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I've been running a list which uses Huron's Infiltrate and allied daemons to put an entire army to put the entire army in my opponent's face. I run Nurgle units because of my fluff, but I think this strategy lines up better with Tzeentch. This is due largely to how strong Tzeentch daemons have become. Largely, but not entirely so stick with me.

Infiltrating en masse (which I also did with my horde Orks for a while) doesn't leave your opponent much room to maneuver. They can't do much to stay out of shooting range, but they aren't quite in range to assault. You also usually get better force concentration, since it's also hard to bring their whole army to bear. Unfortunately, the best positions aren't often in cover.

Now, who do we know that doesn't care about cover, hates getting assaulted, and has strong shooting?

Then there's the miracle that is Ahriman. He does both of what you need: gives out Infiltrate and makes Thousand Sons scoring. I don't care what else he brings to the table, I'm willing to spend 200 points on that. The fact that he's pretty strong is just icing on the cake.

By splitting the wave between Flamers and Screamers, you're certain to get some way to crack armor on turn 1. I don't know if Fateweaver would be worth it, but it's an option. My gut tells me to go cheap as possible since the objective is to get Flamers and Screamers on the board.

Taking a step back, one must wonder: why take allied CSM at all? They give you a reliable firebase where otherwise a pure daemon army has to fight as blocks of individuals owing to the whims of scattering. Allied Guard are the only other option, but they can't provide saturation for the daemons since they're basically restricted to their deployment zone. Dark Eldar, Orks, and Tau all have interesting ways of contributing firepower, but Daemons don't have strong scoring units, and desperate allies can't remedy that.

Before I get too focused on Thousand Sons, what other options are there? CSM need to be the primary detachment to use Master of Deception (which is the only way to put hard units next to the daemons when they arrive). It works on any infantry unit in the book, particularly Obliterators, Havocs, Chosen, and Terminators. Oblits and Terminators have stronger CC and access to 4++. They're all good options, but I'm leery of looking outside the Troops section because objectives win games. You're already dipping heavily into FA and Elites to get the daemons, so the few points you spare on troops means that they're forced to be bench warmers. Even 100 points of cultists feels like too much deadweight. Still, if someone can come up with a Huron list that Infiltrates Terminators in a Landraider alongside the daemons, feel free to post about it.

Finally, the army also has to deal with assault. I was hoping you guys could provide the new deathstars and we could come up with ways to hammer them down.

Thing is 1k sons are expensive for what they provide. Ap3 bolters are only good vs space marines. Do you think orks or guardsmen care that your bolters are Ap3?

And then you are infiltrating them close to enemy lines. What happens when they get assaulted? No overwatch and you get 1 attack. Your 4+ invulnerable is meaningless to most things since you have 3+ armor that they can't ignore anyway.

You also get no special or heavy weapon options with thousand sons. Making them scoring helps a little, but in reality they are worse off most times than a regular CSM.

Personally I think Slaanesh is the way to go for assault troops now. MSU in rhinos with doom siren. Send four of those toward your opponent along with your deepstriking daemon allies and a squad or two of fast bikers and let him decide what to shoot.

The bikers tie up shooting squads, the daemons take out armor or super killy units. The noise marines come in and flame infantry units off objectives.

Turn 2 the heldrakes show up. (hopefully)

AP3 bolters are not only good against Space Marines. They are only less good against other things. Orks and Guardsman may not care as much about bolters, but that's why you've got Tzeentch's Firestorm, Doombolt, and Flamers. Plus, Orks and Guard have awful force concentration. You will be dealing with only one mob of bodies at a time, or one platoon of guard. Any ordnance that they have is nice, but that's why you brought a 4++.

I don't see how special or heavy weapons matter when your anti-infantry is phenomenal and you already have reliable anti-tank.

And assault may be an issue, but it's not an immediate concern. Both books have lots of assault options. I don't know what would be the best to bring, hence the thread, but there definitely is a solution there.

CSM are struggling right now because it is hard for them to get in range to do anything. MSU Rhinos with a Doomsiren sounds nice, but Rhinos drop like flies, and then your 5 man Noise Marine can be ignored. The daemons then eat whatever anti-infantry the list has since they've scattered into little individual pockets. That kind of army provides the threat in neat waves, so all you end up doing is feeding your army to your opponent 500 points at a time.

The point of my style is that you drop everything you have on his doorstep at once, in range and ready to rock.

best troop for csm=chosen followed by plague and slannash

Is removing the 2/3 chance for a marine to make a save vs the bolter wound worth the extra points? Is the ability to have a decent cover save in close combat and when you are out of cover worth that hike in cost?

My main problem with the thousands of sons is that they are just marines with a couple of kinda situational benefits, and some really lame drawbacks. The sorc is suuuuch a tax and the slowness really feels like it hurts them doing their job. GK have the same sort of problems with being just expensive marines when it comes down to it, but they are paying less and in my opinion getting more.

If it weren't for the dumb SNP and if the TZ sorc could have some interesting utility powers I'd be right there with you. I like how the invulnerable save enables them to try to take advantage of their AP3 by moving out of standard cover positions, but they are just so wonky for their big investment.

I credit you for the finding a pretty decent way to make the most of them but I'm not sure it's worth it. I guess someone down in Kelly's team thinks that AP 3 is pretty boss.

Each shot is killing a third of a marine out of cover. If the target is in cover it is more like .21 .

Does sound like a neat way to make a thematic force and use the sweet daemon goodness.

To be honest all you've done is reassure me of something I already know; Tzeentch Daemons are busted. I'm not seeing anything new and great about the Thousand Sons though; they are still slow, overcosted, and only getting attention because AP3 Bolters are apparently very shiny. They need Daemon allies to work, an the fact that they were part of your reasoning shows that you agree whether you realise it or not. As such they are not the best Troop choice, as Cultists, CSM, and Plague Marines all work fine or their own, and Noise Marines need marginal character support to maximise their potential.

 Lucre wrote:

I credit you for the finding a pretty decent way to make the most of them but I'm not sure it's worth it. I guess someone down in Kelly's team thinks that AP 3 is pretty boss.

It's obvious that everyone at Games Workshop thinks this.

TedNugent wrote:

 Lucre wrote:

I credit you for the finding a pretty decent way to make the most of them but I'm not sure it's worth it. I guess someone down in Kelly's team thinks that AP 3 is pretty boss.

It's obvious that everyone at Games Workshop thinks this.

Wonder if they use terrain during playtesting @ GW ...

Unfortunately, I agree with the negativity. Having played Thousand Sons in the old codex (when they were exactly the same, only the sorcerer was more expensive, but could buy an actually useful power) I can attest that against MEQs, they're pretty nice to have. Against hordes...not so much. Gaunts/Boyz do not care that you have AP3 bolters, they only care that you don't have nearly enough bolters and no special weapons. Similarly, they don't care you have 4++, they only care you don't have nearly enough 3+ bodies to soak casualties. Soul Blaze is a bad rule. Being forced to roll on the Tzeentch table without a chance to get the good power is bad.

I rather have Death Guard as my main troop, only str 10 or force weapons can negate the FnP.

I see what you are saying and I agree!

I agree you have some strong logic behind your strat here. Do you have any batreps to show how it turns out?



I Also agree with newspaper/media style headlines to draw in the viewers eye and get them to view your post! I think I'm the only one who understood the point of your thread title from the looks of things

Since you asked for other infiltrating options- 100p of cultists is dead weight, but it can serve as a mighty fine distraction to limit enemy movement and give their army something to focus on whilst you focus on local force concentration. So have 1k sons at position A and cultists at position B, separate them and go for local superiority to crush the enemy around position A before moving on to position B. Hey, if any of the meat survives it can claim an objective

Also infiltrating oblits, since you are keen on infiltrating, are good imo. Basically it gives you a good chance of being able to infiltrate to a position/infiltrate and walk to a position where you can catch MEQ/TEQ out of cover with a plasma cannon, or use their mobility to catch vehicles on side armor (For those who want to jump in and go "oblits aren't mobile they have SNP hnnyaaarrrr it offends my brains!", look for mobile infantry heavy weapons. Look for infantry that can move and shoot lascannons. The angle of your oblits shot isn't where you infiltrate him/them. It's that location+6" in any direction, giving you the capability of catching models OOC with heavy weapons. )

Yes oblits and terminators are the stars of the infiltrating list. You don't lose a turn (or more) like you would deepstriking. And you can place them in good firing positions or in position for a turn 2 assault if they run (terminators).

Thousand Sons are not the most competitive unit in the Chaos Codex. Neither are they bad. They're situational, very useful against MEQ armies, and decent if overpriced against most everything else.

I disagree, only based on being a Nurgle Follower.



:p

I dunno, not only do they pay for their inv. and AP3, but they give up on a few things that are generally the norm: special weapons for one.

As for Ahriman.... 200 is alot for an HQ... esp. in the new age of pretty cheap HQ options for what you get. Huron is a steal for points and gets what you 'need'.

 Jihallah wrote:
I agree you have some strong logic behind your strat here. Do you have any batreps to show how it turns out?... I Also agree with newspaper/media style headlines to draw in the viewers eye and get them to view your post! I think I'm the only one who understood the point of your thread title from the looks of things ...Also infiltrating oblits, since you are keen on infiltrating, are good imo.

I've got a couple reports up of my Nurgle army against Sanct's bikers. I'm afraid you're one of the few. I've tried Infiltrating Oblits and I found it to be redundant. You can't deploy close enough to use your short ranged weapons, and you don't really want to anyway. You can use your Las/Assault/Plas cannons from your deployment zone, and being that far away keeps you safe from lesser weapons. Tzeentch Terminators are probably the way to go.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I'm not seeing anything new and great about the Thousand Sons though; they are still slow, overcosted, and only getting attention because AP3 Bolters are apparently very shiny. They need Daemon allies to work, an the fact that they were part of your reasoning shows that you agree whether you realise it or not. As such they are not the best Troop choice, as Cultists, CSM, and Plague Marines all work fine or their own, and Noise Marines need marginal character support to maximise their potential.

You missed the point. Yes, Thousand Sons might only be good if they have daemon allies, but guess what? They have daemons allies. I don't care who the "best" troops choice is in a vacuum. On the board, with all the factors in play, I think this style of army is the best thing the codex has to offer.

As to hordes, I have an ork horde and my best friend plays swarm 'Nids. Thousand Sons may be only as effective as CSM against Boyz, but that's enough. The orks can't threaten you with more than one mob at a time, simply because there isn't any room in his deployment. Plus, models get pulled from the front now, so the orks are losing inches as well as bodies. Besides all that, you have Flamers, who devour hordes.

DarkHound wrote:You missed the point. Yes, Thousand Sons might only be good if they have daemon allies, but guess what? They have daemons allies. I don't care who the "best" troops choice is in a vacuum. On the board, with all the factors in play, I think this style of army is the best thing the codex has to offer.

No it isn't the best that this Codex offers, because it is leaning mostly on what another Codex offers. In that allied army, the Daemon units are still the driving force, and the Thousand Sons still aren't the optimal choice; it is just a build that can make them worthwhile, but a larger number of regular CSM or Plague Marines will be better.

I played a game against a dedicated thousands sons list with 5 sorcerers (I think) this weekend and tabled my opponent on by the fourth turn. I was using a combination of Ultramarines and Dark Eldar. Yes the AP3 bolters hurt, but I stuck a Librarian in terminator armor in a dev squad, used force dome and null zone to protect my dev squad and severely hamper my opponent's ability to make his invulnerable saves effectively. I used the DE wyches to bog down Arhaman and his buddies, and put blobs of plasma cannon fire on everything else.

My point is, with just 1k sons and no allies, they are too slow moving and to specialized at killing only one type of enemy to be truly effective. With the right psyker you can effectively negate their biggest bonus (the 4++ saves). With other demons in the mix, or maybe some plague marines and some heavy support? That could be a whole other story.

 jetstumpy wrote:
I played a game against a dedicated thousands sons list with 5 sorcerers (I think) this weekend and tabled my opponent on by the fourth turn. I was using a combination of Ultramarines and Dark Eldar. Yes the AP3 bolters hurt, but I stuck a Librarian in terminator armor in a dev squad, used force dome and null zone to protect my dev squad and severely hamper my opponent's ability to make his invulnerable saves effectively. I used the DE wyches to bog down Arhaman and his buddies, and put blobs of plasma cannon fire on everything else.

My point is, with just 1k sons and no allies, they are too slow moving and to specialized at killing only one type of enemy to be truly effective. With the right psyker you can effectively negate their biggest bonus (the 4++ saves). With other demons in the mix, or maybe some plague marines and some heavy support? That could be a whole other story.

Oh, just Thousand Sons? Then it's a really dumb idea. They're a specialized unit, you definitely want to take some soldiers with access to heavy weapons to deal with people Thousand Sons can't deal with.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 jetstumpy wrote:
I played a game against a dedicated thousands sons list with 5 sorcerers (I think) this weekend and tabled my opponent on by the fourth turn. I was using a combination of Ultramarines and Dark Eldar. Yes the AP3 bolters hurt, but I stuck a Librarian in terminator armor in a dev squad, used force dome and null zone to protect my dev squad and severely hamper my opponent's ability to make his invulnerable saves effectively. I used the DE wyches to bog down Arhaman and his buddies, and put blobs of plasma cannon fire on everything else.

My point is, with just 1k sons and no allies, they are too slow moving and to specialized at killing only one type of enemy to be truly effective. With the right psyker you can effectively negate their biggest bonus (the 4++ saves). With other demons in the mix, or maybe some plague marines and some heavy support? That could be a whole other story.

Oh, just Thousand Sons? Then it's a really dumb idea. They're a specialized unit, you definitely want to take some soldiers with access to heavy weapons to deal with people Thousand Sons can't deal with.

Yeah, my opponent used a pretty bad list. Due to their expensive nature, he only had a handful of 1k sons models on the board, in a 2000 point game. He chose to infiltrate most of them, leaving his rhino's behind to take combi-bolter pot shots at my Ironclad Dreadnought. I think he was expecting the invulns and ap3 weapons to wipe me out, but even before I started pulling shennenegins with my Librarian I dropped a fair amount with DL and devastator squad fire.

I have very limited knowledge of Chaos outside of what I see others play, but If he had deep struck some flamers (the demons that shoot ap2 fire templates)
or something that could have tied up my devastators the game would have been much more balanced. His only real heavy support was a forgefiend, but baring a gigantic buff from GW those things are pretty useless IMO.

I'd be very interested in hearing what combinations other people have successfully used 1k Sons in.

My Chaos army hasn't been updated to the new book yet but I used to use small units to sneak Gift of Chaos in since nobody ever knew what it was. My Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerers have killed more Farseers, Grand Masters, and Chapter Masters than a lot of things. It doesn't look like that's going to work in the new book since you can't choose your power anymore, though.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
My Chaos army hasn't been updated to the new book yet but I used to use small units to sneak Gift of Chaos in since nobody ever knew what it was. My Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerers have killed more Farseers, Grand Masters, and Chapter Masters than a lot of things. It doesn't look like that's going to work in the new book since you can't choose your power anymore, though.

Yeah, until they force me too I'm sticking with the codex powers. I hat having to plan my game round a random power selection.

 jetstumpy wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
My Chaos army hasn't been updated to the new book yet but I used to use small units to sneak Gift of Chaos in since nobody ever knew what it was. My Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerers have killed more Farseers, Grand Masters, and Chapter Masters than a lot of things. It doesn't look like that's going to work in the new book since you can't choose your power anymore, though.

Yeah, until they force me too I'm sticking with the codex powers. I hat having to plan my game round a random power selection.

You're in luck. The new codex forces you to. And "Gift of Chaos" doesn't exist any more.

TedNugent wrote:

 Lucre wrote:

I credit you for the finding a pretty decent way to make the most of them but I'm not sure it's worth it. I guess someone down in Kelly's team thinks that AP 3 is pretty boss.

It's obvious that everyone at Games Workshop thinks this.

yes Kelly might not have thought this, but if he didnt he was likely told off by everyone else at GW

Kelly tends to overestimate 5++ and 4++ saves on Mandrades, Tsons, Warptalons, and Possessed are boss, and no frankly that isnt worth 7 points a model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkHound wrote:
I've been running a list which uses Huron's Infiltrate and allied daemons to put an entire army to put the entire army in my opponent's face. I run Nurgle units because of my fluff, but I think this strategy lines up better with Tzeentch. This is due largely to how strong Tzeentch daemons have become. Largely, but not entirely so stick with me.

Infiltrating en masse (which I also did with my horde Orks for a while) doesn't leave your opponent much room to maneuver. They can't do much to stay out of shooting range, but they aren't quite in range to assault. You also usually get better force concentration, since it's also hard to bring their whole army to bear. Unfortunately, the best positions aren't often in cover.

Now, who do we know that doesn't care about cover, hates getting assaulted, and has strong shooting?

Then there's the miracle that is Ahriman. He does both of what you need: gives out Infiltrate and makes Thousand Sons scoring. I don't care what else he brings to the table, I'm willing to spend 200 points on that. The fact that he's pretty strong is just icing on the cake.

By splitting the wave between Flamers and Screamers, you're certain to get some way to crack armor on turn 1. I don't know if Fateweaver would be worth it, but it's an option. My gut tells me to go cheap as possible since the objective is to get Flamers and Screamers on the board.

Taking a step back, one must wonder: why take allied CSM at all? They give you a reliable firebase where otherwise a pure daemon army has to fight as blocks of individuals owing to the whims of scattering. Allied Guard are the only other option, but they can't provide saturation for the daemons since they're basically restricted to their deployment zone. Dark Eldar, Orks, and Tau all have interesting ways of contributing firepower, but Daemons don't have strong scoring units, and desperate allies can't remedy that.

Before I get too focused on Thousand Sons, what other options are there? CSM need to be the primary detachment to use Master of Deception (which is the only way to put hard units next to the daemons when they arrive). It works on any infantry unit in the book, particularly Obliterators, Havocs, Chosen, and Terminators. Oblits and Terminators have stronger CC and access to 4++. They're all good options, but I'm leery of looking outside the Troops section because objectives win games. You're already dipping heavily into FA and Elites to get the daemons, so the few points you spare on troops means that they're forced to be bench warmers. Even 100 points of cultists feels like too much deadweight. Still, if someone can come up with a Huron list that Infiltrates Terminators in a Landraider alongside the daemons, feel free to post about it.

Finally, the army also has to deal with assault. I was hoping you guys could provide the new deathstars and we could come up with ways to hammer them down.

I like where you are going with this but there is a problem. The response to flamers is to start wrapping your good units in chaff. It need not be true bubble wrap but some cheaper marines or better yet guard preventing DSing near good units is becoming more common. This will also prevent you from infiltrating anywhere near good units.
Then you have how terrible Tsons are in assault, but they are fearless and you are going to be faking a big squad so they will stick around losing slowly. So now instead of charging your flamers and taking tons of impact hits decent units will charge your tsons and leave your flamers with nothing to shoot at nearby while they get shot up by longer range units. Taking Daemons as the allies you only have one large unit of flamers anyway so they can be charged by depleted chaff eating their 1 formidable overwatch but then are defenseless when a good unit comes.

Daemons are powerful, but adding infiltrating Tsons doesnt make them that much more powerful. Also the same strat that mitigated flamers mitigates Daemons as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chrysis wrote:

 jetstumpy wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
My Chaos army hasn't been updated to the new book yet but I used to use small units to sneak Gift of Chaos in since nobody ever knew what it was. My Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerers have killed more Farseers, Grand Masters, and Chapter Masters than a lot of things. It doesn't look like that's going to work in the new book since you can't choose your power anymore, though.

Yeah, until they force me too I'm sticking with the codex powers. I hat having to plan my game round a random power selection.

You're in luck. The new codex forces you to. And "Gift of Chaos" doesn't exist any more.

yup the tzeench lore is by far the worst especially for a sorcerer as he has to target what the unit targets. The new gift or boon just makes you kill yourself with a 1/18 chance of becoming a DP.

 Exergy wrote:
Then you have how terrible Tsons are in assault, but they are fearless and you are going to be faking a big squad so they will stick around losing slowly. So now instead of charging your flamers and taking tons of impact hits decent units will charge your tsons and leave your flamers with nothing to shoot at nearby while they get shot up by longer range units.

Never thought of this, very good point.

No it isn't the best that this Codex offers, because it is leaning mostly on what another Codex offers. In that allied army, the Daemon units are still the driving force, and the Thousand Sons still aren't the optimal choice; it is just a build that can make them worthwhile, but a larger number of regular CSM or Plague Marines will be better.

That is the issue. I use CSM as allies to my Daemons. I find that regular CSM can provide me with all that I need.

I want objective holders ...
5 CSM; LasCannon; IoCG - cheap an effective in the back.

I want a midfield presence
10+ CSM w/ plasma

I want a horde
20 CSM w/ icons and weapons of choice

I'm not knocking cult troops but regular CSM are now highly customizable and flexible filling in a lot of holes in any list as allies. I used cultists heavily at the start of the new codex. I still occasionally use one squad but regular CSM seem all round better. I don't need a marked lord for them either. I can also switch my CSM to be the primary detachment just by adding in a few more troops and taking out the useless daemon troops. Icons are great - I can get fearless, extra attacks, better initiative, etc. CSM can take 'nades. Any IC can join them.

 Exergy wrote:

yup the tzeench lore is by far the worst especially for a sorcerer as he has to target what the unit targets. The new gift or boon just makes you kill yourself with a 1/18 chance of becoming a DP.

I think you mean 0/18 chance of becoming a Daemon Prince. Or 1/324 depending on if you interpret the reroll of Daemon Prince results as a reroll (and thus only once) or a prohibition on getting the DP result.

 DarkHound wrote:
Taking a step back, one must wonder: why take allied CSM at all? They give you a reliable firebase where otherwise a pure daemon army has to fight as blocks of individuals owing to the whims of scattering. Allied Guard are the only other option, but they can't provide saturation for the daemons since they're basically restricted to their deployment zone. Dark Eldar, Orks, and Tau all have interesting ways of contributing firepower, but Daemons don't have strong scoring units, and desperate allies can't remedy that.

They give you an overpriced firebase that crumbles at the first sign of close combat. If you're infiltrating them closer, an assault is pretty darn likely to happen. Let's just drop this notion of running a CSM list and take maximum Flamers and Screamers and call it a day.

I like how you guys completely skipped over what nightsorrow said, as Chosen are by far the best possible troop choice in this codex. a base stat of 2A in cc and they come with a pistol and cc weapon, the possibility of taking 5 special weapons. The only other option this customizable in the codex would be the lord or sorcerer, making them fit whatever role you need them to in your army.

2 downsides (if they can be considered as such)
-18 pts for vanilla
-only 10 man squads

in terms of CC and shooting they are actually better than CSM:
13+2+2 (cc, MoK) 17 pts 4A on charge, 2 during subsequent rounds
18pts 4A on charge, 3 during subsequent rounds

1 extra point for 1 extra attack? HECK YEAH

Basically for any list they fill in the gaps but I'd be interested to see how they do in a non abby list

Barrywise wrote:
I like how you guys completely skipped over what nightsorrow said, as Chosen are by far the best possible troop choice in this codex. a base stat of 2A in cc and they come with a pistol and cc weapon, the possibility of taking 5 special weapons. The only other option this customizable in the codex would be the lord or sorcerer, making them fit whatever role you need them to in your army.

2 downsides (if they can be considered as such)
-18 pts for vanilla
-only 10 man squads

You left out the 265pts Abby tax. AbbyWing is a good list if built right, but not optimal, thus Chosen are not the best Troop choice. Plus we are talking about a very specialised aggresive unit. That makes them a better unit than CSM or Plague Marines, but not a better Troop choice. Troop choices have to be efficient and flexible so they can take objectives without using up too many resources.

Remember any cult you take has and hq tax to to turn them into troops and ksons are hard to dig out once they get to where they are going . yes pm can are just as good at this and have more flexible weapon options however mon is more expensive on all other units and will be killed by the same fusilade of fire as ksons aand the icon is just as useless and cost about the same after upgrades so in all actuality the best bet is to take a nurgle lord of some sort and huron and take pms instead because pms have one other advantage they dont leave their blades and pistols at home and epidemus +plague marines and cultists = evil