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Best I could find of the GW Internet Retail Policy:

In July of 2003, Games Workshop issued a change in their distribution policy when ordering directly though Games Workshop or any of their distributors. Online sales are strictly done via Games Workshop's own website to ensure their independent retailers that customers will buy specifically at those locations instead of online. The way this is done is to protect their Intellectual Property (or IP for short).

This includes the following:

Pictures (Codex pictures, models, ect...)
Prices
List of product
Electronic Shopping Cart

Online distribution of their products is strictly enforced by Games Workshop North America. This also includes online retail such as Ebay and Amazon. Games Workshop is pursuing individual accounts who have been using Ebay and Amazon to sell their products online.

The European Union is a different market and branch of Games Workshop entirely and have laws in place governing distribution of products.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The metal figures aren't nearly as important as you might think.

In my earlier calculations regarding the price of basic units, I found that the metal figures were very influential, at least for Space Marine figures. The difference between a 30 USD Tactical Squad (with flamer and missile launcher) and a 50 USD Tactical Squad (with plasma gun and lascannon) is pretty substantial. Admittedly you did often get more figures through these blisters, but the price of, say, two lascannons and two plasma cannons (40 2004 dollars) greatly exceeds the price of one Devastator squad today (35 2013 dollars), which comes with both those bits and more, as well as five extra bodies instead of four!

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Most the functionality of basic sergeants and what not existed in the plastic kits back then. You also had the bits service which allowed you to order a single arm with a plasma pistol as opposed to buying a $10 figure (so you might spend an extra $15-20 on bits for all your special weapons). There are some that are worse - orks for example were designed to entail a fair amount of kitbashing at the time as they didn't even have kits or figures for a lot of their core army units. Harder to make an apples to apples comparison there. However with things like Space Marines - you could take those extra bits...you didn't have to by any means.

I wish GW would bring their bitz service back.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
In terms of doing the number crunching - I have been for a very long time, as have others. Looking at their products as parts of the whole is the only way that you can realistically see how their prices move. From year to year, they might decide to increase all troops by 10% or all vehicles by 10%. However over the course of many years - you end up with the whole of their catalog being increased by 30-50%. Each year the new prices come out - you will have the white knights ride in claiming that they only increased a small portion of the SKUs by the large percentage for that years price hike. The problem of course is that the year before they increased a different portion and next year they will increase a different portion. Looking at prices - this year will probably be like 2004's price hike all over again. Big and everywhere.

How does your theory account for the price of Troops? More Troops straight up decreased in price since Aug. 2004 than increased beyond inflation. It seems to me that GW is attempting to keep the basics cheap while increasing the price of characters, vehicles, and other "centerpiece" or "one-of" units.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Regarding the prices themselves...those are FY2004 prices. That means they are from after July of 2003 and before June of 2004. Most of the links that you have posted have come from FY2005...after July of 2004. That year saw a large price hike at the end of FY2004 (no doubt GW was watching their sales start to slide and figured that higher prices would be a great way to stop that from happening...didn't work so well). It ended up being between 10-25% across the board - so, yes...the numbers you are looking at are probably different...but then again, they wouldn't be FY2004 prices so they should be different.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, the prices I've been using are from Aug. 2004, as I started doing this analysis in late 2012 and wanted to see what things were like 8 years back.

 insaniak wrote:

Barfolomew wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
3) No site can use GW images for the purposes of selling product other than GW.
Nothing wrong with that, the images are GW copyright. If people want to advertise some other product associated with a GW produce they can take a phot for themselves.

I don't think you can even list the GW products, how much they would be and have a cart feature. You have to call the store and get them to take your order over the phone. I also don't think you can take your own photos either. Basically, GW wants their store to be the only store on the internet to order product.

You said that people can't use photos for selling stuff other than GW. Which was what KK said wasn't a problem.

One of those internet things...I understood the intent of the "other than" GW. The other than doesn't refer to the products being sold it refers back to GW, they can use their images - Wayland can't...to sell the exact same product. To restate it with all the words...

No site can use GW images for the purposes of selling product with the exception of GW themselves using GW images.

Words are a funny thing as they can have the same ones in a line...but depending on who reads them, they can be interpreted in a different manner.

Barfolomew wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
3) No site can use GW images for the purposes of selling product other than GW.
Nothing wrong with that, the images are GW copyright. If people want to advertise some other product associated with a GW produce they can take a phot for themselves.

I don't think you can even list the GW products, how much they would be and have a cart feature. You have to call the store and get them to take your order over the phone. I also don't think you can take your own photos either. Basically, GW wants their store to be the only store on the internet to order product.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
13) 6th edition 40K being "beer and popcorn" game
40K has always been a beer and popcorn game. The fundamentals haven't changed since 3rd edition. If anything, 6th edition is more complex than 5th, having re-introduced overwatch.

I take my rules clear, concise and logical. Not the crap that GW puts out.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
18) Shutting down bits
I think that was a sound business decision, especially as they were preparing to move to Finecast.

That's just too funny. Really, finecaste? Finecaste is going to produce good bits when they can't even produce good models? Even if GW intends to fill the gap, the current crap on their website is 1) from OOP models for the most part and 2) still doesn't fill most of the gaps in their product line. The only good thing I see is that price isn't astronomical; though I am sure that will change.

No, the point about Finecast is that it isn't effective for making bits because you can't recycle the materials. The way bits are made is someone puts the mould on the spin casting machine, and runs off a batch of castings. Then he throws away the parts that aren't needed. When they were metals that went back into the furnace to be melted down. Finecast reject parts are just wasted. Given that bits by their nature are the minority of the material in a set of casting, you are wasting a lot of resin.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The metal figures aren't nearly as important as you might think.

In my earlier calculations regarding the price of basic units, I found that the metal figures were very influential, at least for Space Marine figures. The difference between a 30 USD Tactical Squad (with flamer and missile launcher) and a 50 USD Tactical Squad (with plasma gun and lascannon) is pretty substantial. Admittedly you did often get more figures through these blisters, but the price of, say, two lascannons and two plasma cannons (40 2004 dollars) greatly exceeds the price of one Devastator squad today (35 2013 dollars), which comes with both those bits and more, as well as five extra bodies instead of four!

So...just buy Devastator kits back then...

http://web.archive.org/web/20040321064114/http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=Odd&odd=NewLayout&_do=List_Models&code=5095&game=3&database=5&c=5095

$35 for 5 figures, 1 Missile, 1 Lascannon, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Plasma Cannon - plus the Sergeant and some leftovers. Buying singles at $8 per starts to add up - but you buy things in that manner...scatter them throughout your units as needed. Take anything leftover (those were plastic with metal heavy weapons...so you had complete plastic marines if you didn't need something like a Heavy Bolter). They can fill out other fractional units like the Captain's bodyguard and what not. This current plastic set is nice in that it comes with an additional heavy bolter, lascannon and plasma cannon (plus the multi-melta) but functionally it is the same.

On the troops - I might have been off by a FY for their bump - I am going off from foggy memory for the most part on which years had which increases...I have a detailed breakdown, just not handy where I am at, though IIRC the big price surge was FY2005 (which would cover July 2004 through June 2005). Looking at the archive, it looks like the troops had gone up by the end of FY2005.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050421174909/http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=300866&orignav=10&GameNav=10

They definitely increase the costs of things like vehicles and heroes much faster than the troops - but even the troops are outpacing inflation (generally speaking - a notable exception would be those Plaguebearers for example).

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
They definitely increase the costs of things like vehicles and heroes much faster than the troops - but even the troops are outpacing inflation (generally speaking - a notable exception would be those Plaguebearers for example).

My earlier analysis indicates that that is not at all the case-- there are more Troop units that outright decreased in cost (like Wyches) than Troop units that increased beyond inflation from Aug. 2004 to present.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
[They were released at $20 a box, as were warriors. Raiders were $30, and Ravagers $50 (as I recall). Several months later it all jumped up by about 10%, and then it jumped again (by about as much) at some point, and then again, up to $27 for ten wyches and I stopped looking at the prices at that point.

Looks like we were both wrong-- Wyches and Warriors were both 25 USD at release.

That may well be. I could have sworn they were $20 though, because I remember them increasing to $22 just a few months later... I may be remembering discount prices, it's all a bit foggy at the moment. So the increases aren't quite as bad as I remembered, GW is still declining in a thriving industry.

They were 20.00. For 16. additional bits, additional splintercannons, additional options.

Don't tell him that though. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place by a little something called logical fallacy.

Kingsley continues to baffle with bullgak and dazzle with diamonds by looking at the substanard pricing and reduced number of newer models, where they overcharged for plasic and finecrap. Don't let that stop you, though.

To go to thier online support, they had endless information and ample downloads that enhanced, not hindered the game. Thier forums were about on par with what you would expect with thier vision of "How We Want to do it", by catering to the lower denominator, and fanboy " Oh.... your soo kewel..." kind of gak from some kids who figured out how to use a computer.

The painting and modeling articles were not that bad and the conversions, additional missions, and other stuff was at least available without having to fight through a gak load of cookies.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
They definitely increase the costs of things like vehicles and heroes much faster than the troops - but even the troops are outpacing inflation (generally speaking - a notable exception would be those Plaguebearers for example).

My earlier analysis indicates that that is not at all the case-- there are more Troop units that outright decreased in cost (like Wyches) than Troop units that increased beyond inflation from Aug. 2004 to present.

Wyches were an elite - not troops IIRC and they were metal to plastic switch, and again...you are skipping over the FY2005 price hike when you start at that date. FY2004 to now is a nice 10 year period (which makes for simple maths) and it demonstrates quite clearly the increase in the troops as I posted in the other thread. Just because you don't see the sun at night, doesn't mean it isn't there...

I could point to momentary drops to prove that GW isn't actually doing any price hikes (Assault Marines from FY2005 to FY 2006 through to FY 2008) went from $30 for 5 to $25 for 5. They are now up to $33 for 5. That is an increase even though there was a momentary drop.

 Grot 6 wrote:
They were 20.00. For 16. additional bits, additional splintercannons, additional options.

We're talking about the new Dark Eldar, not the old ones. And claiming the old Dark Eldar kits had additional bits and options compared to the new one is not going to get you very far. The new Dark Eldar were loved by practically everyone for a reason.

 Grot 6 wrote:
To go to thier online support, they had endless information and ample downloads that enhanced, not hindered the game. Thier forums were about on par with what you would expect with thier vision of "How We Want to do it", by catering to the lower denominator, and fanboy " Oh.... your soo kewel..." kind of gak from some kids who figured out how to use a computer.

The painting and modeling articles were not that bad and the conversions, additional missions, and other stuff was at least available without having to fight through a gak load of cookies.

Agreed. The old GW website, while substantially less professional, had more interesting content.

Sean_OBrien wrote:Wyches were an elite - not troops IIRC and they were metal to plastic switch, and again...you are skipping over the FY2005 price hike when you start at that date. FY2004 to now is a nice 10 year period (which makes for simple maths) and it demonstrates quite clearly the increase in the troops as I posted in the other thread. Just because you don't see the sun at night, doesn't mean it isn't there...

Wyches were troops if you ran the right HQ (this is what "Wych Cult" refers to) and this option was very popular. As for the specific timing of our comparisons, I think that GW not seriously increasing prices on troops since mid-2004 is fairly meaningful on its own, regardless of what happened prior.

 Banicks wrote:


I was looking at 40k because GW is ultimately my LGS, and there isn't much else unless I go for a 2 hour drive to where other hobby wargames are played.

I hear GW is banning gaming from their stores, so keep that in mind when you consider your 'LGS' and if it should really affect your decision of what to play.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
They definitely increase the costs of things like vehicles and heroes much faster than the troops - but even the troops are outpacing inflation (generally speaking - a notable exception would be those Plaguebearers for example).

My earlier analysis indicates that that is not at all the case-- there are more Troop units that outright decreased in cost (like Wyches) than Troop units that increased beyond inflation from Aug. 2004 to present.

there's simply no way that's true.

Let me amend that: there is no way, barring cherry picking a definition, that that is true. Because even if you look at basic troops, you have the following metal to plastic switches insce the 2004-2005 catalog (the source of prices I have access to):

Scouts (more expediencies in plastic!)
Sniper Scouts (more expediencies in plastic!)
Plague Bearers
Daemonettes
Bloodletters
Horrors
Nurglings (more expediencies in plastic!)
Grey Knight Strike
GK Terminators
Death company (more expensive)
Wyches
Dire Avengers (more expensive)
Guardians (more expensive per model with the platform)
Immortals
Grots
Orks (in practice)

So, even viewing from that angle, six of the sixteen modern troops kits that were plastic in 2004 are more expensive than they were then! Some are close, like scouts, while others are way higher, like nurglings or guardians. That does get better if you want to include stuff like Ravenwing, which are the same price, but worse for Deathwing. And that's not even counting a few close calls, where the plastic kit is clearly superior, such as the grey knight kits. Well, at least superior in options.


Now, looking at the other troops, things have gone in only one direction (although a lot have stayed more less steady)
CSM (now 10 for $37, were 8 for $25) Steady
Chaos Rhino (was $25, now $37.25) Up
DE Warriors (were 16 for $30, now 10 for $29, but so much better it's a wash) N/A
Raider (was $30, now $37) Steady
Rangers (were 6/18 now 5 for $33) Way up
Eldar Jetbikes (12.50 to 15) steady
Cadians (were 20 for $30, now 10 for $29) Way Up
Catachans (were 20 for $30, now 10 for $29) Way UP
Cadian heavy weapon squad (was for $30, now $39.5) Way Up
Catachans heavy weapon squad (was for $30, now $39.5) Way Up
Necron Warriors ($30 to $36) steady
Sisters of Battle (were 3/$9, are now 3 for $17.25)
Tactical Squad ($30 to $37) steady
Rhino ($25 to $37.25) UP
Razorback ($30 to 41.25) Up
Tau FCW ($30 to $36) Steady
Devilfish ($30 to $36) Steady
Kroot ($30 to $36) Steady
Kroot Hounds (2 for $8 to 4 for $24) UP
Krootox ($15 to $24) Way up
Gaunts (were 8 of each for $30, are now 12 of one for $30) N/A
Genesealers (were 12 for $30, are now 8 for $30) Way up
Tyranid Warriors (were$30, are now $47) way up

This list shows that a lot of basic troop stuff has stayed pretty steady, but a lot has jumped way up. More than enough to balance out any savings from stuff going into plastic.

To OP
Why dont we put this to a poll?
If i knew how i would
"Are you currently satisfied with 40k"
Yes
No
Indifferent
Then we should get a better understanding.
Kinda like a petition we could possibly submit to corp GW?
Reason i ask this is im in the same boat as the orig poster. Ive been a whfb player off and on for many years and im just now getting in to 40k. Love the models but hate the price and rules. I like the idea of flyers but not at the expense of the game. I can say ive been upset with fantasy codexs but never the rulebook. I liked the changes in fantasy ( it was easier less cards). Anyway Im reading some pretty negative things on this forum that makes me question "Is 40k dying?" i know not everyone feels this way but what if the majority does

It's never been this bad, GW just doesn't know how to advance into the new era, but don't let that dissuade you from picking up the hobby. I moved form 40k to infinity and I'm about to pick up some Warmachine sets. The hobby of wargaming itself is really strong right now, GW isn't the only one on the block anymore and the hobby doesn't revolve around their products anymore.

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Banicks wrote:


I was looking at 40k because GW is ultimately my LGS, and there isn't much else unless I go for a 2 hour drive to where other hobby wargames are played.

I hear GW is banning gaming from their stores, so keep that in mind when you consider your 'LGS' and if it should really affect your decision of what to play.

Yea I'm starting to have a look into other hobby clubs if that should occur.

I went into GW LGS the other day and directly asked the manager about the email that people are receiving with the intent to halt gaming in GW stores. He claims he has no knowledge of such an email and that nothing official has been released internally regarding that. (For Australia I presume he meant).

That said, he did indicate to me that things change and he can't state in black and white that it won't happen in the future. That statement concerned me like as though he personally felt it might happen. He indicated the reason it might be happening now is due to size of GW retails. I can understand that, some stores only have 2 gaming tables and the rest stock shelves, you can't exactly have a large gaming capability in those. One table would be 40k demo games and the other fantasy. With that said, the GW LGS I go to has plenty of stock shelves and 10 tables, + 3 demos for LotR/Hobbit, Fantasy and 40k. So he said it he couldn't see why they would halt gaming, but couldn't say definitively what would happen in the future.

PS. Has anyone else noticed that GW now charge you 25 cents for a bag? Perhaps this is Australia only? That's a bit much isn't it, considering we already pay 100-150% ontop of the rest of the world, and know they're bleeding us for a bag?

 Howard A Treesong wrote:


GW closed their forums because they were rubbish and full of childish bickering. That, and they can't completely control what people think and say all the time, so it's best to pull the plug on such an outlet.

I think it was (as you mentioned earlier in the comment) because, even back then, pretty crappy looking and disorganised even compared to the other forums of that time.

It was obviously in need of a major refurbishment; GW looked at the costs involved, looked at the type of 'fan input' the site was getting, and thought better of it.

 Banicks wrote:
PS. Has anyone else noticed that GW now charge you 25 cents for a bag?

Aldi and Target also charge you for bags, just off the top of my head. It's something a lot of businesses started doing back when 'green bags' started becoming popular, to discourage plastic bag use.

 Polonius wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
They definitely increase the costs of things like vehicles and heroes much faster than the troops - but even the troops are outpacing inflation (generally speaking - a notable exception would be those Plaguebearers for example).

My earlier analysis indicates that that is not at all the case-- there are more Troop units that outright decreased in cost (like Wyches) than Troop units that increased beyond inflation from Aug. 2004 to present.

there's simply no way that's true.

Here are the prices for the Troops units for every 40k army (format is price (inflation-adjusted price)) compared between August 2004 and now:

Assault Marines (for Blood Angels): 30 USD (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004 (Sergeants with special melee weapons bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per), 33 USD for 5 now, Sergeant special melee options included. (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Space Wolf Grey Hunters/Blood Claws: 30 (36.41) USD for 10 in 2004 (special weapon status unclear), 37.25 USD for 10 now with special weapons and special melee weapons included, plus tons of bitz (comparison unclear, probably increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Scouts with melee weapons: 20 (24.27) USD for 5 including Sergeant in 2004 (heavy bolter bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per): 25 USD for 5 now, heavy bolter included (price increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Scouts with bolters or shotguns: 8 (9.71) USD for 2 in 2004 (heavy bolter bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per), 25 USD for 5 now, heavy bolter included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Scouts with sniper rifles: 8 (9.71) USD for 2 in 2004 (Sergeant bought separately at 7 (8.50) per), 25 USD for 5 now, Sergeant and missile launcher option included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Tactical Marines: 30 (36.41) USD for 10 in 2004 (non-flamer special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 37.25 USD for 10 now with non-flamer special weapons included (price increase or decrease depending on loadout)

Bloodletters of Khorne: 45 (54.61) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Dæmonettes of Slaanesh: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease, but man I liked those old sculpts )
Horrors of Tzeentch: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Plaguebearers of Nurgle: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)

Chaos Space Marines: 25 (30.34) USD for 8 in 2004, 37.25 USD for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Dark Eldar Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004 (special/heavy weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD for one blaster and one shredder or 10 (12.14) USD for two Dark Lances) 29 USD for 10 now with all options included (price increase or inflation-adjusted price decrease depending on loadout)
Dark Eldar Wyches: 30 (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)

Eldar Dire Avengers: 30 (36.41) USD for 8 in 2004, 37.25 for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Eldar Guardians: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004 (heavy weapons platforms bought separately with two crew at 20 (24.27) USD per), 36.25 for 10 now with heavy weapons platform included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Grey Knights: 30 (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004 (special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 33 USD for 5 now with special weapons included (price decrease)
Grey Knight Terminators: 55 (66.75) USD for 5 in 2004 (special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 50 USD for 5 now with special weapons included (price decrease)

Imperial Guard plastics (Cadians, Catachans): 30 (36.41) USD for 20 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase)
Imperial Guard metals (Valhallans, Steel Legion, Vostroyans, Tallarn, Mordians): 35 (42.48) USD for 10 in 2004, 35 USD for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Necron Immortals: 10 (12.14) USD for 1 in 2004, 33 USD for 5 now (price decrease)
Necron Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 12 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 12 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Ork Boyz: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase or decrease depending on loadout, as the new kit has options for special weapons and a Nob)
Gretchin
Gretchin 34 (41.79) USD for 13 in 2004, 16.50 USD for 11 now (price decrease)

Sisters of Battle: 35 (42.48) USD for 10 in 2004, 64 USD for 10 now (price increase)

Tau Fire Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 12 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 12 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Kroot Carnivores: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 16 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Termagants: 30 (36.41) for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 12 now (price increase)
Hormagaunts: 30 (36.41) for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 12 now (price increase)
Genestealers: 30 (36.41) for 12 in 2004, 30 USD for 8 now (price increase)

So overall, we see that of the 29 basic Troops kits, 5 have gone up in price since August 2004, 5 went up or down depending on what loadout you took (and typically went down), 10 went down in price when you account for inflation, and 9 outright decreased in price without accounting for inflation. In other words, 65% of Troops choices have gone down in price since August 2004. Since this comprises 8-9 years of nominal "price increases," it's clear that GW does not hike prices as much as many people think.

You keep repeating it Kingsley but it simply isn't true - Sean did his homework - from a recent thread:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's easy to know what is popular by looking around what people are buying and playing.

Obviously Tau are popular, for example.

Are you going to claim that the really popular models are the few examples that haven't gone up much over the past 10 years, so GW are enjoying huge sales growth?

One example of what's really popular are Troops, because everyone has to have them. Troops haven't gone up much and indeed many have gone down. But the actual specific proportions of Troops kit sales relative to others are very important here, and we don't have that.

Not sure where you are getting the troops staying low from...

If we look at Grey Knights from FY 2004 to now...the basic troop went from 5 for $25 ($5 each) then and 5 for $33 ($6.60) now. +32%
If we look at Necrons from FY 2004 to now...the basic troop went from 12 for $30 ($2.50) then and 12 for $36.25 ($3.02) now. +21%
If we look at Orks from FY2004 to now...the basic Troop is 16 for $30 ($1.88 each) then and 10 for $29 ($2.90) now. +54%
If we look at Tau from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 12 for $30 ($2.50) then and 12 for $36.25 ($3.02) now. +21%
If we look at CSM from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 8 for $30 ($3.75) then to 10 for $37.25 ($3.73) now. -1%
If we look at SM from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 10 for $30 ($3.00) then to 10 for $37.25 ($3.73) now. +24%
If we look at Dark Eldar from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 16 for $30 ($1.88) then to 10 for $29 ($2.90) now. +54%
If we look at Nids from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 12 for $30 ($2.50) then to 8 for $30 ($3.75) now. +50%
If we look at IG from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 20 for $30 ($1.50) then to 10 for $29 ($2.90) now. +93%
If we look at SoB from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 10 for $35 ($3.50) then to 3 for $17.25 ($5.75) now. +64%
If we look at Eldar from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 16 for $30 ($1.88) then to 10 for $36.25 ($3.63) now. +93%

The CSM got a slight down turn - everyone else is up. The change is in the bold at the end of each line. Cliff notes is that close to the rate of inflation is simple bold. Orange is over the rate of inflation but less than double. Red is more the double but less than triple. Bold, Italics, dark red are more than triple the rate of inflation - far and above the regular rate of increase for armies as a whole.

So...troops have gone up. Many of them have gone up a lot. In particular for a guard army which is heavy with troops - they have seen a 93% increase on their troops. Half the armies have seen troop increases that are double the rate of inflation or more.
.

 filbert wrote:
You keep repeating it Kingsley but it simply isn't true - Sean did his homework - from a recent thread

Certainly it is true. Go to the web archive and see for yourself.

 Kingsley wrote:

 filbert wrote:
You keep repeating it Kingsley but it simply isn't true - Sean did his homework - from a recent thread

Certainly it is true. Go to the web archive and see for yourself.

So you refute Sean's analysis then?

 Kingsley wrote:

 filbert wrote:
You keep repeating it Kingsley but it simply isn't true - Sean did his homework - from a recent thread

Certainly it is true. Go to the web archive and see for yourself.

I'll give you this much: if you start the clock right after a major price increase, than price increases siince that time don't look so bad.

it's like arguing that airport security since 2002 has been really effective, or that the housing market hasn't gone down that much since 2009.

Just go back one more click:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040619052501/http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=Odd&odd=NewLayout&_do=Default&code=yes&game=3&database=10

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
I think what you find online is really more representative of the world at large than what you tend to find in local groups (especially if that local group is centered around a GW store).

You may see more online, but that is often just because people tend to congregate with others of similiar views, while online forums tend to draw based on subject matter, and various aspects like economic conditions and local gaming availability do not impact who logs into a forum.

All of that said, the best advice that I can offer to anyone getting into various aspects of the hobby is to not marry into a company and simply buy what you like. Read the fluff you like, buy the miniatures you want in the scale you prefer and game using the rules which suit you best. There are nearly a thousand companies making miniatures in dozens of sizes and scales and well over a hundred different sets of rules to cover everything you can think of from GMed dungeon crawls and skirmishes to planet spanning campaigns featuring combined arms and space battles.

The only thing that restricts people to use GW figures, with GW fluff, GW rules in GW stores is a false idea that you have to. Most rules are flexible enough to change sizes and figures with little problem. Weapons from one system can easily be shited to be 'counts as' weapons from a different system. If the GW fluff is appealing, I recomend you look at FFGs 40k RPG books as they are (IMO) better written and more consistent than the stuff GW has been putting out.

To the OP

I quote Sean here because I think it is the best advice to have. Ultimately, it is your time and money your spending. If you want to get into 40k, I wish you the best of luck and welcome you to the hobby. I recently posted a similar thread where I made an observation about the increase in the negativity, and state my favorable thoughts on GW. You can check it out here, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/519641.page. You'll can see for yourself the responses I get. I have to agree with many of the earlier posters, and I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that the negativity is a Dakka thing. Is GW a perfect company? No but then what company is. Does some of the things GW do warrant criticism? Yes, I have made a few critical remarks. However, I think many threads and remarks have gone past intelligent, logical criticism and gone into hate and bashing. It's because of this spread, shift, increase, or whatever adjective you'd like to use in bitterness and negativity that I think will hurt the community far more than anything GW does. You're opening words are prove of that.

 filbert wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 filbert wrote:
You keep repeating it Kingsley but it simply isn't true - Sean did his homework - from a recent thread

Certainly it is true. Go to the web archive and see for yourself.

So you refute Sean's analysis then?

Sean has pulled prices from a different time, and therefore he draws different conclusions. His analysis is also less in-depth and omits certain elements that mine doesn't. For instance, I look at unit upgrade options and whether or not they are integrated into kits or need to be purchased in blisters, whereas he's omitted this factor. This is why I judge several units as having either increased or decreased in price, depending ont he options selected. In 2004, I could buy a Tactical Squad for slightly less than the price of that squad today-- but I would need to buy a separate metal blister to take a plasma gun, which would end up increasing the price over that of today's Tactical Squad, which comes with that in the box.

I also look at many more units than he does. Overall, my analysis is more comprehensive. That said, that does not mean that Sean is wrong-- I do think he's presented his data misleadingly, however.

And now it is not...

http://web.archive.org/web/20040209142004/http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=Odd&odd=NewLayout&_do=DoRace&game=3

Like I said before, when you start cherry picking or attmpting to prove drops by including all the options and upgrades a unit might take (but often doesnt) you can make it look close. However, you then have to except the issues of units less then full numbers (which happen just as often as you shoe horn an army under a points limit).

If you use full boxes of troops and need all the options...you canshow increases ifmyou start the timeline in FY2005 aftermthe price hike. If you start before the price hike (which is really pertinent when discussing price hikes) and only look at basic troops (as opposed to all the options and special builds)...troops have blown up.

 Polonius wrote:
I'll give you this much: if you start the clock right after a major price increase, than price increases siince that time don't look so bad.

This timing occurred purely by coincidence, since I first did my analysis in late 2012 and wanted to cleanly go back eight years. However, saying "Troop prices haven't really gone up since mid-2004" is still very meaningful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Like I said before, when you start cherry picking or attmpting to prove drops by including all the options and upgrades a unit might take (but often doesnt) you can make it look close.

You heard it here first, guys-- trying to include all the potential options is "cherry picking." That's the opposite of what cherry picking is.

So what's failing to account for a change to a cheaper material?

 Kingsley wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I'll give you this much: if you start the clock right after a major price increase, than price increases siince that time don't look so bad.

This timing occurred purely by coincidence, since I first did my analysis in late 2012 and wanted to cleanly go back eight years. However, saying "Troop prices haven't really gone up since mid-2004" is still very meaningful.

Well, it's meaningful if you're trying to argue that prices haven't gone up. for the record, I don't think its in any way "coincidental." Everything about the way you post shows that you are willing to do a bit of research to find the best facts to fit your case. Which is admirable, in a way. It just makes your conclusions highly suspect.

Prices went up in mid 2004, after staying relatively flat for many years. It was the first major price increase.

Even if you aren't being intentionally misleading, it's sloppy to pick that time, especially when there are very solid reasons to go back two months earlier.

I will agree that including unit options has added value, but don't discount the ease of bitz ordering when coming up with costs for old units. You didn't need a $10 sarge model, you needed a $2 powerfist.

Read the whole post. If you include options then you also need to account for lack of options.

I posted the GK example already. If you need 6 ofmsomething sold in a box of 5...then you are having to buy 4 extra but you need to account for that in you more complex costing. Not doing so is misleading as when you go through various build options...you generally are not using whole box numbers for a pointed army.

That makes your box of 5 for 35 or whatever very pricey way to buy 6 or 7 figures. It is just as valid of a variable for costing as all the options is.

Schmapdi wrote:
There are many ways into the hobby that don't involve GW.

If you enjoy painting/gaming there are many companies worth your time.

QFT. GW is not the end-all, be-all of miniatures gaming, not by a long shot.

GW didnt get me into gaming, and my gaming days wont end with it. My time with 40k was but a small chapter.

Just to illustrate my point even more, lets take a look at something like the CSM Troops. Even under my basic analysis, they went down in price from the old kits. If we look at what their entry is in the Codex (had to get some help on the entry as I hadn't seen this since the old 3rd Edition books) we find that the base unit is now 4 CSM and one Champion.

Looking at the sprues for the new plastic CSM box you get stuff to make 10 regular marines as well as parts to upgrade one of those to a champion as well as special equipment like a banner and icons. You also get 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Flamer, 1 Meltagun and 1 Plasma Gun.

They no longer sell singles of the various special weapons or CSM style weapons through the bits service, so you need to use whole boxes to do load outs. In theory you could claim to be able to buy the SM weapons like Plasma Guns and what not...but we have to draw a line somewhere.

Back to the task at hand, if we build a basic 5 man unit with out plastic box - we are paying $7.45 per figure. Again, using your starting point and your full inflationary adjustment - back in August of 2004...that same unit would have been $5 per figure...or $6.15 with inflation to todays dollars.

If we add one figure to the set, we go to $6.21 per figure now and $4.17 then (with the inflated price being $5.12 per figure) - Win Then.

If we add one more figure to the set, we go to $5.32 now and $3.57 then...adjusted to $4.39 now - Win Then.

One more figure to take us to 8 and we are looking at $4.66 now and $3.12 then...adjusted to $3.84 - Win Then.

Now, we get into a unit size that starts to favor the larger boxes...

One more for 9 total figures in the unit, which drops the $4.14 per figure now and...need more figures then.

Here is where then comes back into its own even with pricier metals. As opposed to buying a complete new box of 8 CSM, I can buy a blister of 2 metal ones for $8. I could also add a single figure like an icon bearer or champion for 10. Since we have gotten into all the special stuff...lets stick with the blister of 2...

...So, we have $25 + $8 for a total of $33 which gets us 10 CSM to play with - enough to build our 9 man unit. Each figure works out to $3.67 then or $4.51 inflated. Just there...the old prices cross the threshold from being cheaper. Lets go ahead and go to 11 (works for Spinal Tap after all) - Win Now.

10 Figures... $3.73 now, $3.30 then - adjusted to $4.06 - Win Now.
11 Figures...need another box of plastic now... $6.77 now...need another blister of two figures... $3.73 adjusted up to $4.58 - Win Then.

So...I think that clearly illustrates the first point of the options of the size of the unit and how that might impact your cost per figure per unit. Yes, you may have two or three units which are partial that allow you to use two boxes more effectively...but that would mean that the army method (which I have also posted) is the better way to analyze price increases...we are looking at the troops in a vacuum right now.

Back to the Codex Entry...

So, we can go up to 20 CSM per unit...we will skip that part.

I think the heavy weapons and stuff was a great consternation for you...so, any one CSM may replace his pistol with a plasma pistol or his boltgun with a Flamer, Meltagun or Plasma Gun.

So, the kit has 2 plasma pistols (enough there) and 1 each of the flamer, meltagun and plasma gun. Good to go there as well - but we have to remember that if you want to start doing math for splitting multiple big boxes into even more little units...you might run out of a needed weapon...

More prices...

So, the prices now will remain the same for a bit (and unfortunately we have to skip on access to the bits service which still existed then)...

5 CSM Unit w/ one Flamer then $7 per figure adjusted to $8.60 - Win Now.
6 CSM Unit w/ one Flamer then $5.83 per figure adjusted to $7.17 - Win Now.
7 CSM Unit w/ one Flamer then $5 per figure adjusted to $6.15 - Win Now.
8 CSM Unit w/ one Flamer then $4.38 per figure adjusted to $5.38 - Win Now.
9 CSM Unit w/ one Flamer then $3.89 per figure adjusted to $4.78 - Win Now.
10 CSM unit w/ one Flamer then $4.30 per figure adjusted to $5.28 - Win Now.
11 CSM unit w/ one Flamer then $3.91 per figure adjusted to $4.81 - Win Then.

How about this one, 11 CSM with one Flamer and one Heavy Bolter? $4.82 then adjusted up to $5.92 - Win Then.

At some point between the older CSM sprues in the 8 man box - they also introduced an accessory sprue for the CSM which had things on it like a heavy bolter, plasma pistol, plasma cannon...don't recall exactly what year it was - but I am thinking it might have been in 2004/2005. That would drop those prices for "Then" even further because you don't have to buy the $10 special figure. Utilizing the bits service would also allow you to drop the prices significantly for those special weapons like the Flamer in the example which was worked through.

As I said with the GK example before this example - there are a lot of variables that go into it - but if you want to attempt to do a detailed analysis of troop prices, then you need to really do a fully detailed analysis of it as opposed to cherry picking what details you want to include from the Codex entry.