he doesn't and gets stuck out in the open he's going by the end of your opponents next turn. I also don't think making him a Psyker is worth it, not even Mastery Level 1. If you want a Psyker go with a Sorcerer, the DP should be a cheap-as-possible beatstick. I like the basic 240pt build with Wings, Black Mace, and Daemon of Slaanesh. Between 7-11 S6 AP2 Rending attacks with Cursed and Fleshbane is amazing.

I'm trying one out as a vector strike then assault unit this weekend.

Daemon Prince
Daemon of Tzeentch, Gift of Mutation, Wings, Power Armor

I was originally someone who thought "Why the big points bump?!?!" but then am now noticing that the Daemon Prince should shred just about anything near it. I mean, they got MUCH better in CC. 5 base attacks is just nasty, usually being hit in CC on 5's, hitting everything short of a Blood Thirster on 3's, shredding armor... they are good. Now just getting him into combat...

What about Wings, Khorne, Axe? Do you need the armor?

I think an important question is, does the Deamon of Tzeentch keep rerolling 1s even if they come up again, or just once?

Cause if he can keep rerolling 1s, then you essentially just got a DP with 2+ 4++ saves.

Granted, a tooled up DP with Tzeentch, Power Armor, Black Mace AND wings is 265 points, exactly the same as Abaddon, but he may actually be worth it, as at this point he's extremely difficult to kill AND extremely mobile, without need for transports, and he's even killier than Abby.

DrDuckman wrote:
I think an important question is, does the Deamon of Tzeentch keep rerolling 1s even if they come up again, or just once?

No that's not even close to a good question, as anyone with half a knowledge of the main rules could tell you.

There a 2 ways to run a Daemon Prince.

Daemon of Nurgle, Power Armour, Wings, ( if Zdiving for jink this becomes a 3+ save!), Black Mace, M Lvl 3 Psyker with Nurlge powers FTW!

Daemon of Khorne, Power Armour, Wings, Axe of Blind Fury


First one is hard to kill, hits hordes hard and works epic in a Tallyman list

Second is slightly more fragile, but hits Like a Frieght Train on Speed when his wife is having an affair. On the Charge he does ine of the following
Has a 1/6 Chance of hitting with 7, Str 7, AP2, Ws1 attacks
Can hit with between 8 and 13, Str 7, AP 2, WS 8 attacks

DrDuckman wrote:
I think an important question is, does the Deamon of Tzeentch keep rerolling 1s even if they come up again, or just once?

Cause if he can keep rerolling 1s, then you essentially just got a DP with 2+ 4++ saves.

Granted, a tooled up DP with Tzeentch, Power Armor, Black Mace AND wings is 265 points, exactly the same as Abaddon, but he may actually be worth it, as at this point he's extremely difficult to kill AND extremely mobile, without need for transports, and he's even killier than Abby.

BRB says dice can only be re-rolled once.

There a 2 ways to run a Daemon Prince.

Daemon of Nurgle, Power Armour, Wings, ( if Zdiving for jink this becomes a 3+ save!), Black Mace, M Lvl 3 Psyker with Nurlge powers FTW!

Daemon of Khorne, Power Armour, Wings, Axe of Blind Fury


First one is hard to kill, hits hordes hard and works epic in a Tallyman list

Second is slightly more fragile, but hits Like a Frieght Train on Speed when his wife is having an affair. On the Charge he does ine of the following
Has a 1/6 Chance of hitting with 7, Str 7, AP2, Ws1 attacks
Can hit with between 8 and 13, Str 7, AP 2, WS 8 attacks

In an all Nurgle list he would be great, but one hell of a point sink. Still probably worth since he is much more mobile than other Nurgle units thanks to wings.

Axe of Blind Fury is great, but I think it is just as great on a Lord. The Black Mace's only real weakness is it's AP4, which isn't a problem for DPs, making them an obvious combo IMHO.

 L0rdF1end wrote:


I too leaned towards the Nurgle option intially but I do not think its the best competative build.

You are correct, but only because there is no 'competitive' daemon prince build.

 DarkHound wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Thinking crazy here but what about a cheap Slaaneshi wingless prince?

I did consider it. Slaanesh, Armor, Combat Familiar (Smash rule means the 2 extra attacks are AP2). For 190 points, it'll kill anything it touches. It'll move about 14" a turn too, but it needs target saturation. Maulerfiends, Dreadnoughts, etc.

Interesting idea with the familiar, I would have assumed that smash wouldn't affect it.

I agree with saturation, I was thinking demon engine heavy and maybe some spawns, since the prince could basically keep up with them with some good rolls.

 Bodichi wrote:
It seems like there is no build in which two DP's cant effectively be used (even though the option to do so still remains.) It looks as if a DP is a situational 1 per army not due to restriction (as in in the Chaos 3.5 codex) but due to expense.

For instance if you are running a Khorne theemed army, 1 Khorne prince and 1 Khorne lord to unlock Berzerkers as troops. Then if playing at 1500 points you have about 600 points left to play with. Still seems too expensive.

it is possible to run 2 epic Khorne DPs, give both wings and power armor then give one black mace and the other axe of blind fury... its a massive points sink but people crap themselves when they see it! they FAQ'd it so Khorne DPs can take either daemon weapon now

Tasader TheMadBear wrote:Axe of Blind Fury is great, but I think it is just as great on a Lord. The Black Mace's only real weakness is it's AP4, which isn't a problem for DPs, making them an obvious combo IMHO.

Yeah, that too. The downside to having a Lord with Axe is that he drops to WS 5, so anything he'd want to fight in a challenge, ie, SM Captains, hit him on 3s, and his Plasma Pistol/Combiweapon, hits on 3s not 2s. Especially for Combiweapons you need the BS 5. On DPs, because they have WS 9, they still hit most things on 3+ and the few models who would hit him 3s are going to take a hell of a Beating (Avatar, Bloodthirsters, Swarmlord) Out of those yhe zswarmlord has the best Chance.

But yes the BM is awesome on Princes

I've tried a black mace DP out, and discovered its really nasty in assault. It followed the mathhammer and ate up squads.

Every assault round he was fed a champion/IC when possible, and he ate them with no problems. The black mace then popped 1/3 of the models he was stuck in assault with.

In the round he was out of assault, he had 3 wounds put on it from shooting. I expect that to be the standard. Once the DP is out of assault he will get shot to bits -- thats why its important to keep as cheap as possible. Don't load him up with 3 psy powers.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've tried a black mace DP out, and discovered its really nasty in assault. It followed the mathhammer and ate up squads.

Every assault round he was fed a champion/IC when possible, and he ate them with no problems. The black mace then popped 1/3 of the models he was stuck in assault with.

In the round he was out of assault, he had 3 wounds put on it from shooting. I expect that to be the standard. Once the DP is out of assault he will get shot to bits -- thats why its important to keep as cheap as possible. Don't load him up with 3 psy powers.

Exactly

Axe of Blind Fury should not be used on Daemon Princes for a good reason :
Ws8 means you get hit on 4s instead of 5s against about everything in Cc. I know there is a chance you may murder everything you see, but on average once a game you hit yourself. Bummer.

 Brymm wrote:
Ws8 means you get hit on 4s instead of 5s against about everything in Cc

Yep. Mathammer supports this. Hitting the DP on 5s instead of 4s gives the dp an extra 1/3 damage reduction from the majority of attacks in CC out there.

undivided daemon prince with level 3 pskyer and black mace with wings is insane.

Now add in iron arm or fiery form and JEEEEEZ.

If you could get iron arm every time it would be awesome. The challange is that getting it is a crapshoot.
If you get it, its a huge boon though.

Last night my buddy was playing the black mace DP, and he assaulted my bloodcrushers + skulltaker. The DP squished skulltaker in a challange, but then died horribly to the 8 bloodcrushers in the following assault phase. Iron arm would have changed that combat significantly.